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The Curious Case of the Switch Foxconn Leak (Now a hardware fanfiction thread)

Eurogamer clocks - 50-75% of PS4
Foxconn "leak" clocks - 100-150%
Would be hilarious and amazing if switch matches ps4 pro CPU. I hope it does.

If the fix on 921mHz GPU clock speed (with 2 SMs)at 16nm is legit and it gets us like 450 GFLOPs at fp32 and 900 GFLOPs fp16, shouldn't it be really close to xbone specs considering nvidia's architecture performs like 30-40% better bet flops than AMD's GPU with games that fully utilize fp16 mode(unreal engine games) like 90-98% close?
 

Zedark

Member
Would be hilarious and amazing if switch matches ps4 pro CPU. I hope it does.

If the fix on 921mHz GPU clock speed (with 2 SMs)at 16nm is legit and it gets us like 450 GFLOPs at fp32 and 900 GFLOPs fp16, shouldn't it be really close to xbone specs considering nvidia's architecture performs like 30-40% better bet flops than AMD's GPU with games that fully utilize fp16 mode(unreal engine games) like 90-98% close?
There are no (console) games that can use 100% half-precision (fp16), though. You should expect at best something like a third extra (AT MOST). Full fp16 usage only happens on simple games (with no need for very precies computations), which in turn don't need much processing power to begin with. Still, 1/3 extra power would be a great boost, giving an effective 600 GFLOPS FP32 equivalent and in theory up to 1/3 extra due to architecture means 900 GFLOPS and closer than 2/3 of XB1 power. Nothing to scoff at. Still both the fp16 boost and the architecture boost are uncertain value, so we can't conclude too much yet.

Edit:
The usage of half-precision doesn't really have anything to do with whether the game is "simple" or not, but rather whether any particular graphics algorithm is stable and consistent at the lower precision. If you think about it, the output of a pixel shader algorithm is typically only 8 bits (the bits per colour per pixel on a non-HDR framebuffer), whereas the mantissa of an IEEE 32-bit floating point number is 24 bits, and an IEEE 16-bit float has an 11 bit mantissa. Even the 16-bit float, with a constant exponent, is 8 times as precise as the result needs to be. Depending on the algorithm, it's possible that higher precision may be required during intermediate steps, but this is largely independent of how simple or complex the technique being used is. A sophisticated, lifelike rendering technique may output perfectly while calculating at FP16, whereas a relatively simple one may exhibit artefacts at that precision, just down to idiosyncrasies of the algorithms used. It may also be possible for an algorithm to be altered to function properly at FP16, or for a different algorithm to be swapped in instead to benefit from the increased speed of the lower precision calculations.

There are a couple of areas where FP16 generally can't be used, most notably for vertex shaders, and also for depth buffers (although reversed or logarithmic FP16 depth may be usable in some scenarios in theory). Vertex shaders typically only constitute a relatively small proportion of a GPU's workload these days, though, and the only reason unified shaders operate at 32 bit precision is to accommodate them (prior to unified shaders it was common for pixel shaders to operate at 16 bit or 24 bit precision).

It's hard to find good info on what proportion of modern graphics code can be run at FP16 without issue, but the info we do have bodes well for Switch. Unreal Engine 4 runs all pixel shaders at FP16 on mobile by default (so presumably on Switch, also), which could be 70-80% of the shader workload, depending on the game. The Ubisoft developer also claimed a roughly 70% ratio of FP16-compatible code, so I'd expect real-world performance to be quite a bit higher than pure FP32 numbers would suggest.
Thanks for the explanation, looks like my understanding of fp16/fp32 was a bit too limited. If they can actually get that 70% ratio of FP16 that Ubi dev mentioned, then that would mean quite a significant boost (54% if my math is correct).
 

z0m3le

Banned
There are no (console) games that can use 100% half-precision (fp16), though. You should expect at best something like a third extra (AT MOST). Full fp16 usage only happens on simple games (with no need for very precies computations), which in turn don't need much processing power to begin with. Still, 1/3 extra power would be a great boost, giving an effective 600 GFLOPS FP32 equivalent and in theory up to 1/3 extra due to architecture means 900 GFLOPS and closer than 2/3 of XB1 power. Nothing to scoff at. Still both the fp16 boost and the architecture boost are uncertain value, so we can't conclude too much yet.

Half precision can be used for a lot of game based calculations, none of which are "simple" they are mostly shader and post processing effects, we already have a developer quoted at 70% for 670gflops to 800gflops depending on Eurogamer or Foxconn clocks, that's before architecture comes into effect.

With Eurogamer's clocks, cpu + mixed precision puts switch around 65% to 70% of XB1, while Foxconn's numbers would give it a faster cpu and about 80% of xb1 with mixed precision. Single precision for both devices is around 2/5 and 1/2 respectively.
 
Half precision can be used for a lot of game based calculations, none of which are "simple" they are mostly shader and post processing effects, we already have a developer quoted at 70% for 670gflops to 800gflops depending on Eurogamer or Foxconn clocks, that's before architecture comes into effect.

With Eurogamer's clocks, cpu + mixed precision puts switch around 65% to 70% of XB1, while Foxconn's numbers would give it a faster cpu and about 80% of xb1 with mixed precision. Single precision for both devices is around 2/5 and 1/2 respectively.

We're looking at something close to 50% PS4 base power for bet case scenario then for games that take advantage of fp16, which could make a 1020p ps4 game a 720p on the switch.. Just maybe. Hell imagine if Nintendo makes a good chunk of their switch games on unreal engine. What are well known engines that take advantage of fp16..? I've heard of Unreal Engine 4 being one of them.

I'm hoping the bandwidth is scaled appropriately then when compared to xbone and ps4 consoles. What's the current predictions based off an x1 or pascal.. 25-50 GB/s?
 

z0m3le

Banned
We're looking at something close to 50% PS4 base power for bet case scenario then for games that take advantage of fp16, which could make a 1020p ps4 game a 720p on the switch.. Just maybe. Hell imagine if Nintendo makes a good chunk of their switch games on unreal engine. What are well known engines that take advantage of fp16..? I've heard of Unreal Engine 4 being one of them.

