Calling justified criticism "negativity" is unfair. I'm more than happy to discuss the positives, I'm just having trouble appreciating them with all the bad stuff in the way. I think I had unrealistically high expectations for these games off the back of the Sky games. Hopefully on a second play the better elements will shine through for me.
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The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 2 |OT| Class Reunion
- Thread starter Dandy Crocodile
- Start date
Calling justified criticism "negativity" is unfair. I'm more than happy to discuss the positives, I'm just having trouble appreciating them with all the bad stuff in the way. I think I had unrealistically high expectations for these games off the back of the Sky games. Hopefully on a second play the better elements will shine through for me.
It's more likely that it's about three weeks since the EU release so people are putting their thoughts together on it.
I've been quite happy to point out the bits I thought were awesome (and the combat is a real strong point of both games). I do think both ToCS games suffer badly from a repetitive quest structure. In particular, the bloated cast of ToCSII combined with constant lack of letting the party win any encounter with an npc (to show off how cool both the enemies and their saviours are) is far, far overused. When it becomes predictable that a) the enemy will kneel before going 'guess I'll have to stop holding back', b) the party will go 'now we're stuffed!' And c) some of their dozen hyper-competent allies will jump in from a nearby high point, it's a bit overdone.
Having said that, the continued worldbuilding is another strong point- I thought the depiction of Olivier's transition from decadent traveller to political animal, complete with having carried forward the lessons he learned in ToTS, was great, I like Sara and loads more too. I just find the dwelling on the horrors of mechanised warfare contrasted with the god-awful Saturday-morning cartoon approach to the actual battles the party take part in, as three dozen different martial artists knock each other around to virtually zero real consequence in fight after fight, to be really silly.
I don't really see how it's unwarranted negativity to point out the things I feel are real strong points of a game (combat, bits of dialogue, specific characters) and the flaws I think really stop it being one of the greats (too many superpowered npcs removing any sense of victory from the main cast, little consequence or resolution to most battles between them all, repetitive structure/pacing).
It's also that I think I just like the sense of classic adventure with the Bracers in ToTS, but find idealised high-school fantasy school drama to be just tedious. Probably in the same way I felt playing Valkyrie Chronicles 2- that idea of fantasy military academy as a sequel, a way of packing a fresh cast of teenagers, growing pains, exams and combat all into the same game, just feels a bit naff to me. Maybe it's just that I'm about 20 years older than the target audience and am really in it for the story and the combat rather than dreams of 'Friendship is Magic' amidst an idealised fantasy secondary school life.
That was pretty much how I felt when i got to the epilogue tbh lol
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Wow guys, I never said it was unwarranted. No need to jump me. I have a lot of the same complaints (although I ultimately very much enjoyed the game). I was just commenting on how the thread was bumped with seemingly nothing but negative impressions.
its especially weird because idk, Rean just came back from
fighting on the freaking front lines
It's weird. Absolutely not bagging on anyone, but the CS2 OT has got to be the most consistently negative OT I've ever been a part of on GAF. Like, I joined towards the tail end of this thread's life cycle so most of the people who really enjoyed it are gone, but yeah it's been pretty dang negative from what I've experienced.
Even the ZTD OT felt less negative, lol.
He has similar scenes in the first game with Emma and what's her name
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Critical does not equal negative. I don't think I've read many complaints in here that I don't agree with. Cold Steel II is still one my favorite games this year. (A year were I've played the Witness, Uncharted 4, ZTD, Persona 5, Dark Souls 3, Yakuza 5, Blood and Wine and what not, just a pretty damn good year for games.)
You can love a game without defending all of it's flaws.
And even with all of it's flaws and me overall still preferring lots of structural things about the sky games. It's nowhere near me being disappointed with FF a series that just has become something that doesn't have strong appeal for me anymore. That one actually hurts.
You can love a game without defending all of it's flaws.
And even with all of it's flaws and me overall still preferring lots of structural things about the sky games. It's nowhere near me being disappointed with FF a series that just has become something that doesn't have strong appeal for me anymore. That one actually hurts.
