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[The Hermit]

Consider what you're seeing. You are watching the protagonist of a videogame, stripped of her armor, made weak, frail, and helpless, while an NPC tells her that she can't go into the final level. An NPC literally walks off with (what ought to be) the final level of the game. I can't imagine what that would feel like as a player, but from a story perspective? It completely de-balls Samus. She is no longer an active participant in her own game!

That TV tropes part is amazing. I´ve never realized that.

Good lord

 

[RagnarokX]

What about in Super Metroid where Ridley had previously died and the base self destructed?

The planet didn't explode so it was possible he survived. I mean, we don't know how much of the manga is canon, but he survived having his ship explode and being blown to bits. But there's no way to do that if the planet he was on was completely obliterated. The explosion in Metroid wasn't that intense considering how old Tourian looks in Super, and Ridley was in Norfair. You return to Zebes after Tourian explodes in Zero Mission and the other areas are undamaged. Also, she encounters him right at the start of the game in Super, and I'm sure the "Oh shit!" feeling the first-time player likely has when encountering the leader of the space pirates at the start of the game is sufficient. She's supposed to lose that fight and be beaten within an inch of her life.

That TV tropes part is amazing. I´ve never realized that.

Good lord

He doesn't stop you from going to the final level. He stops you from going into a level that would be unwinnable since there are no weapons that can fight the metroids in that level and directs you to the real final level because you are the only one capable of defeating the final bosses. He literally says that the reason he takes the suicide mission in Samus' place is because he's not as powerful as Samus.

 

[jholmes]

The problem is nothing the game shows gives Samus a good reason for reacting like that making it an illogical to the narrative and therefore an inhuman response.

Just saying "You're mad because they gave her emotions! doesn't really address the problems with the scene at all.

The fascinating thing about this thread is no matter what I say, people tell me things like this. I didn't say the scene works. I never said the scene works. I doubt I've ever said that any scene in the game works because I think the plot is a disaster in both concept and execution. What I said was I think it makes sense for Samus to be afraid when she first sees Ridley, and to say Samus isn't allowed to feel fear because that destroys the character is an insidious argument, and one that has no real basis in what the developers have presented us in the previous titles in the series.

Do you want to address the problems with the scene? Go for it. I'll probably agree with most of them.

 

[direct_quote]

The planet didn't explode so it was possible he survived. I mean, we don't know how much of the manga is canon, but he survived having his ship explode and being blown to bits. But there's no way to do that if the planet he was on was completely obliterated. The explosion in Metroid wasn't that intense considering how old Tourian looks in Super, and Ridley was in Norfair. You return to Zebes after Tourian explodes in Zero Mission and the other areas are undamaged. Also, she encounters him right at the start of the game in Super, and I'm sure the "Oh shit!" feeling the first-time player likely has when encountering the leader of the space pirates at the start of the game is sufficient. She's supposed to lose that fight and be beaten within an inch of her life.
.

It's obvious that he escaped or was rebuilt or something for the return in Super Metroid, why couldn't the same be said about about that for Ridley in Other M? What was preventing him from escaping the planet before it exploded when he was defeated prior to Samus entering Tourian (or someone grabbing his corpse like they could have done before)? It's a similar situation, she could expect some kind of way for him to be brought back, when Kraid and Ridley were brought back (or survived).. Hell the little creatures she saves found a way to escape the planet..

Also for someone suffering from PTSD, I think both scenarios would have a good chance of triggering a flashback event. In the space station human scientists thrown around and killed (kind of similar to the traumatic event) probably is a gruesome scene, oh it's your boy Ridley that did it.

 

[RagnarokX]

It's obvious that he escaped or was rebuilt or something for the return in Super Metroid, why couldn't the same be said about about that for Ridley in Other M? What was preventing him from escaping the planet before it exploded when he was defeated prior to Samus entering Tourian (or someone grabbing his corpse like they could have done before)? It's a similar situation...

Also for someone suffering from PTSD, I think both scenarios would have a good chance of triggering a flashback event. In the space station human scientists thrown around and killed (kind of similar to the traumatic event) probably is a gruesome scene.

It's not similar. Having the entire planet explode is quite a huge difference. Ridley reconstitutes himself after sustaining massive injuries by eating flesh, which is what he does throughout Other M to grow back to his adult form. It's hard to do that when the planet you were on was blown out of existence. Also, according to Samus in Other M, blowing up Zebes also wiped out the space pirates completely, so who would rebuild him? She certainly wouldn't expect the Galactic Federation to, and they cloned him by accident from DNA on her suit. So it wasn't wrong for her to assume he was obliterated this time, since he was. Ridley's appearance in Other M is much more unbelievable than any other appearance, and it was enough to trigger a relapse.

 

[Terareflection]

Fuck Zero Suit Samus.

All I really want to say here. This was the start of Samus's decline for me.

 

[direct_quote]

It's not similar. Having the entire planet explode is quite a huge difference. In Sakamoto's head Ridley doesn't get rebuilt but reconstituted himself by eating flesh, which is what he does throughout Other M to grow back to his adult form. It's hard to do that when the planet you were on was blown out of existence. Also, according to Samus in Other M, blowing up Zebes also wiped out the space pirates completely, so who would rebuild him? She certainly wouldn't expect the Galactic Federation to, and they cloned him by accident from DNA on her suit. So it wasn't wrong for her to assume he was obliterated this time, since he was. Ridley's appearance in Other M is much more unbelievable than any other appearance, and it was enough to trigger a relapse.

They both are unbelievable circumstances in that Ridley could be dead in both. I don't see how the one Super Metroid should be ruled out just because it's slightly less in magnitude as you say. It has similar undertones of brutality and Ridley being the center of that brutality. In fact you could argue because of that, it might make more sense for her to panic and tremble in Super Metroid because of how more similar the encounter is to her child encounter with Ridley. It has the same level of helplessness too because the deaths of those scientists were out of her control.

Also given the time it took Samus to get to Tourian (and the fact that she was the only threat on Zebes), I don't see how hard it could be for some Space Pirates to grab Ridley and escape. The little critters are able to escape.

 

[Christine]

But PTSD isn't something you just put behind you. Is there no reason for people in the real world to have relapses, too? Is the cause of your trauma coming back from the dead after having an entire planet exploded with him on it not a good reason for a relapse? Do you seriously think it's not likely for a person to lose their cool in that specific situation?

"In some instances, people may relapse and begin to experience symptoms after they have ceased therapy and stopped taking medication. This can happen even years after the end of the treatment." http://www.psychguides.com/guides/ptsd-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/

That isn't important, though. We're talking about the diagnostic realism of human psychic stress in a fantasy space opera about magic armor and dragon pirates. What matters is not plausibility but verisimilitude. If you were to write dialogue (in any context) that very realistically portrayed the way people talk to each other in real life, complete with filler words, phrase echoing and non sequitur, you would probably have some pretty shitty dialogue that would be improved by making it less true to life.

And in specific, this is a plot event that is completely unearned by the narrative. Worse, once it's established it's not used for anything.

Because, unlike those times, she was absolutely certain he was gone for good this time since she blew up an entire planet with him on it. She says at the beginning of the game that she thinks he's gone for good. And then there he is. Back again after THAT. What the hell does she have to do to get rid of him?

This is a game in a series of games in which this particular character is established as repeatedly coming back from being 'gone for good'. It's practically his shtick at this point, completely expected and unsurprising to anyone who's played any other games in this series. You'd have to do quite a bit to subvert that expectation, and this doesn't even come close to cutting it:

"Thanks to the Hyperbeam, which was given to me somehow by the baby, I laid Mother Brain to waste. The explosion that followed destroyed planet Zebes, along with the remains of Mother Brain, the Space Pirates, and my long-standing nemesis Ridley... and the baby."

