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[RagnarokX]

Haha what? None of these make any sense. Samus is a disciplined warrior and the need for a hierarchy during missions is certainly important but she is under no obligation to work within that hierarchy much less be on, as this game portrays it, the lowest ring of it. Given Samus' abilities she should be at least on equal footing as Adam. The point being though, that she's an independent. While this may be a joint operation, she has no obligation to any of the soldiers nor Adam, their military conduct, or regulations. Especially if her life is jeopardy for whatever reason.

Ridley has died and come back many times, this is a non-argument. Not only that but the game can't even go out of it's way to explain WHY Samus has that reaction to Ridley at all. So unless you know what happened from previous games, all you get is her freaking out at this one giant monster but not any of the others in this game. Even by it's own rules it's not justified.

Oh please, first off as others have mentioned Samus has displayed how she feels in other games when Ridley inevitably reappears. Secondly, even in older games if this was an issue they could easily animate it or find a way to make it apparent that something is wrong. Samus suddenly getting down on one knee or starting to slowly walk back then trying to run away or making it so the player can't fire at him in the beginning of the fight while he approaches her for some reason. It doesn't always have to show her face and make her talk to display her emotions. We'd easily be able to infer her emotional state from such things, none of which happened in other encounters with him..

Samus being a mercenary doesn't make the laws of the Federation she is a citizen of not apply. Her only options were to follow orders or leave.

Also, although it's questionable if Other M and the Prime games take place in the same canon, even if counted Ridley does not die in those games with the finality of his death in Super Metroid. He always fell off camera. In Super Metroid Samus obliterates the entire planet his body was on. She makes it clear in the opening cutscene that she is confident that he is dead for good this time.

People also overblow her reaction. It lasts about one minute and she doesn't turn into a crying girl. She screams "Ridley?! No, it can't be!" And stares at him while remembering what happened the first time she met him when she was 3. She snaps out of her flashback just before Ridley grabs her and actively tries to break free when he does.

Metroid: Other M - Samus going against her character by turning to shoot the baby Metroid and Adam stopping her.

I wouldn't say this is against her character. She hesitates at first because she remembers the baby Metroid that saved her life. This baby metroid is different, though, because she wasn't there when it hatched and therefor it didn't imprint on her. She probably realized that or just decided that it wasn't worth the risk since the last time she saved a metroid it caused the problems that she needed to be rescued from. She turned out to be right, since it does try to attack her.

Wrong. The plot of the game is to rescue the baby metroid which was stolen from the Federation labs. Now her going to rescue it could have some feeling involved about caring for this creature, however, I want to note that the question here is whether she cared about it like it was her child. The space pirates and Ridley/Mother Brain by extension are assholes as has been shown before. They are going to treat the creature horribly and try to use it somehow to bolster themselves in someway or another. The "feeling" here could be: 1) To stop them after they stole something which could potentially make them stronger 2) To stop them from mistreating the last animal of its species. So the reason for the rescue isn't some I can't live without the baby level thing but to stop what could be developed by an evil organization after studying it, something the Federation would do as well but that's beside the point.

Honestly, she's still pretty cold towards the baby metroid considering what it did. She talks about it pretty matter-of-factly. She's grateful that it saved her and a bit bummed that it died, but she doesn't act like it was her child. The feeling I took from it was that the whole thing made her kinda question her actions, since the thing that she dedicated her life to eradicating saved her life.

 

[Toxi]

The game's trying to explain her motivations. I get the feeling a lot of people in this thread would just rather she have none.

How does Other M explain Samus's motivations?

Other M doesn't even explain why she's suddenly frightened of Ridley.

People also overblow her reaction. It lasts about one minute and she doesn't turn into a crying girl. She screams "Ridley?! No, it can't be!" And stares at him while remembering what happened the first time she met him when she was 3. She snaps out of her flashback just before Ridley grabs her and actively tries to break free when he does.

There isn't a flashback. She appears as a crying girl in the same exact room and position. One could argue that it's a flashback because she's the same age as when she first saw Ridley in the manga, but that would be an argument depending on an obscure Japanese-only manga that Other M directly contradicts.

 

[jholmes]

How does Other M explain Samus's motivations?

Other M doesn't even explain why she's suddenly frightened of Ridley.

You keep carrying on about how she's shown as a crying child because of Ridley and now you're saying the game doesn't explain why she's frightened of Ridley.

Hey, remember when I said this thread was doing a great job of being on point? Yeah me neither.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

At this point we might as well cite the Captain N comic.

Captain N Samus was still heaps better than Other M Samus, which is saying a lot.

At least in her initial appearance, they did a pretty good job with her face and height. She was still pretty corny, but at least it was more weird-corny than weak-corny.

She became more Barbie-ish looking over time, sadly.