I'm hoping the bandwidth is scaled appropriately then when compared to xbone and ps4 consoles. What's the current predictions based off an x1 or pascal.. 25-50 GB/s?

With the bandwidth, you have to remember maxwell and pascal have huge memory bandwidth advantages, so it should be OK, especially if they did go with 50gb/s
 
The problem with these comparisons is that Nvidia and AMD approach things differently.

That means that we can't just count flipflops and expect that to be true.

Nvidia seems to be ahead in this tech race, and also there's the fact that PSBox has outdated tech from AMD...

I think that Switch could use some nifty Nvidia shortcut tech that allows them to get more juice out of seemingly less powerful hardware. That memory bandwidth is a good example.

I don't think that Switch is as powerful as PSBox, but I suspect it's not that far out in real world performance (paper performance can be misleading).

I am curious about the EG vs Foxconn leaker, though. Could be interesting to see who is right in the end. Oh, and it would be even more fun if the SCD thing was real and Nintendo brings that in the near future (as in the next 2-3 years)... This forum would be saltier than the Dead Sea!
 

TLZ

Banned
The processor in the enhancer is even bigger than the main unit CPU, at 200mm2.
Dimensions looked like 12x18, on par with GP106.
There are 2 extra memory chips. (Pretty sure it adds 4 GB memory, for a total of 8 GB.)
It connects to the back of the main unit motherboard via some sort of PCI bridge.
There are 2 Wi-Fi [antennae], 1 HDMI, 1 Mini-DP, 1 network port, 2 unknown circular ports, 3 network activity indicator lights..
The enhanced main unit also looks different than the standard unit. It's got extra bits on the motherboard, including the bridging connector..
The enhanced version doesn't have a base yet.
The enhanced version can connect to a TV/display without the base. It also has a power input.
I don't know if the processor on the enhanced version includes CPU.
If it doesn't include a CPU, then it can at most upscale existing games to 4K, it won't bring any dramatic improvements. The weak CPU might be the bottleneck.
If the main processor on the enhanced version only has GPU, then it'll be more powerful than PS4 Pro.
The enhanced version is very powerful, but also weighs more and feels worse in the hands. It's purely to cater for 4K TVs.
The performance will be off the charts with the main processor plus enhancer processor. I've never seen such a huge 16nm chip on a mobile device, especially because the main processor is already 100mm2.
The main processor is dwarfed by the enhancer processor.
There's no additional battery on the enhancer. You probably have to plug it in when playing.
The power adapter is also built in.

I don't know about you guys, but the bolded part makes it obvious to me it's a home console unit (if it was to be sold).

I hope Nintendo don't leave us in the dark for too long and bring this out years later. (again, if this was to be sold)
 

sits

Member
I don't know about you guys, but the bolded part makes it obvious to me it's a home console unit (if it was to be sold).

I hope Nintendo don't leave us in the dark for too long and bring this out years later. (again, if this was to be sold)

z0m3le and EloquentM give an excellent update as to where we currently are in this thread:

A Foxconn employee leaked a bunch of information about the switch in November, stuff that was confirmed by Nintendo in January like the battery capacity of 4310mah and the weight of the tablet and Joycons, he also saw clocks that haven't been confirmed by Nintendo yet that being 1.78ghz cpu and 921mhz gpu as well as 4GB ram.

He also spotted an enhanced switch with a second processing chip the same size and shape as the GTX 1060, this enhanced switch was produced in 2000 units, and is likely a devkit for a switch with a dock that houses an external gpu.

Chinese Foxconn worker correctly guesses aspects of the switch before it is revealed fully and hints at there being a dev unit that is stronger than a ps4 pro which the posters in this thread are speculating to be the SCD

What's an SCD?

 

Thraktor

Member
Which still describes the Dev unit photographed to a tee. So we are relying on the memory and processor on the second board being a prototype future dock, rather than just to aid development. I guess it's possible as a 4k version as the guy speculates. Would the USB be good enough for the CPU to access the other Ram at native speeds?

Assuming you're talking about this dev unit, it doesn't seem to be the described device at all.

- It's a single physical unit, whereas the leak describes a separate enhancer which "connects to the back of the main unit motherboard via some sort of PCI bridge"
- It doesn't have the mini DisplayPort connector nor "2 unknown circular ports"
- It predates the leak by several months, and the leaker specified that they were "planning to make" them in late November. It wouldn't make any sense for there to be photos of the unit several months before it was made.

The photographed dev kit just seems like an early piece of dev hardware from before the joycons were finalised (notice the lack of joycon rails on either side), and before they had it running in portable mode off battery power.

Regarding RAM, no, neither the CPU nor GPU would be able to access the other's RAM at native speeds. The connection between the two might be in the order of 2GB/s if they're using a PCIe based USB-C alt mode, whereas the Switch's standard RAM is either 25GB/s or 50GB/s, and the GPU's RAM would be perhaps 100-128GB/s. Memory management between the two would be important, although it shouldn't be too much different than it is on PC.

I suggested many times that the fan could act like in modern desktop GPUs. My MSI GTX 970 has a 0 rpm mode in idle and with less intensive games, but it kicks in when demanding titles push it more and the temperature goes up. I imagine that the little fan in the Switch could do the exact same thing to avoid throttling.

Yeah, you're right. I got caught up in the whole "portable mode" vs "docked mode" paradigm, but it makes a lot more sense to just link the fan to temperature, irrespective of mode.