There isn't anything in there that talks about her expecting him to be "gone for good". You're entirely projecting that to somehow wedge in the scene that happened.

And no, the commercial and other creator notes aren't canon. The text is the text. Are you going to go around to every person who plays this game, explaining PTSD and Sakamoto's ideas, until the end of time?

 

[Diffense]

He doesn't stop you from going to the final level. He stops you from going into a level that would be unwinnable since there are no weapons that can fight the metroids in that level and directs you to the real final level because you are the only one capable of defeating the final bosses. He literally says that the reason he takes the suicide mission in Samus' place is because he's not as powerful as Samus.

And Queen Metroid finally stopped Ridley instead of Samus
And MB stopped the Deleter instead of Samus
And the Federation stopped MB instead of Samus
And Anthony stopped the Bottle Ship instead of Samus

I was still glad to play another Metroid but Other M was strange because of how Samus was treated in it. Even if we ignore her characterization and monologues, the plot itself pushed her off to the side at key moments on more than one occasion. The incident with Adam destroying the Metroid hive was just one of many events that the game built up only to have it resolved by someone else other than the main character. This thread really helped me to pin down why I beat it and yet felt somewhat unsatisfied.

 

[RagnarokX]

They both are unbelievable circumstances in that Ridley could be dead in both. I don't see how the one Super Metroid should be ruled out just because it's slightly less in magnitude as you say. It has similar undertones of brutality and Ridley being the center of that brutality. In fact you could argue because of that, it might make more sense for her to panic and tremble in Super Metroid because of how more similar the encounter is to her child encounter with Ridley. It has the same level of helplessness too because the deaths of those scientists were out of her control.

Also given the time it took Samus to get to Tourian (and the fact that she was the only threat on Zebes), I don't see how hard it could be for some Space Pirates to grab Ridley and escape. The little critters are able to escape.

Him coming back in Other M is more unbelievable by several orders of magnitude. You're comparing a single section of the planet exploding which Ridley wasn't even in to the entire planet exploding. And Samus literally states in Other M that she believes Ridley to be permanently dead this time. And she was right. But she didn't expect scientists from her own society to accidentally clone him.

That isn't important, though. We're talking about the diagnostic realism of human psychic stress in a fantasy space opera about magic armor and dragon pirates. What matters is not plausibility but verisimilitude. If you were to write dialogue (in any context) that very realistically portrayed the way people talk to each other in real life, complete with filler words, phrase echoing and non sequitur, you would probably have some pretty shitty dialogue that would be improved by making it less true to life.

And in specific, this is a plot event that is completely unearned by the narrative. Worse, once it's established it's not used for anything.



This is a game in a series of games in which this particular character is established as repeatedly coming back from being 'gone for good'. It's practically his shtick at this point, completely expected and unsurprising to anyone who's played any other games in this series. You'd have to do quite a bit to subvert that expectation, and this doesn't even come close to cutting it:

"Thanks to the Hyperbeam, which was given to me somehow by the baby, I laid Mother Brain to waste. The explosion that followed destroyed planet Zebes, along with the remains of Mother Brain, the Space Pirates, and my long-standing nemesis Ridley... and the baby."

There isn't anything in there that talks about her expecting him to be "gone for good". You're entirely projecting that to somehow wedge in the scene that happened.

And no, the commercial and other creator notes aren't canon. The text is the text. Are you going to go around to every person who plays this game, explaining PTSD and Sakamoto's ideas, until the end of time?

Works of fiction often play up the effects of mental disorders for the sake of drama. That doesn't mean that the fiction isn't trying to convey a mental disorder. It's not trying to be completely realistic and it doesn't need to be, but it's still grounded in a real thing that happens and its depiction is similar to how others have dealt with it. The person I responded to said it was unrealistic for someone to have a relapse so I showed them that it wasn't. You're going to say that's not relevant?

Ridley has to be a surprise to Samus for it to work in the first place. The stark contrast between how Samus acts in that scene compared to everywhere else in the game is what sells it as PTSD and not just a normal character trait of Samus. It's what makes it not a part of Samus' personality.

She says that the explosion of the planet destroyed Ridley and his remains. What part of that makes it sound like something remained of Ridley to come back from? She destroyed Ridley and everyone who would want to bring him back.

They put the scene in a game as an ending but changed it for the American release in favor of giving players more fan-servicey ending pics. The commercial was made for Other M and depicts Ridley attacking Samus when she was a kid, Samus as a soldier with Adam, and Samus fighting Mother Brain in Super. Clearly it was meant to tie into the game. Plus, the game references the event by showing Samus as she was when the event happened.

And Queen Metroid finally stopped Ridley instead of Samus
And MB stopped the Deleter instead of Samus
And the Federation stopped MB instead of Samus
And Anthony stopped the Bottle Ship instead of Samus

I was still glad to play another Metroid but Other M was strange because of how Samus was treated in it. Even if we ignore her characterization and monologues, the plot itself pushed her off to the side at key moments on more than one occasion. The incident with Adam destroying the Metroid hive was just one of many events that the game built up only to have it resolved by someone else other than the main character. This thread really helped me to pin down why I beat it and yet felt somewhat unsatisfied.

I didn't say the plot was good. I'm just against the misperceptions people have that makes it worse for them. It totally ends in a completely bizarre anticlimax. Adam destroying Sector Zero was fine, though they could have done it without the stupid freeze gun that somehow knocks Samus out in one shot. I mean, it was a suicide mission and a trap. If Samus did it herself she would have just died and that would have been a worse end. But the reason Adam takes the mission instead of Samus is because Samus is more powerful and the only person that can stop Ridley... though Ridley gets killed by the Metroid Queen. They should have had Samus fight Ridley again and kill him, but I guess they wanted to set up Fusion. Still, Samus is the only one capable of fighting the Metroid Queen, so at least she got to do that.

 

[Astral Dog]

Im starting to think you are some kind of Ridley AI that was happy when Samus became a little girl and he beat her.

 

[Griss]

What do people feel about the way they played up Samus' female aspects? Examples:

-Her suit is now magically linked to her emotions when before it was simply solid, corporeal bird armour
-She is obsessed with motherhood (in a cross-species way that defies believability), and this intrinsically female theme permeates the whole game
-Multiple 'male gaze' shots of her body at the beginning
-Romantic interest introduced with Adam, leading to emotional love tragedy
-We get a monologue to show us just how personally she takes all social interaction (like women do, duh!) "the word he so obviously chose, "outsider," pierced my heart" etc etc

From this perspective, it seemed obvious to me that having Samus freak out at Ridley was nothing more than another ham-fisted attempt at showing how 'female' she was, because of course a female would freak out, right? And lose her emotion-powered armour. But... but it's okay because she gets him in the end despite how horrifically female she is. She actually overcomes that crippling disability! What a hero!

I find the PTSD argument disingenuous bullshit that ignores the obvious reasons for the scene, one made clear by the entire context of the game and the themes therein. How on earth does this game, and the writing therein, deserve the benefit of the doubt in any way? As the TV Tropes write-up states, if it was just one or two things it would be a coincidence, but to write every part of the game in this way and every part of Samus in this way... it's clearly intentional and the Ridley scene has to be seen through that prism.

Im starting to think you are some kind of Ridley AI that was happy when Samus became a little girl and he beat her.

Oh fuck that killed me, lol.

 

[RagnarokX]

What do people feel about the way they played up Samus' female aspects? Examples:

-Her suit is now magically linked to her emotions when before it was simply solid, corporeal bird armour
-She is obsessed with motherhood (in a cross-species way that defies believability), and this intrinsically female theme permeates the whole game
-Multiple 'male gaze' shots of her body at the beginning
-Romantic interest introduced with Adam, leading to emotional love tragedy
-We get a monologue to show us just how personally she takes all social interaction (like women do, duh!) "the word he so obviously chose, "outsider," pierced my heart" etc etc

From this perspective, it seemed obvious to me that having Samus freak out at Ridley was nothing more than another ham-fisted attempt at showing how 'female' she was, because of course a female would freak out, right? And lose her emotion-powered armour. But... but it's okay because she gets him in the end despite how horrifically female she is. She actually overcomes that crippling disability! What a hero!

