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[KevinKeene]

I've followed the whole Kendrick Lamar-thing and I had planned to make this thread to clarify on some general ideas regarding the whole 'n-word' debate - which I will write out as 'nigger', because calling it 'the n-word' is part of the problem.

Every so often when another debate about the word 'nigger' is triggered, you'll see smart people turn snarky and make statements a la 'white people want to say nigger so badly, huh' or posed as a question, 'why do you want to say it so badly?'

This is where these people have it all wrong. Nobody *wants* to say it. Nobody but black people who apparently cannot live without the word, using it themselves casually or in songs in over abundance, be it 'nigger' or 'nigga' (what a dumb differentitation. No European will hear the difference when you use it around one).

Here's the thing: We're already using 'nigger'. How so? Let's see: everyone agrees that 'nigger' is a hateful term for black people, right? So if I were to describe a black person's appearance, I wouldn't say 'he's a nigger', because that be hateful. But I'm not hating anyone. So I'll say 'he's black' or some variant of that. Now, IF I'm in a situation in which I intended to verbally hurt a black person, then I would use the word 'nigger'. Hateful? Yes, but that's the point then, isn't it?

So, since it is generally agreed upon that 'nigger' is a hateful slur (of course, some fringe racists will use it casually to describe black people, but those aren't the masses), we should be able to agree that there actualy isn't a ban on the word. You use it when you want to hurt, you don't use it otherwise. Ofc, using it as part of historical context makes sense, too. I wouldn't want to watch a movie about slavery that Disney-fies the horrors of the past. Right?

Which brings us to the problem of the present: Kendrick Lamar's songs. Or hiphop/rap songs in general: DONT fill your songs with a shitty hateful slur! Ffs! This causes two obvious problems:

1) It normalizes this hateful slur by using it in contexts that aren't hateful. No. "Nigger" is a hateful slur. Stop using it. It's the same with any swear word. I don't want to live in a world where words like asshole, fucker, cunt, etc are normalized, so I wouldn't wanna hear them in every 2nd song. What shitty artist are you when you can't write a good song without cursing? Unless you're a 13 yo edgelord, it's just ... embarrassing. Using a word that slave masters used to oppress you isnlt empowering. It's just making you look really silly.

2) The whole 'only black people get to say it'. No. As explained above, non-black people don't actually have a desire to say it/say it anyway in its intended way (as means to verbally hate). However, it is black people who keep making a big deal of it a la 'Nu-uh, YOU cannot say it, I can. You no. I yes.'. This is bullshit.
No matter the history, if you cannot grasp that making a word's usage exclusive to a group if people based on their skin color, THAT is racist. It is. Not that it's necessary, but let's make it 100% obvious:
"Only whote people are allowed to say apple. Non-whites have to call this fruit 'round pear'". Sounds racists? Probably because it'd be racist.

The point is: white people don't want to say 'nigger' so badly. The just want black people to shut it with their constant, childish 'nu-uh, you mustn't say the word!'-attitude, rubbing it into the world's face at any given (or not given) opportunity. "We" don't want to say. We want equal treatment and we want you to stop using it casually. Because for some reason, some of us realize that a world without the usage of the word 'nigger' would be a better world. Yeah, yeah, you want to 'stick it' to white people, but if that's your choice, it's also your fault for continuously stirring up unneeded aggression and violence. You can do that. Or let it go. Your choice, dear black people.


PS: Inviting a white person to sing a sing full of the word 'nigger' and then complaining when she sings along as intended - yeah, fuck Kendrick Lamar. It's like some people WANT conflict.

 

[King of Foxes]

I think there are plenty who want to say it with good or bad intent but like gook, chink or kike it SHOULDNT be said by anyone.

Making a word popular in a sub culture then crying foul when a different skin color uses it is just plain stupid and actually racist.

 

[betrayal]

The core of the problem is not "nigger" or some other similar words. Discussing about what groups of people can use and say specific words is. It creates the illusion that people are indeed different and therefore have different rights and must use different words to communicate.
It's the same misleading logic with minorities in general. For progressives, in an ideal world, all people are worth the same, which imo is cool and already the case. But they divide people by creating seperate groups with different rights, words and responsibilities. By doing so they are actively creating race separation, distrust and anger, which ironically are the things they do not want.

Sure, the word "nigger" can be offensive. But as always in live it is a matter of interpretation. Nothing is good or bad in our live, but thinking makes it so. Free thinking and free speech are the highest goods in our society. That is what makes us human. But by creating real and verbal safe spaces and allowing everyone to be offended by everything, we are actively fighting free thinking and free speech. There should be no words on this planet, that only some people can use. Either everyone can, or no one.

 

[David Ricardo]

Why do you need to write the word 14 times (13 in the op + 1 on the title)?

