MrCunningham
Member
I'm a cartoon giraffe pretending to be Phil Phish.
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This is Phil Fish
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
I'm a cartoon giraffe pretending to be Phil Phish.
Yeah, that makes sense too.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Please come back to us, Phil Fish
TitusGroan
Banned
He wasn't giving an opinion, he was making a general statement of quality. "I don't like Japanese games" is a personal opinion. "Your games suck" and "Your country's games are fucking terrible" are general assertions.
What a load of pedantic bullshit. If I say "Mario games suck", there's an obvious implied "I think" at the beginning of it. You don't have to preface every statement with "I think/don't think" or "I like/don't like" for people to understand it's your personal opinion.
People read too much into Phil Fish's comments and feel personally offended when he says things, and his opinion matters because he speaks for all of us apparently. That's why we have to rag on him time and again, so he doesn't forget and has no way out but to be more of an asshole to us, thereby exposing exactly that side of him we want to see, and not Phil Fish the talented and creative designer.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Didn't it also turn out Fish is bipolar? Weird that the video never brought that up as a point.
SliceSabre
Banned
I watched the whole thing as it turned out to be a lot more thoughtless and interesting than I expected.
My impression of Phil Fish was that he was a game that made an indie and got internet/gamer famous for it along with the indie movie. I wouldn't really call him a massive asshole, I would just said he didn't have much of a filter and people without filters tend to get this kind of treatment unless they're a person like Simon Cowell in which that asshole personality is what he relishes and the public understands that.
I feel bad for the guy though that he basically had to go bunker down and practically disappear in order to have a 'normal' life again.
My impression of Phil Fish was that he was a game that made an indie and got internet/gamer famous for it along with the indie movie. I wouldn't really call him a massive asshole, I would just said he didn't have much of a filter and people without filters tend to get this kind of treatment unless they're a person like Simon Cowell in which that asshole personality is what he relishes and the public understands that.
I feel bad for the guy though that he basically had to go bunker down and practically disappear in order to have a 'normal' life again.
What if you say it at GDC, when speaking to a Japanese developer, at a conference attended by your peers? You are trying to state it as a fact. His argument is that they are objectively inferior games. His argument is that the entire nation has been left behind because they are worse at game design.
How many people discussing personal opinions at GDC go home and have nightmares? The guy he humiliated did. It was not professional, and not an appropriate way to engage with one of your peers asking a polite question at a developer conference, right after he just complimented Fish's work.
We see hundreds of thousands of ignorant and hateful posts in the internet, I don't see a mob rushing to treat/lynch every single one of the posters. We all say stupid stuff on the internet and in real life too all the time, i don't think it has anything to do with upbringing or tact, respect and manners. Those are things lacking from the vast majority of the population in current society (sadly). The difference is he was sub-culturally famous and non-anonymous on the internet. He was too easy of a target, and the responses ticked him off even more, leading to more hate from both sides.
See, I get what you mean, in that environment and position he should have definitely acted more thoughtfully. But the bolded part is just your words now. Opinions are subjective by definition.
The think about Fish is that he always tries to walk it in.
He was asked what he, personally, thought of Japanese games. He gave his personal opinion.
He said "we are kicking your ass." So he drew the division along racial lines, and then said that collectively western design is objectively superior for reasons x and y, and then used sales as the proof. That is all fully implied. And it was delivered in such a blunt and rude way that the whole audience gasped, and the guy he humiliated literally had nightmares that night.
He didn't take it as "just his opinion," and more importantly, this was the prevailing opinion pushed in the media for 7 years at that point as a fact.
coldzero2006
Neo Member
I've never had a strong opinion either way on Phil, this was a well balanced and presented video and does put 'Phil' in context, enjoyed that 
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Don't really care for Philip Fish,
Watched the video there are too many premises/assumptions made.
Don't necessarily agree with being able to read into the intention of someone writing a tweet to nickleback then replacing it with something that would Fit their view on fame/success.
Don't agree necessarily that there isn't a prescribed "right" way to act on the internet.
Don't understand why the concept of escalation/reasonableness isn't used when discussing Phil and his conduct.
