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The Atlantic: 'The Real Reasons for Marvel Comics’ Woes'

I started getting into comics about 2 years ago now. I tried to get into some of the marvel and DC stuff, and while some of the older backlog was great (The Long Halloween, All Star Superman), the current stuff was too hard to follow, so I gave up.

Most the stuff I buy is trades from either older Vertigo titles in catching up on or published by Image, or Boom.

The only single issues in buying at this point are Saga, Southern Bastards, Paper Girls, and Giant Days. Not a single marvel or dc title among them.
 
Well, that sucks to hear.

I never read comics as a kid, but I've started to follow some thanks to Google Play, Kindle and Comixology sales. I tend to steer clear of 'mainstream' ones though and opt for things like Southern Cross, Nowhere Men, Prophet, The Activity and Invisible Republic.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Marvels marketing is basically, change a character 99.9% of the time for a non storyline reason and have blogs berate long time readers with weeks of "Suck it fat white male virgins, Spider Man is now a lesbian Yugoslavian trans woman!" while the writer makes fun of you on twitter and then be unable to figure out why no one wants to spend 5$ a pop on it.

Yeah, that's not a thing that happened.

Interesting post though, somewhat offensive, but interesting.
 

IrishNinja

Member
-Saga Saga Saga
-Read Indies
-Read Manga
-I don't read comics because I'm so cool
-Stop putting politics in my books
-Stop putting diversity in my books, I want the same shit.

Like clockwork.

seriously, you could do a bingo card with these threads - it never fails

Superhero comics should be structured like manga, instead of constant reboots with revolving artists and writers, let a single team work on one captain america story for 5 years that has a clear beginning and end. Also, get rid of the canon. Let writers be able to do whatever they want with their story without having to worry about years of universe building.

like this post, its half good and half terrible
i like the idea of only running a book when a team has material, but franchise characters won't see that model sadly
but getting rid of cannon entirely is a great way to shit on longtime readers, we already have enough reluanches/etc and older or alternate stories get told constantly as well

Comic book stores are a factor.
Ideally, floppies (I'll be referring to the 22 page comic as a floppy) should be $.99 digitally, but this would hurt store sales.

direct-to-market retail is something that i love but has held the medium back for well over a decade now

By the way, it's not just Gwen Pool. I remember reading Peter David's X-Factor run and seeing the regular artist (who was really good once!) produce work that looked as if he held the pencil in the crook of his elbow. And Grant Morrison's X-Men run was completely potholed by a good number of issues where the art was atrocious or worse.

Corben's art was rushed to hell & back and looked awful there, even if the book was fantastic (heh)
but i'm happy to see someone else pointing out how amazingly shit some of the later art was for that otherwise great X-Factor run: like, it was impressively terrible, out of nowhere. that kinda shit makes me hesitant to buy an omnibus, personally.

That was "Jude Terror", so I approve.

yeah i'm gonna side with Waid on most things like this

And with all the blame on diversity, it's no wonder that the MCU film studio only features super white guys as leads for like 17x consecutive blockbusters.

they walked that one douche's thing on diversity back pretty quick i thought, and Panther is gonna be something most studios are still too scared to do

Yeah, I really liked the ending there - where Sam talks about how as he got older he got quieter, and more willing to compromise, and how young guys like Rage pushing the envelope is important.

Spencer writes a really nuanced Sam Wilson. A guy who is pulled between his responsibility as Captain America to keep the peace and promote unity, and his responsibility as a prominent black man to stand up against injustice and fight the good fight.

Sam really did get a great book there, and all this talk of Spencer makes me wonder just how he pulled it off - but he did, and i too loved how that culminated.

And considering Marvel as a whole is a very liberal company, from the film division, to its actors to the writers and artists, it's just a ridiculous complaint.

yeah, i hate Perlmutter too but thank you for this - let's not act like marvel's a go-to for trump supporters these days

Aren't all of these the exact same points that were brought up in that Marvel Twine essay?

sure, but as a poster in that thread said: writing a 30k word essay & throwing it down a well isn't a great way to make your points

Marvels marketing is basically, change a character 99.9% of the time for a non storyline reason and have blogs berate long time readers with weeks of "Suck it fat white male virgins, Spider Man is now a lesbian Yugoslavian trans woman!" while the writer makes fun of you on twitter and then be unable to figure out why no one wants to spend 5$ a pop on it.

this is not at all what happens, and one of the dumbest posts i've seen in a minute
 

IrishNinja

Member
oh god, i'd totally forgotten about that brief bit with the bombshells...yeah, parts of Sam's book feel ghostwritten, where stuff like that seems about right. i get that he was heavy-handed with the serpents' anti-immigration stuff, but that's kinda rooted in those characters...they've always pretty much been white supremacists. i guess spencer felt dumping on "SJW's" would win someone over? but it was handled even more ham-fisted than discussions in either civil war
 
Well, that sucks to hear.