You seem to understand it's hurtful given that you wrote: "You use it when you want to hurt, you don't use it otherwise."

I am all for freedom of speech and against political correctness. I came here for it. As Jordan Peterson says, 'sometimes you need to risk being offensive in order to think'. But, in this case, I don't see the need to use the word at all. You could have used "n-word" or "nixxxr" and get your point across without offending anybody.

If we want to have a conversation about this word, we need people from both sides to participate. We should try to be respectful and calm. How are you going to have a conversation about a "hot" topic if you start it by horriby offending people on one of the sides of the debate?

Freedom of speech is a very powerful tool, but with great power comes great responsibility. I don't think you are up to the task.

 

[betrayal]

You could have used "n-word" or "nixxxr" and get your point across without offending anybody.

He didn't direct the word to anyone specific, therefore he did not insult anyone and it really means nothing. Context matters, as always in life. So who did he offend?

And what if he's black? You still think he offended someone? ...and voilà, here's your problem.

PS: Just to clarify, imo this word if clearly an insult, if said to people. But like i said, allowing some people to use it and others not only fuels many bad things.

 

[Moneal]

Why do you need to write the word 14 times (13 in the op + 1 on the title)?

You seem to understand it's hurtful given that you wrote: "You use it when you want to hurt, you don't use it otherwise."

I am all for freedom of speech and against political correctness. I came here for it. As Jordan Peterson says, 'sometimes you need to risk being offensive in order to think'. But, in this case, I don't see the need to use the word at all. You could have used "n-word" or "nixxxr" and get your point across without offending anybody.

If we want to have a conversation about this word, we need people from both sides to participate. We should try to be respectful and calm. How are you going to have a conversation about a "hot" topic if you start it by horriby offending people on one of the sides of the debate?

Freedom of speech is a very powerful tool, but with great power comes great responsibility. I don't think you are up to the task.

The problem with calling it the n-word or xing out letters is that it gives the word more power and makes it special. I see it kinda how Voldermort's name is in the Harry Potter world. Them going around saying he who must not be named, gave him more power and mystique.

When you approach something that seems to have the power the word has over people, you need to be real. Calling it the n-word isn't being real about the word. Kid gloves aren't going to work when the use of the word by anyone outside a certain group is considered racist, no matter the context.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Nobody *wants* to say it. Nobody but black people who apparently cannot live without the word, using it themselves casually or in songs in over abundance, be it 'nigger' or 'nigga' (what a dumb differentitation. No European will hear the difference when you use it around one).

This is exactly why we don't want you saying it. YOU don't see the difference. When we hear YOU say it, we can tell you don't see the difference. When we see you argue about it on the internet we call tell you don't know the difference because you insist that black people refer to other black people as NIGGER and that couldn't be further from the truth. You never hear black people utter the word NIGGER unless we're recounting some shit a non-black person said to us. Black people very clearly see nigger and nigga as two different words. The black people that don't like the word nigga do so because they know from the outside it looks nonsensical. Every group has their words that are offensive from an outsider. Gays can call each other fags without issue. Fats can call each other fatasses without issue. Hell, I can call my mom a bitch, but best believe if you do it theres gonna be a problem. Shared struggle grants leeway. Thats why some black people don't trip when some Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Mexicans, Asians etc. say nigga.

 

[Dunki]

Honestly I do not want to say it as much as I do not want to say other more slur like words but if someone tells me that I can not do it because of who I am than this is challenging me and I will do it. This is also the Streisand or Red Button effect if you cant to something you want to.

But if black people are really upset about it. Then do not use it all around media, as part of your culture etc. Otherwise you are the ones I would call racist for not allowing to say something based on their skin color.

 

[Cato]

I am not american and I can not hear a difference between the hard R version and the "benign" version.
They all sound like they end in an R to me.
Maybe americans have different hearing? Not impossible as senses are individually tuned to the persons near environment.
Maybe I just can not pick out the difference since I am not used to american voices/talk? Possibly.

Edit:
From context I can most certainly see there is a difference when two close friends use it endearing in an action movie versus
when some use it in anger and hate.
Without the context I just can not tell the two apart and they sound like they are pronounced the same to me.
That makes things more difficult.


Anyway, it is a bad and disgusting word with a lot of baggage.
I think we should retire this word and stop using it. No one should use it, it is a bad word that has no place in society today.

Seriously, no one should use this word.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

but if someone tells me that I can not do it because of who I am than this is challenging me and I will do it.

How old are you?

 

[Dunki]

How old are you?

