SolarKnight
Member
So is there anyone I could get some Luigi or Falcon match up practice from rn?
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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
Nami plays Luigi.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Thanks for testing this. I was going to do it tomorrow (later today), but I probably wouldn't have tried pushing the stick towards the ledge. So I essentially just need to do a quarter circle towards the ledge, and this will initiate the down-B and turn me, right?
MaverickHunterAsh
Member
God, I wish I could retrain myself to use X or Y to jump instead of pushing up on the control stick. I know doing so would raise my skill ceiling quite a bit and make me a better player overall, but I've tried several times to relearn jumping and I just can't. I've been pressing up to jump since Smash 64 and it's absolutely ingrained in my DNA.
But then I see good players effortlessly doing all these short-hop Nairs/Fairs/Bairs and it makes me imagine what could have been.
But then I see good players effortlessly doing all these short-hop Nairs/Fairs/Bairs and it makes me imagine what could have been.
Karsticles
Member
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Normal, should I switch?
NamikazeBurst
Member
I play Luigi and I technically can play Falcon. I can play for a little bit.
Alright, thanks. It sound scary because I die if I fail, and I cannot even perfect pivot.
SolarKnight
Member
Thanks, although first I need my connection to stop being an asshole :|
Karsticles
Member
Why are the results inconsistent? Damage decay?
Stop letting go of the reflector. -_-
Very scary IMO.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
God, I wish I could retrain myself to use X or Y to jump instead of pushing up on the control stick. I know doing so would raise my skill ceiling quite a bit and make me a better player overall, but I've tried several times to relearn jumping and I just can't. I've been pressing up to jump since Smash 64 and it's absolutely ingrained in my DNA.
But then I see good players effortlessly doing all these short-hop Nairs/Fairs/Bairs and it makes me imagine what could have been.
Just turn off up jump and you'll have to learn!
Do you wanna play some games? We can do some mirrors!
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Why are the results inconsistent? Damage decay?
Stop letting go of the reflector. -_-
Very scary IMO.
lol my B.
I have options out of reflect too, so sometimes I sidestep.
Karsticles
Member
How did you die there...
Okay CRQ. Let's break this down.
When the Shadow Ball move is suffering from significant overuse, it seems like I always win the exchange.
Fresh, and at max power, you win.
Fresh, and at 3/4 power, I win.
Used a second time in a row at max power, I win.
Small balls always result in a loss for me.
At some weird character length, about 1/5 of the stage, Fox's Reflector double reflects it back onto himself somehow.
Sometimes, Mewtwo's reflector makes the Shadow Ball pass through him instead of reflect it or get hit
Does that all sound right to you? Give me anything I am missing.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Gotta be AFK for a bit, pardon me.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Alright. Just join my room when you can.
I am able to do it, but it is pretty hard. Not as hard as wavebouncing or perfect pivoting, but still difficult.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Ok here I am. Perhaps it has to do with damage?
Karsticles
Member
Let's try Big Reflector unless you have something else you want to test.
NamikazeBurst
Member
That was a legit win.
MaverickHunterAsh
Member
Just turn off up jump and you'll have to learn!
Do you wanna play some games? We can do some mirrors!
Haha, I have! That's what I mean - I'll turn it off and try to force myself to relearn jumping, but it never clicks because I've just been pressing up to jump for too damn long. I really tried for a good while, too, until I finally came to the conclusion that it just wasn't gonna happen and it wasn't worth the perpetual misery and frustration of genuinely playing like shit while trying to retrain myself.
Either way, I'm regrettably way past the age at which I have enough free time to train for, travel to, and participate in high-level tournaments... so there's honestly no compelling reason for me to make the switch other than to be more competitive here and online. I just wish I'd learned to jump using X or Y to begin with!
I would love to play but I'm currently out working, and it's looking like I might have to pull an all-nighter (I work from home). But if I'm able to take a break later on, I'll be down and I'll post here to see if you're around!