It guess it just speaks volumes about how badly Falcom dropped the ball. They set certain expectations and failed to deliver on them pretty bad.
I'm hoping CS3 will be better but ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Glitter and Gold
Banned
I agree that critical doesn't equal negative
I think this thread has been really negative though lol.
To the point where people have posted in here that they're shocked at the negative reception, or that they're holding off on the game because of the complaints in here.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
But that's the thing I'm saying people mistaking criticism for pure negativism.
Like actually people should read what is said and think about how severe some of the things said actually are, which in actually they aren't really.
Especially when people forgive all kind of shitty design, like bad story or awfully paced open world or bad characters. In that context it's not even that negative.
Also if people are holding off because the things that are said good on them if they think the things that have been mentioned are total deal breakers. I'm all for trails growing bigger but if people don't think it's for them it's not for them and I'm happy a discussion could help them determine that.
Don't like the idea of sugar coating and someone ending up feeling mislead. Like that happened to me with XIII/Diablo 3 and I've been salty ever since :-x.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
um
Like I'm all for balanced criticism. I just don't really agree that this thread is balanced at all. I think there's a few posters that make a really big deal exaggerating every gripe they have with the game in real time as they play and as a result I think a lot of people that are a bit more positive with the game don't even bother with this thread anymore.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
You're being silly now, that's just being selective as hell with reading. I read the last 5 pages and I stand by my statement it's mainly well deserved critic.
In his defense, i'm pretty sure he's exaggerating for comic effect
Cherrypicking aside, the rest of his criticisms have been reasonable
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I'm not really commenting on whether his or anyone's criticism's are valid or not
just the tone of the posts in here and how they've contributed to a really negative thread
Here's the post I'm referring to...
They aren't commenting on the criticism, just the general tone of the thread. The "backlash"
This post was responded to by most of the active members telling them that they actually think the game is really good, or their GOTY and would easily recommend it to anyone interested
That's the negativity I'm referring to. That somehow despite being in a room full of people who all seem to like the game on some level, all the discussion this thread manages to yield are complaints.
just the tone of the posts in here and how they've contributed to a really negative thread
Here's the post I'm referring to...
They aren't commenting on the criticism, just the general tone of the thread. The "backlash"
This post was responded to by most of the active members telling them that they actually think the game is really good, or their GOTY and would easily recommend it to anyone interested
That's the negativity I'm referring to. That somehow despite being in a room full of people who all seem to like the game on some level, all the discussion this thread manages to yield are complaints.
I shudder to think of your thoughts on ME3...
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Like I said earlier, it's still on the shortlist for GOTY, but there's a few (and a good bit fewer than CS1 mind) inexplicable just-cuz design goals, additions, and omissions that just drag down a 9.5/10 game for no good reason.
I'm like "no, dont do eeeeeeet" but technical and developmental scene it came from had its cut.
But then I listen to the OST and feel positive again.
Are they lying though?
I'm like "no, dont do eeeeeeet" but technical and developmental scene it came from had its cut.
But then I listen to the OST and feel positive again.
Are they lying though?
I liked me3 lol. The ending was w/e but the gameplay was solid.
I was mostly disappointed in how 2 basically ditched all the rpg bits instead of refining it.
Fair points, agree with all of that, good stuff.
I think it speak to how CS2 fails to satisfy the expectations of fans on some fundamental areas of the game, while also simultaneously remaining a compelling entry in a beloved franchise. If people aren't invested in the series the way we are, I don't think most of us would even bother posting criticisms or complaining about certain things this late into the game. This is a 60+ hour sequel to a 70+ hour game, and forms a sequel entry to a bunch of 50-80 hour games that came before it. If it's really awful, we would have all bailed out by now. I know I would have.
Even complaining about how character dynamics and blue balling is handled in CS2 shows that I actually care about the characters themselves and their role in the world, and I voice my unhappiness because I -want- to see it done better since I love them all so much.