37 but this has nothing to do with it. I do not like censorship. I firmly believe in equality that means i treat everyone the same no matter their race or gender (religion is a bit different since you have chosen your ideology) Gender and race is something you do not have ANY influence in. So if you tell me I can not do something based on these two things I will ignore it and yes I would sometimes even provoke this person with doing the thing I was not allowed to do. But this depends how this person did talk to me. If you try to talk to me like I was a child I will acting more like a child. If you want a real discussion I will discuss this in a normal manner. Be a dick get a dickish response. It is pretty easy.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

So if you tell me I can not do something based on these two things I will ignore it and yes I would sometimes even provoke this person with doing the thing I was not allowed to do. But this depends how this person did talk to me. If you try to talk to me like I was a child I will acting more like a child.

Lol. Ok. I guess then your post style is consistent with your "beliefs." I would have pegged you at mid to late teens.

 

[David Ricardo]

He didn't direct the word to anyone specific, therefore he did not insult anyone and it really means nothing. Context matters, as always in life. So who did he offend?

And what if he's black? You still think he offended someone? ...and voilà, here's your problem.

PS: Just to clarify, imo this word if clearly an insult, if said to people. But like i said, allowing some people to use it and others not only fuels many bad things.

He says 'we' when talking about white people.

Just seeing a white person using the word is terribly offensive to black people in general, even if that person isn't referring to anybody or is even referring to himself (Bill Maher). It's hard to understand for us at first, but if you see videos of black people reacting to white people saying the word, you will understand.

When black people use it, it means we are together in this, we both are part of a group. It's a bonding word for them. Although I also think it subconsciously reinforces the idea that there is an 'us' and a 'them'.

But when white people use it it takes a whole other meaning. It means we are one thing and you are some other thing. And no matter what you do, you will never be like me, I'll never accept you as an equal. Basically it's like saying you are racist.

It isn't really easy for us to understand it because we probably have never been discriminated for the color of our skin. But many of us have been discriminated in the school in one way or the other: too fat, too short, big glasses... If that has happened to you, you probably remember all the other kids in the class laughing at you and you being upset. It hurt, didn't it? It didn't hurt because you actually cared about whatever physical characteristic of yours they were laughing about. It hurt because it feels like they are all against you. You can't trust them anymore. Your body makes you feel horrible because in the past this could be a sign of your life being in danger. Think 5.000 years ago living in egypt or wherever. If everybody in a group agrees somebody is not part of the group, it could mean that person being thrown out of the village or killed.

The capacity to have that feeling is in all of us. Maybe it's been too long since you last felt it. Or maybe you've never been bullied or discriminated in your life, god bless you. But that is something that would also terribly hurt you if it happened to you.

The problem with calling it the n-word or xing out letters is that it gives the word more power and makes it special. I see it kinda how Voldermort's name is in the Harry Potter world. Them going around saying he who must not be named, gave him more power and mystique.

When you approach something that seems to have the power the word has over people, you need to be real. Calling it the n-word isn't being real about the word. Kid gloves aren't going to work when the use of the word by anyone outside a certain group is considered racist, no matter the context.

The word, when used by a white guy, is always offensive to black people. You using it now doesn't remove any power from it. It just hurts any black person that happens to read it and makes it inmensely more difficult to have an actual real honest debate about the word.

The debate is about when the word should be used. If you start the debate by using it and offending the ones that you are trying to reach an agreement with, you just ruined the discussion before it even started.

 

[Dunki]

Lol. Ok. I guess then your post style is consistent with your "beliefs." I would have pegged you at mid to late teens.

My post style is also more consistent with my English knowledge if I could write in German it would be most likely more nuanced and not as aggressive since using simple English words will make it look like it IMO. But I am also totally honest about my opinions even through as I said before in German it would be maybe not as direct.

 

[Dunki]

It isn't really easy for us to understand it because we probably have never been discriminated for the color of our skin.

I was threaten with a knife on my throat in school because I was German and had the nerve to go out before these assholes. White people also endure racism. And especially because I experienced this moment I am against discrimination in any form based on your gender or skin color. That is also why I will never share the thought that people are allowed to do something or in this case are not allowed to do something because of their race or gender.

 

[JimboJones]

Would never want to use the term "taig" to describe a Catholic friend despite growing up catholic my self.
It's kinda bizzare with the whole black is ok to say it but white is not.
Maybe just both sides could try and cut it out?

 

[LegendOfKage]

Here's the thing: We're already using 'nigger'. How so? Let's see: everyone agrees that 'nigger' is a hateful term for black people, right? So if I were to describe a black person's appearance, I wouldn't say 'he's a nigger', because that be hateful. But I'm not hating anyone. So I'll say 'he's black' or some variant of that. Now, IF I'm in a situation in which I intended to verbally hurt a black person, then I would use the word 'nigger'. Hateful? Yes, but that's the point then, isn't it?

So, since it is generally agreed upon that 'nigger' is a hateful slur (of course, some fringe racists will use it casually to describe black people, but those aren't the masses), we should be able to agree that there actualy isn't a ban on the word. You use it when you want to hurt, you don't use it otherwise.

