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[AdventureRacing]

Why wouldn't she be.

Please note before answering.

Falco and Wolf.

You may answer.

Falco and Wolf are both far more memorable characters than Ashley and in general are better known. They're also clones and were easily put into the game. I just don't see what specifically about Ashley would make her stand out enough in her game to be included in smash brothers. I wouldn't really care but there are better options imo.

 

[icy_eagle]

We're trying to point out that she isn't a minor character. She's one of the main characters in the Wario Ware series. In regards to the games Ashley stars in she is a more major character than Rosalina is to the games she stars in.

She absolutely is a minor character in that she's of no more importance than any of the other WarioWare characters. Nevermind that she wasn't even introduced until the third WarioWare game. Why would she take preference over, Jimmy T, Mona, 9-Volt, Orbulon or Dr. Crygor? edit: (and Kat & Ana, Dribble & Spitz, but they're 'double characters' as i were, so w/e)

And regardless of how likely she ever could have been, people's reaction to her not being a playable are absolutely over the top.

 

[Exotoro]

She absolutely is a minor character in that she's of no more importance than any of the other WarioWare characters. Nevermind that she wasn't even introduced until the third WarioWare game. Why would she take preference over, Jimmy T, Mona, 9-Volt, Orbulon or Dr. Crygor?

And regardless of how likely she ever could have been, people's reaction to her not being a playable are absolutely over the top.

a cherry picked selection of people

 

[foxuzamaki]

You guys are confusing me with what to defend here, stahp.

 

[Red Arremer]

Falco and Wolf are both far more memorable characters than Ashley and in general are better known. They're also clones and were easily put into the game.

Yes. The fact that Wolf's entire moveset is basically completely different from Fox's, and even the "cloney" specials having significant visual and mechanical differences made him really easy to put into the game. Totally less resources used for Wolf than for other characters.

 

[Axiology]

When it comes to the "viability" of Ashley's place as a playable character in Smash I think a few things have to be considered here. No matter the amount of games its had, the WarioWare series has never really been considered as one of Nintendo's big, landmark franchises. Even Star Fox and F-Zero have that over it, considering their age (and I laugh at this idea that Falco and Wolf are so obviously on a lower rung than Ashley). It's a small, mostly handheld-focused series that focuses on a series of fun minigames, and when you add up the appeal of the series, its characters fall far behind the microgames themselves. When people say she's a "side character from a c-tier series", what they're really saying is she's one of many characters in the series whose "stories" are only several second long bookends that serve as a pretense for their microgames. Obviously a series' popularity isn't the only basis that Sakurai uses to decide which characters to put in (yes, I know about Ice Climbers), but it might influence where he looks. It makes a lot of sense to me that he would look at the WarioWare roster and go "those would be some great assist trophies!" over considering them for characters, no matter how much I like those characters.

All that's not really that important in comparison to the fact that not only is Wario Ware not a huge series in the scope of Nintendo's universe, but that Ashley is one of a large ensemble of characters. I'm struggling to see what brings Ashley so far above her fellow WarioWare characters besides a cool design and some Internet fandom. WarioWare features a huge cast of characters whose personalities are very distinct and expressive, but are only featured for seconds at a time. Why Ashley over 9-Volt, Mona, Kat & Ana, Orbulon, Jimmy, etc etc? And when it comes to each of those names, why them over Ashley? I really can't imagine any thought process that would lead Sakurai to pull any one WarioWare character out of the game and say "yes, you will be this series' representation." Even within WarioWare itself Wario's personality overshadows everyone else's pretty significantly.
I could even see him doing that for someone like Samurai Goroh over a character from WarioWare, and I don't think he's got a chance in hell.

As for Ashley being "more important" than Rosalina, come on son. I'm not gonna go all "Rosalina is the greatest character of our age" here, but Super Mario Galaxy makes WarioWare a D-list series. For better or worse, Rosalina was always going to have a much better chance than most other characters out there.

 

[icy_eagle]

a cherry picked selection of people

Thanks for the unneeded semantics

a cherry picked selection of people's reaction to her not being a playable are absolutely over the top.

Yes. The fact that Wolf's entire moveset is basically completely different from Fox's, and even the "cloney" specials having significant visual and mechanical differences made him really easy to put into the game. Totally less resources used for Wolf than for other characters.