This is pretty exciting, i'm really curious to see if this "enhancer" device will actually be released on the market. I think it would be smart, it's basically an optional accessory that replaces your dock to boost power for people who want better docked performances (for example people with a 4K TV), and it shouldn't be too hard for Nintendo to make 4K patches for existing major titles (like Zelda, Mario, MK, Xenoblade 2 or Splatoon) and support 2-3 different res going forward. Seems like the machine was designed for this, the SCD patent has been around for a while, not to mention that they unified their development teams. It's still much easier than making Smash 3DS and Wii U, Super Mario Maker 3DS and Wii U, Yoshi 3DS and Wii U, Mario kart 7 and 8, etc...

Technically it shouldn't be all that difficult for Nintendo to add 4K support to their existing games (it helps that their development environment is going to be catered towards multiple performance targets and resolutions already), and they should be able to do so even with a GPU that's far less capable than the GP106 (although it's possible, or even probable, that the GP106 is a stand-in for a GPU that's closer to something like the GP107 in performance).

The thing that puzzles me is why they'd release it as an add-on for Switch rather than a stand-alone console. A stand-alone console would cost a little more, but it would have a massively larger potential audience, and they could perhaps get some more western third-parties on board if they didn't have to also support the regular Switch (while Nintendo games and less technically demanding third-party games would still run on both).

A bespoke VR SCD?

Why not both? More seriously, though, I don't really see Nintendo going all-in on dedicated VR hardware. I feel like they're best off either going the route of a google cardboard-style solution that's cheap enough to be packed in with a game for $60, or waiting until stand-alone VR headsets come down in price and just supporting OpenVR with whatever stationary console-type-device they've got at that point. In the latter case they could focus their hardware efforts on upgraded joycons with positional tracking which could be used both in and out of VR.

There are no (console) games that can use 100% half-precision (fp16), though. You should expect at best something like a third extra (AT MOST). Full fp16 usage only happens on simple games (with no need for very precies computations), which in turn don't need much processing power to begin with. Still, 1/3 extra power would be a great boost, giving an effective 600 GFLOPS FP32 equivalent and in theory up to 1/3 extra due to architecture means 900 GFLOPS and closer than 2/3 of XB1 power. Nothing to scoff at. Still both the fp16 boost and the architecture boost are uncertain value, so we can't conclude too much yet.

The usage of half-precision doesn't really have anything to do with whether the game is "simple" or not, but rather whether any particular graphics algorithm is stable and consistent at the lower precision. If you think about it, the output of a pixel shader algorithm is typically only 8 bits (the bits per colour per pixel on a non-HDR framebuffer), whereas the mantissa of an IEEE 32-bit floating point number is 24 bits, and an IEEE 16-bit float has an 11 bit mantissa. Even the 16-bit float, with a constant exponent, is 8 times as precise as the result needs to be. Depending on the algorithm, it's possible that higher precision may be required during intermediate steps, but this is largely independent of how simple or complex the technique being used is. A sophisticated, lifelike rendering technique may output perfectly while calculating at FP16, whereas a relatively simple one may exhibit artefacts at that precision, just down to idiosyncrasies of the algorithms used. It may also be possible for an algorithm to be altered to function properly at FP16, or for a different algorithm to be swapped in instead to benefit from the increased speed of the lower precision calculations.

There are a couple of areas where FP16 generally can't be used, most notably for vertex shaders, and also for depth buffers (although reversed or logarithmic FP16 depth may be usable in some scenarios in theory). Vertex shaders typically only constitute a relatively small proportion of a GPU's workload these days, though, and the only reason unified shaders operate at 32 bit precision is to accommodate them (prior to unified shaders it was common for pixel shaders to operate at 16 bit or 24 bit precision).

It's hard to find good info on what proportion of modern graphics code can be run at FP16 without issue, but the info we do have bodes well for Switch. Unreal Engine 4 runs all pixel shaders at FP16 on mobile by default (so presumably on Switch, also), which could be 70-80% of the shader workload, depending on the game. The Ubisoft developer also claimed a roughly 70% ratio of FP16-compatible code, so I'd expect real-world performance to be quite a bit higher than pure FP32 numbers would suggest.
 
The usage of half-precision doesn't really have anything to do with whether the game is "simple" or not, but rather whether any particular graphics algorithm is stable and consistent at the lower precision. If you think about it, the output of a pixel shader algorithm is typically only 8 bits (the bits per colour per pixel on a non-HDR framebuffer), whereas the mantissa of an IEEE 32-bit floating point number is 24 bits, and an IEEE 16-bit float has an 11 bit mantissa. Even the 16-bit float, with a constant exponent, is 8 times as precise as the result needs to be. Depending on the algorithm, it's possible that higher precision may be required during intermediate steps, but this is largely independent of how simple or complex the technique being used is. A sophisticated, lifelike rendering technique may output perfectly while calculating at FP16, whereas a relatively simple one may exhibit artefacts at that precision, just down to idiosyncrasies of the algorithms used. It may also be possible for an algorithm to be altered to function properly at FP16, or for a different algorithm to be swapped in instead to benefit from the increased speed of the lower precision calculations.

And this is where development on PS4 Pro will actually greatly begin to benefit the Switch with third parties, as new techniques for taking advantage of 2x FP16 will be developed.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the ability for a standard TX1 (like that in the Shield TV) to actually maintain the claimed clock speeds for 8 days straight? Presumably, since the Shield TV does indeed throttle according to MDave to levels below those from this leak, then that would indicate that the SoC being tested with those leaked clock speeds cannot be a standard TX1 right? It would suggest 16nm but I guess it could also suggest an SM or CPU core is disabled.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Assuming you're talking about this dev unit, it doesn't seem to be the described device at all.

- It's a single physical unit, whereas the leak describes a separate enhancer which "connects to the back of the main unit motherboard via some sort of PCI bridge"
- It doesn't have the mini DisplayPort connector nor "2 unknown circular ports"
- It predates the leak by several months, and the leaker specified that they were "planning to make" them in late November. It wouldn't make any sense for there to be photos of the unit several months before it was made.