I never read comics as a kid, but I've started to follow some thanks to Google Play, Kindle and Comixology sales. I tend to steer clear of 'mainstream' ones though and opt for things like Southern Cross, Nowhere Men, Prophet, The Activity and Invisible Republic.

Don't let this affect you either way. It's just a new spin on the same old "comics are doomed" discussion people have been having since 1997. Overall things are way better than they used to be.
 
Don't let this affect you either way. It's just a new spin on the same old "comics are doomed" discussion people have been having since 1997. Overall things are way better than they used to be.

People have been having this conversation since the 1970s paper cost increases.

And generally, it's been true. Readship is a fraction of what it was then.

Comics may not die, but they're increasingly marginal.
 
This is the epitome of ignorance.

There are Trump supporters in nearly every single company. Refusing to give Marvel money because one of their high ranking employees is a Trump supporter is absolutely childish. Based on that logic, you'll need to stop buying every single product you buy.

And considering Marvel as a whole is a very liberal company, from the film division, to its actors to the writers and artists, it's just a ridiculous complaint.


From his Wikipedia:

On June 30, 2016, Laura Perlmutter donated $449,400 to a PAC supporting Donald Trump, and later was part of Trump's Inauguration committee.

In April 2017, Perlmutter was categorized by the New York Times as one of the "Clubgoers" among twenty people whom President Trump consults "outside the White House gates". He "has been informally advising ... on veterans issues [and] ... has been a presence" at Mar-a-Lago, according to the account.
 
oh god, i'd totally forgotten about that brief bit with the bombshells...yeah, parts of Sam's book feel ghostwritten, where stuff like that seems about right. i get that he was heavy-handed with the serpents' anti-immigration stuff, but that's kinda rooted in those characters...they've always pretty much been white supremacists. i guess spencer felt dumping on "SJW's" would win someone over? but it was handled even more ham-fisted than discussions in either civil war

It was no more ham-fisted than this:

yer08yl3uqeqikdpnjti.png


And that was awesome.

The Bombshells thing was poking fun at radicals, and radicals stake out a "there's us and then there's EVIL" position that allows for no understanding of any viewpoint other than its own, even if they're fundamentally on the same side.
 
People have been having this conversation since the 1970s paper cost increases.

And generally, it's been true. Readship is a fraction of what it was then.

Comics may not die, but they're increasingly marginal.

Things are better than they were; the graphic novel market has established itself, the digital market has established itself, file sharing didn't turn out to be the devil that killed the industry, and it turns out superheroes haven't lost relevance after all.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
From his Wikipedia:

On June 30, 2016, Laura Perlmutter donated $449,400 to a PAC supporting Donald Trump, and later was part of Trump's Inauguration committee.

In April 2017, Perlmutter was categorized by the New York Times as one of the "Clubgoers" among twenty people whom President Trump consults "outside the White House gates". He "has been informally advising ... on veterans issues [and] ... has been a presence" at Mar-a-Lago, according to the account.

Did you... not read what you quoted?

That response makes no sense as a reply to what I said.
 
Things are better than they were; the graphic novel market has established itself, the digital market has established itself, file sharing didn't turn out to be the devil that killed the industry, and it turns out superheroes haven't lost relevance after all.

I'd love to see real numbers about how many people actually read comics. We don't know the trade/digital numbers. But the individual issues are to the point where the best-selling books are near what would have been cancellation numbers in the past.

But whatever the reality, comics certainly have lost me.
 

ReAxion

Member
They would regularly point how diversity is bad, and how SJWing this character was.

and if people wanna say Slott and Spencer went crazy on twitter at their fans, the majority of flack they've gotten that I've seen comes from this type of fan.

sure, but as a poster in that thread said: writing a 30k word essay & throwing it down a well isn't a great way to make your points

oh, hey!
 
Comics cost what they cost because there's not that many people buying them anymore, and the ones that do are 'collectors' who want 'prestige' format printing.
That's false. The sales of graphic novels have gone up over the years. Some of the best selling books are comics aimed at kids.
 