I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, agree with some of it, but wanted to address this point in particular. When you use a racial slur to refer to someone out of anger or to be hateful, that word is still irrevocably associated with that race. You can use that word with the best of intentions to only hurt people who you hate, but it's going to be heard and associated with an entire race of people whether you want it to or not. And it's going to hurt people you didn't intend to hurt, whether you want it to or not.

That word dehumanizes people for their skin color, and yes, often for someone's actions as well. But the word is specific to skin color, and that's the issue.

Another aspect of this is for the people who dislike identity politics, the last thing you should be doing is trying to use someone's race as way of hurting them. It may be effective, but it's the complete antithesis of what you claim to stand for. Not that I remember you specifically disliking identity politics, but for those who do, it is.

Take it from Kendrick,

 

[Cato]

Thats why some black people don't trip when some Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Mexicans, Asians etc. say nigga.

I think there is a problem with consistency right here. These problems always arise when you implement some arbitrary group identity restriction on some action.
What about the people that in between? Arbitrary addendum to make the rule more complex, Ad infinitum?

If SOME (A) black people are don't trip when an asian says the N word, that implies that there are OTHER (B) black people that DO TRIP when an asian uses the N word.

If both A and B trip if a white person uses the N word, but A does not when an asian does it?
Does that mean that the harm to B, that got very tripped up when an asian used the N word is less than the harm to A when a white person said the N word?
Seriously, this does not make sense and is not even internally consistent.

To make things even more convoluted, what if a really black skinned Samoan said the N word, and A was upset because the Samoan was not american and did not understand
but B thought it was ok since the samoan had ebony black skin? Who is right and who is wrong to be upset?

It doesn't work. It is not consistent.
You can not build a society on ever more arbitrary rules and regulations on who can do what and when.


I really think that the only reasonably solution, with any chance of actually working and being internally consistent as a rule set, is if every one just stop using the word.

 

[Vicetrailia]

OP do yourself a favor and ignore the word. You dismiss the difference between the -er and -a, a critical piece, and refuse to listen because you want things your way, versus what actually is.

In the U.S. we are socialized pretty well on the context. It's largely used intra-racially, but with new generations people flex it more, and that's between those generations.

The word doesn't need to be utilized consistently, and it won't, because it's context dependent. A black person just can't call any black person "nigga" either, there are some general rules to the road. It's language, it's not a process.

 

[David Ricardo]

I was threaten with a knife on my throat in school because I was German and had the nerve to go out before these assholes. White people also endure racism. And especially because I experienced this moment I am against discrimination in any form based on your gender or skin color. That is also why I will never share the thought that people are allowed to do something or in this case are not allowed to do something because of their race or gender.

That's not the same. You were a victim of the opposite of racism. Your government is too leenient with inmigrants. But that's another matter and a very complicated one. I think we better leave it for another topic?

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

You can not build a society on ever more arbitrary rules and regulations on who can do what and when.


I really think that the only reasonably solution, with any chance of actually working and being internally consistent as a rule set, is if every one just stop using the word.

Ahhh, but you see, "equality" is only an issue when it affects the majority. We only want solutions when the majority feels mistreated. Is it a petty double standard? Yup! While the majority only cares about what affects them they can endure the hardship of not saying one word while the minority works out its kinks... or they can cry about it and keep trying to "Make America Great Again" (aka going back to when women and minorities knew their place.)

 

[KevinKeene]

Why do you need to write the word 14 times (13 in the op + 1 on the title)?

You seem to understand it's hurtful given that you wrote: "You use it when you want to hurt, you don't use it otherwise."

I am all for freedom of speech and against political correctness. I came here for it. As Jordan Peterson says, 'sometimes you need to risk being offensive in order to think'. But, in this case, I don't see the need to use the word at all. You could have used "n-word" or "nixxxr" and get your point across without offending anybody.

If we want to have a conversation about this word, we need people from both sides to participate. We should try to be respectful and calm. How are you going to have a conversation about a "hot" topic if you start it by horriby offending people on one of the sides of the debate?

Freedom of speech is a very powerful tool, but with great power comes great responsibility. I don't think you are up to the task.

I'm not offending anyone. I'm talking ABOUT the word 'nigger', thus naming it clearly. This is akin to any scientific or level-headed discourse, where facts are a given and not censored. The same way I can write 'cunt' as long as I'm talking about the word 'cunt'. The moment I direct it at someone, it becomes offensive. So I hope to have cleared that up as I have bo intention of offending anyone. ALTHOUGH the topic in itself is probably offensive to some, so the repeated use of 'nigger' is a measure of de-powering the word for the purpose of the forward going discussion - which cannot be had when people are tiptoing around it.

