CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
Still waiting, by the way.
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The Last Night: IGN Article [Quack Quack Slurp Slurp]
- Thread starter Bits N Pieces
- Start date
Still waiting, by the way.
Last_colossi
Member
Umm, I think everyone here needs to calm down a bit, firstly we know nothing of the current state of the games writing and story therefore it could be either extremely misogynistic or nothing of the sort, so I think at this point pretty much everyone here has a valid argument until proven otherwise once the game releases and once it does release we can then form a proper critic of what the game does do wrong or even right.
In the mean time though I think we should probably stop the name calling and insults at each other because that isn't really solving anything is it?
(Also I think it's totally reasonable for people here to boycott the game based just on the creator's views, voting with your wallet will always make the biggest impact)
In the mean time though I think we should probably stop the name calling and insults at each other because that isn't really solving anything is it?
(Also I think it's totally reasonable for people here to boycott the game based just on the creator's views, voting with your wallet will always make the biggest impact)
bigjeffery
Member
And simply reading Mein Kampf doesn't immediately make you a Nazi either. Just like how being interested in this game doesn't make you a gamer gater. Or how watching Wonder Woman doesn't make you pro-IDF, or reading Brian Sanderson books doesn't make you an insane Mormon.
I'm a superman with a galaxy brain who is capable of interacting with art while remaining ideologically unscathed.
the_darkness
Banned
I was referencing a particularly bold and reductive statement made earlier in the thread that the game is "about misogyny".
Again, please refrain from simply fabricating bullshit.
LiquidSolid
Member
It's amusing in a sad way. "I totally don't share his beliefs but I'm going to spend 8 pages defending him and talking around the issue."
People can feel free to support this game but I'll feel free to judge them for doing so.
Arkage
Banned
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...unk-an-interview-with-the-last-night-designer
I just read through this interview, which has a bit of clarification. Specifically on his old tweet about the the game showing a feminist dystopia:
From my perspective he's a non-native English speaker who waded into GG and read some articles on extremist feminism perspectives (which do exist in very small quantities) and got riled up about "feminism" in general. Passing off extremist feminism as general feminism is a tactic conservatives have been using for a while to manipulate people against the movement, and it seemingly worked on him. He also tried to play language games (egalitarian vs feminism, MRA vs social problems specific to men) in a language he knows pretty well, but not well enough to sort through these definitions and concepts in enough depth to know what they really stand for. He seems like a moderate-type like Colin Moriarty but less libertarian and more progressive, at least according to the claims he makes in the interview (pro-feminism, pro-universal income, pro-diversity, etc). He might rag on some of the leftist progressive stuff, as is apparent in the few tweets I saw he "liked" about consent posters at a cosplay convention, but I view that as groan worthy rather than an insidious ideological statement.
His claim of having a change of heart apparently happened after GG, but prior to the E3 hype, which would lend some credence to the idea that it was a genuine change, though I'm basing this timeline off the few hints in the interview. And his team/publisher strongly pushed back against it, so I would be surprised at this point of the game contained pro-GG stuff or anti-feminism stuff.
But I'm also a believer in change, in general. That people make big mistakes, that people can change beliefs, and that more than one chance is deserved in this age of social media shitstorms. The proof is in the pudding of course, but I remain optimistic about this game and optimistic that the dev is being honest with us about his current mindset.
Yup, they should do more videos like this one
And still really excited for this game, easily the best looking one at thos year's conference
Let me put another example ha, Borges was in favor of a dictatorship that dropped people alive to the sea (well, river, anyway). He expressed his ideas on some of his books. Yet, Borges is probably the best, or one of the better writters in 20th century.
Another example: Heidegger. He was a nazi, support nazism on many articles and yet, he is one of the most important philosophers of last century.
Should I stop reading their creations then? I dont think so.
CannonFodder52
Member
I'm still trying to find my style. I want to approach things dispassionately but honestly and openly, not come to off as an apologist or devil's advocate.
I'll end up forgetting about this game again, either way. That Octopath Traveller game looks like a cooler modern take on 16 bit-like sprite art anyway.
Comparisons are not equally the same.
I can see his misogyny in his "Three Musicians", none of them are female! Surely that belief made him paint that picture.
Lol
I have read the book suggested by the mod at that time. Great book indeed. Still, I think that I wont filter authors depending if they support horrible ideas.
Salty Rice
Member
First they have to buy humble bundle and now they cover gamergate trash...