 

[Forkball]

People are complaining about Other M's story, yet they leave out the biggest plot hole... from Super Metroid!

What was the deal with the big gold statue of all the bosses? Who built that? Why did it sink when you defeated all of them? Shit makes no sense.

 

[Toxi]

You keep carrying on about how she's shown as a crying child because of Ridley and now you're saying the game doesn't explain why she's frightened of Ridley.

Hey, remember when I said this thread was doing a great job of being on point? Yeah me neither.

Yeah, I am. Why does Samus appear as a crying child in front of Ridley? Other M certainly never explains why.

I only know because I read a fan translation of a decade-old manga released in Japan.

 

[Demon Lizardman]

You keep carrying on about how she's shown as a crying child because of Ridley and now you're saying the game doesn't explain why she's frightened of Ridley.

Hey, remember when I said this thread was doing a great job of being on point? Yeah me neither.

The game never tells the player that Ridley killed her parents.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

We can't infer anything whatsoever

We can't infer anything from Samus flailing her arm side ways in an exaggerated "damn" motion, clearly meant to express the emotion of frustration she feels by not being able to kill Ridley before he escapes the Orpheon?

Or how she doesn't hesitant for a second and shoots instantly at Ridley, meets him square in the eye and takes a full force tackle from a crazed, radiation infused space dragon down a pit that she didn't know the distance of before impact?

She doesn't even mention zombie mindless screw attack Ridley, ever, in Fusion, where there's ample opportunity for her to break down in tears in a monologue. But she never even mentions it. It's basically routine she's when fighting Ridley. If regular Ridley was able to make her freak out, how does seeing him back, again, as an undead abomination using her most powerful weapon not freak her out enough to monologue about it on an elevator?

What's you're implying is that Retro studios was unable to convey any emotion in Samus at all. And yet, part of the reason people dislike Other M's Samus is because she contradicts the same Samus that Retro gave personality and emotion to, and brought into the third dimension. Other M Samus wasn't the first Samus to show emotion. Far from that. She actually quietly mourns for her fallen fellow hunters in Prime 3. We can feel that emotion through a suit, with no facial animation at all.

It actually takes a lot more talent is a lot more sophisticated to show emotion in a lifeless robot than it is in a talking human being. There's no criteria that we need to see Samus' face to know her emotions, facial animations are not the only way to convey feelings. Body language can be more effective, and for Samus, it very much is.

It lasts about one minute and she doesn't turn into a crying gir

But she literally turns into a crying girl

The game never tells the player that Ridley killed her parents.

Smash Bros does a better job of explaining Samus and Ridley's relationship lol

 

[Haunted]

Did someone say Metroid and babies?

 

[Toxi]

But she literally turns into a crying girl

At this point even Other M's defenders are denying what happened in Other M.

 

[RagnarokX]

There isn't a flashback. She appears as a crying girl in the same exact room and position. One could argue that it's a flashback because she's the same age as when she first saw Ridley in the manga, but that would be an argument depending on an obscure Japanese-only manga that Other M directly contradicts.

Samus was having a flashback, but it wasn't shown in a traditional way. They were trying to be artistic. They really should have shown the flashback since most people aren't familiar with Samus' past, but it's obvious that's what they were going for. They even made that scene for a commercial for the game.

Hey, why don't you put that in the game?!

You could argue that they're trying to make some completely out of nowhere metaphor that Samus is a scared little girl but that's ignoring her history and her characterization in the game itself. That's the ONLY moment where she falters at all and she makes it clear that her relationship with Ridley is special and personal.

But she literally turns into a crying girl

She does not. That would require some kind of magic or science fiction age change ray.

The game does show her as a little girl. Not a crying one, but a scared one. She's reliving a memory. They decided to show this by having the memory and the present merged.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

I feel like the elephant in the room with Other M has always been the creepy idea that Adam is a self-insert for Sakamoto himself.

Samus has become to Sakamoto what Lightning is to Toriyama, a weird fictional pseudo-daughter that he also sort of wants to bone. The personality trait similarities between Lightning and Other M Samus are also pretty striking, and I honestly wonder if this is what passes for a strong female character in Japan's super-demeaning creative environment.

 

[Demon Lizardman]

I feel like the elephant in the room with Other M has always been the creepy idea that Adam is a self-insert for Sakamoto himself.

Samus has become to Sakamoto what Lightning is to Toriyama, a weird fictional pseudo-daughter that he also sort of wants to bone. The personality trait similarities between Lightning and Other M Samus are also pretty striking, and I honestly wonder if this is what passes for a strong female character in Japan's super-demeaning creative environment.

Ws there ever an American writer who was like this as well for video games?

 

[Ezalc]

Point out anywhere in this thread or on these boards where I have said what Samus was thinking or feeling in any game other than Other M.