Yeah, lol. Can't believe there are some still saying this, what, 5 years after release? Wolf shares at most a single animation with the other 2 space animals, side-b. And Brawl's Falco had the majority of his moveset changed to be different from Fox's

 

[AdventureRacing]

Yes. The fact that Wolf's entire moveset is basically completely different from Fox's, and even the "cloney" specials having significant visual and mechanical differences made him really easy to put into the game. Totally less resources used for Wolf than for other characters.

He was still based off a very similar template. I have no doubt that it was a lot easier making wolf then a completely new character. Especially when you consider that for Ashley they would basically have to come up with an entirely new moveset as you don't really control her in wario ware.

That was only one reason as well.

 

[BGBW]

Fact of the matter is, Falco and Wolf are two incredibly important characters in what used to be one of Nintendo's big franchises. Sure, it's been a while since we've had a game, but let's not forget that Fox's inclusion in Smash had included each of the three games, and he was among the first characters to be shown for SSB4.

Wario joined Smash with Brawl. WarioWare does not have a legacy or importance like Star Fox does.

Well the first Smash was made for the Nintendo 64 when Star Fox was at the height of its popularity and it makes sense to continue to keep Fox. Falco being a clone in Melee I can understand as well, but the addition of Wolf in Brawl is when arguments of importance and popularity get thrown out the window. It is clear there isn't really a set criteria for fighters in Brawl so much like arguing why Wolf deserves to be in it has as much bearing as for why Ashley shouldn't.

I don't really know how one measures importances, but Wario Land dates back to 1994 so I'd say it has a fair legacy.

She absolutely is a minor character in that she's of no more importance than any of the other WarioWare characters. Nevermind that she wasn't even introduced until the third WarioWare game. Why would she take preference over, Jimmy T, Mona, 9-Volt, Orbulon or Dr. Crygor?

So everyone in Wario Ware is a minor character? Nope. The Space Rabbits are an example of an actual minor character in the games.

Is the idea that 1. people felt Wario deserves a second rep and 2. they like Ashley really that hard to comprehend?

I should note I've always been a supporter of Jimmy T being the second Wario rep.

 

[Fiktion]

Man, I love Wolf. When I was young and playing Star Fox 64 and came to the part where Star Wolf was a thing I laughed my ass off. One of my most memorable early gaming memories.

His theme song is awesome too.

 

[Kyzer]

Wolf is a pretty important starfox character man.

 

[Axiology]

Wolf is a far bigger character than Ashley. He's Fox's arch-nemesis.
Without his relation to Fox I could see the argument, but I'd say his inclusion actually makes as much, if not more, sense than Falco's

It's not like we're talking about Pigma or some shit XD

Edit: Eh, K. Rool is a weird one. I got nothing against the guy, but it's really easy to look at him as mostly a "Rare" kind of thing, even moreso than (most of) the rest of the Kongs. I'm not hating or anything, but I find it hard to believe that people love him for much more than "he's the bad guy in Donkey Kong's games."

Outside of his rapping abilities, of course.

 

[foxuzamaki]

wolf is fox's rival to a T, he kinda deserves to be in smash, just like every main character in smash should also have their rival/bad guy in, which is why I find it weird how people dont want DK's main bad guy, king K rool in.

 

[Fiktion]

Instead of Landmaster, Wolf's Final Smash should be Ridley.

 

[friskykillface]

king k rool taking a L he's suppose to be in that big character pic

 

[TheCongressman1]

Instead of Landmaster, Wolf's Final Smash should be Ridley.

That's fine.



Nah.

 

[AdventureRacing]

wolf is fox's rival to a T, he kinda deserves to be in smash, just like every main character in smash should also have their rival/bad guy in, which is why I find it weird how people dont want DK's main bad guy, king K rool in.

I'm a big fan of the original DKC but to me king K rool was a tiny part of that game. I don't really see him as a rival do donkey kong at all. I know technically he is but it never felt that way when i played it and i certainly don't think of him when i remember DKC.

That plus i don't think he's very interesting at all. His design isn't that interesting (to me) and unlikely wolf he doesn't have any real dialouge to make me care. His just the last boss in DKC to me.

 

[Banjoman]

if people really want another wario rep, it should be Captain Syrup, and not some minor character.