I find the PTSD argument disingenuous bullshit that ignores the obvious reasons for the scene, one made clear by the entire context of the game and the themes therein. How on earth does this game, and the writing therein, deserve the benefit of the doubt in any way? As the TV Tropes write-up states, if it was just one or two things it would be a coincidence, but to write every part of the game in this way and every part of Samus in this way... it's clearly intentional and the Ridley scene has to be seen through that prism.



Oh fuck that killed me, lol.

Now this is some projecting.

-Her suit has been like that since Zero Mission. She had to go without it for a while because her fighting spirit had been damaged when she was shot down by space pirates and she didn't get it back until she passed the Chozo test.
-She is not obsessed with motherhood. She comments that the baby metroid thought she was its mother but the way she describes it is fairly cold and non-emotional. The plot of the shadow organization was to create MB as a mother figure to control the metroids. MB was obsessed with being a mother protecting herself and her children. Madeline Bergman also treated MB as a daughter. But Samus herself? Not really.
-Adam is not a romantic interest. He's a parental figure. It is tragic to her that he dies as it would be tragic for anyone to lose someone they cared about. It's not a particularly gender specific trait. Solid Snake had a bigger reaction to a woman he barely knew dying.
-Samus used to have a very personal connection to Adam and deep trust, and being treated as an outsider cuts deep. What about this is womanly. It hurts anyone to be disowned.
-PTSD is a woman thing now? If their goal was to make this a womanly character trait why does Samus only react this way in this particular scene? Wouldn't a guy react the same way? I mean, it's a soul-crushing situation. He killed her parents and won't stay dead no matter what she does.

Im starting to think you are some kind of Ridley AI that was happy when Samus became a little girl and he beat her.

Think this is bad? Get him started on defending Skyward Sword.

Spoiler

Actually, don't.

Spoiler

Please.

So we're just going to resort to ad hominems, now?

 

[Veelk]

Im starting to think you are some kind of Ridley AI that was happy when Samus became a little girl and he beat her.

Think this is bad? Get him started on defending Skyward Sword.

Spoiler

Actually, don't.

Spoiler

Please.

 

[Griss]

Now this is some projecting.

-Her suit has been like that since Zero Mission. She had to go without it for a while because her fighting spirit had been damaged when she was shot down by space pirates and she didn't get it back until she passed the Chozo test.

This was never my reading of this situation. I read it as her suit broke during crash landing, and she found a backup in a Chozo temple. Anything to support your interpretation? I mean, you might be right, but I'd just like to see some proof.

-She is not obsessed with motherhood. She comments that the baby metroid thought she was its mother but the way she describes it is fairly cold and non-emotional. The plot of the shadow organization was to create MB as a mother figure to control the metroids. MB was obsessed with being a mother protecting herself and her children. Madeline Bergman also treated MB as a daughter. But Samus herself? Not really.

She is oddly preoccupied with the death of a non-human, non sentient creature, and refers to it as 'the baby' continually, and her thoughts often touch on its fate. This is weird. Obsessed? Alright, wrong word. But she sees things with a distinctly maternal viewpoint or outlook to a very strange extent. This isn't surprising, since (as you point out) motherhood is the key theme of the game and all female characters are caught up in that theme in some way. The hint is in the title, twice. (Because god forbid they do anything subtle in this game.)

-Adam is not a romantic interest. He's a parental figure. It is tragic to her that he dies as it would be tragic for anyone to lose someone they cared about. It's not a particularly gender specific trait. Solid Snake had a bigger reaction to a woman he barely knew dying.

I thought the relationship between Adam and Samus definitely had a potentially romantic tinge to it, though I accept that it was certainly set up as a paternal father / daughter thing. Her reaction to his death is fair enough, but...

-Samus used to have a very personal connection to Adam and deep trust, and being treated as an outsider cuts deep. What about this is womanly. It hurts anyone to be disowned.

...her reaction to his words is not. He doesn't 'disown' her. She IS an outsider, and everyone is there on that ship in a professional capacity, so they speak in a professional manner. There's a bunch of soldiers and a bounty hunter. She's the outsider. Taking it in any way personally marks her as being over-emotional and unprofessional. It's as if she doesn't understand the social / professional reality of the situation she's in. Again, I think this is because the writer's intrinsic sexism caused him to write a poor character.

-PTSD is a woman thing now? If their goal was to make this a womanly character trait why does Samus only react this way in this particular scene? Wouldn't a guy react the same way? I mean, it's a soul-crushing situation. He killed her parents and won't stay dead no matter what she does.

PTSD isn't a woman thing, but I don't believe that's what this scene was about. If the game wanted to show us Samus having PTSD, it could have spent even one brief moment setting the stage for that, by focusing even a bit some of her history that might explain it - things like her prior encounters with Ridley, her parents getting killed, the 'baby' being stolen, any of that stuff. We don't get to see that. Instead we get to see stuff regarding the baby and Adam, stuff that emphasises Samus' basic femininity both maternally and socially. All we get about Ridley is 'he's my longstanding nemesis' or some such. That's it.

And no, a guy wouldn't react the same way as Samus here because it makes no sense for any human to react that way to their 'longstanding nemesis' after facing them so often and winning. But to a sexist writer desperate to show how womanly his hero is at every turn, perhaps another chance to show her emotions get the better of her was too good to turn down.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'll say that you're making your points patiently and fairly, but I'll never buy what you're selling here. We're worlds apart in our reading of what was on screen.

 

[direct_quote]

Him coming back in Other M is more unbelievable by several orders of magnitude. You're comparing a single section of the planet exploding which Ridley wasn't even in to the entire planet exploding. And Samus literally states in Other M that she believes Ridley to be permanently dead this time. And she was right. But she didn't expect scientists from her own society to accidentally clone him.
.

But that doesn't explain why she couldn't have a PTSD in the beginning of Super Metroid . And you didn't touch on my argument that the scene in the science lab was more gruesome and reminiscent of her previous encounter with Ridley (both slaughtering a group of people, Samus powerless to help them etc).

But regardless of the theories around PTSD, I think making a point of her having PTSD because of a dead entity coming back to live, goes against the logic that the previous Metroid games established. It felt like interjecting "realism" in a series where Ridley was just a arch nemesis that kept coming back to life because he was her nemesis (as stated above). Also felt like interjecting character traits in an already established character. Trying to explain away things that are video gamisms or trying to give them meaning really stands out like a sore thumb (and is probably why many people hate Other M). In addition to interjecting traits that feel out of place into an established character.

If they tried to reboot the series or made a prequel/remake of Metroid where Samus first encounters Ridley and breaks down (because she also is lacking in experience and it's her first time seeing him again), that would make a little more sense and actually have significance to the story. Then she could overcome this and become the great bounty hunter we know today. Instead it happens in Other M when she is an established bounty hunter and really makes her look like a helpless girl in amateur hour. Especially when little mishaps like that could get her killed etc, and there's no prior history of this occurring (and you could see several situations where it could have occurred thus making it feel inconsistent that she may have PTSD). In addition the particular scene felt one-offed and had not real significance in the overall plot (because oh hey its Ridley again didn't see that coming). Only really showed that Samus is a vulnerable girl that needs to be saved.

 

[Veelk]

So we're just going to resort to ad hominems, now?

Easy champ, it was a joke.