Also, which other times in the series did we see Samus's face or hear her dialogue when she met Ridley?

I'll admit that I might have misread this. To me it sounded like you were implying "Well we didn't know what she was thinking at the time so she could have been scared then too!" So I apologize for putting words in your mouth, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't always need to see her face nor hear dialogue to see how a character feels about seeing another. In the first metroid prime video that was linked you can easily see the expression of frustration with Samus' gesture with her left hand when Ridley flies away.

Samus being a mercenary doesn't make the laws of the Federation she is a citizen of not apply. Her only options were to follow orders or leave.

The laws of Federation military regulation for their soldiers certainly does not apply to her. Since it was a joint operation her course of action is to operate with the group to achieve a common goal, this does not mean however that she needs to suddenly start taking orders from somebody who is no longer her superior. She should certainly take anything Adam, being the highest ranking official there, into consideration but is in under no obligation to blindly obey him at the cost of her wellbeing.

Also, although it's questionable if Other M and the Prime games take place in the same canon, even if counted Ridley does not die in those games with the finality of his death in Super Metroid. He always fell off camera. In Super Metroid Samus obliterates the entire planet his body was on. She makes it clear in the opening cutscene that she is confident that he is dead for good this time.

People also overblow her reaction. It lasts about one minute and she doesn't turn into a crying girl. She screams "Ridley?! No, it can't be!" And stares at him while remembering what happened the first time she met him when she was 3. She snaps out of her flashback just before Ridley grabs her and actively tries to break free when he does.

I don't believe this condones her reaction. Even with him "dying" off screen it would be enough to convince anybody he's actually dead and even if they thought he might survive it should come as no shock to see him again in that case because you'd think well he made it back from all those other times so this shouldn't surprise me either.

Second, even if the reaction wasn't as overblown as claimed it's still very much exaggerated and far exceeds anything in any of the other games especially when dealing with Ridley's appearance.

Honestly, she's still pretty cold towards the baby metroid considering what it did. She talks about it pretty matter-of-factly. She's grateful that it saved her and a bit bummed that it died, but she doesn't act like it was her child. The feeling I took from it was that the whole thing made her kinda question her actions, since the thing that she dedicated her life to eradicating saved her life.

Which is what I'm trying to prove.

One question though, which actions do you mean here? I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding why you quoted me since you seem to agree with what I was saying.

 

[Broritos]

Your assumption makes less sense if you think about it. Why would she have saved it in the first place, because she cared for it? Uh this was the game where the mission is literally to exterminate metroids. She happened to come upon this one as it hatched, the logical thing to do is either kill it or capture it given that it's the last one of its kind and it wasn't being hostile towards her. I know this is just some theory I'm throwing out, but the only moment I can see Samus having any sort of attachment to it was after it saved her, which would make her feel gratitude and appreciation for the sacrifice not feelings of the loss of a child.

Also, calling it the baby is just easier than saying the baby metroid since it was a baby metroid. I don't feel like if she ever called it that, outside of other m, it would have come from some motherly feeling rather than it just being an easier shorthand. Then again calling it just the metroid works just as well given it's the only one left.

I wasn't making an assumption. It's there in the games as what other posters have already said.

I think you're misunderstanding me when I say that Samus cared for the baby. Not cared as in take care of it, but care as in basically not kill it. The most rational thing to do if you were a Bounty Hunter and your job was to kill all Metroids would be to kill all Metroids, including the baby and yet she didn't do it.

 

[Astral Dog]

People are complaining about Other M's story, yet they leave out the biggest plot hole... from Super Metroid!

What was the deal with the big gold statue of all the bosses? Who built that? Why did it sink when you defeated all of them? Shit makes no sense.

The statues represent the four Space Pirate commanders, Ridley, Kraid, Draygon and Phantoom,not all bosses, its possible it was put there to protect Tourian, that Samus needed to kill them to open the entrance. they hold the "key" to it, Zero Mission has something very similar with Ridlley and Kraid.

 

[jholmes]

We can't infer anything from Samus flailing her arm side ways in an exaggerated "damn" motion, clearly meant to express the emotion of frustration she feels by not being able to kill Ridley before he escapes the Orpheon?

Or how she doesn't hesitant for a second and shoots instantly at Ridley, meets him square in the eye and takes a full force tackle from a crazed, radiation infused space dragon down a pit that she didn't know the distance of before impact?

Yes absolutely we can't infer anything from Samus shooting at a bad guy in a game where shooting bad guys makes up a lot of the playtime. Does she show her steely resolve every time she fires a shot at something?

At this point even Other M's defenders are denying what happened in Other M.

This is going to blow your mind but just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm defending Other M. I think Other M's plot has a lot of issues -- if you'd actually bothered to read my posts you'd know this -- but I don't think giving Samus actual human emotions ruins the character.

