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[Barsinister]

I've read through the whole thread, wondering if I could add anything useful to the discussion. I will attempt to add now.

I read a long time ago that sometimes twins will develop their own unique language. There was also a movie about it with the movie star Jodie Foster called "Nell", I believe. I wonder if some people are bothered that they are excluded from using that unique language also. I think that was what the movie was about actually...

Sometimes some people are excluded from the club. It happens. I'm not allowed into the executive suite in any airport. It's excluded from me. I accept that. It doesn't mean that they are better people, they just want a privilege that is exclusive to them. So be it. I'll start my own club, with hookers and blackjack............

Are people really upset that they aren't allowed to use a word that they don't want to use anyway? Maybe it is a language barrier problem. Or a different culture problem. I see more than a few non Americans in this thread. I will help you with thinking about this in a different manner. It is a club exclusive to a certain set of people. You are not allowed in. That is OK. One day, hopefully soon, the club will be disbanded because it is a silly club to be in.

Freedom includes the freedom to associate with whom you will.

 

[KevinKeene]

I've read through the whole thread, wondering if I could add anything useful to the discussion. I will attempt to add now.

I read a long time ago that sometimes twins will develop their own unique language. There was also a movie about it with the movie star Jodie Foster called "Nell", I believe. I wonder if some people are bothered that they are excluded from using that unique language also. I think that was what the movie was about actually...

Sometimes some people are excluded from the club. It happens. I'm not allowed into the executive suite in any airport. It's excluded from me. I accept that. It doesn't mean that they are better people, they just want a privilege that is exclusive to them. So be it. I'll start my own club, with hookers and blackjack............

Are people really upset that they aren't allowed to use a word that they don't want to use anyway? Maybe it is a language barrier problem. Or a different culture problem. I see more than a few non Americans in this thread. I will help you with thinking about this in a different manner. It is a club exclusive to a certain set of people. You are not allowed in. That is OK. One day, hopefully soon, the club will be disbanded because it is a silly club to be in.

Freedom includes the freedom to associate with whom you will.

We tend to call clubs that limit membership based on skin color discriminating. I also think it's illegal in most civilized countries, similar how you cannot say 'I do no business with gay people'.

Staying with your analogy, us non-blacks don't want in that club. We want their club to disband and join ours. Being one united team

 

[Dr. Claus]

Personally, I don't like the term. I find it to be childish, regardless of who uses it. There are better words to use, so use them. However, I also understand that it is a term used in certain sections of the community and context matters. If you are singing a song that uses that term, you should be able to sing that term - but depending on your location (as in a school yard or public park), you should rightly be admonished for doing so. Same for yelling out songs that use other curse terms (fuck, cunt, bitch, etc). Know where you are and when you can say it. This is more based on public decency.

As for the Kendrick Lamar situation - I will repeat what I said before: If you bring someone on stage to sing the song you wrote, they have every right to sing the song exactly as you wrote it. If you or your audience get pissed, that is entirely on you. Get over yourself.

As for using the term as a hateful manner, then of course you should be admonished for doing so - same with other terms like "White cis bastard", "fuckin' gook", or "cracker". As my grandmother once told me two very important things:

1. "Don't be a bloody cunt."
2. "Stop your crying and grow a thicker skin."

Be a decent person, but don't cry over every little thing as a perceived slight against you, your family, or your "people".

 

[RefigeKru]

No it will not because people also use it to show their superiority to show that they can say it and others can not. Also I think it is laughable that people argue that it needs more time.. How many hundred of years will it still take so white people are allowed to say something they have not established or any say in back then. I am sorry but this is such a bad argument when we are talking here about discrimination and racism.

PS: Today's generation does not recognize this word based on history but based on media and the culture they grew up.

What?

Black people use the word nigga to show our superiority? What is our superiority supposedly outside asking people not to call us a nigger? (wow) Seriously, what advantages do black folk have in your eyes?
How many hundred years until white people stop saying Nigger in anger, in disgust? How many more years will black people strive for equality? Fucking hell, NFL just told black folk we can't even protest police brutality openly. Why does it feel as if you're only ever in opposition of our culture until you want a piece?