When black people use it, it means we are together in this, we both are part of a group. It's a bonding word for them. Although I also think it subconsciously reinforces the idea that there is an 'us' and a 'them'.

As you see yourself: that line of thinking creates an 'us vs them' attitude. It causes seperation in times where people need to come together. That will never happen for as long as certain races get to do exclusive stuff.

I disagree with the 'gay people also call themselves fags, fat people call themselves fatso' argument. That's an extremely private matter. Neither would you call a stranger any of that, nor would you go shouting it in public. What people do in their very private circle is their decision. But when you're in publuc (like singing a song), you shouldn't use it anymore than anybody of any skin color. Because then ... see my OP.

In general I like to think: Is the world better and more peaceful with or without the word 'nigger'? I reply to this with a firm 'yes'.

 

[Dunki]

That's not the same. You were a victim of the opposite of racism.

what does this even mean? The opposite or racism is equality, fairness etc. And reverse racism is bullshit it is still racism. I was discriminated based on my Race. I was seen as useless and inferior based on my skin color. That is what you call racism.

But I agree for the other part. This should also not be a topic about Immigration etc but how people think it is ok when people are allowed to do something others are not based on a fact (race) they had no influence at all.

 

[KevinKeene]

Ahhh, but you see, "equality" is only an issue when it affects the majority. We only want solutions when the majority feels mistreated. Is it a petty double standard? Yup! While the majority only cares about what affects them they can endure the hardship of not saying one word while the minority works out its kinks... or they can cry about it and keep trying to "Make America Great Again" (aka going back to when women and minorities knew their place.)

That's universally true for any topic. As someone who suffers from depression and doesn't care about money, society doesn't care about me. Society only wants me to work and that's it.

So i dot feel like this belongs in this topic. I'd be interested in that discussion, though, if you made a new topic.

 

[Kiriseki]

There should be no such thing as a word that's okay for only a certain group of people to say. Not only does it create a divide between that group and all others, but if the word in question, ie. "nigger", was originally started as a disparaging word, then that group is doing nothing but giving it power as such.

If anything, the word should be used by everyone everywhere, under any kind of context, until it's run into the ground and loses both meaning, and the power it holds.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

So i dot feel like this belongs in this topic.

It absolutely belongs in the topic. Folks didn't have a problem with the word until "society" deemed it was inappropriate for them to say it. Now its an issue because one or more groups use a derivative among themselves and you feel like you should be let in on the fun. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, I've never given anymore than a side eye to a white person who's said nigga in my presence and I don't plan to do more than that. But I am not all black people so I can tell you that the word sounds hostile regardless of intention when used by white people. I'm older than most so there's a long history attached to me, that word and white people. Younger generations are apparently more lax about it because they don't know a time when white people were outwardly racially hostile so it's easier for them to let shit slide.

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Just a word to say we're popping in on this topic regularly which is quite high profile at the moment, just because of popular culture and current affairs.


Just a reminder that although all you see is a post and an avatar, there are people from all walks of life and probably people of colour within this topic. It is up to them whether they wish to publicly identify as so, but err on the side of politeness as both sides can learn from each other and perhaps find a middle ground.


Some points to maybe bring into the debate amongst each other - note these are not meant to illicit a stance on anything merely to ensure the topic keeps on track and provides some avenues for debate:

If a word is to be appropriated and policed because it is part of a subculture or identifies/resonates only within a particular subset of society, is it right to appropriate that into something you package up and sell, especially when you tell said people they cannot identify with the music or even have permission to sing along?
Should a slur that was appropriated by an affected community be bastardised and still have an air of prohibition that retains a divisive nature;
How does this compare against other such 'reclaimed' examples, does this set precedent e.g yids, paki;

 

[Cato]

Ahhh, but you see, "equality" is only an issue when it affects the majority. We only want solutions when the majority feels mistreated. Is it a petty double standard? Yup! While the majority only cares about what affects them they can endure the hardship of not saying one word while the minority works out its kinks... or they can cry about it and keep trying to "Make America Great Again" (aka going back to when women and minorities knew their place.)

I am not american and I am a minority in the place that I live. But that is not really any of your business.
I really fail to see your point here about majority, minorities and make america great again.
What does "make america great again" even mean in this context? Why even bring in some silly partisan politics?

Am I a Trump voter and I should be shamed? I can assure you, I can not vote in the US and even if I could I would not vote for Trump.


Your post really feels like a character attack. You are an intelligent person and I do not think you intended to come across the way you did.

 

[Silver Wattle]

Black Americans project confusion on this issue, I'll stick with using it exclusively when singing rap lyrics that use the word.