Should Other M go into some gory detail on Samus' parents? Maybe, maybe not. That is in fact not what we're discussing here. You're entitled to think the plot could explain something about the back story better. As a broad statement, I think the game probably should explain the back story better. Do I think Samus should defeat the enemies that come her way? It sort of cheapens the impact when the player fights only for it to not matter so yes, I think she should.

But do I think Samus shouldn't be allowed to feel fear when she sees Ridley? No, and I think the argument is preposterous. If Samus is a real character with a human dialogue her emotions should go beyond anger and determination. You disagree? Bully for you. Telling me I'm an Other M "defender" isn't going to shame me into agreeing with you.

we don't always need to see her face nor hear dialogue to see how a character feels about seeing another. In the first metroid prime video that was linked you can easily see the expression of frustration with Samus' gesture with her left hand when Ridley flies away..

While I largely agree with your point, the idea that we're going to attribute emotions to her left hand is a bit much. Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the point of Other M was to flesh out the story in the manner it did, we're talking about emotions a little more nuanced than shaking a fist behind a giant wall of armoured plating. I think we'd all agree with that. Did Other M succeed? No, I don't know anyone's saying it did, but I do think attributing some more complex emotions to Samus was at least a fair idea.

 

[RagnarokX]

The laws of Federation military regulation for their soldiers certainly does not apply to her. Since it was a joint operation her course of action is to operate with the group to achieve a common goal, this does not mean however that she needs to suddenly start taking orders from somebody who is no longer her superior. She should certainly take anything Adam, being the highest ranking official there, into consideration but is in under no obligation to blindly obey him at the cost of her wellbeing.



Which is what I'm trying to prove.

One question though, which actions do you mean here? I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding why you quoted me since you seem to agree with what I was saying.

Of course they apply. She could have been arrested for obstructing the mission. Adam's condition for allowing Samus to join his operation was that she follow orders. If she didn't comply he would have told her to leave, and if she didn't leave then she would be breaking the law by interfering with his mission. The varia suit thing is dumb if you take it too seriously, but I don't think it was meant to be. They just wanted a reason to explain why she didn't start off fully powered. No explanation for that in any Metroid game has been particularly good.

The general tone I took from the game is that it's sort of a midlife crisis for Samus. She just, as far as she knows, permanently wiped out the most evil force in the Galaxy, her personal nemesis, and the metroids. She's accomplished her main goals in life. Yet although the moment was monumental, she's left with doubts about her past. She wiped out the metroids, but the baby metroid saved her life. She has doubts about her relationship with Adam. Other M is about Samus coming to terms with those doubts and reaffirming herself.

 

[Toxi]

The statues represent the four Space Pirate commanders, Ridley, Kraid, Draygon and Phantoom,not all bosses, its possible it was put there to protect Tourian, that Samus needed to kill them to open the entrance. they hold the "key" to it, Zero Mission has something very similar with Ridlley and Kraid.

No point in building a security system that only lifts when your commanders die.

It's just a plot device, but it's a plot device that works fine.

but I don't think giving Samus actual human emotions ruins the character.

Actual human emotions?

Other M comes across like a script written by robots trying to understand human emotions.

 

[jholmes]

Actual human emotions?

Other M comes across like a script written by robots trying to understand human emotions.

Again, zero argument there. Nobody is saying Other M's plot is a masterwork. I think it's a fucking trainwreck to be honest.

But do I think the decision to give Samus emotions -- loving the baby metroid like a pet/child, fearing Ridley -- was a poor one? No.

 

[Toa TAK]

But do I think the decision to give Samus emotions -- loving the baby metroid like a pet/child, fearing Ridley -- was a poor one? No.

Too bad it wasn't done well at all. She comes off like a battered housewife.

 

[Toxi]

But do I think Samus shouldn't be allowed to feel fear when she sees Ridley? No, and I think the argument is preposterous. If Samus is a real character with a human dialogue her emotions should go beyond anger and determination. You disagree? Bully for you. Telling me I'm an Other M "defender" isn't going to shame me into agreeing with you.

Samus shouldn't be allowed to break down crying in fear when she sees Ridley in Other M because it's inconsistent with the character's previous portrayals and no effort is made to explain why.

AKA it's shitty writing and characterization

 

[Ezalc]

I wasn't making an assumption. It's there in the games as what other posters have already said.

I think you're misunderstanding when I say that Samus cared for the baby. Not cared as in take care of it, but care as in basically not kill it. The most rational thing to do if you were a Bounty Hunter and your job was to kill all Metroids would be to kill all Metroids, including the baby and yet she didn't do it.

Alright, I agree with that. The thing is that there are people saying that she cared for it like it was her own child, when the act of not killing it far from confirms any sort of feeling like that.