Sandfox

Member
oh god, i'd totally forgotten about that brief bit with the bombshells...yeah, parts of Sam's book feel ghostwritten, where stuff like that seems about right. i get that he was heavy-handed with the serpents' anti-immigration stuff, but that's kinda rooted in those characters...they've always pretty much been white supremacists. i guess spencer felt dumping on "SJW's" would win someone over? but it was handled even more ham-fisted than discussions in either civil war
The Sam Wilson book uses exaggerations of both sides as villains with Sam and his group alongside characters like US Agent being the voices of reason. People just get upset when their side comes up.
 
I think my issues with comics currently come down to a few things.

1. even as a kid back in the day the alternative was far better or at least more rewarding.
30 minute cartoon that tells a more complete story, doesn't charge you dollars for a fraction of the story and most of all.... Only a week's wait till the next episode.
tv series - actually an hour of content and again weekly
movies - way less total content but is one big flashy story that can typically leave you satisfied for a bit.
Now a good portion of comics might be better than the alternatives, but thats mainly do to just how long comic arcs are drawn out.

2. Not only is stuff drawn out so often they always do the dumb as hell character death stunts, even when it isn't and actual death you just get a "hurry up and get back to the real stuff"
No fucking way am I paying monthly to read Commissioner Gordon suddenly seeming 15-20 years younger running around playing Filler Batman while every issue waiting for Bruce's ass to come back.

DC has these issues helped somewhat currently, Marvel doesn't and Hydra Cap is one of the dumbest things I have seen in a long time.
 

IrishNinja

Member

haha, it was a great line, man

The Bombshells thing was poking fun at radicals, and radicals stake out a "there's us and then there's EVIL" position that allows for no understanding of any viewpoint other than its own, even if they're fundamentally on the same side.

The Sam Wilson book uses exaggerations of both sides as villains with Sam and his group alongside characters like US Agent being the voices of reason. People just get upset when their side comes up.

while i get how trendy the "both sides" thing is right now...nahh, that really does ring as tone-deaf.

you've got these caricatures running around as "SJW"s" and use all the language that, literally, the shitty side of the internet employs to actively harass a number of spencer's fellow creators.

i absolutely get the point needing to be made about how Sam's more willing to compromise than some - and it really resonated in that final arc with Rage, too. but a better writer could've done just that without dabbing his fingers into that shit.
 

KingV

Member
I read a lot less comics day 1 than I did as a kid. They're just too expensive now, so I just do Unlimited and buy 1-2 per week on ComiXology. I just can't justify spending more money on something that takes me literally 5 minutes to read.

The inflation doesn't make a ton of sense to me, really, either. For $4 I can get a comic with about 26 pages that has the potential for a long tail in sales digitally via sales, and in various trades physically... or for a dollar more I can get an issue of like rolling stone with 4x as many pages and about 4x as many contributors. And if I like rolling stone, I can have someone mail it to my house for like $0.50 an issue.

It seems to me that the comics industry should look at adopting some sort of anthology format to increase readership.

Make a group of tightly connected books, package them 4-6 issues together a month and sale on news stands or in a magazine format. You could have a spider anthology, X-men, etc and keep them a few months behind the monthlies. If the editorial work is good you could create a book where you can get the whole story for the characters you care about in a easily digestible format. It might not have EVERY spider man or Xman book out, but it will have everything you need for the major plot beats and story arcs.
 
-Saga Saga Saga
-Read Indies
-Read Manga
-I don't read comics because I'm so cool
-Stop putting politics in my books
-Stop putting diversity in my books, I want the same shit.

Like clockwork.
.

Yup. Even with all my problems with Marvel, these takes are getting stale.

Also, I'll defend Dan Slott on his response to the Superior Spider-Man backlash. The fan reaction was just embarrassing.
 

Garlador

Member
Constant relaunches, all-encompassing events, extremely high prices, etc. We all know why the comics side of Marvel isn't doing great.
We need the return of the Dynamic Duo: Jemas and Quesada.
Well, maybe not, but I liked that era.
I was hopeful about the recent X-Men relaunch but... Yeah.
Nova is still great though.
And Nova is getting cancelled. Much to my displeasure.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Also, I'll defend Dan Slott on his response to the Superior Spider-Man backlash. The fan reaction was just embarrassing.

it's weird, i can agree that Superior was the most fun the book had had in forever & a lotta folks missed out, but as we're clearly winding down from baller CEO era Parker, i'm okay with the main title getting a new writer too...unless Slott's really got some interesting direction he'd like to take it in, but it feels like we're going back to (relative) status quo.

god knows there's enough spider books for him to do whatever he wants on others too.