 

[qq more]

holy shit guys lol


wolf is far more iconic than freakin ashley

 

[Red Arremer]

He was still based off a very similar template. I have no doubt that it was a lot easier making wolf then a completely new character. Especially when you consider that for Ashley they would basically have to come up with an entirely new moveset as you don't really control her in wario ware.

Have you even looked at Wolf's entire moveset? Literally every single move that Wolf uses that isn't a special is completely 100% different. If the character wasn't a space animal but instead, say, a human martial artist using a claw weapon, people would never ever dare to say that the "template was the same". Even if that character had mechanically similar side specials (because really, you could easily make Wolf's specials into a "generic martial artist using chi" powerset), people would never say he was a clone.
It's literally only because he has a tail, uses a laser gun and drives a tank as his final smash.

Case in point: A lot of people think Lucario is a clone of Mewtwo because both are Pokemon, floaty and use a charging ball projectile.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Assists updated.

 

[BGBW]

Just to be picky, but isn't Andross technically the big bad of Star Fox? Guess how he got in? As an assist trophy.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Wario Ware is a minor game series which is a spinoff of Wario Land, which is a spinoff of Mario. That doesn't mean it's not good, or that you shouldn't like it, but don't expect it to have a full roster in Smash.

 

[qq more]

Just to be picky, but isn't Andross technically the big bad of Star Fox?

He's pretty much is. Problem is that he's just a huge floating head, so it's hard to make a fighter out of that. That's why he is AT or Boss-tier at best.

Actually, he would probably make a very cool boss fight, complete with voice acting from SF64...

 

[Axiology]

Andross is the Emperor to Wolf's Vader

 

[TheCongressman1]

He's pretty much is. Problem is that he's just a huge floating head, so it's hard to make a fighter out of that. That's why he is AT or Boss-tier at best.

Actually, he would probably make a very cool boss fight, complete with voice acting from SF64...

That would be really cool.

That reminds me, I hope boss fights work better than they did in Brawl.

 

[Übermatik]

Why wouldn't she be.

Please note before answering.

Falco and Wolf.

You may answer.

Falco and Wolf are both notable characters in a longer running, well established and independent series. Ashley is a minor character in a couple of mini game compilations that are a spinoff of yet another minor series of games that have never been as revered or noted as the aforementioned StarFox. She first appeared in 2004 in Touched, versus Falco Lombardi appearing in 1993, and then continuously in each StarFox game thereafter...

 

[Red Arremer]

Just to be picky, but isn't Andross technically the big bad of Star Fox? Guess how he got in? As an assist trophy.

Yes, he's the main villain of the series. But it would also be very difficult to make him a proper fighter since he's a huge head with floating hands, hence in an earlier post I said that Wolf "is the villain of the series most fit for Smash".

 

[qq more]

That would be really cool.

That reminds me, I hope boss fights work better than they did in Brawl.

The boss fights were cool but I felt it was underused (guess due to how already bloated SSE was lol) because it didn't have enough Nintendo bosses.

There was um...
Petey Piranha
Rayquaza
Porky
Ridley/Meta Ridley

...Yeahhhh. Weird how only 4 franchises had bosses lol

 

[BGBW]

Wario Ware is a minor game series which is a spinoff of Wario Land, which is a spinoff of Mario. That doesn't mean it's not good, or that you shouldn't like it, but don't expect it to have a full roster in Smash.

Wario Ware has become its own thing really. It doesn't even make many references to the Mario universe apart from Wario having a few "I'm better than Mario" microgames. Even Wario himeself was given a new outfit to distance it from the Land games. Obviously I can't argue against its origin being a spinoff but after so many games within its own universe I feel it deserves to be treated as its own stand alone series.

Basically no matter what the main Mario games do Wario Ware will always do its own thing.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Have you even looked at Wolf's entire moveset? Literally every single move that Wolf uses that isn't a special is completely 100% different. If the character wasn't a space animal but instead, say, a human martial artist using a claw weapon, people would never ever dare to say that the "template was the same". Even if that character had mechanically similar side specials (because really, you could easily make Wolf's specials into a "generic martial artist using chi" powerset), people would never say he was a clone.
It's literally only because he has a tail, uses a laser gun and drives a tank as his final smash.

They're both a similar size character with a similar fighting style and a very similar recovery move (and yes both use a gun for a weapon). The moves are different but to me at their core they are very similar to wolf and falco. With Ashley they would have to come up with something completely new. She isn't even a useable character really. They would have to make up an entirely new fighting style like what they did with game and watch and falcon. I don't think that's worth it for a minor character like Ashley.