SpaceCadetKeon
Banned
Vivian James...Vivian James...why would they name their mascot "Vivian James?" Aren't they this awful group focused on video ga-ohhh...
not sure why this needs to be repeated over and over again. a month before E3 he was liking tweets by ian miles cheong, etc. so when they come out and say that the story has changed while in the same breath saying that tim soret has changed over the years, which is then immediately proven to be a lie, it makes sense not to take them at their word on the story changing either. also where in the statements by raw fury or that one guy on the dev team is "strongly pushed back" applicable? it's almost entirely "this isn't the tim we know"
bigjeffery
Member
Aren't they? Even ignoring the fucked up pro-imperialist, pro-interventionist messages in WW, the star not only is staunchly pro-IDF, but served in it. Supporting the movie supports her.
VibratingDonkey
Member
I edited my post where I then wrote that reading "Mein Kampf" for educational purposes also isn't the same thing as reading it for entertainment.
You can read it for a lot of reasons, enjoyment is not one of them. Not only because of the contents but because it's just shitty written in general. If someone claims he reads that thing for entartainment purposes because he can distance himself from all the ridiculous inhumane shit in there then I won't believe him. The book wasn't written for that.
Wow so capable. I wonder how you can enjoy a story that propagates misoyny with that galaxy brain of yours. Now I'm envious.
Too bad the story of WW isn't some blatant pro-IDF bullshit. So no, they aren't the same.
Also I didn't enjoy the movie that much for the exact reasons you just brought up. Guess my brain isn't galactic enough to distance myself from that bullshit.
You forgot this
Also Tim Soret in 2017: Likes tweets by Ian Miles Cheong, Mark Kern, and other Gamergaters
Response: Yes he's definitely lying, there's your concrete evidence
Kinda missed that part that completely negates your argument, huh
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
This darkness fellow sure has some interesting views.
Typically, when people have changes of heart or "become woke" as the people like to say, they start really getting the message out there that they've changed. And keep getting the message out there.
Tim Soret has not retweeted, liked, or posted any media that reverses his position whatsoever. As far as I'm aware. He's posted that he himself has changed, but I'm pouring a healthy amount of skepticism on going radar silent here.
bigjeffery
Member
This is a little off topic, but I think it's pretty stupid to pretend like "enjoyability" or "entertainment" are somehow objective quantities that can be measured and used to judge if a work has value or not.
I've never read Mein Kampf so I can't comment on how much of a blast it is to read, but I don't see it as an impossibility that someone would read it and think it's ideologically moronic while also enjoying it. I mean, being able to keep the two separate is how most people manage to sit through literally 90% of movies and television.
Do this game and Rain World have something in common? Did Rain World end up living up to expectations?
OT for this thread, but I can't buy The Last Night so...is Rain World similar and also good?
I don't give a fuck what this game ends up as. What it began as is FAR more important to me, and what it began as is shit and I will oppose it, period.
What people do when pressured just tells us about what they do when pressured. When people do what they WANT, that tells you much more about the person they actually are.
And YES, I care about who developers are when they insert this kind of motivation into the narrative of the game.
Fuck him and fuck this game, and also fuck anyone defending it. If that is part of a "dog pile" or a hive mind then I am happy that I am part of this community rather than the ones others adopt.
What people do when pressured just tells us about what they do when pressured. When people do what they WANT, that tells you much more about the person they actually are.
And YES, I care about who developers are when they insert this kind of motivation into the narrative of the game.
Fuck him and fuck this game, and also fuck anyone defending it. If that is part of a "dog pile" or a hive mind then I am happy that I am part of this community rather than the ones others adopt.
It does mean you support his beliefs, if those beliefs are central to his work as he had said they are. He was making the game as an anti-woman hate group inspired work of fiction. He explicitly said as much. If you like the game, and want to support the work, then you are in fact supporting his beliefs.
CannonFodder52
Member
I don't actually really remember a mod recommending a book back then. Anyways, different ideology, I'm just not interested in supporting him or his product.
Also, I'm sorry but I can't stop reading your posts in an elderly man's voice. I think it's your avatar and the content of some of your posts.
bigjeffery
Member
I get if people personally don't want to give the guy money. Getting upset at the PREPOSTEROUS claim that it's possible to play and enjoy something that's not 100% ideologically pure is peak-GAF.
It's a discussion forum, and one that is much more focused on social issues than most. People will discuss that.
Play what you want. Prepare to be called out on it if you choose to post here.
If someone enjoys that book for what it is, he's a Nazi. Straight up. I read most of it for the record. It's interesting to look at what the hell went trhough that guys head but that's it.