We need the return of the Dynamic Duo: Jemas and Quesada.
Well, maybe not, but I liked that era.

i know CBR & other spots seemed to hate that team, and god knows there were some rough misses, but i too loved the shit out of that era
 

mreddie

Member
Out of curiosity, how are digital sales of comics doing? Has that moved the needle at all for either Marvel or DC?

Yes but both still kiss Diamond's ass.

Diamond has the preorder system and that basically judges which books run and which can't.

Black Panther's spinoff book got canned 2 issues in because the preorders were ass.

i know CBR & other spots seemed to hate that team, and god knows there were some rough misses, but i too loved the shit out of that era

2000s Marvel was ok and then I remember a lot of my favorite runs came from that era.
 
Thank you, was about to post this.
It's why manga was so appealing to me. Not necessarily the art style, but the fact it's so much easier to follow. Bonus points that the covers, yknow, actually portray the events in the book you're about the read.

Even when they do lots of spinoffs (Fairy Tail has a lot now) they still don't interfere with the main story.
Could you honestly tell a person who wanted to get into One Piece to start at volume 61? How long can you keep reading to get to where everyone is at? It's the same problem as comics.
 
Could you honestly tell a person who wanted to get into One Piece to start at volume 61? Manga's main problem is endurance. How long can you keep reading to get to where everyone is at.

I'm not sure if that's an issue unique to manga, or an issue even particularly problematic about manga alone.

At least you have the option to read it from Volume 1 to Volume 100 if you want.
I'd have no idea where to start if I wanted to for most DC/Marvel comics. Not to mention DC/Marvel's own backlog of stuff to read isn't exactly short...
 

Sandfox

Member
With comics you can jump in at the beginning of any story arc, but with manga you are expected to start from the beginning and for some series that can be a big hurdle.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Man there are some terrible takes in this thread. Mandate all artists use the same style? Superheroes should be for kids only? No crossovers ever? What? You guys have any idea how many incredibly cool stuff we'd have missed out on over the years?

Marvel (as opposed to the industry as a whole, I'll get to that in a sec) has... call it 3 primary issues. Constant relaunches/renumberings (because they're addicted to that new #1 boost, and are unwilling to call a mini a mini), massive event oversaturation, and intense talent drain They've literally been in the middle of one event or another for the last... God, 3 years? It's exhausting. And watching a lot of their best artists and writers go to Image or DC sure as hell hasn't helped. But these are not industry wide problems. They're not even really issues with Marvel's creative side,its all about editorial at this point.

The primary industry issue is the direct market, and that one's a lot harder to deal with, but it doesn't have anything to do with the "make it exactly like manga" hot takes. They need to get their books back in places that arent dedicated comic shops. Fortunately, digital is relieving the pressure on that front.

Of course there shouldn't be a unified artstyle across everything marvel does, but do you really like the practice of having a random 2 issues in a series have a completely different art style simply because the main artist isn't able to keep up the insane schedule?

In my mind that's extremely disruptive. If they absolutely have to change artists for an issue or two for production reasons, I really do believe there should an attempt to make that switch not be so drastic. You can have as unique of an artstyle as you want on a creatively planned switch, but don't determine that switch by soulless production scheduling in the middle of a storyline.


Otherwise, I do agree with your post. What you listed is easily the biggest addressable problems they have.
 

Lois_Lane

Member
With comics you can jump in at the beginning of any story arc, but with manga you are expected to start from the beginning and for some series that can be a big hurdle.

Not really. Unless there's been a massive reboot you still need to know what happened in the back issues to understand what's going on.
 
Not really. Unless there's been a massive reboot you still need to know what happened in the back issues to understand what's going on.

Depends on the comic. I started reading Green Lantern and X-men decades after they started with no reboot in between and it wasnt a problem. It wasn't written like one giant serial, but like a soap opera.

People don't have to go binge 50 years of General Hospital to follow it.

(Are those shows still on?)
 

Fhtagn

Member
Marvel's problem is that they are structured such that individual book sales seem to matter to them.

Were I in charge of Marvel, top to bottom, I'd consider the comics line a way to develop stories and characters over time, to build IP for movies and games and merch that bring in billions of dollars.

Focus as much on crowd pleasers as critical hits.

Lay off the endless issue number resets and line wide crossovers. It seems like for every Time Runs Out/Secret Wars there's a half dozen Civil Wars.

And for fuck sake figure out how to make money off people who buy trades and sub to Unlimited. The market willing to pay $4 for a single issue is going to go away entirely eventually.

I grew up reading Marvel and good word of mouth in the last few years got me back into reading them. But I'm never going back to floppies, ever. Trades and digital only. I sub to MU, buy digital trades on sale on ComiXology and I have over $100 in paperback & hardcover trades preordered for this year on Amazon.