Today's generation does not recognize this word based on history but based on media and the culture they grew up.

^Uh huh. This is some dumb shit, black people haven't even acquired peak woke yet but amazingly the subtext here is that black people are ignorant of their own history and getting more ignorant. Yet you wonder why we don't want people like you uttering the word nigger lol

 

[hammysaurusrex]

General thoughts not intended as a particular response to any single poster:

I've never been in a situation where I needed to use the word and felt upset there would be a social consequence for using it. I simply choose not to use it as there's almost always a better word available that is more appropriate for particular criticism I'm trying to make. Even in a situation where I am intentionally going to provide someone with a scathing criticism, I've never been convinced that calling them a 'nigger' is somehow going to add something.

The "-er" vs. "-a" distinction makes perfect sense to me? Though academics will squabble about their origins, they are different words with different meanings. That being said, if you can't pick up on it because you can't understand a North American dialect that's perfectly reasonable - non-rhoticity is certainly a thing.

I don't want to say 'nigger' is equivalent to 'white trash', but just as a rough example - my family grew up in rural Louisiana; despite all of us being well educated homeowners with middle class careers, we joke among ourselves all the time about being white trash. However, I never use the word with someone I'm not familiar with and I'd absolutely never use it in a professional setting. At the same time, if I heard a patient say it or if someone else let it slip my first thought would not be to word police them. Simply ignoring the remark is usually enough to send a message.

I also think people are overplaying just how okay the word is "as long as you're black": If a black manager in an office called some of the black employees niggers, I'm highly skeptical that would be okay. People seem to be laser-focused on the inclusion of the word in music. But to me art having its own set of language rules is to be expected. It's why it's almost impossible for a comedian to offend me.

Language is quite a resilient thing. I imagine Pinker would be amused at the notion of someone screaming from a mountain top that "either everyone can say it or no one can say it!" as if something as monumental as language is suppose to to give a fuck. I imagine the attempt will fail, just as the idea we're going to simply casually adopt a new set of pronouns into our vocabulary because some academic said so is bound to fail.

I have no particularly strong opinion on the Kendrick Lamar situation - I think there's a case for poor judgement for everyone involved.

 

[TannerDemoz]

Jesus christ I can't wait for you to get fully banned. Some of your threads are fucking insane.

 

[TrainedRage]

My feeling is that like other negative words... Either everyone can say it or no one can say it.

Having these divisions and groups that can and can't say words is just stupid in my opinion.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Now, IF I'm in a situation in which I intended to verbally hurt a black person, then I would use the word 'nigger'. Hateful? Yes, but that's the point then, isn't it?

Sorry dude but thats racist. Have never and will never feel the need to call anyone a racial slur because I was pissed off at them.

 

[Kadayi]

This whole ownership of language thing is a complete joke. I have zero time for those who espouse it or make it their fixation above all other things. It is so much meaningless noise in the grand scheme of things. As a species it get's us nowhere moving forward because all it promotes is petty tribal division versus social unity in an age of globalism. There are far most pressing and salient issues that we collectively face as species a result of our present unsustainable trajectory in terms of consumption and behaviour versus getting bent out of shape over what amounts to little more than cultural playground gotcha when all is said and done.

 

[Panda1]

This whole ownership of language thing is a complete joke. I have zero time for those who espouse it or make it their fixation above all other things. It is so much meaningless noise in the grand scheme of things. As a species it get's us nowhere moving forward because all it promotes is petty tribal division versus social unity in an age of globalism. There are far most pressing and salient issues that we collectively face as species a result of our present unsustainable trajectory in terms of consumption and behaviour versus getting bent out of shape over what amounts to little more than cultural playground gotcha when all is said and done.

You sound like a privileged oppressor not knowing the pressing and salient issue is to be able to use identity politics to help fight the oppression minorities are facing

 

[loki 16]

If you are not black don’t say that word. It’s not a difficult thing to understand.