 

[mantidor]

Huh? But Metroid is what it is BECAUSE it kept like Alien/Aliens. Samus has PTSD because Ellen Ripley has PTSD in Aliens. Samus deals with emotional issues because Ripley deals with emotional issues in Aliens where she meets Newt and develops a maternal bond. Samus becomes part metroid because Ridley clone's DNA is mixed with xenomorph DNA in Alien Resurrection. The Federation has a dark underbelly that wants to use metroids for sinister purposes because that's what Weyland Yutani wants the xenomorphs for in Alien.

The Alien movies weren't about exploring hostile unknown worlds. Alien was about a mining crew being sent to a planet against their will by their employers who knew about and wanted them to bring back xenomorphs. Ripley barely manages to be the only survivor. Aliens is about a colony "accidentally" being built on that same planet and Ripley being forced against her will by her employers to accompany a group of marines back to the planet while dealing with the trauma. Alien 3 is about Ripley accidentally crashing on a planet for male prisoners and trying to survive the prisoners, a xenomorph, and her employers coming to collect and committing suicide to prevent them from getting the alien queen inside her. Alien Resurrection has Ripley being cloned and escaping a space station.

Metroid has added a lot more influence from the Alien franchise over the latest games.

You give waaay too much credit to metroid's writers, they took some inspiration here and there, but the games in no way really give you an actual "Alien" feeling or character, Samus is nothing like Ellen Ripley, specially Other M's Samus. Other M's Samus wouldn't had survived any Alien movie, not even the bottom of the barrel like Alien vs Predator.

 

[Griss]

You give waaay too much credit to metroid's writers, they took some inspiration here and there, but the games in no way really give you an actual "Alien" feeling or character, Samus is nothing like Ellen Ripley, specially Other M's Samus. Other M's Samus wouldn't had survived any Alien movie, not even the bottom of the barrel like Alien vs Predator.

To be fair to Ragnarok, it's clear that they're blatantly cribbing from the Aliens series at this point. All of the things he mentions are far too much to be coincidences, and Sakamoto admitted it was a huge inspiration for the original game. Put 2 and 2 together and it's clear that he has just continued that, without any sense of what parts of Alien might work in Metroid.

 

[Astral Dog]

People dislike baby Ridley, but the way he tricked , then killed those scientists ,waited for Samus to kill the wisps and take their honey, escaped, that showed his intelligence without having him speak, no inner monologue or anything, that was surprisingly subtle for this game.

imagine for example on a Metroid Prime game you see a small, cute creature, this creature appears a few times through the game, feeding on plants, and then the corpses of defeated monsters, it follows Samus, changes so finally becomes a late game boss.

 

[Freshmaker]

But PTSD isn't something you just put behind you. Is there no reason for people in the real world to have relapses, too? Is the cause of your trauma coming back from the dead after having an entire planet exploded with him on it not a good reason for a relapse? Do you seriously think it's not likely for a person to lose their cool in that specific situation?

Nope.

 

[Soph]

I think we're thinking far too deeply about all this, Retro's games and the popularity of the series in the west made the fanbase very western oriented. When the series went back to Sakamoto's hands, we already have a firm grasp and establishment of what Samus should be. While Sakamoto still has his own ideas(he might have not even played any of the prime games), Or on a more devious note: Sakamoto could also envy the praise given to Retro studios with some people regarding Prime 1 the "Citizen Kane" of video games. You know.. that envy when some gaijin studio does better than you previously did on your own created gameseries.

Either way he disregarded Retro's view of Samus and that of the fanbase in favour of his own, he wanted to change certain things about his gameseries and heroine, and it's his right to do so. He never took into account what the fanbase wanted, and while Japan thought the game wasn't all that bad, Europe and America went into all out rage.

Maybe I'm thinking too far into this. In any case, for me Other: M wasn't that much of a disaster, I didn't buy the game as it didn't get the same praise as the previous 5 iterations of the series. I already disregarded it as non-cannon, and am patiently waiting for a new Retro Studio's iteration of the series.

 

[RagnarokX]

This was never my reading of this situation. I read it as her suit broke during crash landing, and she found a backup in a Chozo temple. Anything to support your interpretation? I mean, you might be right, but I'd just like to see some proof.

Actually, come to think of it, it's been like that since Super Metroid. When Samus dies in that game her power suit goes away. But to answer your question:

http://www.metroid-database.com/features/faq.php

Q: Why does her suit come off when Samus is escaping inside her spaceship?

Sakamoto: For Samus's suit to appear, considerable powers of concentration are necessary. In short, it was too constraining. It's the same as a salary man loosening his necktie when returning from a business trip on the bullet train.

Q: Isn't Samus's powered suit integrated with her whole body? After you destroy Mother Brain, and on the way back pursued by space pirates, Zebes is falling apart. Why does she lose her suit when it should be integrated with her. That's my first question. Thank you very much!

Sakamoto: For Samus to remain connected with the Power Suit requires mental energy unfathomable to an ordinary person. In situations like this when she is under pressure, indeed, even Samus is unable to concentrate her mental energy. However, when Samus completes the trial of the spirit of the mural (God of War), she regains her strong force of will and can successfully integrate with the Legendary Power Suit.

She is oddly preoccupied with the death of a non-human, non sentient creature, and refers to it as 'the baby' continually, and her thoughts often touch on its fate. This is weird. Obsessed? Alright, wrong word. But she sees things with a distinctly maternal viewpoint or outlook to a very strange extent. This isn't surprising, since (as you point out) motherhood is the key theme of the game and all female characters are caught up in that theme in some way. The hint is in the title, twice. (Because god forbid they do anything subtle in this game.)

She only talks about it during the intro. That creature saved her life and she is grateful about it. It's also poignant in that it was a creature that she dedicated her life to eradicating but ended up saving her. But she doesn't act like it was a child. Like I said, considering what it did for her, her reaction to its sacrifice was pretty low-key. And why do you think it wasn't sentient? It didn't seem mindless. And why is it being non-human an issue? People care about animals; sometimes more than they care about humans. Samus though? She's pretty matter-of-fact about it.

...her reaction to his words does not. He doesn't 'disown' her. She IS an outsider, and everyone is there on that ship in a professional capacity, so they speak in a professional manner. There's a bunch of soldiers and a bounty hunter. She's the outsider. Taking it in any way personally marks her as being over-emotional and unprofessional. It's as if she doesn't understand the social / professional reality of the situation she's in. Again, I think this is because the writer's intrinsic sexism caused him to write a poor character.

The words have double meaning. It conveys Adam's current feelings about Samus. She's not a close friend and ally anymore. She's an outsider to both the mission and to him. These feelings are not intrinsic to sex. Men and women feel bad when people they used to be close to treat them distantly.

PTSD isn't a woman thing, but I don't believe that's what this scene was about. If the game wanted to show us Samus having PTSD, it could have spent even one brief moment setting the stage for that, by focusing even a bit some of her history that might explain it - things like her prior encounters with Ridley, her parents getting killed, the 'baby' being stolen, any of that stuff. We don't get to see that. Instead we get to see stuff regarding the baby and Adam, stuff that emphasises Samus' basic femininity both maternally and socially. All we get about Ridley is 'he's my longstanding nemesis' or some such. That's it.

And no, a guy wouldn't react the same way as Samus here because it makes no sense for any human to react that way to their 'longstanding nemesis' after facing them so often and winning. But to a sexist writer desperate to show how womanly his hero is at every turn, perhaps another chance to show her emotions get the better of her was too good to turn down.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'll say that you're making your points patiently and fairly, but I'll never buy what you're selling here. We're worlds apart in our reading of what was on screen.

If they wanted to show Samus as a weak and scared woman they could have easily done that. If that's what they were trying to convey they did a terrible job. Why only that scene? Why only for 1 minute? Why tie it into her past? It makes no sense as anything else. It's not like I'm pulling this from my ass. Sakamoto wants her to have PTSD.