The photographed dev kit just seems like an early piece of dev hardware from before the joycons were finalised (notice the lack of joycon rails on either side), and before they had it running in portable mode off battery power.
If you pay close attention you'll notice the side profile of device's side matching the switch side profile to the t, the top bevel included, all underneath some form of a lid/cover placed over the joycon rails - notice the different plastic texture of the lids, vis-a-vis device's chassis.
 

Zedark

Member
The usage of half-precision doesn't really have anything to do with whether the game is "simple" or not, but rather whether any particular graphics algorithm is stable and consistent at the lower precision. If you think about it, the output of a pixel shader algorithm is typically only 8 bits (the bits per colour per pixel on a non-HDR framebuffer), whereas the mantissa of an IEEE 32-bit floating point number is 24 bits, and an IEEE 16-bit float has an 11 bit mantissa. Even the 16-bit float, with a constant exponent, is 8 times as precise as the result needs to be. Depending on the algorithm, it's possible that higher precision may be required during intermediate steps, but this is largely independent of how simple or complex the technique being used is. A sophisticated, lifelike rendering technique may output perfectly while calculating at FP16, whereas a relatively simple one may exhibit artefacts at that precision, just down to idiosyncrasies of the algorithms used. It may also be possible for an algorithm to be altered to function properly at FP16, or for a different algorithm to be swapped in instead to benefit from the increased speed of the lower precision calculations.

There are a couple of areas where FP16 generally can't be used, most notably for vertex shaders, and also for depth buffers (although reversed or logarithmic FP16 depth may be usable in some scenarios in theory). Vertex shaders typically only constitute a relatively small proportion of a GPU's workload these days, though, and the only reason unified shaders operate at 32 bit precision is to accommodate them (prior to unified shaders it was common for pixel shaders to operate at 16 bit or 24 bit precision).

It's hard to find good info on what proportion of modern graphics code can be run at FP16 without issue, but the info we do have bodes well for Switch. Unreal Engine 4 runs all pixel shaders at FP16 on mobile by default (so presumably on Switch, also), which could be 70-80% of the shader workload, depending on the game. The Ubisoft developer also claimed a roughly 70% ratio of FP16-compatible code, so I'd expect real-world performance to be quite a bit higher than pure FP32 numbers would suggest.
Thanks for the explanation, looks like my understanding of fp16/fp32 was a bit too limited. If they can actually get that 70% ratio of FP16 that Ubi dev mentioned, then that would mean quite a significant boost (54% if my math is correct).
 

Instro

Member
Would be hilarious and amazing if switch matches ps4 pro CPU. I hope it does.

If the fix on 921mHz GPU clock speed (with 2 SMs)at 16nm is legit and it gets us like 450 GFLOPs at fp32 and 900 GFLOPs fp16, shouldn't it be really close to xbone specs considering nvidia's architecture performs like 30-40% better bet flops than AMD's GPU with games that fully utilize fp16 mode(unreal engine games) like 90-98% close?

It would probably have to if that whole enhanced dock rumor is actually legit.
 

Malakai

Member
Cuningas de Häme;230061766 said:
The problem with these comparisons is that Nvidia and AMD approach things differently.

That means that we can't just count flipflops and expect that to be true.

Nvidia seems to be ahead in this tech race, and also there's the fact that PSBox has outdated tech from AMD...

I think that Switch could use some nifty Nvidia shortcut tech that allows them to get more juice out of seemingly less powerful hardware. That memory bandwidth is a good example.

I don't think that Switch is as powerful as PSBox, but I suspect it's not that far out in real world performance (paper performance can be misleading).

I am curious about the EG vs Foxconn leaker, though. Could be interesting to see who is right in the end. Oh, and it would be even more fun if the SCD thing was real and Nintendo brings that in the near future (as in the next 2-3 years)... This forum would be saltier than the Dead Sea!

This place would have more salt than if the all the oceans on the earth evaporated and left remaining salt in their place.......
 

TLZ

Banned
The thing that puzzles me is why they'd release it as an add-on for Switch rather than a stand-alone console. A stand-alone console would cost a little more, but it would have a massively larger potential audience, and they could perhaps get some more western third-parties on board if they didn't have to also support the regular Switch (while Nintendo games and less technically demanding third-party games would still run on both).

The points I bolded from the translation quote perfectly describe a home console IMO.

I dont believe it's a Dev unit. Why would the switch Dev unit be ps4pro power levels when the switch is multitudes lower in power? I hope we get more leaks about this from someone. Can't be at Nintendo's mercy to release info.
 
The points I bolded from the translation quote perfectly describe a home console IMO.

I dont believe it's a Dev unit. Why would the switch Dev unit be ps4pro power levels when the switch is multitudes lower in power? I hope we get more leaks about this from someone. Can't be at Nintendo's mercy to release info.

I figured that the devkit is meant for devs to work on Nintendo's pro dock so that they can start making games that can be easily forward compatible with that new dock that will probably be released in one and a half two years from now.

To me, if Nintendo does release this for around 200 euros or so and turns the switch into a 4k 60fps machine when docked then I'd buy it in less than a heartbeat. You'd be getting something beyond ps4 pro power for almost the same price but with the option of taking your games on the go too. That's insane!
 
I honestly hope 4k is an scd vs a console. Its true that a separate console could bring in more new people and sell more over all, but it would be cheaper and less hassle for people who already own a switch. But a 4k console is better than nothing.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Nintendo announces an SCD/4k iteration in summer 18 and have it released in fall '18/Q1 2019. Nintendo did say that the switch is one of a family of consoles, so iterations are inevitable, including a switch with better battery life.
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
z0m3le and EloquentM give an excellent update as to where we currently are in this thread:





What's an SCD?
fyi although the first thread about talks about cloud gaming the original SCD patent is in there too I believe. Utilizing an external device (the SCD) the system connected to the scd can utilize the processing power of whatever internals are within the it. Since the switch was announced there's been speculation that it could've been an SCD which we now no isn't true since the dock is merely a usb-c hub
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1150086
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1168004
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1246281
 
I honestly hope 4k is an scd vs a console. Its true that a separate console could bring in more new people, but it would be cheaper and less hassle for people who already own a switch.

