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This is the date Bernie Sanders Berns Out (March 15?)

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Realistically I think a lot of Sanders supporters will stay home and not vote at all if the choices are Clinton or Trump.

People want real...actual change for the better, and I know I don't feel like either of them will bring that. A nut or a fraud, take your pick! That doesn't get people excited to vote.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Sanders is getting enough people excited either.

Then those people aren't clear on how that change would actually occur, and should try a bit harder to understand what it actually takes to enact that kind of change.

The President isn't a dictator. A Republican being President while keeping a majority in Congress basically crushes even their most desperate bare minimum of what they would barely recognize as 'progress'.

Clinton is a Bernie supporter's best chance at change. Focus more on supporting Democrats.
 

danm999

Member
I can understand, though not necessarily agree, with people saying they won't vote for Clinton if Sanders doesn't get the nomination.

But the people saying they'll simply not vote at all in down ticket races, or vote for the GOP truly puzzle me. Feels like just giving up on the progressive political revolution altogether just because you hit an obstacle.

Yeah you might not get a Bernie Sanders in 2016, but at this rate simply disengaging from local and state politics means you may never get one.
 

Kettch

Member
All this is relative nonsense. Voter turn out is down. Sanders hasn't brought in new voters. There is no revolution.

This line doesn't make much sense to me. I don't know if Sanders is bringing in new voters, but it's perfectly possible that he is, and that turnout would be even lower if someone else were in his position.
 
I can understand, though not necessarily agree, with people saying they won't vote for Clinton if Sanders doesn't get the nomination.

But the people saying they'll simply not vote at all in down ticket races, or vote for the GOP truly puzzle me. Feels like just giving up on the progressive political revolution altogether just because you hit an obstacle.

Yeah you might not get a Bernie Sanders in 2016, but at this rate simply disengaging from local and state politics means you may never get one.
Anyone saying that never gave a damn about making a change in the first place. They just hopped on the revolution bandwagon because all their friends were.
 

Kyosaiga

Banned
lol revolution. The last time this country had a revolution was in 1964.

For Bernie to consider his campaign in the same league is insulting.
 

danm999

Member
This line doesn't make much sense to me. I don't know if Sanders is bringing in new voters, but it's perfectly possible that he is, and that turnout would be even lower if someone else were in his position.

That's true, but largely irrelevant to the context of what the political revolution is supposed to achieve; change the face of Congress so progressive policies can be enacted.
 
I can understand, though not necessarily agree, with people saying they won't vote for Clinton if Sanders doesn't get the nomination.

But the people saying they'll simply not vote at all in down ticket races, or vote for the GOP truly puzzle me. Feels like just giving up on the progressive political revolution altogether just because you hit an obstacle.

Yeah you might not get a Bernie Sanders in 2016, but at this rate simply disengaging from local and state politics means you may never get one.

100% agreed. I won't vote for Hillary if Bernie loses, but I will still vote. My local and state politics are important to me and I will continue my activism in organizations as a means to help fix our political corruption where I live.
 
Isn't her whole platform lately that she'd be the same as an Obama third term?

Who if you didn't notice, introduced programs key to the development of progressive values in the US. It'd fall on the next Pres to protect those programs for another term - which is what Clinton has sworn to do. Combine that with electing liberal Supreme Court justices, and the path to change is perfectly visible.
 

q_q

Member
I think you're a bit mistaken.

Super PAC money can't be used in official campaigns. Regarding the so-called "piles of money" the Hillary campaign is built on, the Bernie campaign is built on the same kind of "piles of money". You probably caught the fundraising numbers that in January Bernie's campaign outraised the Hillary campaign (albeit Hillary's campaign raised an additional chunk for downticket races). So he has his piles of money too.

Bernie did out-raise Hillary, but of course what you conveniently left out was that his money mostly comes from small donors while her's come from wealthy ones. Also, the fact that he has piles of money is not going against his rhetoric somehow, it's who gives you the money that matters.

The difference here is not that Hillary has more money. It's that her campaign is more organized, disciplined, and simply better than Bernie's. You can laugh at the social media gaffes or lash out about Hillary Clinton the candidate, but her campaign was strategizing for Super Tuesday very early on. The Bernie campaign poured lots of money into Nevada and South Carolina with very little to show for it, whereas Hillary's campaign planned for the possibility of a long primary fight. They didn't spend as much as Bernie in Nevada for ad buys, and by the end of South Carolina he probably would have spent more money than Hillary for these two months, but she would have won 3 out of 4 states.

If you want an idea of how the Bernie campaign is sort of flaky, you can see for yourself how ad spending looks in the Super Tuesday states.

I'll agree with you there, Bernie's campaign has not been nearly as well run as Hillary's. I chalk it up to his inexperience as a national candidate more than a problem with his message though.

Also note that his campaign is targeting those states because they're largely white.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/how-bernie-sanders-hopes-get-his-goove-back?cid=sm_tw_msnbc

His campaign has conceded the minority vote. They're not even bothering to fight for the minority vote, even though you need that vote to win the Dem primary. Hell, you need the minority vote to win the general election as a Dem.