 

[Kadayi]

If you are not black don’t say that word. It’s not a difficult thing to understand.

How about just not say the word regardless of the colour of your skin. Thus avoiding any chance of confusion at all.

 

[Moneal]

If you are not black don’t say that word. It’s not a difficult thing to understand.

how black do you have to be to be able to say it?

 

[loki 16]

how black do you have to be to be able to say it?

if your ancestors were slaves

 

[Moneal]

if your ancestors were slaves

So an african from africa can't say it?

 

[Panda1]

Can Rachel Dolezal rap the world nigga ?

 

[Panda1]

So an african from africa can't say it?

Africans from Africa dont want to say it so it a non issue in Africa trust me! and there were slaves since the whole of human history the word slave derives from Slavic where the Romans took a lot of slaves from.

 

[Moneal]

Africans from Africa dont want to say it so it a non issue in Africa trust me! and there were slaves since the whole of human history the word slave derives from Slavic where the Romans took a lot of slaves from.

Didn't say anything about in Africa. There are people from Africa that live in the US. Some of which I would guess like hip-hop and if invited on stage to sing them would not be booed for saying nigga.

As to the bolded, it was being used in the context of being black.

 

[loki 16]

So an african from africa can't say it?

It’s an American word. Anybody who’s had that insult thrown at them because of the color of their skin can use it.

 

[Moneal]

It’s an American word. Anybody who’s had that insult thrown at them because of the color of their skin can use it.

so you are changing it? first its anyone black, then anyone that had ancestors that were slaves, now people that have had it used against them based on skin color. What about black people that have never been called it, who had ancestors that were slaves? It does seem like a difficult thing to understand now doesn't it?

 

[Shamylov]

I have a few thoughts about this issue that I don't know how to condense into a single, cohesive post so I'll just share it in parts. Keep in mind that I'm not African-American so I don't mean to speak for them:

1. Black people are not being racist or creating an "us vs them" mentality when they ask white people not to use the word. White people are the ones who created the racist, "us vs them" system that black people have had to live in. That they took the word back as a form of empowerment only makes sense in the existing racist society that black people live in. Otherwise there'd be no power to take back.

2. Black people are not perpetuating the negative power of the word by using it among themselves or in their art. The negative power of the word comes from the history of the country and how it created the current racist society that we live in. So it makes sense that they wouldn't want white people to use it because white people are the ones who created and control racism in society. In a society with no racism, the word would have no meaning and thus no power.

3. Kendrick is very much allowed to make songs using the word, have white people on stage to sing them, and ask them to skip over that word. His perspective as an artist includes that he is a black male in America; he doesn't relinquish this by asking people to experience his art with him. He can still be offended by white people using the word. It's completely absurd to expect him to create art from his experiences but then ask him to ignore who he is when he asks white people to share in his art just because they want to use the n-word.

4. Asking black artists to let white people use the word or asking black people in general to never use the word is awfully convenient for white people. The word was created from oppression against black people, but now that they took it back we should get rid of it? So the only context in which the word is allowed is the one in which white people got to use it against black people? I disagree with that; black people are allowed to create their own context and meaning of the word separate from white people, who already established what their meaning of the word is.

EDIT: cleaned up the post a bit

 

[rokkerkory]

Nobody wants to say it? You’ve got commitment from everyone or something?

 

[Shamylov]

I forgot to add one thing: if you don't understand why black people don't want white people to use the word so you'll go ahead and use it or approve of other white people using it, then you're willfully ignoring the very valid reasons why black people are offended by that word. That would make you huge douchebag and I've no problem if you're treated as such.

If you don't understand, then just err on the side of caution given the sensitive context of the issue.

 

[Moneal]

4. Asking black artists to let white people use the word or asking black people in general to never use the word is awfully convenient for white people. The word was created from oppression against black people, but now that they took it back we should get rid of it? So the only context in which the word is allowed is the one in which white people got to use it against black people? I disagree with that; black people are allowed to create their own context and meaning of the word separate from white people, who already established what their meaning of the word is.