Ah new console would be really dumb of them if they can achieve the same thing by just making a dock that can upgrade switch users. For new users they would sell the 2 packed in for 500 bucks.

I think the only extra consoles they will probably produce is a compact switch with no joycons (but compatible with them) and smaller screen (but higher pixel density for VR) but still able to dock and display to a TV.
 
Ah new console would be really dumb of them if they can achieve the same thing by just making a dock that can upgrade switch users. For new users they would sell the 2 packed in for 500 bucks.

I think the only extra consoles they will probably produce is a compact switch with no joycons (but compatible with them) and smaller screen (but higher pixel density for VR) but still able to dock and display to a TV.
Who will buy a $500 switch with a 4k dock though? Doesn't sound enticing selling both combined for $500. $400 sounds like a great deal, but I don't see it happening.ol Nintendo needs to be competitive with their price. They gotta. be better with marketing


It is strange to sell a add on dock for $200 though. I predict ps4 pro will be lowered to $300 by fall 18. Perhaps its better and makes more sense to sell 4k as a home console, but just soley as a home. If they can sell it for $300-350 in fall 18-q1 2019, it would be hell of deal.
 
Assuming you're talking about this dev unit, it doesn't seem to be the described device at all.

- It's a single physical unit, whereas the leak describes a separate enhancer which "connects to the back of the main unit motherboard via some sort of PCI bridge"
- It doesn't have the mini DisplayPort connector nor "2 unknown circular ports"
- It predates the leak by several months, and the leaker specified that they were "planning to make" them in late November. It wouldn't make any sense for there to be photos of the unit several months before it was made.

It could easily be a different version, but I still think he's talking about something resembling the picture.
The picture most likely has either a standard or modified Switch motherboard, with a second board attached to the back of it via some kind of PCI bridge, no?
 

TLZ

Banned
I figured that the devkit is meant for devs to work on Nintendo's pro dock so that they can start making games that can be easily forward compatible with that new dock that will probably be released in one and a half two years from now.

To me, if Nintendo does release this for around 200 euros or so and turns the switch into a 4k 60fps machine when docked then I'd buy it in less than a heartbeat. You'd be getting something beyond ps4 pro power for almost the same price but with the option of taking your games on the go too. That's insane!

I honestly hope 4k is an scd vs a console. Its true that a separate console could bring in more new people and sell more over all, but it would be cheaper and less hassle for people who already own a switch. But a 4k console is better than nothing.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Nintendo announces an SCD/4k iteration in summer 18 and have it released in fall '18/Q1 2019. Nintendo did say that the switch is one of a family of consoles, so iterations are inevitable, including a switch with better battery life.

What about people who don't own a switch? That'll be incredibly expensive having to buy both $500!
 
What about people who don't own a switch? That'll be incredibly expensive having to buy both $500!

My reply after (three posts up) redresses that. ._.

It actually it might be better off selling them separately, with the rumored 4k "scd" being a stand alone console. The current switch could be mainly seen as a handheld(or maybe a revised version with better battery life), while the 4k version is just a home console with no portability whastoever. I think that's pretty fair. I don't see Nintendo selling an SCD as powerful as PS4 pro for $200. Nintendo selling it at $300 would be a steal, but I'm expecting something like $350-400. Both the switch we know today and the 4k version will/should play the same games.
 

majik13

Member
What about people who don't own a switch? That'll be incredibly expensive having to buy both $500!

Well no one is forcing them to buy both, they could still just buy a Switch and play the exact same games. The SCD would just be the premium upgrade. Kinda like The Slim and Pro. But a better deal for current owners as they wouldnt need to buy a whole new system.


Im not ruling out that it could be seperate though

I don't see Nintendo selling an SCD as powerful as PS4 pro for $200. Nintendo selling it at $300 would be a steal, but I'm expecting something like $350-400. Both the switch we know today and the 4k version will/should play the same games.

But isnt the idea it wouldnt be just the SCD that is as powerful as a Pro but the combination of the current switch combined with an the SCD to reach Pro power. If thats accurate then that would theoretically keep the cost down a bit, if I understand the tech correctly.
 

TLZ

Banned
My reply after (three posts up) redresses that. ._.

It actually it might be better off selling them separately, with the rumored 4k "scd" being a stand alone console. The current switch could be mainly seen as a handheld(or maybe a revised version with better battery life), while the 4k version is just a home console with no portability whastoever. I think that's pretty fair. I don't see Nintendo selling an SCD as powerful as PS4 pro for $200. Nintendo selling it at $300 would be a steal, but I'm expecting something like $350-400. Both the switch we know today and the 4k version will/should play the same games.

Apologies. I just read both posts, quickly replied and left.

Well no one is forcing them to buy both, they could still just buy a Switch and play the exact same games. The SCD would just be the premium upgrade. Kinda like The Slim and Pro. But a better deal for current owners as they wouldnt need to buy a whole new system.


Im not ruling out that it could be seperate though

But it's not like the slim and pro. I can buy the pro separately and much cheaper than $500. A $200 add-on would be too much.
 

Donnie

Member
PS4 Pro is $400, so I'm not sure why $500 would be too much for something as powerful as PS4 Pro (or even more powerful) but with the added feature of transforming into a handheld at will.
 

z0m3le

Banned
The dock could be sold at a profit for $200 this year most likely, as for a console, it doesn't have to be one or the other, nintendo could release a stand alone dock with the switch components minus the battery and screen for $350 to $400 this year for a profit. If it's next year, the price should be even cheaper. A bundle for $399 thanks to logistics, should be capable of sold at a profit.