This simply isn't true. He has been actively campaigning on civil rights issues since the BLM fiasco. He also may have won the Latino vote in Nevada by some estimates. He hasn't written minorities off at all, you just wish he did so you can criticize him on it.

The so-called grassroots effort is probably stronger on Hillary's side, given that she has a lot of 2008 veterans from both her campaign and Obama's. You can pull a Nirolak and check the campaign job pages to get an idea of what the campaigns are doing: the Hillary camp was hiring data analysts and field organizers already back when the Bernie camp was still looking into directors for Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada. Before the Bernie camp got a rude wake up call, Hillary already hired a diverse staff, particularly a Latina outreach director who started building relationships with locals way before the Nevada caucuses.

The funny thing about superPAC money, it can't build you a ground game. So if here is merit to strong organization and grassroots for Hillary, it would be to her campaign staff and not to her superPAC.

You're ignoring intangibles. All the Democratic elites and major donors have been campaigning against Sanders as soon as he started to creep up on Hillary's lead. This is the power of moneyed interests, they provide a massive amount of leverage and influence to a candidate before they even begin to look at how they will run their campaign. Sanders, his own blunders aside, has been fighting an uphill battle the entire time. Yet you're acting like this was his election to lose. You're boasting of Hillary's campaign as if it is something to be proud of, when, in reality, it's just a display of the power of money in politics.

And it's not that she's some evil dictator, she's just playing by the rules of a corrupt game. I'll certainly support her in the general when she's the candidate, but I'll vote against corrupt influence in politics if I have the chance, which I do with Sanders.

If Bernie's excitement was actually like that of Obama's, he would be winning. But he isn't. Your feelings about how things are...are just that, feelings. It doesn't match up with the results or reality. If people weren't excited to be voting for Hillary Clinton, she wouldn't be winning against the supposedly fantastically exuberant Bernie supporters.

You're the one coming with feelings now. Based upon the logic you just put forth, no candidate would ever win unless he inspired his voters. You're putting forth a laughably naive and simple view of politics, all just to get in an attack on Bernie and his supporters. Makes me question your objectivity.

Speaking personally, I think you're wrong to assume that the people who want change support Bernie, and the people who hope not much changes support Hillary. The people who supported Obama in 2008 and followed Obama's presidency for 7 years now know and understand the gears of the process and how to get change more effectively than those who are still simply searching for a singular hero to upend the system. Becoming president isn't a magic wand; having Obama in the seat did not banish racism and all the ills of the world. The people who are willing to grind and endure are no less wishful for change than those who want to break the shackles immediately. They're simply smarter about it.
And here we are with more feelings. You are wrong to assume that most people are supporting Bernie because they think a magical savior will come into office and wish all our problems away. Speaking for myself and other Sanders' supporters I know personally, we support him because we know he is the only candidate who is not influenced by a corrupt campaign finance system and is the only candidate who wants to honestly address income inequality and corruption in politics. These are not fringe concerns about the Illuminati running everything from behind the scenes or some nonsense like that. It is an honest assessment of our political system. And it's important because it undermines progress on important issues like climate change, gun control, healthcare, etc. You can talk about "incremental change" all you want, but you'll only ever get the progress that lobbyists and corporations allow you to have. That's simply not the way it's supposed to be.

For whatever reason, you support Hillary. And I think there are very many legitimate reasons to do so. But this post has been near cringe-inducing for all the emotional bias and obvious attempts at self-satisfying insults. The shame is you're just alienating people who mostly agree with you because you just can't seem to bring yourself to respect opinions that offend your sensibilities. I hope you change your approach in the future.
 

Effect

Member
He's still a Senator and he's been pretty vocal about his ideals for a long time now.

A Presidential run gives him a bigger platform, but I don't think he's done regardless of the primary outcomes.

It's also a question of what does he do with his party affiliation (does he keep the D until the election is over or does he go right back to being an I as soon as possible) and if he cares about electing democratic members to the Congress. The people that would actually be helpful in pushing his ideas. As it stands now he's never given the impression he cares at all about the rest of the ballot on election day. I'm curious if that keeps up.
 

q_q

Member
That's what it seems to have become, but traditionally someone who has been a politician for over 30 years and is running in the democrat party would have been labeled as establishment.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean much. Look up what "socialism" has traditionally meant to the American public and I think we can agree to throw that out as a reliable means of determining how to use certain words.
 
It's also a question of what does he do with his party affiliation (does he keep the D until the election is over or does he go right back to being an I as soon as possible) and if he cares about electing democratic members to the Congress. The people that would actually be helpful in pushing his ideas. As it stands now he's never given the impression he cares at all about down the rest of the ballot on election day. I'm curious if that keeps up.

He's explicitly refused to raise any money for down ticket Dems due to some principle of his
His staff believes his persona alone is suffice to get down ticketers elected.

It'd be hilarious if it wasn't sad
 

q_q

Member
You're going to have to explain how being wary of fantasies equates to not voting.