And the titles I like are in danger of cancellation.

Figure out how to make money off of me, Marvel, please.
 

Sandfox

Member
Marvel's problem is that they are structured such that individual book sales seem to matter to them.

Were I in charge of Marvel, top to bottom, I'd consider the comics line a way to develop stories and characters over time, to build IP for movies and games and merch that bring in billions of dollars.

Focus as much on crowd pleasers as critical hits.

Lay off the endless issue number resets and line wide crossovers. It seems like for every Time Runs Out/Secret Wars there's a half dozen Civil Wars.

And for fuck sake figure out how to make money off people who buy trades and sub to Unlimited. The market willing to pay $4 for a single issue is going to go away entirely eventually.

I grew up reading Marvel and good word of mouth in the last few years got me back into reading them. But I'm never going back to floppies, ever. Trades and digital only. I sub to MU, buy digital trades on sale on ComiXology and I have over $100 in paperback & hardcover trades preordered for this year on Amazon.

And the titles I like are in danger of cancellation.

Figure out how to make money off of me, Marvel, please.
Umm...
 

Lois_Lane

Member
Depends on the comic. I started reading Green Lantern and X-men decades after they started with no reboot in between and it wasnt a problem. It wasn't written like one giant serial, but like a soap opera.

People don't have to go binge 50 years of General Hospital to follow it.

(Are those shows still on?)

Not with the newer ones. To understand why Logan's running you need to read schism then House of M etc.
 

SRG01

Member
I've never understood the obsession for biweeklies. That pace seems unsustainable.

Then again, somehow Deadpool manages to churn out issue after issue. How many people do they have working on that book?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Depends on the comic. I started reading Green Lantern and X-men decades after they started with no reboot in between and it wasnt a problem. It wasn't written like one giant serial, but like a soap opera.

People don't have to go binge 50 years of General Hospital to follow it.

(Are those shows still on?)

Soap opera is a good example, but there's only 4 soap operas still on tv, and their ratings are all dropping like rocks.

That model for both soap operas and comic books probably doesn't work in the age of netflix.
 

IrishNinja

Member
i know it's not viable right now, but imagine a marvel online shop where every weds (or preorder earlier for 10% off etc) i could pick up whatever books i want digitally for $1 each, and if i followed an arc/book for a set time, could maybe preorder a physical TPB/omnibus at something of a discount too.

i know it'd wreck the already struggling direct market shops. i don't know how it'd work as far as the studio seeing enough of a profit, even without diamond/shipping/etc, but i'd be all over that
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
i know it's not viable right now, but imagine a marvel online shop where every weds (or preorder earlier for 10% off etc) i could pick up whatever books i want digitally for $1 each, and if i followed an arc/book for a set time, could maybe preorder a physical TPB/omnibus at something of a discount too.

i know it'd wreck the already struggling direct market shops. i don't know how it'd work as far as the studio seeing enough of a profit, even without diamond/shipping/etc, but i'd be all over that

Maybe more likely scenario for affordability is them increasing their marvel unlimited to something like $20 and giving people access to all the new stuff.

I wonder if that model could make sense.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Maybe more likely scenario for affordability is them increasing their marvel unlimited to something like $20 and giving people access to all the new stuff.

I wonder if that model could make sense.

it sounds more viable, but then it'd still piss off/endanger the direct to market shops. don't get me wrong, that's inevitable & long overdue (id argue) but it'd still happen.

i guess i see it like cable companies: you can only bundle stuff for so long, before people just go after what they want. that sounds shitty for the lesser-appreciated stuff falling through the cracks, though.
 
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thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
it sounds more viable, but then it'd still piss off/endanger the direct to market shops. don't get me wrong, that's inevitable & long overdue (id argue) but it'd still happen.

i guess i see it like cable companies: you can only bundle stuff for so long, before people just go after what they want. that sounds shitty for the lesser-appreciated stuff falling through the cracks, though.

There'll still be the collector market and those that prefer physical. Maybe they could make peace by finally offering refunds for overstock like every single other intellectual property based good does.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
MCU should've had a canonical comic line in tandem with the films. Easiest money they could make and they fucked it up.

Hell, make the X-men and the like part of that Universe as well. Too bad it won't happen due to their petty Fox/Sony/et. al. rivalry instead of working together to benefit everyone. I doubt Papa Disney would give a shit if toy sales/etc. rose from everyone working together instead of worrying about getting the IP's back in-house.
 
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