Posting this again since I guess some of you missed it last OT:
It has nothing to do with that Boney. Skull Barrier can only reflect up to 25%, anything more than that will fail to reflect. So Charge Shot does 25% full charged, but fresh bonus makes it go above that. This may also answer your question Karst on why Shadow Ball "goes through other reflectors"
From Thinkaman's writeup on Smashboards: (http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-584#post-19010834)
Reflector + Strong Projectile
No character in any Smash game has ever truly had a strong projectile and a reflector until now. Ness, Mii Gunner, and Villager all have disqualifying traits to their projectiles for purposes of this discussion.) It is a unique combination; something is normally "against the rules." (This is on top of his projectile being both very powerful and very safe, though low damage without charge.)
This means that Mewtwo can force approaches better than almost anyone. Letting him charge up and spam his super-safe 25% KO-ing death ball is a non-starter. Trying to harass him with poke is also a non-starter, though the extent to which reflectors can combat this varies as always.
But not only does Mewtwo uniquely enjoy both of these neutral advantages, he also benefits from the unique dynamic of having both with regards to enemy reflectors.
Mewtwo has a favored sweetspot range where he can throw a Shadow Ball, and Confusion it back if it is reflected! No other character in the game does this with a KO-able projectile, except Villager in very isolated cases with default Timber + Pocket.
Mewtwo's Confusion is a 1.4x multiplier. Many of you know where this is going.
Once a projectile reaches 50% (so for Mewtwo, a 2.0x multiplier), it cannot be reflected again. This means if Shadow Ball is reflected by an ordinary 1.5x reflector, and Mewtwo Confusions it back, it is now at 2.1x and will break any further Reflect attempts.
Taking into account the enemy reflector ratio...
2.1x Fox Amplifying Reflector
2.0x (Dark) Pit Amplifying Orbitars (safe on break)
2.0x Ness F-Smash
1.8x R.O.B. Reflector Arm
1.5x (Dark) Pit Guardian Orbitars (safe on break)
1.5x (Dr.) Mario Cape (default or Gust)
1.5x R.O.B. Rotor Arm (default or Backwards)
1.5x Mii Swordfighter Rainbow Slash
1.4x Fox Reflector (default or Big)
1.4x Mii Gunner Echo Reflector
1.4x Mewtwo Confusion
1.25x Nayru's Love (default or Rejection)
1.2x Falco Reflector
1.2 Mega Man Skull Barrier (can only reflect up to 25% instead of 50%, so moot point)
1.17x Palutena Reflect Barrier
1.0x Falco Accele-Reflector (increases projectile speed significantly)
...Mewtwo can select a strength of Shadow Ball that will allow him to win the ping pong (ideally max 25% where possible.) Consult the following chart:
And of course, it can still be negated/absorbed by the usual suspects:
Ness PSI Magnet (default or Forward)
Mr. G&W Oil Panic
Falco Reflector Void
Rosalina Gravitation Pull or Guardian Luma
Villager Pocket (all)
Pocket resets the multiplier to 1.9x. Villager can always Pocket Shadow Ball, but you can always reflect it back.
Mii Gunner Absorbing Vortex
In other words, Mewtwo is uniquely well equipped to fight Mario, R.O.B., default (Dark) Pit, and default Palutena at range.
Karsticles
Member
I don't understand.
Does Reflector have an overuse indicator like other moves? Does it affect its ability to reflect?
Does Reflector have an overuse indicator like other moves? Does it affect its ability to reflect?
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
It feels like at some point it just fails.
Big Reflector weakens reflected projectiles, so that explains why it can reflect longer but at some point it stops working.
Edit: dat chart tho
Big Reflector weakens reflected projectiles, so that explains why it can reflect longer but at some point it stops working.
Edit: dat chart tho
SolarKnight
Member
Yeeeeeeeah that up B close to the blast zone was a horrible mistake of yours
Karsticles
Member
I know all this, but look at our results. Some weird stuff is happening. It also doesn't tell me how move decay factors in.
Also, how does the math work?
Shadow Ball does 25% damage.
I throw it.
CRQ uses Big Reflector.
The move just hit for 31%.
That isn't a 1.4x damage bonus. More like 1.1.
NamikazeBurst
Member
I thought you footstooled me so I up-B'd by instinct, and then I actually saw me super high.
Move decay works as normal, but once a projectile reaches over 50% damage after being reflected, it cannot be reflected again. So this is why different sizes reach the threshold at different times.