And again, this being later in her career does not mean she can't have a relapse PTSD episode. I think people have a hard time understanding that it's not normal fear. It's not rational fear. It doesn't matter that Samus has fought him several times and won. PTSD causes you to relive the traumatic event in a flashback. Think of it as she was having a nightmare while standing up. It was out of her control until she "woke up". I think that having the person that caused you to have PTSD come back to life from the odds he overcame in Other M would set most people off.

But that doesn't explain why she couldn't have a PTSD in the beginning of Super Metroid . And you didn't touch on my argument that the scene in the science lab was more gruesome and reminiscent of her previous encounter with Ridley (both slaughtering a group of people, Samus powerless to help them etc).

But regardless of the theories around PTSD, I think making a point of her having PTSD because of a dead entity coming back to live, goes against the logic that the previous Metroid games established. It felt like interjecting "realism" in a series where Ridley was just a arch nemesis that kept coming back to life because he was her nemesis (as stated above). Also felt like interjecting character traits in an already established character. Trying to explain away things that are video gamisms or trying to give them meaning really stands out like a sore thumb (and is probably why many people hate Other M).

If they tried to reboot the series or made a prequel/remake of Metroid where Samus first encounters Ridley and breaks down (because she also is lacking in experience and it's her first time seeing him again), that would make a little more sense and actually have significance to the story. Then she could overcome this and become the great bounty hunter we know today. Instead it happens in Other M when she is an established bounty hunter and really makes her look like a helpless girl in amateur hour. Especially when little mishaps like that could get her killed etc, and there's no prior history of this occurring (and you could see several situations where it could have occurred thus making it feel inconsistent that she may have PTSD). In addition the particular scene felt one-offed and had not real significance in the overall plot (because oh hey its Ridley again didn't see that coming). Only really showed that Samus is a vulnerable girl that needs to be saved.

But we don't know because Super Metroid doesn't show Samus' emotions. I touched on it that the emotion of the player seeing Ridley there would most likely be fear, and the fact that she is supposed to lose in that encounter.

Like I said above, it doesn't matter that the game isn't her first encounter because PTSD can relapse. And I think that the game made it clear that Samus thought he was dead for good (which he actually was) and she was very surprised that he was alive again.

The scene had no impact on the plot because her reaction wasn't part of her normal personality. It only served to illustrate just how big a nemesis Ridley is to her. He's not just the leader of the biggest criminal organization in the galaxy; her relationship to him is very personal. It's just a shame that Samus didn't get to finish him off. That's the bad part.

You give waaay too much credit to metroid's writers, they took some inspiration here and there, but the games in no way really give you an actual "Alien" feeling or character, Samus is nothing like Ellen Ripley, specially Other M's Samus. Other M's Samus wouldn't had survived any Alien movie, not even the bottom of the barrel like Alien vs Predator.

How am I giving them too much credit by pointing out that they blatantly copied a bunch of ideas from another series?

How would Other M Samus not have survived an Alien movie? She had a 1 minute freakout, but she has a badass powersuit that makes her an unstoppable force of destruction. It's not like she spent the whole game like that. She spent the whole game being a badass killing machine. After her episode she beat the shit out of Ridley, who looks far stronger, quicker, and durable than any xenomorph.

 

[Freshmaker]

The fascinating thing about this thread is no matter what I say, people tell me things like this. I didn't say the scene works. I never said the scene works. I doubt I've ever said that any scene in the game works because I think the plot is a disaster in both concept and execution. What I said was I think it makes sense for Samus to be afraid when she first sees Ridley, and to say Samus isn't allowed to feel fear because that destroys the character is an insidious argument, and one that has no real basis in what the developers have presented us in the previous titles in the series.

Do you want to address the problems with the scene? Go for it. I'll probably agree with most of them.

How about the fact that the freakout is 100% unearned?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Extra Credits did an episode a few years back about the dangers of assigning personalities and dialogue to silent protagonists as it can run the risk of contrasting what personality we can infer from their actions.

If I wasn't at work, I'd link the episode. It directly references Other M as a case study.

 

[Freshmaker]

Extra Credits did an episode a few years back about the dangers of assigning personalities and dialogue to silent protagonists as it can run the risk of contrasting what personality we can infer from their actions.

If I wasn't at work, I'd link the episode. It directly references Other M as a case study.

Meaningless. The games themselves are textual evidence.

 

[Christine]

Works of fiction often play up the effects of mental disorders for the sake of drama. That doesn't mean that the fiction isn't trying to convey a mental disorder. It's not trying to be completely realistic and it doesn't need to be, but it's still grounded in a real thing that happens and its depiction is similar to how others have dealt with it. The person I responded to said it was unrealistic for someone to have a relapse so I showed them that it wasn't. You're going to say that's not relevant?

Yes. I am saying that it is not relevant to try to diagnose Samus as if she was a real person on the basis of a medical history that's not only not explicit but entirely absent. It is true that it takes two to tango, complaining about the scene as an unrealistic portrayal of PTSD is equally and oppositely irrelevant. The entire conversation is a dead end because it doesn't matter. What matters are the expectations created within and by the work, which are clearly insufficient. When you have to try to persuade a significant fraction of the audience to accept or believe a scene in fiction after the fact, the battle has already been lost.

Ridley has to be a surprise to Samus for it to work in the first place. The stark contrast between how Samus acts in that scene compared to everywhere else in the game is what sells it as PTSD and not just a normal character trait of Samus. It's what makes it not a part of Samus' personality.

It doesn't sell it, though. It doesn't even try to. There's absolutely no context for it either before or after the scene. It just happens, without explication and without any relevance to the rest of the plot. Actually, Ridley could have been cut entirely and it wouldn't have any effect on the narrative points with Adam or metroids or anything else. They mention him as a potential telepathic controller for the Zebesians but they already have another one of those in the plot so it's mostly just to dismiss him. His only real purpose in the game is to be a Ridley, which is why he can't go down as a surprise.

The really annoying thing is if a realistic portrayal of PTSD is what matters, it's not at all necessary for her to believe that Ridley is never coming back and be surprised by his return. The stress of being unpredictably triggered by past trauma even when you know what to expect and are doing your best to prepare for it is far more interesting than "The thing I thought couldn't happen happened!"

They couldn't even do that bit right, though. Which means that my dislike for her isn't because she's vulnerable to past trauma, it's because she seems like a stupid and unimaginative person. I don't find her admirable, likable, or even interesting. Following her around as a viewpoint character was an unrewarding chore.

She says that the explosion of the planet destroyed Ridley and his remains. What part of that makes it sound like something remained of Ridley to come back from? She destroyed Ridley and everyone who would want to bring him back.

He's the third item on a list of four. We're talking about 3 seconds of audio in a game with over an hour of cutscenes and they take absolutely no time to make any of what you're saying explicit. You're having to use inferences on the basis of other works to pull this together. This is especially meaningless as Other M manages to contradict many of those in one way or another, so it's not as if one can be definite about any aspect of its backstory that isn't in the text.

Also, 'long-standing' and 'nemesis' both imply that he'll be back. Or, at least they ought to, but when the writers have absolutely no idea what the fuck they're doing, who can tell?

They put the scene in a game as an ending but changed it for the American release in favor of giving players more fan-servicey ending pics. The commercial was made for Other M and depicts Ridley attacking Samus when she was a kid, Samus as a soldier with Adam, and Samus fighting Mother Brain in Super. Clearly it was meant to tie into the game. Plus, the game references the event by showing Samus as she was when the event happened.

It's a reference without anything to refer to, because the event is at best completely unconnected to any part of the narrative and at worst entirely absent from my copy of the game.

I didn't say the plot was good. I'm just against the misperceptions people have that makes it worse for them. It totally ends in a completely bizarre anticlimax. Adam destroying Sector Zero was fine, though they could have done it without the stupid freeze gun that somehow knocks Samus out in one shot. I mean, it was a suicide mission and a trap. If Samus did it herself she would have just died and that would have been a worse end.