Do agree with the fact that reporting will most certainly look at a caricature of the person and highlight things that will go to crystallise that, hence the newsworthy negative tweets over others.
Nothing justifies attacking someone personally to be honest. I haven't liked the way he conducts himself so I haven't wanted to enrich him in any way shape or form.
So the video, I almost agree with the messaging but too many things are posited that I just don't agree with.
Watched the video there are too many premises/assumptions made.
Don't necessarily agree with being able to read into the intention of someone writing a tweet to nickleback then replacing it with something that would Fit their view on fame/success.
Don't agree necessarily that there isn't a prescribed "right" way to act on the internet.
Don't understand why the concept of escalation/reasonableness isn't used when discussing Phil and his conduct.
Do agree with the fact that reporting will most certainly look at a caricature of the person and highlight things that will go to crystallise that, hence the newsworthy negative tweets over others.
Nothing justifies attacking someone personally to be honest. I haven't liked the way he conducts himself so I haven't wanted to enrich him in any way shape or form.
So the video, I almost agree with the messaging but too many things are posited that I just don't agree with.
dark_inferno
Member
You dont think that it all started with Fish saying "FUCK YOU FANS" right? Or that some guy on the internet said to Fish "Excuse me sir but i think your game isnt that good." and Phil overreacting to that.
I think Fish isnt that guy who just starts being an asshole.
And the Video stated the obvious because if you look at Kamiya Twitter account... you can see that a japanese guy who does the same isnt treated the same because he isnt as famous as Fish.
It's certainly a very very interesting video. Lots of interesting points made.
And yes I do find myself hating Phil Fish, and I'm not even particularly invested in the argument.
"Phil Fish?" - asshole springs to mind
"Jon Blow?" - pretentious springs to mind
I don't know why I feel this way, but yeah.
And yes I do find myself hating Phil Fish, and I'm not even particularly invested in the argument.
"Phil Fish?" - asshole springs to mind
"Jon Blow?" - pretentious springs to mind
I don't know why I feel this way, but yeah.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
And?
Touche then, but I still don't think that deserves the hate it got, more than the millions of hateful comments posted all around the internet.
I believe I can say that Europe kicks USA's ass in football because of reasons x and y and not receive a barrage of hate. Hell, even a coach can say that in a press conference. Sure, it might tick the USA team and fans the wrong way, but the correct response would be to work hard and prove him the fuck wrong.
Yeah, I didn't say it did, and I've never done that personally. I don't even have a twitter account.
About as equally as bashing them I'd say.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
If the video's going to go in-depth about Fish's public persona on the internet and how people react to it, I'd say it'd be a more relevant talking point than bringing up Nickelback.
dark_inferno
Member
People sure like to defend Hardware and Brands.
Preach....
Its very nice that you are willing to at least admit this much.
Shame that you can't.
It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why some people were rubbed the wrong way by Fish and the things he said, where he said them and how he said them. Its humorous to watch people try and huddle around it and defend it refusing to give an inch. Pretending to be shocked that anyone anywhere would take offense to such a stupid far reaching generalization delivered in the most unprofessional manner at an event like GDC.
Ridiculous.
No one reasonable is saying that anyone deserves online bullying, but I absolutely respect anyones choice to dislike the guy based on how poorly he represented himself. Its not in any way shocking that there are a lot of people that want nothing to do with him or products he may be involved with. I very rarely would give so much weight to someone that I would deprive myself of a good game just on the principle of not supporting that person; But Fish and Fez is/was one of those times.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Why? What point would it illustrate?
I have never said that his words weren't thoughtless and insulting, simply that they were not presented as some kind of objective fact.
But it's very telling to me how people extrapolate the rest of my opinions based on a few.
lifeexpectancy
Member
Yes but maybe he hated every single one of those games. I'm just saying that regardless of the situation or the item in discussion, it is categorically false to try and say that someone's OPINION is 'demonstrably untrue'.
Still not true. 'Your games suck' is an assertion, yes, but it's an assertion based on HIS perception and HIS opinion of those games. Also, he's not obligated to act with self restraint just because he's the face of an industry. I can guarantee you if I personally had any amount of success in an industry and people were paying attention to my tweets/posts/whatever, I would still speak as bluntly and callously as ever, because I have that right, as does he.