It guess it just speaks volumes about how badly Falcom dropped the ball. They set certain expectations and failed to deliver on them pretty bad.
I'm hoping CS3 will be better but ¯_(ツ
I think this is where I'm at too- despite ultimately enjoying the game, and finding it compelling enough to pour 50+ hours in, I found it disappointing due to high expectations following the previous games. I wouldn't have bothered going into such lengthy criticism of something I have no investment in, I'd just ditch it and move on. I'll be back for ToCSIII as soon as it's released here, maybe a shake-up in structure caused by the ending of TOCSII will address much of my criticism of the last two parts, but even if it doesn't the combat, characters and worldbuilding will have me see it through.
Regarding lots of criticism contrasted with broadly positive impressions, I also think people just aren't posting the stuff that Trails as a series is good at in general and provides a major attraction. One of the things I love about the series is the world building, the slow-burn buildup of tension between factions over multiple games. I thought my posts were long enough without me repeating that stuff, it's kind of a given here.
I'm too busy getting ready to put ~60 hours into NG+ to bother posting in here about how much I love it!
It's also always just easier for me to converse in person about the stuff in these games.
It guess it just speaks volumes about how badly Falcom dropped the ball. They set certain expectations and failed to deliver on them pretty bad.
I'm hoping CS3 will be better but ¯_(ツ
This is basically how I feel. Was CS2 a bad game? Of course it wasn't, I'd never have sunk over 100 hours into it if it was. It just doesn't really live up to my expectations of a Trails game. Everything I don't like about it is something that didn't occur in previous games, at least not to a degree where I'd feel it warrented complaining about.
I just really hope CS3 doesn't use the school setting again, going back to that in the epilogue is painful given how little I care about it. I don't know if I can even drag my arse through this final dungeon when I can just ditch it to play FFXV instead.
The main positive I think it's that it'll make me appreciate TitS 3rd even more next year. There's a lot of great stuff due next year but that's absolutely top of my list.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Honestly I appreciate this about this thread. People ain't mincing words makes it easier to know what you're getting into. Too often people let hype cloud their judgement and it sucks for people getting swept up into it.
BassForever
Member
The opposite can happen too see pre release final fantasy 15 negativity vs actual quality of the game.
I love CS2 and think its strengths far outweigh its weaknesses that certain people are being very hyperbolic about imo. Its honestly gotten to the point where I mostly avoid the trails threads the way I have Persona threads.
Alright, finally decided that I will play this game in the between my decrease in playing time for FFXV (somewhere along December this'll happen) and the arrival of Gravity Rush 2 (january 19th in Europe). It'll arrive on Tuesday, can't wait to finally start it! The first game was one of my favourite games I have played this year, so I have high hopes for this one, especially seeing as it seems to be regarded as even slightly better than the first one.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Well for one pre release is a bit different, given that post release honeymoon on FFXV was something else. That game has real dealbreaker problems(like problems other games get super torn apart for) only few people actually mentioned. It was super easy to get swept up in the positivity I certainly would have regretted a purchase(and I was close too with so many people being high on it).
I've been at a friends and since gotten my hands on it for a good few hours. It's a fun game but honestly fun is a very weak motivator for me currently to invest fully into a game like that. Some of the praise is also not deserved. I cannot understand how the open world design (it is soooo padded) of that game gets away with it from what I've played. The dungeons I was shown and the feeling walking through them are pretty damn cool though.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
This thread was pretty good back when the game came out, but it does seem to be that most people who have played the game more than a month out from release have been really negative on it. It's kind of weird how quickly the thread has shifted in tone.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
This is what I was getting at, yeah.
Basileus777
Member
I don't really mind it except people keep getting the impression that the reception for this game is a lot more negative than it really is because of this effect.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
That's on the people then. Srsly if people can't take reading criticism it's their loss. It's ridiculous that somehow pointing out flaws in a good/great game is taken as negativity. Be level headed. It's better then what happened for NMS, FFXV, countless others. People/Communities trying to force unearned positivity has never done a game any good(Basically every Blizz game).