That's really not how this sort of thing works. If they had actually made a Sector Zero in the game for you to go through, you'd go through it and beat it no matter how much of a deathtrap suicide mission the exposition says it is. This is not a sequence of events that's actually happening somewhere.

But the reason Adam takes the mission instead of Samus is because Samus is more powerful and the only person that can stop Ridley... though Ridley gets killed by the Metroid Queen. They should have had Samus fight Ridley again and kill him, but I guess they wanted to set up Fusion. Still, Samus is the only one capable of fighting the Metroid Queen, so at least she got to do that.

Yay for her, I guess? She gets to kill something that's there to represent the Metroid II part of the boss tour, yippee.

 

[VARIA]

All I really want to say here. This was the start of Samus's decline for me.

I never really understood this stance. What exactly about the Zero Suit started her decline? Zero Suit in Zero Mission was a nice change of pace and it allowed the developers to finally program a crawl sequence for Samus, something they tried on the NES but were unable to ( hence the morphball ).

If it's about sexualizing Samus, I also don't get it. The Metroid series has given us fan-service since the NES game, even going as far as allowing us to play the whole game with her in a bikini ( Justin Bailey ).

 

[RagnarokX]

Yes. I am saying that it is not relevant to try to diagnose Samus as if she was a real person on the basis of a medical history that's not only not explicit but entirely absent. It is true that it takes two to tango, complaining about the scene as an unrealistic portrayal of PTSD is equally and oppositely irrelevant. The entire conversation is a dead end because it doesn't matter. What matters are the expectations created within and by the work, which are clearly insufficient. When you have to try to persuade a significant fraction of the audience to accept or believe a scene in fiction after the fact, the battle has already been lost.

It doesn't sell it, though. It doesn't even try to. There's absolutely no context for it either before or after the scene. It just happens, without explication and without any relevance to the rest of the plot. Actually, Ridley could have been cut entirely and it wouldn't have any effect on the narrative points with Adam or metroids or anything else. They mention him as a potential telepathic controller for the Zebesians but they already have another one of those in the plot so it's mostly just to dismiss him. His only real purpose in the game is to be a Ridley, which is why he can't go down as a surprise.

The really annoying thing is if a realistic portrayal of PTSD is what matters, it's not at all necessary for her to believe that Ridley is never coming back and be surprised by his return. The stress of being unpredictably triggered by past trauma even when you know what to expect and are doing your best to prepare for it is far more interesting than "The thing I thought couldn't happen happened!"

They couldn't even do that bit right, though. Which means that my dislike for her isn't because she's vulnerable to past trauma, it's because she seems like a stupid and unimaginative person. I don't find her admirable, likable, or even interesting. Following her around as a viewpoint character was an unrewarding chore.

The portrayal isn't 100% realistic and doesn't need to be, but it is based on a real thing. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue with the first paragraph. The person I was arguing with said that it didn't make sense for a real person to have PTSD episode years after treatment and I showed proof that real people have relapses.

It should just happen. That's the point of it being PTSD and not being her personality. That's why it works as PTSD and not anything else. The context is that it refers to her as a child, the point being that she is reliving that memory as if it were occurring right now. They just wrongly assumed that players knew what Ridley did to her when she was a girl. That is a problem they could have and should have fixed. But if you didn't know what happened, knowing now you should be able to reevaluate the scene and understand it instead of clinging to the notion that because they didn't explicitly show Ridley killing her parents and attacking her as a little girl on K-2L in this game it's impossible to make that connection.

It's necessary for the PTSD to be triggered by her being surprised that Ridley is alive because nobody wants Samus having a panic attack EVERY time she sees Ridley. This was a special occasion. She thought she put him out existence and yet there he is.

He's the third item on a list of four. We're talking about 3 seconds of audio in a game with over an hour of cutscenes and they take absolutely no time to make any of what you're saying explicit. You're having to use inferences on the basis of other works to pull this together. This is especially meaningless as Other M manages to contradict many of those in one way or another, so it's not as if one can be definite about any aspect of its backstory that isn't in the text.

I'm not inferring from anything but what she says. She says that the destruction of the planet destroyed the remains of Mother Brain, the Space Pirates, Ridley, and the baby metroid. And she was right. She had destroyed them completely. The only reason they came back this time was because people she had no reason to believe would revive them collected DNA off of her powersuit and made clones. Completely unexpected.

It's a reference without anything to refer to, because the event is at best completely unconnected to any part of the narrative and at worst entirely absent from my copy of the game.

It refers to her being attacked by Ridley as a little girl. They should have shown Samus' past in the game for the benefit of people unfamiliar with it, especially since seeing that past in the games was impossible for Westerners, but the thing it refers to does exist.

That's really not how this sort of thing works. If they had actually made a Sector Zero in the game for you to go through, you'd go through it and beat it no matter how much of a deathtrap suicide mission the exposition says it is. This is not a sequence of events that's actually happening somewhere.

Uh... it's a death trap because it's populated with unfreezable metroids that can't be killed by any of Samus' weapons. To make it a level that you could win they'd have to get rid of the unfreezable metroids, but they're the entire point of the sector. The only way to kill them is to cause the sector to self destruct. I mean, they could have made it a level, but it wasn't meant to be a level so I don't see why you're upset... It exists entirely as a reason for Adam to sacrifice himself. It's not like the final boss and leader behind the whole incident was in there.

 

[Toxi]

Uh... it's a death trap because it's populated with unfreezable metroids that can't be killed by any of Samus' weapons.

Blowing them up seems to work just fine, and Samus killed the Metroid Queen with a Power Bomb.

 

[RagnarokX]

Blowing them up seems to work just fine, and Samus killed the Metroid Queen with a Power Bomb.

The Metroid Queen was a control subject. Metroid Queens are weak against bombs, but normal metroids are only weak to being hit by missiles while frozen. The metroids in sector zero had their weaknesses removed through genetic engineering. It's contrived, but apparently the only thing that could kill them was a much bigger explosion. Like I said, the whole thing only exists as a reason for Adam sacrifice himself. People are acting like it's a cut final level where Samus fights metroids she can't defeat.

 

[Toxi]

The Metroid Queen was a control subject. Metroid Queens are weak against bombs, but normal metroids are only weak to being hit by missiles while frozen. The metroids in sector zero had their weaknesses removed through genetic engineering. It's contrived, but apparently the only thing that could kill them was a much bigger explosion.

This is fanfic. The game only says that the Metroids' ice weakness was removed. There is nothing to indicate their weakness to explosions was removed.

And Metroids could be blown up by Power Bombs in Super Metroid and the Prime games, so it's not like they've been shown as immune to attacks when not frozen.

 

[RagnarokX]

This is fanfic. The game only says that the Metroids' ice weakness was removed. There is nothing to indicate their weakness to explosions was removed.

And Metroids could be blown up by Power Bombs in Super Metroid and the Prime games, so it's not like they've been shown as immune to attacks when not frozen.

In Super it took 3 power bombs to kill a metroid. In Other M power bombs have infinite ammo but take a long time to recharge. They also said that the self destruct sequence is triggered by causing damage in sector z.

Tallon metroids are weaker than normal metroids. They could be blown up by regular bombs and beams.

 

[Earthpainting]

Blowing them up seems to work just fine, and Samus killed the Metroid Queen with a Power Bomb.

To be fair they weren't able to blow up metroids in Fusion and Zero mission as far as I know, and the Power Bomb only worked on the inside of the queen in Other M. We also don't know just how badly infested Area Zero is, nor do we know what other enhancements the metroids got. There's no reason to assume he was wrong when he described how bad it was there. Your gut reaction may be a "nuh uh", just like Samus', but assuming characters are wrong opens up a can on worms in every single piece of fiction. Whether he is correct or not ultimately is irrelevant because Samus has no decision in the matter.