He has every right to his opinion, whether it's offensive, dismissive of an entire culture, or what have you, because it's HIS opinion, and you cannot apply strict correct/incorrect values to an opinion.
Hell, he could even come out and say he isn't bothered at all by racism and that it's fine. While that statement would be abhorrent to you and me, and probably most people, he would still have every right to voice that opinion, so long as he wasn't going out and committing hate crimes. He probably wouldn't ever hold public office, mind you, but he'd still have the right to say it, just as he has the right to voice his opinion that Japanese games suck.
Now was what he said insensitive? Sure. Inappropriate? Yup. Disrespectful? Of course. But until we have thought police 1984-style, people are going to say insensitive, hurtful things to other people. They'll burn bridges, lose respect with their audience, etc etc, but they certainly have the right to put their foot in their mouth and voice a distasteful opinion.
I do think it's a real shame that discussion about Fez in many places is just dominated by discussion about Phil Fish and how much of an asshole he is. I really liked Fez, but in several places, it's a hard game to discuss. There are many who just dismissed it and a bizarrely popular argument is that it ripped off Super Paper Mario. I'll never get that one.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
The video is partially about how people react to Fish and the concept of internet fandom/infamous-y in general, but also goes into why Fish acts the way he does. I would say a mental disorder that causes erratic mood swings has more relevancy to a video about maintaining public personas than a vague Nickelback comparison (agree with the earlier poster saying this part made way too many assumptions about that band and its fan/hatebase) or the ending point that Fish was a white/straight/cis guy.
Use it as part of a point about how people will ignore certain issues with someone when they want to hate them or something, I don't know, nor do I see why I should be explaining what argument points the creator for a video should've made when I don't agree with most of their points in the first place. I'm just saying that particular aspect would've made a lot more sense to bring up than some of the other reaching stuff they decided to focus on instead.
EDIT:
I've never really seen that argument before, only real thing I've seen people accuse Fez of ripping off is Cave Story since their art styles are superficially similar. Not entirely sure either SPM or Fez is the first game to have a 2D/3D shifting perspective gimmick though, but then neither game's design really hinged solely on that feature either.
dark_inferno
Member
What i dont understand... this is considered Funny :
And when Phil makes a Comment everyone is like "OMG HE SAID SOMETHING BAD".
And when Phil makes a Comment everyone is like "OMG HE SAID SOMETHING BAD".
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
People allow for rudeness if they perceive that person to have talent and a back catalogue.
People formed their opinions on Phil before he had even released a game.
I've not played Fez just to say.
People formed their opinions on Phil before he had even released a game.
I've not played Fez just to say.
dark_inferno
Member
He released 2 games befor making FEZ. Source: Watch the Video from OP.
Griddlelol
Banned
General assertions based on his opinion. I think Mexican food fucking sucks. I think that my country kicks their ass in terms of food quality and taste. If I say burritos taste like dick, that's a subjective "general assertion."
BumblebeeCody
Member
It's funny because this is the exact thinking I've had. I've never cared for his personal tweets and shit or why some random person on forum thinks their opinion is even worth anything of [insert subject name here]. I've never bothered to join in discussions or chat which are generally for bashing someone.
I enjoyed FEZ and that's all that matters. Separate the creator from the creation.
I enjoyed FEZ and that's all that matters. Separate the creator from the creation.
It's a good video and I agree with the premise that we are part of the problem. That said I do not agree with the notion that Phil didn't ask to be famous, because he very much reveled in proving every single naysayer wrong. Didn't he once tweet that he wanted to become an important figurehead of gaming or some sort?
As much of an asshole as Marcus Beer was there is a level of truth in his statements - whether he asked for the fame or not, you can't say you don't see this kind of backlash coming when you act the way you do. You kind of have to think twice about what you say in public light because in the end, people are people, and they will judge you for the things you say. That really doesn't have a lot to do with whether or not you're just "living a normal life". You can very much live a normal life and still have a respectable PR face. Phil made us part of that normal life, and usually in normal life, people will call you out on stupid things you do. Usually it's also normal to forgive and forget, but that's not really something we, or Fish have been wanting to reciprocate, so it's a self-perpetuating cycle.