Whenever Sony decides to release a PS5, Nintendo could just release a new dock to match the performance, it's a fairly smart move because Nintendo is keeping everyone inside one ecosystem, while Sony tries to move people from 4 to 5.
 

Hermii

Member
I honestly hope 4k is an scd vs a console. Its true that a separate console could bring in more new people and sell more over all, but it would be cheaper and less hassle for people who already own a switch. But a 4k console is better than nothing.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Nintendo announces an SCD/4k iteration in summer 18 and have it released in fall '18/Q1 2019. Nintendo did say that the switch is one of a family of consoles, so iterations are inevitable, including a switch with better battery life.
I also assume a "Nintendo pocket" will come out, when they can shrink the switch chipset to 16nmff assuming it's 20nm or 10nm assuming it's 16nm.
 
Yep I could see that. A switch with a smaller screen and overall size, and maybe controls that don't detach for $200 or less

Then another switch alongside of it that has current 6.2 inch screen with better battery life than the pocket, and possibly non detachable controls for 200 or a bit above that. 5- hours on botw would be glorious.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Yep I could see that. A switch with a smaller screen and overall size, and maybe controls that don't detach for $200 or less

Then another switch alongside of it that has current 6.2 inch screen with better battery life than the pocket, and possibly non detachable controls for 200 or a bit above that. 5- hours on botw would be glorious.

They could probably just remove the Joycons and add a clamshell style controller and put the battery in that, be around the same thickness and size as the n3dsxl without even shrinking the screen. Could go from the 4310mah battery to something upto twice that size if they wanted and still be around $200 without a dock next year. They could do it this year for 250 but I think it would be too early to introduce an alternate sku.

Would be able to have a 4 to 9 hour battery life thanks to the bigger battery too. Heck, hori could offer a clamshell 3rd party controller and do the same thing, end up with an extended battery through the usbc, will be interesting if anyone does it, because it solves the size issue imo.
 

Hermii

Member
They could probably just remove the Joycons and add a clamshell style controller and put the battery in that, be around the same thickness and size as the n3dsxl without even shrinking the screen. Could go from the 4310mah battery to something upto twice that size if they wanted and still be around $200 without a dock next year. They could do it this year for 250 but I think it would be too early to introduce an alternate sku.

Would be able to have a 4 to 9 hour battery life thanks to the bigger battery too. Heck, hori could offer a clamshell 3rd party controller and do the same thing, end up with an extended battery through the usbc, will be interesting if anyone does it, because it solves the size issue imo.
Would they even need A larger battery though? A smaller fabrication node and no fan would help a lot.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Would they even need A larger battery though? A smaller fabrication node and no fan would help a lot.

The size of the battery is limited to what can fit in the tablet alongside the hardware, we see it in the thermal pictures, putting it in a clam shell would allow you to more than double the size of the battery, not saying they would go that far, but putting a 6000mah battery in the shell would be pretty cheap and you could get better than n3ds life out of it.

Process node is another way to go, which is something I think they have already done, as it makes sense for them to have 16nm since even the bigger consoles like xb1s and pro are 16nm, moving to A72 would also allow for much longer battery life. However this leak says they put that extra battery life into a higher clock which is also acceptable.

If it is 16nm, 10nm might not be ready for Nintendo until 2019, so this is a way around that if they want to introduce something sooner. I still think Hori could make a killing by just putting a 3rd party clam shell controller with a large battery inside it.
 

Malakai

Member
Couldn't Nintendo easily make a Switch Go, by keeping the SoC clocked only in mobile mode and removing the fan? Or would a hypothetical device become to hot?
 

TLZ

Banned
PS4 Pro is $400, so I'm not sure why $500 would be too much for something as powerful as PS4 Pro (or even more powerful) but with the added feature of transforming into a handheld at will.
Because the pro won't stay at $400 by the time this ever sells... So the difference in price would be bigger. And because i can guess most of the people who don't care about the portable aspect of it would feel they're paying extra for something they'd never use. You're basically forcing people to buy both your handheld and home console at the same time. That's a lot of cost that can be made easier dividing the costs making them separate.

Maybe, just maybe I'd get both sooner if both handheld and scd combined are close to pro pricing.
 
Thanks for the explanation, looks like my understanding of fp16/fp32 was a bit too limited. If they can actually get that 70% ratio of FP16 that Ubi dev mentioned, then that would mean quite a significant boost (54% if my math is correct).
Well, even using Eurogamer's numbers, fp16 will significantly help with narrowing the gap from the other consoles. Using mixed precision with 70% of the code being FP16 would clock it at 668 GFLOPS, which is 51% of the XB1. If we go with your 4/3 number on the difference between Nvidia's FLOPS efficiency over AMD, that would make it an equivalent to a AMD GPU with 890 GFLOPS, which is 68% of the XB1 and 48% of the PS4. Undocked, the Switch would be equivalent to a 356 GFLOPS PS4-like GPU, which would be much more than twice the performance of the Wii U's older architecture. IMO, that is very good for such a small form factor.

If the GPU is clocked at 921MHz, that would be equivalent to a 1068 GFLOPS on the PS4 if we use the same numbers (over 80% of XB1, 58% of PS4). It obviously sounds better, but it's really not that significant of a difference from the Eurogamer numbers to break the game. How the Switch fare with the other systems heavily depends on how well the game is optimized on the featureset like fp16.
 
Its going to get interesting soon to see how devs push the hardware of their consoles with fp16. its known that both Xbone models and PS4 OG can't use fp16, while PS4 Pro and Switch can(Scorpio likely will be able to).

Which well known developers use engines like unreal 4?
 
Its going to get interesting soon to see how devs push the hardware of their consoles with fp16. its known that both Xbone models and PS4 OG can't use fp16, while PS4 Pro and Switch can(Scorpio likely will be able to).

Which well known developers use engines like unreal 4?