ShadowSoldier89
Member
yea...game that looked shakey prerelease turned out worse than I couldve possibly imagined...
CS2 has some issues that ive talked about at length in here though. However the game is just too fantastic for it to matter, and the core gameplay is just so damn good.
Bear in mind that the EU release was only three weeks ago, it hasn't even been out for a month here yet. I picked it up and started playing it on the day of release here (11 November).
I was playing this a week before it's official release in the EU. I bought both PS3 and Vita copies and the full dlc pack. I'm no half-arsed late-comer, I'm a full-blown Kiseki addict. If I seem overly critical it's because I know the standards these games need to live up to. Was it a bad game? Of course not, it just wasn't in the same league as the Sky games. I don't want people to avoid buying the game, it's a very good JRPG and any fan of the genre needs to play both installments.
Basileus777
Member
I don't know about putting past Trails games on a pedestal like that. If anything most of the criticisms I see leveled against CS2 I think SC did worse, especially in terms of pacing and structure. I actually found it harder to overlook those flaws back with the Sky games because of how slow and dull the combat was. Other than that stretch where you had to visit the shrines in succession (the worst part of the game), CS2 never felt like a chore to play despite being the longest localized Trails game.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
It's not a pedestal.
The bonding system does Cold Steel 0 favors and feels more like chasing a trend than anything else. I got a real sense of the characters after Sky part 1 and part 2 only carried that torch further. I've platinumed Cold Steel I and I see the moments but it does not come together. It pales with how Sky chooses to trickle in its characters and gives each one moments too shine. In Cold Steel I could finish the game basically not really learning anything about certain characters, leaving them as the anime stereotypes that they give the first impression of.
Sky just has less problems all around and feels more like a self assured and confident game. So many elements of Cold Steel that annoy me are basically badly copy catted popular trends/mechanics/designs. And underneath all that there is still the same great core that captivated me with sky.
CS2 had the shortest playtime for me. The pacing in SC was pretty bad at the start but improved after the first couple of chapters. The pacing in CS2 got worse and worse until it eventual ground to a complete halt.
Unlike CS2, I was invested in the characters and the story actually actually progressed in an interesting manner. The final dungeon was interesting and I wanted to explore to find out about it and what it was, definitely not the case in CS2. The threat steadily increased to an interesting climax instead of fizzling out in a pointless switching of sides. Estelle and Joshua weren't trying to be neutral, they were fighting for a cause. SC ended when the story ended, CS2 took me ten hours more after the last bit of story happened.
I haven't even bothered to factor in all the
hitting on under age girls in CS2.
SC isn't perfect but comparing it's flaws to those in CS2 is pretty ridiculous.
Basileus777
Member
You need to use spoiler tags.
Oh, now even comparing them is ridiculous? No pedestal indeed.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair if that's the extent of your argument it probably is.
Basileus777
Member
This is the type of hyperbole that actually does make discussion difficult.
Is this a joke?
Dragon1893
Member
Well, I've certainly adjusted my expectations lol.
I'm sure I'll enjoy it as much as the first game but reading entire pages where literally every comment is only pointing out negative things definitely made it drop in my priorities. For some reason I was under the impression that this was a significant improvement over the first which obviously doesn't seem to be true.
I tried to discuss it and you responded with a single sentence.
I've criticised SC plenty of times in the relevant thread, it's by no means perfect either. It is just a long way ahead of CS2 in my opinion.
It is a significant improvement over the first despite the criticisms being levied at it.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
If you really read the criticism and judged by your knowledge on the first game and think yeah those are kind of dealbreakers to get the game now, good on you. I think it's a good thing when a discussion helps people like that. Better than painting an inaccurate picture. Throwing shade: Like instead, you know trying to convince people that story ain't that important anyway in a series with 15 iterations that largely was praised for its story/characters for more than half of them :-x.
Playing a game with good timing only helps one's enjoyment of it.