Who says that the negative usage of the word is allowed by white people?

 

[Shamylov]

Who says that the negative usage of the word is allowed by white people?

I mean that in the past sense. If you believe the word shouldn't be used at all now, then the only context in which was allowed was back during the times when it originated.

EDIT: to finish the thought: that's awfully convenient considering that nowadays black people took back the word from white people.

 

[KevinKeene]

I have a few thoughts about this issue that I don't know how to condense into a single, cohesive post so I'll just share it in parts. Keep in mind that I'm not African-American so I don't mean to speak for them:

1. Black people are not being racist or creating an "us vs them" mentality when they ask white people not to use the word. White people are the ones who created the racist, "us vs them" system that black people have had to live in. That they took the word back as a form of empowerment only makes sense in the existing racist society that black people live in. Otherwise there'd be no power to take back.

2. Black people are not perpetuating the negative power of the word by using it among themselves or in their art. The negative power of the word comes from the history of the country and how it created the current racist society that we live in. So it makes sense that they wouldn't want white people to use it because white people are the ones who created and control racism in society. In a society with no racism, the word would have no meaning and thus no power.

3. Kendrick is very much allowed to make songs using the word, have white people on stage to sing them, and ask them to skip over that word. His perspective as an artist includes that he is a black male in America; he doesn't relinquish this by asking people to experience his art with him. He can still be offended by white people using the word. It's completely absurd to expect him to create art from his experiences but then ask him to ignore who he is when he asks white people to share in his art just because they want to use the n-word.

4. Asking black artists to let white people use the word or asking black people in general to never use the word is awfully convenient for white people. The word was created from oppression against black people, but now that they took it back we should get rid of it? So the only context in which the word is allowed is the one in which white people got to use it against black people? I disagree with that; black people are allowed to create their own context and meaning of the word separate from white people, who already established what their meaning of the word is.

EDIT: cleaned up the post a bit

You wrote a lot, but it's all fixed statements. I read everything and kept asking 'why?' or 'because ...?'. It's hard to discuss statements without an argument attached to them. Maybe you could elaborate on the argumentative side. Otherwise I can only say that I disagree, for the points made in the OP.

 

[Moneal]

I mean that in the past sense. If you believe the word shouldn't be used at all now, then the only context in which was allowed was back during the times when it originated.

EDIT: to finish the thought: that's awfully convenient considering that nowadays black people took back the word from white people.

But we aren't in the past. We don't get to decide what was acceptable in the past. We universally agree that slavery was bad and no one gets to use it acceptably now right? So if we agree the word was bad then why is not acceptable to feel the same about the word now?

Is it ok to segregate language based on skin color? I don't agree with segregation on anything.

 

[Shamylov]

But we aren't in the past. We don't get to decide what was acceptable in the past. We universally agree that slavery was bad and no one gets to use it acceptably now right? So if we agree the word was bad then why is not acceptable to feel the same about the word now?

Is it ok to segregate language based on skin color? I don't agree with segregation on anything.

The word ISN'T bad when black people use it among themselves. They took that word back, white people don't get to decide it's wholly bad now.

 

[Moneal]

The word ISN'T bad when black people use it among themselves. They took that word back, white people don't get to decide it's wholly bad now.

Many black people would disagree with you there.

 

[zumphry]

Many black people would disagree with you there.

Black people aren't a monolith. Surprise! But that's for them to decide, not us.

 

[Shamylov]

Many black people would disagree with you there.

Then that's up to them, not white people

 

[Kadayi]

I have a few thoughts about this issue that I don't know how to condense into a single, cohesive post so I'll just share it in parts. Keep in mind that I'm not African-American so I don't mean to speak for them:

1. Black people are not being racist or creating an "us vs them" mentality when they ask white people not to use the word. White people are the ones who created the racist, "us vs them" system that black people have had to live in. That they took the word back as a form of empowerment only makes sense in the existing racist society that black people live in. Otherwise there'd be no power to take back.