 

[Azure J]

For the new page. I love that they went the extra mile and translated the Japanese reactions.

Oh man, I'm both laughing and having the weirdest "d'aww" at that one Japanese poster asking about if she's popular over here in the west. It just feels so genuine. :lol

Those Ashley reactions are crazy. For a side character in one of Nintendo's C-tier franchises, you'd think they'd just be happy she made the game. Like Ridley.

Some of these reactions are just damn horrible. Why the fuck are all of these people expecting SUPPORT CHARACTERS to be playable? These characters are perfect for assists yet they still insist on whining? It's like they want a high class mugen game or something.

As much as this whole comparing significance chapter of SmashGAF is fucking hilarious *, you guys are the worst. News Flash: Smash has reached the point where every heavy hitter is accounted for (and if it hasn't it definitely will after 4). It's totally OK for Sakurai and crew to pick up either people lost in the back of the Nintendo Vault, extras that make sense alongside power hitters currently in the roster, or decently charming/unusual/interesting people from various franchise incarnations.

I swear, stuff like this is the reason I'm glad Sakurai's in charge of that aspect of development, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten hype as shit for some wobbles at EVO because "what the absolute fuck is a Ice Climber?"

*

Spoiler

No seriously guys, how could you think comparing a side character in a spin off series whose primary job is advertising a set of minigames within the collection be as important as the co-pilot and rival in another franchise?

 

[Red Arremer]

They're both a similar size character with a similar fighting style

So Captain Falcon (by default Ganondorf since he's a Falcon clone) and Wario also are Fox clones? I guess that also would make Mario and Luigi Fox clones, since they're all similar size and use hand-to-hand combat as their fighting style.

Wolf is as much of a Fox clone as, in Street Fighter, Dhalsim is a Ryu clone. Oh, both have fireballs, they're obviously using the same fighting style.

and a very similar recovery move (and yes both use a gun for a weapon).

I will bring up Link and Samus again.
Up B: Spinny recovery move
Side B: Projectile
B: Chargeable projectile
Down B: Bomb that also can be used as recovery
Plus tether grab.

Obviously, Samus is a Link clone.

The moves are different but to me at their core they are very similar to wolf and falco.

So you're saying that the moves are completely different, but to you still the same.

With Ashley they would have to come up with something completely new.

They could make her a Peach or Zelda clone, just smaller and perhaps utilizing her wand or Red in some moves.

 

[SmithnCo]

For the new page. I love that they went the extra mile and translated the Japanese reactions.

lol. I'm surprised people are surprised a Warioware character isn't playable. That was always a huge long shot.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Bargaining!

 

[Azure J]

Bargaining!

Remember a few months ago on Twitter when I was all like "retreat to SmashGAF" when general Gaming GAF got to be too much?

welp--

 

[Axiology]

Guys, I don't think Andross has any chance. Look at how big he is...

 

[BGBW]

Remember a few months ago when I was all like "retreat to SmashGAF" when general Gaming GAF got to be too much on Twitter?

welp--

Short messages with hashtags? I don't see any of that happening here.

 

[AdventureRacing]

So Captain Falcon (by default Ganondorf since he's a Falcon clone) and Wario also are Fox clones? I guess that also would make Mario and Luigi Fox clones, since they're all similar size and use hand-to-hand combat as their fighting style.

None of those characters are similar in propertions to wolf and fox. If you changed the head on wolfs body and gave him different clothes he would basically be fox. The same can't be said of those other characters. Also it goes further than just using hand to hand combat. Their fighting style is damn near the same, the characters you list are completely different.

I will bring up Link and Samus again.

I'm not really going into this. Link and samus look and play totally differently.

So you're saying that the moves are completely different, but to you still the same.

No i'm saying they are slightly different but still very similar. It's very easy to see that they based wolf around fox and then made changes from there to make him different.

Honestly i don't think there is any point continuing here. If you honestly believe that link and samus are as similar as wolf and fox or that any of the above characters are as similar as wolf is to fox then there is nowhere else to go. I just completely disagree with everything you have said and i don't think we're going to get anywhere.

They could make her a Peach or Zelda clone, just smaller and perhaps utilizing her wand or Red in some moves.