I think the blowing up whole Area Zero thing was a decent idea. It subverted the expectation of having to deal with another area full of metroids, and it helped set up Adam's death. The thing I disliked about the sequence was Adam incapacitating Samus. Sure, you're supposed to think he did that so she wouldn't stop him from going, but it didn't flow well at all. He shoots you in the back like a punk, gives an obvious excuse for shooting you, and then goes on the suicide mission himself. That's not the note I imagined Adam going out on. Rather than the mentor figure Samus described him as, he came across as the same distrustful and patronising person that he was throughout the entire game. I never felt like we got to know the Adam she mentioned in Fusion. I can only assume that the Adam she described in Fusion is the one from her past.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone that thought Other M had a good script, but I do wonder to what extent it is salvageable. Most of the characterisation problems people have come from the intro monologues and the Ridley scene. The intro can easily be re-tooled, and perhaps used to better set up the upcoming events. The Ridley scene however could need a lot more extensive rewrites and direction. The authorisation excuse was one I actually quite liked for the most part, but they stretched it beyond its limitations with the lava room. That would definitely need addressing too.

 

[jimi_dini]

She spent the whole game being a badass killing machine.

But has the IQ of a toaster.

"I will rather die than enable varia suit w/o Adam's authorization. Adam would be mad at me for doing that, so I won't do it. I do not want Adam to be mad at me. I will not even ask him because herp derp"

btw. Samus's character doesn't grow. Nothing happens because of her actions. She doesn't even defeat Ridley. She - the "badass killing machine" - even misses 2 point blank shots at Ridley. That's how "badass" she is.

 

[RagnarokX]

But has the IQ of a toaster.

"I will rather die than enable varia suit w/o Adam's authorization. Adam would be mad at me for doing that, so I won't do it. I do not want Adam to be mad at me. I will not even ask him because herp derp"

btw. Samus's character doesn't grow. Nothing happens because of her actions. She doesn't even defeat Ridley. She - the "badass killing machine" - even misses 2 point blank shots at Ridley. That's how "badass" she is.

The varia suit thing was dumb but I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously. Was it not also dumb to leave her suit upgrades at home in Super? They just wanted a section where Samus goes through a hot area without the varia suit like in other Metroid games.

Her character does grow. She comes to terms with her past. She starts the game full of doubts and by the end she's reaffirmed herself and put her relationships with other people on better terms. It sucks that she didn't get to kill Ridley, but her fight with him sure was intense. Also, the two shots weren't point blank, she was backflipping out of the way, and Ridley was moving fast and dodged.

 

[Szadek]

The varia suit thing was dumb but I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously. Was it not also dumb to leave her suit upgrades at home in Super? They just wanted a section where Samus goes through a hot area without the varia suit like in other Metroid games.

Her character does grow. She comes to terms with her past. She starts the game full of doubts and by the end she's reaffirmed herself and put her relationships with other people on better terms. It sucks that she didn't get to kill Ridley, but her fight with him sure was intense. Also, the two shots weren't point blank, she was backflipping out of the way, and Ridley was moving fast and dodged.

After everything Samus has done she has no reason to doubt herself.
She has archived more than possibly any other person in the galaxy ,and has proven in MP hunter and MP3 that she is indeed the best bounty hunter in the galaxy.

 

[Ushojax]

The varia suit thing was dumb but I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously.

If it wasn't meant to be taken seriously then it shouldn't have been in the game. It was one of many moments in Other M that shows Sakamoto does not understand Samus. He seems to think she would rather die than disobey a stupid order from a male superior.

Sakamoto's whole concept for the story was essentially 'Samus is just a woman', with all the horrific cliches that implies. The script is just so Japanese it's untrue, painfully literal dialogue, awkward interactions between characters and a lustful depiction of Samus as a flaky little girl.

 

[HGH]

I kinda skipped over some conversations so sorry if these points have already been brought up.

Executive meddling and Sakamoto's incompetence as a writer aside, I wonder if part of the reason why Adam and the relationship with him seems so bad is culture clash? I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything here, but in Japan, isn't the way things work basically "Your superior is always right and you can never disagree with them ever"?
So basically Samus following Adam's flawed orders is supposed to be something responsible and her attempts at defying them (both in the flashback and Sector Zero parts) are supposed to be signs of immaturity and bad personality, but to us it just appears submissive or weak.
Although it really doesn't help that Adam is incredibly incompetent in-game. If you pay attention to all the authorization stuff it seems like the guy isn't even paying attention to what you're doing 90% of the time and just happens to sometimes notice that Samus is being blocked by something she could easily overcome. Samus is supposed to respect this man and his skills, knowledge, etc, but that stuff is never, ever demonstrated in game.

I've also heard of some difficulty between Team Ninja and the writers? Like, they made parts of the game where you were clearly supposed to get a powerup, but then all the powerups had to be turned into "authorization" which suddenly makes lots of parts seem stupid.
For example, maybe the part before you get the Varia Suit was intended to be a challenge, like a speed run of sorts, and then you get rewarded with the Suit at the end for beating the boss. But then Sakamoto comes in and suddenly it just seems like Samus is being incredibly stupid and blindly following orders, because that's what's expected of her.

Again, I'm not trying to say anything insensitive but it very much seems like this was written for one audience and ignored all the other ones.

 

[jimi_dini]

The varia suit thing was dumb but I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously.

Then do it in a non-dumb way.

Varia suit gets damaged because of some alien puking on it. Varia suit fixes itself, but that takes time and Samus gets locked inside that lava area. Done.

Or wait, Samus has the Varia suit, but the lava area is just way too hot (it's an experimental area for high-tech suits) and she needs a second Varia upgrade. Done.

Hell, make her forget the Varia upgrade and let her keep it in her space ship right at the start and then let me get it back later. That would have been less stupid than what they did.

Why not even keep her whole suit back in the ship because of "security reasons" and make her wear a provisional experimental suit and she has to get back her actual suit after they figure out what's going down. Could have even used Zero Suit for the first 5 hours, that way Team Ninja could have shown us more of Samus's ass.

Just put Adam right in the middle of the lava area and he's dying and that's why Samus doesn't have the time to get the Varia suit upgrade (well in that case they could have added another ending, where Adam dies because Samus had to get the Varia upgrade).

Firing a weapon, ok. It's still stupid when you know that there is noone else in that space station, but whatever. Not using a suit upgrade? Where is the danger of that? There is none.

They just wanted a section where Samus goes through a hot area without the varia suit like in other Metroid games.

like in other Metroid games?
I can't think of a single one where the game forces you to go through a hot area without the Varia suit.

Other games use such areas to effectively force the player to get the Varia suit. Which is a pretty smart idea.

Also, the two shots weren't point blank, she was backflipping out of the way, and Ridley was moving fast and dodged.

I think you haven't seen the cutscene recently.

Ridley flies directly towards her. She just has to fire straight and still misses that shot and only then does she dodge slightly. Fires again and misses ... again. When she fires the second shot, she is a few centimeters away from Ridley. It's laughable. It's bad.

If her aim was that bad, she wouldn't have survived anything before it.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Executive meddling and Sakamoto's incompetence as a writer aside, I wonder if part of the reason why Adam and the relationship with him seems so bad is culture clash? I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything here, but in Japan, isn't the way things work basically "Your superior is always right and you can never disagree with them ever"?
So basically Samus following Adam's flawed orders is supposed to be something responsible and her attempts at defying them (both in the flashback and Sector Zero parts) are supposed to be signs of immaturity and bad personality, but to us it just appears submissive or weak.

This is the impression I get. Remember that Samus's big inner conflict during the game - seemingly the reason she feels that she owes Adam so much - is because she feels she betrayed him just by daring to question his decision when his brother died. It rings hollow, and I don't think it makes sense unless you view it as a story written for and by a culture that puts massive emphasis on duty.