While ps4pro (and maybe Scorpio) will support it I do wonder how much it will actually be used by them as it would involve significant code rewriting for a niche
 

Calm Mind

Member
The dock could be sold at a profit for $200 this year most likely, as for a console, it doesn't have to be one or the other, nintendo could release a stand alone dock with the switch components minus the battery and screen for $350 to $400 this year for a profit. If it's next year, the price should be even cheaper. A bundle for $399 thanks to logistics, should be capable of sold at a profit.

Whenever Sony decides to release a PS5, Nintendo could just release a new dock to match the performance, it's a fairly smart move because Nintendo is keeping everyone inside one ecosystem, while Sony tries to move people from 4 to 5.

Sounds like a plan to me.
 

Cuburt

Member
I wonder if an SCD is why we didn't get any AAA 3rd party games at launch. Any. I know this is expected for Nintendo at this point but I think even the 3rd parties that want to support Switch would want big titles there at launch, not only because it can help them sell when people are looking for software, but also because if there was any time to sow a tiny seed to help the foundation for a platform to sell games on, I would think it was in the first few months, rather than many months in, especially if these were just "market test" ports.

It could be that they are planning an end of the year launch that would be more like a standard console launch, whereas this March Switch release, has been much more like a handheld launch with the time of year and even the line up. It's a bit of a soft launch, but rather than being "rushed" like many people have commented, they are allowing the Switch hardware to gain traction and win over people with the design and function, as well as getting a chance to see what features people want (apps, online, etc.) so by the time the Holidays roll around, they can have closer to a full suite of features when the SCD and their paid online service launches.

It might also explain why NBA 2K18, FIFA18 and Skyrim are all coming out in the Fall, besides that being when the sports games usually release, it may also be why they decided on those franchises to be the titles they put on the Switch. A few interesting things of note, Peter Moore says it's a custom built version for the Switch but they confirmed it is actually FIFA18, it is also being built by the same team working on the other versions, and, perhaps the oddest detail to me, it's releasing the same date as the other versions. With how terribly the Wii U ports tended to be announced and marketed (or rather not announced and marketed), given delayed dates, and having features just not be present, this actually sounds a little promising for once. Also, while Skyrim may not named as such right now, it appears to be the remastered Special Edition. We also don't know when Steep will release and despite Ubi saying they have more unannounced games in development for the Switch and being a company that loves to be on a new platform day one, they only have Just Dance announced for the forseeable future. Even Rayman Legends isn't announced for at least launch window, which seems odd when you'd think that now is the time to release that game. Then there is also Project Sonic 2017 with is a winter title also being released on the other platforms. Seems a little odd that so many big 3rd party titles are sitting at the back half of the year.

This might also be a coincidence and they are trying to pack the holidays like Nintendo is with big titles for the system, but maybe they also know that the games will run better with the additional hardware.

It seems like a bit of a stretch, but the SCD from the patents will presumably be more than just an add-on to provide more power but can be used for cloud computing and such. It's possible that it can provide benefit not just in docked mode, but cloud/online features while you are out in portable mode, adding value for everyone no matter how you use the Switch. I've also speculated that by buying an SCD, you might be able to forgo the online fee, since you might hypothetically be helping to provide computing power for the cloud and that would also provide the option for vanilla Switch owners to get some of the cloud benefits, without an SCD, by paying the online fee.

If there is any truth to this, maybe they are waiting until E3 to announce the SCD, which also seems like the most likely time Nintendo announces more upcoming games. That would also likely include more AAA third party games, and could explain why they and Nintendo wanted to wait.
 
I wonder if an SCD is why we didn't get any AAA 3rd party games at launch. Any. I know this is expected for Nintendo at this point but I think even the 3rd parties that want to support Switch would want big titles there at launch, not only because it can help them sell when people are looking for software, but also because if there was any time to sow a tiny seed to help the foundation for a platform to sell games on, I would think it was in the first few months, rather than many months in, especially if these were just "market test" ports.

Having an SCD would only complicate the concept of the Switch which is the last thing Nintendo wants.
 

Hermii

Member
I wonder if an SCD is why we didn't get any AAA 3rd party games at launch. Any. I know this is expected for Nintendo at this point but I think even the 3rd parties that want to support Switch would want big titles there at launch, not only because it can help them sell when people are looking for software, but also because if there was any time to sow a tiny seed to help the foundation for a platform to sell games on, I would think it was in the first few months, rather than many months in, especially if these were just "market test" ports.

It could be that they are planning an end of the year launch that would be more like a standard console launch, whereas this March Switch release, has been much more like a handheld launch with the time of year and even the line up. It's a bit of a soft launch, but rather than being "rushed" like many people have commented, they are allowing the Switch hardware to gain traction and win over people with the design and function, as well as getting a chance to see what features people want (apps, online, etc.) so by the time the Holidays roll around, they can have closer to a full suite of features when the SCD and their paid online service launches.

It might also explain why NBA 2K18, FIFA18 and Skyrim are all coming out in the Fall, besides that being when the sports games usually release, it may also be why they decided on those franchises to be the titles they put on the Switch. A few interesting things of note, Peter Moore says it's a custom built version for the Switch but they confirmed it is actually FIFA18, it is also being built by the same team working on the other versions, and, perhaps the oddest detail to me, it's releasing the same date as the other versions. With how terribly the Wii U ports tended to be announced and marketed (or rather not announced and marketed), given delayed dates, and having features just not be present, this actually sounds a little promising for once. Also, while Skyrim may not named as such right now, it appears to be the remastered Special Edition. We also don't know when Steep will release and despite Ubi saying they have more unannounced games in development for the Switch and being a company that loves to be on a new platform day one, they only have Just Dance announced for the forseeable future. Even Rayman Legends isn't announced for at least launch window, which seems odd when you'd think that now is the time to release that game. Then there is also Project Sonic 2017 with is a winter title also being released on the other platforms. Seems a little odd that so many big 3rd party titles are sitting at the back half of the year.