Of course they apply. She could have been arrested for obstructing the mission. Adam's condition for allowing Samus to join his operation was that she follow orders. If she didn't comply he would have told her to leave, and if she didn't leave then she would be breaking the law by interfering with his mission.

The general tone I took from the game is that it's sort of a midlife crisis for Samus. She just, as far as she knows, permanently wiped out the most evil force in the Galaxy, her personal nemesis, and the metroids. She's accomplished her main goals in life. Yet although the moment was monumental, she's left with doubts about her past. She wiped out the metroids, but the baby metroid saved her life. She has doubts about her relationship with Adam. Other M is about Samus coming to terms with those doubts and reaffirming herself.

Not really. She'd only obstruct the mission if she consciously did something to make an obstacle for Adam and his team, which she never did. He could have given her that condition and she could just chose not to follow it. He has no power over her aside from the time they spent together during her years in the military but even then that doesn't give him the right to order her around, yes she conceded that to him voluntarily but she didn't need to, nor should she have to. This was just Adam having to flex his ego, and even if that wasn't the case at first, the way he goes on to treat her clearly show that he doesn't respect her even after all she's done. If she said no and he didn't want her on the mission but she wanted to stick around I'd like to see them try and get her out of there. Samus obviously wouldn't start killing them for something so stupid but it's not like any of them can stand up to- oh wait Adam has that pistol, never mind. Nope still makes no sense. Regardless, his condition for having her join the operation was bs and his consequent attitude just further confirms that he just wanted to have command over her again.

I disagree with this, since for one this is far from the first time she'd be facing a lot of these old threats. She should have thought about their defeats and then return with each time she fought them. Basically exterminating the metroids is something she should have come to terms with as well and regardless it doesn't make sense for her to be acting in the way that she was. As for her relationship with Adam, she seems to just lap up whatever he says without barely giving a second thought so that didn't seem to be the case either. I don't understand that view since any doubts she should have had should have been dealt with already or just don't seem to exist and were made up just for drama in this game because we don't see them anywhere else.

 

[Astral Dog]

Ws there ever an American writer who was like this as well for video games?

Lara Croft comes to mind.

 

[Toxi]

Again, zero argument there. Nobody is saying Other M's plot is a masterwork. I think it's a fucking trainwreck to be honest.

But do I think the decision to give Samus emotions -- loving the baby metroid like a pet/child, fearing Ridley -- was a poor one? No.

The problem here is that you're no longer talking about Other M, you're talking about some hypothetical game that doesn't exist and will never exist.

Also, stop acting like Other M was the first Metroid game to portray Samus with emotions. As mentioned before, she gets plenty of moments in the Prime trilogy.

 

[jholmes]

Samus shouldn't be allowed to break down crying in fear when she sees Ridley in Other M because it's inconsistent with the character's previous portrayals and no effort is made to explain why.

AKA it's shitty writing and characterization

It is shitty writing but I don't understand your need to refer to her as breaking down crying when what she does is gasp "Ridley!" and sort of stand around.

But you clearly really want her to be crying in that scene so you can stick with that I guess.

The problem here is that you're no longer talking about Other M, you're talking about some hypothetical game that doesn't exist and will never exist.

I'm not talking but Other M, I'm talking about this blowback in the fandom, in which Samus fearing Ridley was referred to as the "rape" of the character and the series was ruined and how if a woman has emotions, she's a "battered housewife." I don't agree and I won't ever agree. I'm allowed to think the game is shit and also not think she's a battered housewife.

 

[HYDE]

Holy shit.

...

That is hucking filarious.

 

[RagnarokX]

Actual human emotions?

Other M comes across like a script written by robots trying to understand human emotions.

Samus was raised by birds and she comes across as someone who struggles in dealing with and understanding human social behaviors. She tries to be an emotionless robot for most of the game, but seeing her friends die and her childhood trama coming back from the dead breaks down her defenses.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yes absolutely we can't infer anything from Samus shooting at a bad guy in a game where shooting bad guys makes up a lot of the playtime. Does she show her steely resolve every time she fires a shot at something?

But she doesn't shoot at the bad guy in Other M, she cowers in fear and it almost gets her friend killed. And it's the same bad guy in both games, the emotion is entirely inconsistent

And this is also ignoring that the very notion Samus didn't know Ridley was alive after seeing teenager Ridley, who is just Ridley with some back hair and no wings, makes it seem like Samus is an idiot. If the player knew that was Ridley, why didn't Samus? In any other game, she's a master of her environment, clever and able to figure problems out quickly. And yet, Ridley with back hair stumped her.

Samus was raised by birds and she comes across as someone who struggles in dealing with and understanding human social behaviors. She tries to be an emotionless robot for most of the game, but seeing her friends die and her childhood trama coming back from the dead breaks down her defenses.