Characters who aren't even in her own franchise. That plus as a character you don't even use her. With wolf it makes sense why he would play just like the other very similar wolf character from the same franchise. It doesn't make sense for Ashley to play like peach or zelda. Why would you even want her in the game if that's how it's done?

Just like i hate the fact that ganondorf is a clone of falcon. He deserves to have his own moveset. The only time clones really make sense to me is when characters are extremely similar and actually from the same franchise (or very similar playing franchise at the least).

 

[TheCongressman1]

I don't like clones, especially Captain F and Ganondorf. Being in the same universe isn't a great excuse, but at least that makes a little sense.

 

[mclem]

I think this topic has resulted in some confusion. It seems people think those arguing why Ashley could have been a reasonable prediction for a fighter are upset that she is only an assist. This isn't the case, we are simply explaining why people may have had this thought.

Independent of *everything* else, if there was to be a Wario Ware playable character, I can't help but think that Mona would be a better fit. Maybe 9-Volt at a pinch, but that might be a layer too meta for Smash. Mona actually has an 'action' identity, too - majorette, pizza delivery, distaff counterpart to Wario.

 

[Red Rudolph]

The funniest part of the whole ordeal is that I don't think there would have been nearly this level of outrage if the game had just come out without any mention of Ashley whatsoever. But here we are.

This used to be such a nice place.

 

[The Bankslammer]

i dunno guys ashley must be a pretty important nintendo character if we're still talking about this

 

[AdventureRacing]

I don't like clones, especially Captain F and Ganondorf. Being in the same universe isn't a great excuse, but at least that makes a little sense.

I don't like clones at all but i can at least see why they would do it with someone like wolf, falco and fox (i mean they are pretty similar so it's kinda expected). Ganondorf i hate. Zelda is one of nintendos most iconic franchises and ganondorf is probably nintendos most iconic villains besides bowser. Surely he deserves a moveset of his own, it wouldn't have been hard to come up with one.

Making him a clone of a falcon makes no sense to me. Falcon himself had to have an entirely made up moveset because he's just a racecar driver.Ganondorf has appeared in many games and has plenty of moves you could have actually used to make his character.

It's a shame because smash could use more quality villains to play.

 

[Übermatik]

Assist trophies I want to see:

Battalion Wars troops and tanks.
Chibi Robo
Chocobo
Pacman Ghosts
Chargin' Chucks
Redeads
Nintencats
Lakitu

 

[Red Arremer]

None of those characters are similar in propertions to wolf and fox. If you changed the head on wolfs body and gave him different clothes he would basically be fox. The same can't be said of those other characters. Also it goes further than just using hand to hand combat. Their fighting style is damn near the same, the characters you list are completely different.

Their fighting style is -completely different-, mang.
Fox uses martial arts - kicks and punches.
Wolf uses claws. He also has some kicks, granted, but that's where the similarities end.

Do you want me to make a move by move comparison for you?

 

[TheCongressman1]

If they were to rework Ganondorf or Captain Falcons movesets, which one should be overhauled?

I'd have to go with Ganondorf. His moves never seemed fitting to me. He could use a sword I think.


Edit: I don't think anyone would choose Falcon, but you know.

 

[mclem]

Wolf is a far bigger character than Ashley. He's Fox's arch-nemesis.

Actually, as an aside, there, I can't help but feel that the roster could do with a villainous counterpart to Samus. Don't worry, I'm not saying Ridley as such, but it feels like a bit of a hole when other major series tend to have representation from both heroes and villains. A space pirate would be disappointingly generic, though, and Dark Samus would probably get derided as a clone. One of the Hunters?

 

[IntelliHeath]

The funniest part of the whole ordeal is that I don't think there would have been nearly this level of outrage if the game had just come out without any mention of Ashley whatsoever. But here we are.

This used to be such a nice place.

Indeed, but I'm pretty sure that in few days, it will be a nice place again. I hope.

 

[Azure J]

If they were to rework Ganondorf or Captain Falcons movesets, which one should be overhauled?

I'd have to go with Ganondorf. His moves never seemed fitting to me. He could use a sword I think.

Ganondorf gets my vote most definitely. Dude needs more magic. Maybe his bitchin' Windwaker swords too. Keep the Flame Choke (Side B) and Thunderstomp (Down Air) though, those totally fit him.