2. Black people are not perpetuating the negative power of the word by using it among themselves or in their art. The negative power of the word comes from the history of the country and how it created the current racist society that we live in. So it makes sense that they wouldn't want white people to use it because white people are the ones who created and control racism in society. In a society with no racism, the word would have no meaning and thus no power.

3. Kendrick is very much allowed to make songs using the word, have white people on stage to sing them, and ask them to skip over that word. His perspective as an artist includes that he is a black male in America; he doesn't relinquish this by asking people to experience his art with him. He can still be offended by white people using the word. It's completely absurd to expect him to create art from his experiences but then ask him to ignore who he is when he asks white people to share in his art just because they want to use the n-word.

4. Asking black artists to let white people use the word or asking black people in general to never use the word is awfully convenient for white people. The word was created from oppression against black people, but now that they took it back we should get rid of it? So the only context in which the word is allowed is the one in which white people got to use it against black people? I disagree with that; black people are allowed to create their own context and meaning of the word separate from white people, who already established what their meaning of the word is.

None of what've you've said remotely holds up to any degree of scrutiny. You talk about it not being 'Us Vs Them' but then you go into 'Us Vs Them' and setting down arbitrary ground rules about what you believe people can say with zero sense of self-awareness as to the utter absurdity of the entire subject. Something is either offensive or it isn't. Period. This idea that there's some middle ground where something is allowed because of *reasons* is grade A BS. A healthy functional society is not achieved through the notion of exception, regardless of which direction it's coming from. Enough with this "ownership" garbage already.

 

[Moneal]

Black people aren't a monolith. Surprise! But that's for them to decide, not us.

Then that's up to them, not white people

How do you know its just white people saying it is not ok for anyone to say it in this thread?

 

[Shamylov]

None of what've you've said remotely holds up to any degree of scrutiny. You talk about it not being 'Us Vs Them' but then you go into 'Us Vs Them' and setting down arbitrary ground rules about what you believe people can say with zero sense of self-awareness as to the utter absurdity of the entire subject. Something is either offensive or it isn't. Period. This idea that there's some middle ground where something is allowed because of *reasons* is grade A BS. A healthy functional society is not achieved through the notion of exception, regardless of which direction it's coming from. Enough with this "ownership" garbage already.

You are completely ignoring the context in which "ownership" of the word is being claimed. White people are the ones who designed black people as a separate group and gave them an offensive word to go along with it. Black people took that word back and are allowed to deny it's use to white people. If you want the word to lose its power then end the racist system in which it makes sense. That's really it.

 

[Zog]

If you aren't taking ownership of the word to defang it then you have no ground to claim ownership of it. Right now, the word is being used to maintain an Us vs Them mentality. It seems like some people want to bring back segregation?

 

[Shamylov]

If you aren't taking ownership of the word to defang it then you have no ground to claim ownership of it. Right now, the word is being used to maintain an Us vs Them mentality. It seems like some people want to bring back segregation?

Bring back segregation? That's so ludicrous I don't even know where to begin.

Black people can claim the word back to do with whoever they wish. Why do you get to dictate that they should defang it?

 

[Moneal]

You are completely ignoring the context in which "ownership" of the word is being claimed. White people are the ones who designed black people as a separate group and gave them an offensive word to go along with it. Black people took that word back and are allowed to deny it's use to white people. If you want the word to lose its power then end the racist system in which it makes sense. That's really it.

So slavery, segregation, jim crow, or pre Civil rights act system still exists?

 

[Shamylov]

So slavery, segregation, jim crow, or pre Civil rights act system still exists?

Those are all previous manifestations of white supremacy. We both know there are new ones such as excessive scrutiny from police, being trapped in poverty, insufficient representation in government, etc.

EDIT: segregation is still alive, actually.

 

[Zog]

Bring back segregation? That's so ludicrous I don't even know where to begin.

Black people can claim the word back to do with whoever they wish. Why do you get to dictate that they should defang it?

Why do you get to dictate who can use it?

 

[zumphry]

So slavery, segregation, jim crow, or pre Civil rights act system still exists?