Again, if your galactic brain somehow manages to ignore that the entire premise of the game is to propagate misogyny and that the actual story has that premise then kudos to you. That story could be told like Blade Runner and I still would not be OK with it. I got something called morals.
I also edited my previous post to say that your WW comparison simply doesn't hold up.
I agree, but even this seems like a pretty subjective thing, no? Hell, it might even make for a more interesting game if it's presenting ideas and themes I vehemently disagree with.
Dude said a pro-misogyny message was the central theme of the game. Your idea of this being about 100% pure ideological purity is PREPOSTEROUS. It's peak-bigjeffery disingenuous bullshit.
CannonFodder52
Member
GAF is not a monolith. Although I do strive to be peak-GAF
rocketskates
Member
Game looks amazing
pretty sure we all got it after your first post. you're going to pirate the game. ok, congrats.
LOL for sure my rough english has something to do with that.
You talk like people are complaining about the dev liking pineapple on pizza.
Again, this isn't just some element that he has woven into the game. The entire freaking story premise is built on misogyny. Not in the thematical way, but in the propaganda way. How are you able to "distance" yourself from that while playing the game? How are you able to enjoy that? I'm not saying that you are in danger of being influenced by it, I'm asking how you would be able to enjoy a story like that.
Just to pick up your example form earlier. WW having a star who is pro IDF is not the same thing as the story in WW being pro IDF. It simply isn't. One I can distance myself from, the other would actively fuck up the movie for me.
LightofRohan
Member
Dang, this trailer/presentation is really impressive, I wish IGN would do this for more games E3 demo's. I love seeing the peaks and valleys of the trailer and how to create something compelling in such a short time-frame, impressive especially for a tiny team.
Hope they make more.
Hope they make more.
Sure is pretty, that's for sure. That's the most important part.
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
Story of their post history in the topic, really.
I honestly do agree with this. Something like Papers, Please is not exactly fun to play after a certain point - intentionally so - but still holds a lot of value for the message it is trying to convey. The only issue is when people pick up the wrong ideas from something instead of approaching 'dangerous' material in a scholarly fashion, but that's a difficult line to draw since you won't really know how someone might react until it is too late.
Still. Value isn't just intrinsically tied to much one 'enjoyed' something.
Clearly a lot of people??
As an aside, i'm willing to admit getting too emotionally charged in some of my responses and don't condone any further name calling. If the staff feels I was out of line, I'll gladly accept whatever they feel is fair for it, since it didn't exactly contribute very positively to the conversation. Not that I feel the_darkness' contributions have been of much value either, but others have been able to dissect their dishonesty in a far more elegant and uncharged way, and I feel that is far better than my own handling of it.
You get what you're saying right?
You're saying that because the game exists and presents you ideas and themes you disagree with (which likely are because they're trash ideas and themes) it might be more interesting.
That's like saying, I know this quiche is made with absolutely garbage cheese and moldy meat, but man it might be interesting!
Sure, it's interesting from a this food is completely inedible and would likely give you food poisoning view, but it's not even worth purchasing at all or even thinking about eating, is it?
Ok, compared to a movie that took hundreds to make vs a game that maybe only a few is making, odds are the latter are going to share the same views as the person in question.
Also: Wonder Woman's plot is simple & tried yet broad enough to be interpreted differently versus this unique story-line with evidence to support that it's propaganda for this "unique" movement.
Even all this: what exactly is stopping you from denouncing anyone from consuming both of these pieces of entertainment? You think Lovecraft's influence would fly if his works were created within this generation with his vocal ideals out of the open thanks to modern visual/audio technology? (well, with this orange asshole who was handed nuclear weapons this year....fuck)
the_darkness
Banned
No.
That tells me he still has some shitty opinions but it doesn't tell me what his game is about.
Actualy no, im not interested, i'm Just joking. I wanted to do the joke again with claw, Amazing Underrated 90s game, and to talk about my view
No it's not, because clearly the game looks really great. It has a really cool art style, looks interesting to play, etc. It's more like watching Passion of the Christ as an Atheist or something.
bigjeffery
Member
I think that anyone feels the need to call someone out for simply being interested in trying something with a bad ideology is the problem.
First off, my Wonder Woman comparison holds up perfectly.
Secondly, if someone plays through the game, and walks away disagreeing with the creator's point, what's the harm?
My problem with most of the arguments in this thread is that people immediately assuming that anyone who plays the game is somehow consigning themselves to morally aligning with whatever message is in it, and I fundamentally disagree with that.
Its not about alignment. Its support for a piece of work that upholds a morally repugnant view. If you wanna play because you think its pretty, just say so.