This might also be a coincidence and they are trying to pack the holidays like Nintendo is with big titles for the system, but maybe they also know that the games will run better with the additional hardware.

It seems like a bit of a stretch, but the SCD from the patents will presumably be more than just an add-on to provide more power but can be used for cloud computing and such. It's possible that it can provide benefit not just in docked mode, but cloud/online features while you are out in portable mode, adding value for everyone no matter how you use the Switch. I've also speculated that by buying an SCD, you might be able to forgo the online fee, since you might hypothetically be helping to provide computing power for the cloud and that would also provide the option for vanilla Switch owners to get some of the cloud benefits, without an SCD, by paying the online fee.

If there is any truth to this, maybe they are waiting until E3 to announce the SCD, which also seems like the most likely time Nintendo announces more upcoming games. That would also likely include more AAA third party games, and could explain why they and Nintendo wanted to wait.
Seems like a bit of a stretch yea.

First you have to consider portable mode which will have.no benefit from the scd. The scd will mainly be for 4K tvs. Secondly if FIFA is based on the 360 engine, and also rayman legends and skyrim should have no problem running on og switch.
 

Cuburt

Member
Having an SCD would only complicate the concept of the Switch which is the last thing Nintendo wants.
I think it would all depend on execution. It's clear that Nintendo is playing it extremely safe to not confuse the messaging and the core concept of the Switch, but I think unlike other speculation from people about potential portable only Switch Lites/Mini or stationary Switch Consoles, an SCD offers something different. Being that it would form a foundation for cloud computing, it could be something that Switch owners can benefit from whether or not they choose to purchase one. Some of that could mean cloud services that are included with their paid online fee, and perhaps some other cloud services are things you'd only be able to access by paying more, or by owning an SCD yourself. It shouldn't confused the concept if you can play the same games with or without an SCD, and even if the performance enhancements are modest, the cloud potential could also mean even bigger computing benefits you can have beyond the actual power in the chip in the SCD, and it can extend to people without an SCD. If Nintendo wanted, that computing power could even extend beyond to people that don't even own Nintendo hardware. It's in that way that the SCD can be sold as an upgrade to entice early adopters in large numbers, but the end game is to build a massive server network that can offer far more opportunity beyond a little chip to boost your system that it plugs into.

Seems like a bit of a stretch yea.

First you have to consider docked mode which will have.no benefit from the scd. The scd will mainly be for 4K tvs. Secondly if FIFA is based on the 360 engine, and also rayman legends and skyrim should have no problem running on og switch.
I haven't been following the speculation on the Foxconn specs enough to know if that's what people are saying the specs point to, a PS4 Pro-like upgrade, but I don't know why they'd have an SCD if it's just for 4K output, based on what the patents say.

FIFA being based on a PS360 engine is still rumor at this point. Peter Moore responded directly to the rumor and while he obviously wouldn't say more than what was already said, what is the point in responding if it was true and would be proven to be true later?

Rayman wasn't an example of power but a question as to why even a title like that isn't around for a "launch window". It's an odd omission and if it's another title 3rd parties are backloading in the holidays, there has to be a reason so many 3rd parties decided to do this. Like you know EA would just fart out a port whenever they feel like, but Ubisoft has several titles in development and would likely have been one of the first with dev kits. Doesn't all necessarily point to an SCD but it points to a broader strategy that Nintendo may have worked out with 3rd parties.

Also I think the games would still have to work without the SCD just to not leave out the people who don't want to buy one, but I think if they were selling it as a 4K upgrade with power for some performance boosts, not unlike a PS4 Pro, to reach the full potential a SCD can have, they aren't going to want people to only think it's for people who have a 4K TVs, like what Sony is doing with the Pro, but they will push it as a cloud server that also can boost performance, especially since Nintendo might think supporting 4K TVs is important for customers who have them, but given their past stance on HD and other slowly adopted standards, they could give a fuck about chasing 4K gaming at the moment. They'd care more about the performance it would improve, I'd assume. Besides, this wouldn't be like developers building for one set of specs and getting this thrown at them later, if this rumor is to be believed, they have this other dev kit SCD already produced for cross-development from the beginning, or at least close to it, with this add on planned from the start instead of tacked on after the fact.
 

Theonik

Member
PS4 Pro is $400, so I'm not sure why $500 would be too much for something as powerful as PS4 Pro (or even more powerful) but with the added feature of transforming into a handheld at will.
Scorpio.

I'm actually serious this time, PS4 Pro is great value at $399 and Scorpio will sit at $499-599, but by the time the Switch add-on comes out the competing systems will be out for years and if these are the specs it releases with as an add-on in 2 years or so it will be a tough sell unless it's under $199
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
So we're still clinging to this SCD pipedream, are we?

Come on, people. That's not remotely what the Switch (or Nintendo) is about and you know it.
 

Theonik

Member
So we're still clinging to this SCD pipedream, are we?

Come on, people. That's not remotely what the Switch (or Nintendo) is about and you know it.
I'd buy an SCD dock. As the Switch stands though it might be a decent Vita replacement which is why I am getting one. *shrug*
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
I'd buy an SCD dock. As the Switch stands though it might be a decent Vita replacement which is why I am getting one. *shrug*

Just think about that for a moment. What are you actually achieving by docking a Switch to a SCD, instead of just using a SCD standalone. Ostensibly it would replace the SoC and RAM, take over input & output... so the purpose of the docked device would be what, being a cartridge and SD card slot?
 
Scorpio.

I'm actually serious this time, PS4 Pro is great value at $399 and Scorpio will sit at $499-599, but by the time the Switch add-on comes out the competing systems will be out for years and if these are the specs it releases with as an add-on in 2 years or so it will be a tough sell unless it's under $199
I almost wouldn't be too surprised if the Scorpio is lower than 500. Actually I half expect it to be $400, because Microsoft and Sony are usually neck and neck in undercutting each other for gaining a larger install base.
 
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