 

[KevinKeene]

It absolutely belongs in the topic. Folks didn't have a problem with the word until "society" deemed it was inappropriate for them to say it. Now its an issue because one or more groups use a derivative among themselves and you feel like you should be let in on the fun. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, I've never given anymore than a side eye to a white person who's said nigga in my presence and I don't plan to do more than that. But I am not all black people so I can tell you that the word sounds hostile regardless of intention when used by white people. I'm older than most so there's a long history attached to me, that word and white people. Younger generations are apparently more lax about it because they don't know a time when white people were outwardly racially hostile so it's easier for them to let shit slide.

Thing is, there are two instances where I hear the word: 1) people using it to discriminate and 2) black people casually amongst themselves or in songs.

As someone from Germany, the latter by far outweighs the former - we have other curse words here (lol).

So I ask you: how do effectively tell non-black people they mustn't use a word, when black people sing and sell the word all the time? There's a cognitive dissonance here and being outraged ad aeternum wot fix it.

I don't use the word 'nigger' in my daily life. Maybe when close friends, my brothers and I are having a silly all-out 'offend each other' contest in private. Never in public.

I feel like if black people stopped using it all the time, the word would go away very, very soon from daily discourse. Only fringe racists would keep at it and further alienate themselves.

Of course, that'd entail that black people can no longer stick it to non-black people a la 'nu-uh, you mustn't say it haha!'. That's really black people's choice.

 

[Yoshi]

I don't use the word 'nigger' in my daily life. Maybe when close friends, my brothers and I are having a silly all-out 'offend each other' contest in private. Never in public.

How can you offend your brother by calling him a nigg(er/a) when you are both white? I do not understand.

Here's the thing: We're already using 'nigger'. How so? Let's see: everyone agrees that 'nigger' is a hateful term for black people, right? So if I were to describe a black person's appearance, I wouldn't say 'he's a nigger', because that be hateful. But I'm not hating anyone. So I'll say 'he's black' or some variant of that. Now, IF I'm in a situation in which I intended to verbally hurt a black person, then I would use the word 'nigger'. Hateful? Yes, but that's the point then, isn't it?

Speak for yourself, I am not using nigg(er/a) to insult anyone, no matter what the person did. It is a disgusting thing to say, because you do not chastise a person for who they are, but for some semi-biological attribute. Even if a black person did all they could to hurt me, I would never resort to this specific way of hating on him. I'd hate him, not people who have his skin colour, so it makes no sense to use that word. It is also different from calling someone e.g. fat, because at least fat is something negative about the person, "nigger" or even just "black" is a value-free attribute, so it makes no sense to yell that at the person.

However, I do not understand the wish of (some) black people to use nigg(er/a) at all. I think no one should use it. Except, of course, when citing someone who used it (which includes singing a song that contains it) or when discussing the word. I can see no good argument, why it would be racist to say "nigger" in a discussion about whether to use the term / under which circumstances to use it.

 

[Grinchy]

No matter who is saying it, the word makes me cringe. I'm with those saying they feel like either no one should say it or else you open the doors for everyone to say it. As others have pointed out, Jews don't go around calling each other kikes all day, and no matter who is saying it, it's offensive. But, if Jews made that word a part of popular culture and then threw a tantrum like school children any time a non-Jew said it, isn't it clear how silly that would be? Wouldn't you think they were kinda pathetic if they walked around feeling special about their make-believe pass to utter "their" word all day long?

 

[Panda1]

I'm African from Africa and no black person wants to use nigger or hear it. We look on American blacks as a fucking disgrace.

 

[Apdiddy]

WTF is this shit?

Your whole argument pretty much defeats itself and seems to read as the only reason you want to use the word is because of your perception of Kenderick Lamar getting mad about a fan using it. Black people took the word back and the context of it changed for them. If I, as a white person, say it to a black person it will remind that person of what he/she knew from even recent history as it was told. I think once we are further anyway from slavery/Jim Crow laws/civil rights movement, the word may cease to be in use or may be forgotten.

Is this what passes for discussion nowadays?

 

[Catphish]

At the end of the day, it's only a word. It has no more power than what people allow it to have.

 

[Dunki]

WTF is this shit?

Your whole argument pretty much defeats itself and seems to read as the only reason you want to use the word is because of your perception of Kenderick Lamar getting mad about a fan using it. Black people took the word back and the context of it changed for them. If I, as a white person, say it to a black person it will remind that person of what he/she knew from even recent history as it was told. I think once we are further anyway from slavery/Jim Crow laws/civil rights movement, the word may cease to be in use or may be forgotten.

Is this what passes for discussion nowadays?

No it will not because people also use it to show their superiority to show that they can say it and others can not. Also I think it is laughable that people argue that it needs more time.. How many hundred of years will it still take so white people are allowed to say something they have not established or any say in back then. I am sorry but this is such a bad argument when we are talking here about discrimination and racism.