Those birds had art, religion, culture and a very strong, social society as portrayed in the manga, Zero Mission and Prime... There's nothing to indicate Chozo weren't social creatures, in fact they get along well with nearly every race they meet, like the Luminoth. And probably the humans.

 

[Broritos]

The problem here is that you're no longer talking about Other M, you're talking about some hypothetical game that doesn't exist and will never exist.

Also, stop acting like Other M was the first Metroid game to portray Samus with emotions. As mentioned before, she gets plenty of moments in the Prime trilogy.

The idea of fleshing out Samus' character is a sound one. Other M's problem is the execution, not the concept.

 

[Toxi]

Samus was raised by birds and she comes across as someone who struggles in dealing with and understanding human social behaviors. She tries to be an emotionless robot for most of the game, but seeing her friends die and her childhood trama coming back from the dead breaks down her defenses.

None of this is shown in Other M.

Also, friends? I guess Anthony kinda counts. Samus and Adam never act like friends, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't friends with Adam's redshirts.

I'm not talking but Other M, I'm talking about this blowback in the fandom, in which Samus fearing Ridley was referred to as the "rape" of the character and the series was ruined and how if a woman has emotions, she's a "battered housewife." I don't agree and I won't ever agree. I'm allowed to think the game is shit and also not think she's a battered housewife.

Scenes like the Ridley scene ruin the Samus character because no matter how they could have happened, they happened in Other M's shitty way.

Yes, a scene with Ridley scaring Samus could be done well and in a way that doesn't ruin the character. That's not what happened, you're talking about some hypothetical alternate universe where black is white and F-Zero is still alive. In this universe, the Ridley scene is a piece of garbage that ruins the character.

And stop simplifying this to "having emotions". You're acting like the only emotions are fear and angst.

 

[direct_quote]

The idea of fleshing out Samus' character is a sound one. Other M's problem is the execution, not the concept.

I don't think it is really needed. The environments Samus explored, and the upgrades used to explore new areas were always more fascinating and fun then exploring Samus' back story. The bad thing about Other M was it spent too much time trying to build up a bad characterization, and addition to that made a pretty linear story yet again on a dumb ship. Next Metroid needs to be on a planet... it's about exploration and mechanics, not learning Samus has surrogate bird people parents. Any kind of story should be Dark Souls and Prime in fashion, where the environment tells the story.

edit: the fact that indie games get this (see axiom verge), and Sakamoto doesn't is truly mind boggling..

 

[jholmes]

Also, stop acting like Other M was the first Metroid game to portray Samus with emotions. As mentioned before, she gets plenty of moments in the Prime trilogy.

Nice edit here. Look, I've discussed her characterization in the Prime games. I appreciate that you're passionate about your viewpoint but you continue to ignore what I've written and try and call me out on the basis on your selective reading and it's frankly exhausting. I'm trying to make my point clear but you seem determined to go in circles.

And stop simplifying this to "having emotions". You're acting like the only emotions are fear and angst.

I'm not. Other M thinks those are the only emotions one could have though, I'd agree with that.

 

[Broritos]

I don't think it is really needed. The environments Samus explored, and the upgrades used to explore new areas were always more fascinating and fun then exploring Samus' back story. The bad thing about Other M was it spent too much time trying to build up a bad characterization, and addition to that made a pretty linear story yet again on a dumb ship. Next Metroid needs to be on a planet... it's about exploration and mechanics, not learning Samus has surrogate bird people parents. Any kind of story should be Dark Souls and Prime in fashion, where the environment tells the story.

edit: the fact that indie games get this (see axiom verge), and Sakamoto doesn't is truly mind boggling..

Y'know, you're basically agreeing with me.

There are multiple ways to flesh out a character and story within a video game that other forms of media can't. Other M's concept was just trying to flesh out Samus' character and they decided to execute that thru a whole bunch of cutscenes and bad writing.

 

[jholmes]

Y'know, you're basically agreeing with me.

Isn't it peculiar how the disagreements keep popping up all the same?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I don't think it is really needed. The environments Samus explored, and the upgrades used to explore new areas were always more fascinating and fun then exploring Samus' back story. The bad thing about Other M was it spent too much time trying to build up a bad characterization, and addition to that made a pretty linear story yet again on a dumb ship. Next Metroid needs to be on a planet... it's about exploration and mechanics, not learning Samus has surrogate bird people parents. Any kind of story should be Dark Souls and Prime in fashion, where the environment tells the story.

edit: the fact that indie games get this (see axiom verge), and Sakamoto doesn't is truly mind boggling..

Hilariously (and sadly) the bird people back story stuff isn't mentioned at all in Other M. In fact it's basically trampled on and ruined by Samus forgetting she was ever loved by anyone before Adam became her true, real, father, not those bird people who loved her for 14 years of her life and raised her as their own... It's actually insulting to Samus' real backstory, in a game that claims to flesh it out...