Personally I'm indifferent about him at this point. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that I don't really care for his game either. It was too confusing for my tastes.
The key difference is that Kamiya doesn't really care whether you play his games, or whether they sell, or whether you have some agenda. He doesn't condone the memes made out of him and he doesn't feed on his persona for notoriety. The most important thing for him is making games, and he doesn't waver in the wake of backlash. Hell when he got the negative press from Kotaku about his lack of knowledge in PC games his response to that was mostly a grumbled indifference despite it making him look bad. He wasn't happy about it but one sentence was all he needed to shut down the conversation.
As much of an asshole as Marcus Beer was there is a level of truth in his statements - whether he asked for the fame or not, you can't say you don't see this kind of backlash coming when you act the way you do. You kind of have to think twice about what you say in public light because in the end, people are people, and they will judge you for the things you say. That really doesn't have a lot to do with whether or not you're just "living a normal life". You can very much live a normal life and still have a respectable PR face. Phil made us part of that normal life, and usually in normal life, people will call you out on stupid things you do. Usually it's also normal to forgive and forget, but that's not really something we, or Fish have been wanting to reciprocate, so it's a self-perpetuating cycle.
Personally I'm indifferent about him at this point. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that I don't really care for his game either. It was too confusing for my tastes.
The key difference is that Kamiya doesn't really care whether you play his games, or whether they sell, or whether you have some agenda. He doesn't condone the memes made out of him and he doesn't feed on his persona for notoriety. The most important thing for him is making games, and he doesn't waver in the wake of backlash. Hell when he got the negative press from Kotaku about his lack of knowledge in PC games his response to that was mostly a grumbled indifference despite it making him look bad. He wasn't happy about it but one sentence was all he needed to shut down the conversation.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
God... It's almost like this person read my mind and took everything I have ever thought about him and made it into a video. I will never forget that Marcus beer issue. I defended his ass for the same reason of this video. I'm to lazy to find my post but everything that was said in this video is exactly everything I said about him. So glad to know that somewhere out there, someone at least knew exactly what he was and why he at the end of the day is human.
Delusibeta
Banned
Like Adam Orth, Phil Fish seems to have become immortalised in the gaming media as an example of "this is why the internet is bad, this innocent man got chased out of the industry" when in reality they were both tremendous assholes and deserved their rep. After all, if the phrase most commonly associated with you is "suck my dick, choke on it", you've probably fucked up your PR badly.
Neon_Icarus
Member
You have every right to be as rude and disrespectful as you want, but then you need to either apologise (and not in the 'I'm sorry you got offended' way) or be prepared for people reacting to you with equal disrespect.
He certainly has every right to voice his opinions in any way he sees fit, but so do we.
Gintoki313
Banned
Tried to watch the video, but I dislike how he goes in circles with his explanations. Also, don't know who Phil Fish is. Like his name though.
EDIT: After reading up on him (not understanding 50% of what I was reading), is insulting people the only thing he did wrong? There better be more to this. I've seen Kamiya insult people a lot, yet folks worships him when he does it.
EDIT: After reading up on him (not understanding 50% of what I was reading), is insulting people the only thing he did wrong? There better be more to this. I've seen Kamiya insult people a lot, yet folks worships him when he does it.
I don't know why he goes by Phil Fish when his real name is so much fucking cooler
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I don't think this guy has access to medical records or could make any qualifiable statements on what was or wasn't an example/result of bipolar behavior and thought. Nickelback worked as a familiar analogue for how the public can acquiesce to fame.
...but yeah, that's true. It's a fair thought that he could have equated Phil Fish's diagnosis reveal as something that can solicit even more hate or psychophobia, the same way that being an ethnic minority, LGBT, or female can. It's kinda meta that the video ends up unintentionally invalidating him in that way.
Discotheque
Banned
good video.
also "suck my dick, choke on it" is one of the greatest things any game developer has ever said. hahahahhaa. i always laugh when that's cited.
also "suck my dick, choke on it" is one of the greatest things any game developer has ever said. hahahahhaa. i always laugh when that's cited.
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