PS: Today's generation does not recognize this word based on history but based on media and the culture they grew up.

 

[Cato]

WTF is this shit?

Troll quality 3/10
Low effort. Poor research. Even contradicts the thread discussion in the first sentence.
(Unless this is a SomethingAweful style troll, where outrageous misstatements are deliberate and
used to trigger a response. See: ... Gandalf, king of the dark Elves ... in SomethingAwful LOTR movie reviews.)

 

[VAL0R]

It seems to me that it is no more or less evil when a black man with hate in his heart shouts at a white man, "You white trash fu**!," than it is when a white man with hate in his heart shouts, "You filthy nig***!" Both abusive insults are dehumanizing. Both men are using the most vicious language they can summon to cause maximum emotional/mental harm to the other. Both are hateful acts that, I believe, God will judge similarly.

 

[Noboru Wataya]

I have a 12 year old white nephew who has been busting out these lyrics with all his little white friends while doing stupid emote dances from Fortnite. We have taught him that word is wrong to say in public and what it means... now in his young head he has a word to call a black person if he gets angry at them. Oh well I can’t do much more, thanks Chris brown for teaching the word nigga to all your teeny bopper fans by blowing up the charts.

for real though, it’s a word and it is going nowhere, people just need to suck it up and accept there are bad words made to offend every race/creed/attribute and always will be. The current outrage culture trend in social media is embarrassing.

 

[Silver Wattle]

I have a 12 year old white nephew who has been busting out these lyrics with all his little white friends while doing stupid emote dances from Fortnite. We have taught him that word is wrong to say in public and what it means... now in his young head he has a word to call a black person if he gets angry at them. Oh well I can’t do much more, thanks Chris brown for teaching the word nigga to all your teeny bopper fans by blowing up the charts.

for real though, it’s a word and it is going nowhere, people just need to suck it up and accept there are bad words made to offend every race/creed/attribute and always will be. The current outrage culture trend in social media is embarrassing.

This was roughly how I came to learn of the word in my country, American rap music.
Tupac, mainly.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

You have the choice to use it in any form. You can say it or not say it.

I choose to not use it. I've heard enough times in my life that it's offensive. My mother was the first person I remember saying it wasn't something to say. So I don't say it.

Where I grew up, the word Fag/Faggot wasn't used in reference to gay people. Fag/Faggot and even bitch were exclusive to men. Crying over your Ex... Fag. Scared to fight... Fag. Scared to make a U-Turn because the sign says you can't... Fag.

When I got out of my immediate area and learned Fag was offensive to gays, I had a choice. I choose not to say it.

At least in America, you have the choice to use it. I simply choose not to.

 

[BANGS]

We don't want to say it, we just hate being told we can't say something in a nation with free speech. If you told me I couldn't say beachball, I'd have the same reaction...

 

[Dunki]

You have the choice to use it in any form. You can say it or not say it.

I choose to not use it. I've heard enough times in my life that it's offensive. My mother was the first person I remember saying it wasn't something to say. So I don't say it.

Where I grew up, the word Fag/Faggot wasn't used in reference to gay people. Fag/Faggot and even bitch were exclusive to men. Crying over your Ex... Fag. Scared to fight... Fag. Scared to make a U-Turn because the sign says you can't... Fag.

When I got out of my immediate area and learned Fag was offensive to gays, I had a choice. I choose not to say it.

At least in America, you have the choice to use it. I simply choose not to.

This is all fair and great.

I think people here are talking about telling others to not use something they use on a regular basis because of "reasons"

In the end it should be YOUR decision not someone else.

 

[WinterIsComing]

English isn't my primary language, so the only times i use the word nigger are when singing songs in which the word is present.
I don't use the equivalent word for my mother tongue either, but neither do black people. When you hear someone use it around here, it's definitely because that human being is scum, no matter what race says it. Too bad it isn't the same in the US, could save you guys a lot of trouble, being the most recent the KL concert situation.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

From my european perspective the weight und usage of the word seems a bit of a self fullfilling prophecy. I'm almost 40. As a kid i knew the word existed and that it was a bad word. Sometimes you heard about it in context of slave trade or american history on TV or read it in an old book. It was an old word that wasn't really used by anyone anymore. Not even as a racial slur. There were other bad words. Then came the 90's and gangster rap suddenly was super popular, followed by the internet and more awareness of every day issues in America. Suddenly the word was everywhere, back into peoples minds. And through the continued use in art and media it's like this never ending cycle of a forbidden fruit dangling in front of peoples faces.

I think if the word used by whites evokes negative emotions and you don't want people to use it then the logical step should be to stop using and reminding people of it, particularely if you're an artist with a huge audience. The appeal of the forbidden will always be at least as strong as moral lectures. It's like the Streisand effect maybe? So i think thers only two solutions. Either the word needs to be burried or people have to allow it to lose its weight, which is easier said then done of course because of all the conflict and tension that exists in society.