Zero Mission actually does a far better job of telling Samus' backstory, without any dialog.

 

[Astral Dog]

I don't think it is really needed. The environments Samus explored, and the upgrades used to explore new areas were always more fascinating and fun then exploring Samus' back story. The bad thing about Other M was it spent too much time trying to build up a bad characterization, and addition to that made a pretty linear story yet again on a dumb ship. Next Metroid needs to be on a planet... it's about exploration and mechanics, not learning Samus has surrogate bird people parents. Any kind of story should be Dark Souls and Prime in fashion, where the environment tells the story.

edit: the fact that indie games get this (see axiom verge), and Sakamoto doesn't is truly mind boggling..

The space station idea is not bad, it fleshes out the world of Metroid a bit, a sci fi concept where Samus encounters wildlife and artificial environments without being on a planet, i think Dead Space for example did this concept very well.

Now how Metroid did it its not as good, but the environments being holograms was a neat idea.

Edit: and Metroid Prime does this as well!

Characterization of Samus can be done but not like Other M, iFusion did it just fine, the game was linear, but that could be fixed.

Zero Mission actually does a far better job of telling Samus' backstory, without any dialog.

And that was done by Sakamoto...

 

[Broritos]

Isn't it peculiar how the disagreements keep popping up all the same?

inorite.

It's not like what we're saying is complex or anything.

 

[VARIA]

No point in building a security system that only lifts when your commanders die.

It's just a plot device, but it's a plot device that works fine.

Actual human emotions?

Other M comes across like a script written by robots trying to understand human emotions.

The funny thing is that there's a really good narrative beneath all the Adam/Samus B.S. and that's the evolution of Ridley. If the stupid human drama story was cut out and the Ridley segments left in without dialogue, it would've made for a more effective story without exposition.

 

[Akibared]

Fusion was my intro to Metroid so I was super hyped to see all the stuff with Adam it's my biggest gaming disappointment.

 

[RagnarokX]

But she doesn't shoot at the bad guy in Other M, she cowers in fear and it almost gets her friend killed. And it's the same bad guy in both games, the emotion is entirely inconsistent

And this is also ignoring that the very notion Samus didn't know Ridley was alive after seeing teenager Ridley, who is just Ridley with some back hair and no wings, makes it seem like Samus is an idiot. If the player knew that was Ridley, why didn't Samus? In any other game, she's a master of her environment, clever and able to figure problems out quickly. And yet, Ridley with back hair stumped her.

Those birds had art, religion, culture and a very strong, social society as portrayed in the manga, Zero Mission and Prime... There's nothing to indicate Chozo weren't social creatures, in fact they get along well with nearly every race they meet, like the Luminoth. And probably the humans.

The Mystery Creature looks different enough that it could not be Ridley. Zebes exploded. It being Ridley is not a conclusion Samus would jump to, nor would she want to.

What we know about the Chozo shows them lacking a bit in the emotion department. The ones that raised Samus were very scientific and no-nonsense and very concerned about the impending doom they needed Samus to save the Galaxy from. The Chozo in the Prime games were a separate group that left behind their focus on technology in favor of living with nature and trying to find spirituality.

Train train train.

 

[direct_quote]

The space station idea is not bad, it fleshes out the world of Metroid a bit, a sci fi concept where Samus encounters wildlife and artificial environments without being on a planet, i think Dead Space for example did this concept very well.

Now how Metroid did it its not as good, but the environments being holograms was a neat idea.

Edit: and Metroid Prime does this as well!

Characterization of Samus can be done but not like Other M, iFusion did it just fine, the game was linear, but that could be fixed.


And that was done by Sakamoto...

And we got that dumb suit malfunctioning sequence that messed up the flow.. I really really really hate the idea that Samus has a suit that can malfunction and completely expose herself . It's a terrible idea if you're on a hostile planet to have a suit that can malfunction and kill you. I still think the series should keep it like it's influences (Alien and Aliens). Exploring hostile "unknown" worlds. Not fleshing out a Universe with a galactic federation, and space pirates that continue to breed Metroids in some inane plot..

 

[Toxi]

Nice edit here. Look, I've discussed her characterization in the Prime games. I appreciate that you're passionate about your viewpoint but you continue to ignore what I've written and try and call me out on the basis on your selective reading and it's frankly exhausting. I'm trying to make my point clear but you seem determined to go in circles.

Where?

You keep talking about what you said and I can't even find where you said it.

Do you think that the Prime trilogy didn't show Samus having emotions? Because scenes like Samus casually waving good bye aren't exactly unemotional.