You're crazy if you think that once those went away, that black people were automatically equal to white people across the US in all aspects of life.

 

[Shamylov]

Why do you get to dictate who can use it?

I don't. I'm saying black people should and white people have to be ok with it. I mean, black people aren't even using the word against white people; their context refers solely to themselves. What they're doing is not allowing white people to just shed their old context without addressing white supremacy first.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

No one should say it. Period.

 

[Moneal]

Those are all previous manifestations of white supremacy. We both know there are new ones such as excessive scrutiny from police, being trapped in poverty, insufficient representation in government, etc.

No we both don't know that. excessive police scrutiny is likely due to crime rates. Poverty attributed to the decline of the family. As for representation in government, it usually takes money to get into politics, so that is exacerbated by the poverty issue.

You're crazy if you think that once those went away, that black people were automatically equal to white people across the US in all aspects of life.

Did I say automatically, no But those haven't been in effect for the entire lives of most of the country.

 

[Kadayi]

You are completely ignoring the context in which "ownership" of the word is being claimed. White people are the ones who designed black people as a separate group and gave them an offensive word to go along with it. Black people took that word back and are allowed to deny its use to white people.

So let get this right? We're living in a racist system, that's been entirely built by the White Man and somehow taking "ownership" of a epithet which still holds a negative connotation due to a historical association and denying its use by the White Man but still perpetuating it is somehow going to achieve what exactly in the long term?
What's the end goal here? Because I'm not seeing how any of this "them Vs Us" talk is doing anything aside from reinforcing pointless division tbh.

If you want the word to lose its power then end the racist system in which it makes sense. That's really it.

Can you mayhap elaborate on how this is achieved? What's your 5 step plan for ending the racist system?

 

[Zog]

I don't. I'm saying black people should and white people have to be ok with it. I mean, black people aren't even using the word against white people; their context refers solely to themselves. What they're doing is not allowing white people to just shed their old context without addressing white supremacy first.

So you are dictating who can and can't use it.

Black people, white people. Do you believe that this kind of Us vs Them mentality will end or prolong racism?

 

[Shamylov]

No we both don't know that. excessive police scrutiny is likely due to crime rates. Poverty attributed to the decline of the family. As for representation in government, it usually takes money to get into politics, so that is exacerbated by the poverty issue.



Did I say automatically, no But those haven't been in effect for the entire lives of most of the country.

If we can't agree on the basic fact that black people suffer under a system of white supremacy then this discussion is moot.

 

[Shamylov]

So let get this right? We're living in a racist system, that's been entirely built by the White Man and somehow taking "ownership" of a epithet which still holds a negative connotation due to a historical association and denying its use by the White Man but still perpetuating it is somehow going to achieve what exactly in the long term?
What's the end goal here? Because I'm not seeing how any of this is "them Vs Us" talk is doing anything aside from pointless division tbh.

I already explained that the "us vs them" came from white people designating black people as a separate group.

Can you mayhap elaborate on how this is achieved? What's your 5 step plan for ending the racist system?

I don't have to outline a system to end racism, don't be ridiculous. I'm stating the obvious, if there is no racist system then the word has no power.

 

[Shamylov]

So you are dictating who can and can't use it.

Black people, white people. Do you believe that this kind of Us vs Them mentality will end or prolong racism?

Black people didn't create the "us vs them" mentality and they derive no net benefit from it; getting to say the n-word is a paltry prize from years of oppression under white supremacy.

 

[Kadayi]

I already explained that the "us vs them" came from white people designating black people as a separate group.

And yet despite that, you're apparently all for perpetuating it. Weird.

I don't have to outline a system to end racism, don't be ridiculous. I'm stating the obvious, if there is no racist system then the word has no power.

Yet, none of what you've said seems like you're remotely interested in removing the power from the word.

 

[zumphry]

Did I say automatically, no But those haven't been in effect for the entire lives of most of the country.

The integration of black students at Little Rock happened only 60 years ago. Both of my parents remember it. It wasn't that long ago.