 

[Lowlander2]

Metroid: Other M - The Elephant in the Room

Excellent analysis of the game and the script, the characters and their interactions. A must read imo.

Wow, this is actually...really good. With an accusation like sexism, you have to be sure of what you're saying when a claim is that heavy, which this article acknowledges. But boy, does this pull no punches. I don't know if Other M is 50 Shades bad, but it's definitely Twilight bad. (I've seen every film >_>)

That said, the conclusion to the piece is definitely outdated. It's very hard to say whether this will be the continuing direction of the franchise considering it's been almost five years since the game came out, and there hasn't been a single announcement of a new Metroid game since. In fact, even though it's slightly tangential, I think the only remnants of Other M in the new Smash Bros are the updated Samus design, the new furnace level and a trophy of Baby Ridley. You'd expect there to be a trophy for Adam, or for a GF troop, or for Madeleine Bergman considering it's the latest entry in the series, but if there are few hints of Other M in Smash Bros, the celebration of Nintendo?

They know.

Spoiler

I could be wrong, there may actually be trophies of these.

 

[Metroxed]

Also every man in Other M is an absolute beast, towering over Samus, whose 6'3". Anthony must have been nearly 8 feet tall based on the ending of Other M.

This shows the rather sexist dynamics of the relationships between characters in the game. Samus (prior to this game a self-reliant, strong character) is reduced to a sexist stereotypical representation of a woman (too emotional, too fragile, can't overcome past events, almost weak, who can't make decisions of her own and needs Adam to tell her what to do). Despite Samus being a bounty hunter that by now (almost at the end of the timeline, even if we pay no mind to the Prime trilogy, that we should) has personally and almost without help accomplished far more than whatever this guy Adam has done, she is depicted in a fashion that shows her being easily overpowered (psychologically) by him and basically the rest of the team.

The fact that they all tower over Samus despite her being 6'3'' sums up to this. The notion that women should not be taller than men is sexist in nature, and reflects clearly on this game. So either Sakamoto decided she was not 6'3'' anymore and made her average height so the male protagonists could be taller than her or Adam and the rest are all giants.

 

[Frumix]

I think we should be able to evaluate the quality of the story without a "but in Japan this may be fine" refrain because Japanese videogames have depicted strength, loyalty and relationships before, and quite often did it better. Other M is just bad and the writing is trash. That's all there is to it. No particular cultural misunderstanding.

 

[mantidor]

How am I giving them too much credit by pointing out that they blatantly copied a bunch of ideas from another series?

How would Other M Samus not have survived an Alien movie? She had a 1 minute freakout, but she has a badass powersuit that makes her an unstoppable force of destruction. It's not like she spent the whole game like that. She spent the whole game being a badass killing machine. After her episode she beat the shit out of Ridley, who looks far stronger, quicker, and durable than any xenomorph.

Well,citing Alien in a thread about Other M's story is almost insulting to Alien to begin with, Alien vs Predator has a better story than Other M, it's that bad. They just took some notes here and there, they are so specific and simple that I even have a hard time calling the story "Alien" inspired, they copied some plot points, that's it, they are worlds apart in every other aspect.

Samus could not have survived Alien because Alien movies are about terror against an almost undefeatable creature, with little to no companionship, and as you pointed out at length for Sakamoto the power suit is a magical girl outfit that vanishes when she is in stress, and Alien is a lot about being stressed and terrified and still beating the creature. Also, Samus was saved in Other M constantly, it was pretty embarrasing, she could not even defeat Ridley's smaller form and needed saving (again) from Anthony, she never "wrecked" him. Thats the thing, if she were alone in the bottle ship she would have died, on more than on occasion.

The most grating thing is the disconnection between Samus in game and Samus in cutscenes, she indeed delivers a lot of damage to Ridley in spectacular acrobatic Team Ninja fashion on the battle itself, but when it comes to the pay off she goes back to being completely inept, and Ridley flies away, practically unharmed. Same in the beginning of the fight, she nevers seem to be very good at what she is supposed to be.

The only creature she kills is the Metroid Queen, in a rather terrible way to be honest, the power bomb thing was practically a qte.

 

[MechaX]

Actually, come to think of it, it's been like that since Super Metroid. When Samus dies in that game her power suit goes away. But to answer your question:

http://www.metroid-database.com/features/faq.php

Q: Why does her suit come off when Samus is escaping inside her spaceship?

Sakamoto: For Samus's suit to appear, considerable powers of concentration are necessary. In short, it was too constraining. It's the same as a salary man loosening his necktie when returning from a business trip on the bullet train.

Q: Isn't Samus's powered suit integrated with her whole body? After you destroy Mother Brain, and on the way back pursued by space pirates, Zebes is falling apart. Why does she lose her suit when it should be integrated with her. That's my first question. Thank you very much!

Sakamoto: For Samus to remain connected with the Power Suit requires mental energy unfathomable to an ordinary person. In situations like this when she is under pressure, indeed, even Samus is unable to concentrate her mental energy. However, when Samus completes the trial of the spirit of the mural (God of War), she regains her strong force of will and can successfully integrate with the Legendary Power Suit.

I'm not going to lie, this is the most densely concentrated mass of idiocy I have read in quite awhile. Jesus fucking Christ, Sakamoto. "When she is under pressure, her Power Suit breaks. She also works in one of the most fundamentally dangerous professions in the entire galaxy."

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Until Nintendo announces a new Metroid game I'm accusing Other M of murder. As far as I know it killed the franchise and Nintendo doesn't know what to do next.

I still can't believe they didn't have the option of playing it with a nunchuck. An analog stick for movement and a less cumbersome position when aiming in first person would've helped immensely my frustration while playing it.

Nothing could've remedied the mess of its writing, though. I wish Other M got relegated with the likes of Metroid Pinball: to non-cannon land.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I'm really curious how Japanese players reacted to Samus's characterization, and whether this is a case of values dissonance or not.

Samus seems like such an easy character to write properly: Make her cool, give her some wit, and the occasional tender moment here and there. Her reaction to Adam should have been one of respectful disobedience from the get go. Less "Yes, sir!" and more "Look, I'm not part of the federation anymore. I'll play nice because... obviously you're important to me, but don't act like I'm suddenly a soldier again."

It's depressing to think that one of the industry's go-to cool girls might have secretly been a pouty, self-serious wuss in the minds of her creators this whole time.

I 100% agree with this. Its fucking depressing.

I always pictures Samus being closer to Major Motoko's personality (from Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex TV series). Instead we got a doormat I-hope-senpai-notices-me weak character with daddy issues and low self esteem.

 

[HGH]

I think we should be able to evaluate the quality of the story without a "but in Japan this may be fine" refrain because Japanese videogames have depicted strength, loyalty and relationships before, and quite often did it better. Other M is just bad and the writing is trash. That's all there is to it. No particular cultural misunderstanding.

Yeah, I acknowledge that, I just wanted to throw the idea into the air and see if it sticks.
EDIT: And in retrospect I see this point has kinda been somewhat brought up before so sorry about that.

Remember when Retro wanted to let you actually do bounty hunting in Prime and apparently the creators "What the hell are you talking about, this is insane, why would she ever do that?", and they basically had to explain what a bounty hunter actually does? Basically I was somewhat reminded of that but in reverse.

 

[Szadek]

I'm not going to lie, this is the most densely concentrated mass of idiocy I have read in quite awhile. Jesus fucking Christ, Sakamoto. "When she is under pressure, her Power Suit breaks. She also works in one of the most fundamentally dangerous professions in the entire galaxy."

Yup,it's a load of wank.It creats like a million plot holes just so that other m's story makes a little bit more sense.

Until Nintendo announces a new Metroid game I'm accusing Other M of murder. As far as I know it killed the franchise and Nintendo doesn't know what to do next.

They hinted that they are working on a new metroid game.