The space station idea is not bad, it fleshes out the world of Metroid a bit, a sci fi concept where Samus encounters wildlife and artificial environments without being on a planet, i think Dead Space for example did this concept very well.

The problem with the BOTTLE SHIP is that it's basically the same setting as the BSL. It feels like retreading the same territory. The best environmental moments were the holographic rooms, I'll agree.

 

[Akibared]

The problem with the BOTTLE SHIP is that it's basically the same setting as the BSL. It feels like retreading the same territory. The best environmental moments were the holographic rooms, I'll agree.

That's my biggest problem with Other M even having the same plot twist near the end.

 

[Toxi]

And we got that dumb suit malfunctioning sequence that messed up the flow.. I really really really hate the idea that Samus has a suit that can malfunction and completely expose herself . It's a terrible idea if you're on a hostile planet to have a suit that can malfunction and kill you. I still think the series should keep it like it's influences (Alien and Aliens). Exploring hostile "unknown" worlds. Not fleshing out a Universe with a galactic federation, and space pirates that continue to bread Metroids in some inane plot..

Fusion and Other M unfortunately took influence from Alien Resurrection aka the really shitty one.

 

[Astral Dog]

The problem with the BOTTLE SHIP is that it's basically the same setting as the BSL. It feels like retreading the same territory. The best environmental moments were the holographic rooms, I'll agree.

Well i was talking in general, the space station was done better on Fusion, everything was done better on Fusion, except for those holograms, and a kinda dark atmosphere, still it can be done.

But a planet for the next game would be better, with some kind of research facility.

Train train train.

but if we go by this image Samus looks like a happy, strong , confident woman.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I feel like the elephant in the room with Other M has always been the creepy idea that Adam is a self-insert for Sakamoto himself.

Samus has become to Sakamoto what Lightning is to Toriyama, a weird fictional pseudo-daughter that he also sort of wants to bone. The personality trait similarities between Lightning and Other M Samus are also pretty striking, and I honestly wonder if this is what passes for a strong female character in Japan's super-demeaning creative environment.

I didn't follow XIII past the original game. Did Lightning get some weird motherhood arc as well?

Spoiler

I remember watching an event where Toriyama was talking about Lightning while hyping up LR. "Pseudo-daughter that he also sort of wants to bone" is a perfect descriptor for his relationship with the character.

 

[Forkball]

The statues represent the four Space Pirate commanders, Ridley, Kraid, Draygon and Phantoom,not all bosses, its possible it was put there to protect Tourian, that Samus needed to kill them to open the entrance. they hold the "key" to it, Zero Mission has something very similar with Ridlley and Kraid.

Why would you build it though? Why is it made out of gold? Instead of it acting like a key, how about they have... nothing? I mean Samus got into the last area because the statue sunk. Why would you even give Samus a means to get in there? It's got to be the worst defensive measure ever.

 

[RagnarokX]

And we got that dumb suit malfunctioning sequence that messed up the flow.. I really really really hate the idea that Samus has a suit that can malfunction and completely expose herself . It's a terrible idea if you're on a hostile planet to have a suit that can malfunction and kill you. I still think the series should keep it like it's influences (Alien and Aliens). Exploring hostile "unknown" worlds. Not fleshing out a Universe with a galactic federation, and space pirates that continue to bread Metroids in some inane plot..

Huh? But Metroid is what it is BECAUSE it kept like Alien/Aliens. Samus has PTSD because Ellen Ripley has PTSD in Aliens. Samus deals with emotional issues because Ripley deals with emotional issues in Aliens where she meets Newt and develops a maternal bond. Samus becomes part metroid because Ridley clone's DNA is mixed with xenomorph DNA in Alien Resurrection. The Federation has a dark underbelly that wants to use metroids for sinister purposes because that's what Weyland Yutani wants the xenomorphs for in Alien.

The Alien movies weren't about exploring hostile unknown worlds. Alien was about a mining crew being sent to a planet against their will by their employers who knew about and wanted them to bring back xenomorphs. Ripley barely manages to be the only survivor. Aliens is about a colony "accidentally" being built on that same planet and Ripley being forced against her will by her employers to accompany a group of marines back to the planet while dealing with the trauma. Alien 3 is about Ripley accidentally crashing on a planet for male prisoners and trying to survive the prisoners, a xenomorph, and her employers coming to collect and committing suicide to prevent them from getting the alien queen inside her. Alien Resurrection has Ripley being cloned and escaping a space station.

Metroid has added a lot more influence from the Alien franchise over the latest games.

 

[Astral Dog]

Why would you build it though? Why is it made out of gold? Instead of it acting like a key, how about they have... nothing? I mean Samus got into the last area because the statue sunk. Why would you even give Samus a means to get in there? It's got to be the worst defensive measure ever.

Well nobody said that the Space Pirates aren`t inept