I'm not sure about how reflectors work if they get staled after using them over and over or why Fox can double reflect.
It also might be affected by like how Mario/Luigi's fireballs do less damage the farther they travel.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
Hey no problem! We'll play some other time!
Anyone else up to play? I could go for teams too!
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
If you want me to try Falco's reflectors I can do that too, Karst.
Karsticles
Member
Did the game just tack on a few extra % there after I was floating back to the stage?
Why did your reflector send it back for 55% instead of 52% one time? Does the reflector have a "sweet spot"?
There is something weird going on here, though. Might be Shadow Ball.
Why did your reflector send it back for 55% instead of 52% one time? Does the reflector have a "sweet spot"?
Reflector doesn't seem to stale.
There is something weird going on here, though. Might be Shadow Ball.
Just his default, please.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Oh, and Big Reflector's multiplier is lower than regular Reflector. Shouldn't change damage by a big amount, it's supposed to be like x1.1.
Wyndstryker
Member
That chart makes sense since at optimum range, Zelda's Nayru's Love can do two reflects if the timing is right. Mewtwo can't do a reflect back after a 2nd bounce from Zelda.
NamikazeBurst
Member
You're way too reliant on that custom up-B. I will switch to Falcon now.
SolarKnight
Member
I'm feeling the default lasers work better in this match up. Not clashing with Luigi's fireballs let's me get free damage if you spam them.also I really need to tech more =.=
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Are there specific timings you want, Karst? I try to change it depending on how far you are from me.
Karsticles
Member
I am trying to figure out two things:
1) If there is a point I can reflect, but that you can't re-reflect due to recovery on the first move. You miss sometimes, so it is hard to tell. Can you guide me to figuring this out?
2) How that crazy multi-reflect into death keeps happening. I have a hypothesis I am working out.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Depends on the timings really. If I catch it when I toss it out, it hits me on the rebound due to how long your reflect hitbox can stay out, I believe. I can try reflecting it with the reflector coming back to me, though it's tough to pull off that timing on an already reflected projectile.
I think the multi-reflect kill has to do with reflect hitbox shenanigans, and the way Falco's reflector travels.
Karsticles
Member
Multi-reflect happened with Fox, too.
Can we experiment with Mario and Zelda for multi-reflect? I want to test my hypothesis. I think it is due to Mewtwo, not the other player.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Hmm...
I'll start off with Mario. I don't know if there are reflecting differences with his and Doc's cape though.
Karsticles
Member
Let's try both.
Fox and Falco speed up projectiles they reflect,right?
Mario doesn't seem to speed them up.
Confirm my observations?
We need someone else who speeds up reflected projectiles.
Palutena, Dr. Mario, and Zelda?
Pit, Dark Pit, Rob, and Mewtwo as well, if you don't mind.
Just testing my multireflect hypothesis.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Karsticles
Member
Yes, Ness and:
Palutena, Zelda, Pit, Dark Pit, Rob, and Mewtwo as well, if you don't mind.
Just testing for multireflect, so 2-3 Shadow Balls each if you don't miss it.
SolarKnight
Member
...What just happened?
NamikazeBurst
Member
Customs are what happened.
SolarKnight
Member
GGs, my mother's gonna kill me if I don't go to bed rn :|
I'm not sure that was it on that second stock
I'm not sure that was it on that second stock
NamikazeBurst
Member
GGs. I am surprised I did so well with Captain Falcon, because I don't play him. My Luigi is a bit rusty, and I feel like Fox has a good time against him.
Does your up-B have a windbox of some sort? I don't know why I went way under the stage.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I'm not Shamrock, I'm just saying. :/
SolarKnight
Member
Not really, the only up B with a windbox I can remember is the Pits' custom one. I'm guessing stage spiking/knockback angle shenanigans.
Anyways, thanks, I learned a couple of things that are hopefully useful tomorrow in the weeklies.
Karsticles
Member
Lol. Thank you for helping. I think my hypothesis is confirmed.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Nikki has a tiny pink reflector and it's cute :3
Edit: That's everyone correct?
Edit: That's everyone correct?