 

[NickFire]

It’s really sad that no matter how much time and money is spent on trying to teach kids not to be racist little bastards, a segment of the country will simultaneously tell them that there are different rules for different races when speech is involved. It’s like telling them all races are equal, wink wink.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

How does this compare against other such 'reclaimed' examples, does this set precedent e.g yids, paki;

1.
If we are comparing, then "yid"/"paki" would not be the words used. It would be some alteration of those words.

2.
There is no way I would want to be using those words unless my friends use it all the time and we agree that we can call each other these things because it's something private between us.

And even if my best friend called me a "jid" or a "pakko", I would think twice about standing in a room filled with thousands of Jews or Pakistanis who aren't my best friend and casually using the words.

3.
The minority of black people who use the word in its "new" form know exactly how controversial the use of the word is.

I don't think they truly think that saying "nigga" is just some thing that society casually accepts. That's probably why it even ever started in the first place. It was never meant to be acceptable. It isn't supposed to be. It isn't used with that expectation.

Most of the elders in their own families very likely don't accept the use of the word, let alone actual society as a whole.

As others have pointed out, Jews don't go around calling each other kikes all day, and no matter who is saying it, it's offensive. But, if Jews made that word a part of popular culture then threw a tantrum like school children any time a non-Jew said it, isn't it clear how silly that would be? Wouldn't you think they were kinda pathetic if they walked around feeling special about their make-believe pass to utter "their" word all day long?

Which Jews?

This analogy only works if you incorrectly assume that every black person is happy with the use of the word, or like to use the word, or would even use it in the presence of their own family.

Just like your analogy assumes that if Jews who were part of a popular sub culture started calling each other "kites", that it means it's what Jews like to do and find acceptable. And that any outrage from Jews about other people starting to use the word "kite" would be pathetic because "the jews" do it.

A big problem with how this topic was framed and initially discussed, is that for whatever reason, its about "the blacks" like they're all the same person.

"The Jews", don't become pathetic for not accepting non Jews using the word "kite" just because some Jews in a popular sub culture start using it.

"The black people" also don't become pathetic for not accepting non black people using the word.

Too much identity politics these days instead of focusing on the relevant individuals.

I think people here are talking about telling others to not use something they use on a regular basis because of "reasons"

Who is "they"?

Kendrick? What percentage of black people is Kendrick, again?

Once again, unless we can establish which leader of black people in the world decried that all black people are 100% fine with the use of the n-word in its casual or original form, then OP and others who agree aren't actually making the point they think they are.

Especially coming from a "stop saying white people are xyz! We arent!", while peppering his opening post with "black people this" and "black people that" in the same monolithic address that fuelled his desire to even create this thread.


I've seen SOME posts where people manage to correctly identify that they are addressing SOME people, but there seems to be a lot of talking to and about "black people" in this thread. From the very first post.

 

[KevinKeene]

I've seen SOME posts where people manage to correctly identify that they are addressing SOME people, but there seems to be a lot of talking to and about "black people" in this thread. From the very first post.

Excuse me, but that's then a consequence of society and media doing their best to makr it look like it's everyone of a given group.

I'll agree any day that identity politics that value the group over the individuam are terrible. But in terms of the 'nigger' word, I've never seen a significant pushback from black people's side, neither, the other forun, nor in popular media (tv,youtube, etc).

If your claim is that not all black people are happy about the use of this word, I believe you. Statistics alone dictate that not 100% of people within a group agree with each other. Now if only there was more visible/audible pushback against the use of this word.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Excuse me, but that's then a consequence of society and media doing their best to makr it look like it's everyone of a given group.

I'll agree any day that identity politics that value the group over the individuam are terrible. But in terms of the 'nigger' word, I've never seen a significant pushback from black people's side, neither, the other forun, nor in popular media (tv,youtube, etc).

If your claim is that not all black people are happy about the use of this word, I believe you. Statistics alone dictate that not 100% of people within a group agree with each other. Now if only there was more visible/audible pushback against the use of this word.

Sounds like a lot of excuses for hypocritical behaviour in a thread of your own making about resenting being treated as a monolith and singled out by race, while treating other races as monoliths and grouping their thoughts, interests and responsibilities by the colour of their skin.

And then making excuses for it by blaming society and media.

 

[KevinKeene]

Sounds like a lot of excuses for hypocritical behaviour in a thread of your own making about resenting being treated as a monolith and singled out by race, while treating other races as monoliths and grouping their thoughts, interests and responsibilities by the colour of their skin.

And then making excuses for it by blaming society and media.

It's not an excuse. Sorry that you can only see it that way.