You're basically saying, "a politician fooled me once, but never again!" And so I say again, why vote for any candidate ever? I also have to ask, if you were following politics for such a long time and still drank the Obama kool aid, why should we take your opinion seriously now?
 

digdug2k

Member
After all, they claimed to be against Citizens united back in 2010 but it seems like now the argument has shifted to Clinton basically saying that money doesn't influence her just because she's Clinton and not only that, but money doesn't influence anyone, ever. Which i think its just a preposterous claim to make.
When did Clinton say that money doesn't influence anyone ever?

AFAIK, she's basically just said, "I'm not some new kid outta nowhere. I've got a 25 year voting record for you to look at to see if money has influenced my votes". She does. Lots of people have looked at it. None of them have found any time it has that I know of.
 

dramatis

Member
Very little to show? He did pretty well for a old socialist grandpa who appeared for most people from the void against establishment backed Hillary Clinton, former first lady, secretary of state and what not. The Clintons are multimillionaires with contacts and connections, Bernie Sanders personal wealth is a bit above half a million. And yet he is awfully close. Look at the numbers from a few months ago. You can't dismiss how much he clawed up from the bottom of the ocean to seeing the light.
In the context of the race, Bernie didn't get the wins he needed to become actually competitive. So the 'what about Hillary this' isn't an actual argument for Bernie's "accomplishments". You're asking for a star of participation; the answer is that he didn't win Nevada. That star of participation doesn't mean squat for winning the nomination.

Putting that aside, you say the Clintons are multimillionaires with contacts and connections, and therefore it's all the more incredible that Bernie could compete, but that of course fails to recognize the efforts of Hillary herself. She was not born a multimillionaire; she was not born with a network. The money is something she worked for and earned; the contacts and connections are also the product of years of labor and cultivation. The establishment support? It didn't simply rally behind her, she worked to secure it before this campaign, to avoid the mistake of her last one. If you want to whine about how Hillary had everything, you might want to consider that in another perspective, one could say Hillary worked hard for everything she has now, whereas Bernie is running his campaign on the charity of the unemployed and retired. (And there's no question that his campaign staff is taking these people for a ride, considering how they're planning the strategy.)
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
And here we are with more feelings. You are wrong to assume that most people are supporting Bernie because they think a magical savior will come into office and wish all our problems away. Speaking for myself and other Sanders' supporters I know personally, we support him because we know he is the only candidate who is not influenced by a corrupt campaign finance system and is the only candidate who wants to honestly address income inequality and corruption in politics. These are not fringe concerns about the Illuminati running everything from behind the scenes or some nonsense like that. It is an honest assessment of our political system. And it's important because it undermines progress on important issues like climate change, gun control, healthcare, etc. You can talk about "incremental change" all you want, but you'll only ever get the progress that lobbyists and corporations allow you to have. That's simply not the way it's supposed to be.

For whatever reason, you support Hillary. And I think there are very many legitimate reasons to do so. But this post has been near cringe-inducing for all the emotional bias and obvious attempts at self-satisfying insults. The shame is you're just alienating people who mostly agree with you because you just can't seem to bring yourself to respect opinions that offend your sensibilities. I hope you change your approach in the future.
Bernie clearly feels that he needs to blatantly promise incredibly lofty goals. Why do you think this is? What strategically is he thinking when he says he's going to implement publicly financed higher education across the country?
 

Mecha

Member
Is anyone making a thread for the democratic town hall?

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean much. Look up what "socialism" has traditionally meant to the American public and I think we can agree to throw that out as a reliable means of determining how to use certain words.

A lot of people didn't know what socialism meant back then, and a lot still don't. The image of socialism has shifted from totalitarian state socialism to the Nordic countries. I don't think we should start using the word socialism to express things that aren't socialist because that's what most people are currently calling it, same could be said for establishment.
 
Isn't her whole platform lately that she'd be the same as an Obama third term?

That generalization that doesn't mean much.

It's short sighted to hand wave generalizations while claiming to be agents of change. People who actually have a healthy perspective of enacting change politically don't hitch their wagons to a particular Presidential candidate and throw their hands up in the air when it doesn't go their way.

Here's a few scenarios:

1) Sanders supporters, disgusted with their party's candidate, all stay home and allow the Republicans to win the WH and ride it down ticket, maintaining a majority in the Senate while remaining in good shape for the midterms. What change is coming in this scenario, and how far off would that be now?

2) Sanders supporters work to ensure that Clinton wins, and help down ticket. The writing might even be on the wall for the Republican majority in Congress for the midterms. Hand wave 'Obama 3rd term' all you want, but consider the difference in the potential for progress here versus scenario 1.

If a Bernie supporter really cares about change, there's not a lot of brainpower required here to put it in perspective.

The Presidency is not about voting for your ideal candidate, it's about what you can live with and what you can't live with.
 

border

Member
The Daily Beast is owned by media mega-company IAC.

Chelsea Clinton is on the Board of Directors at IAC.

Make of that what you will, but there has been a consistent bias against Bernie in the media, mostly ignoring him during the first part of the campaign, and then painting him as someone who has little to no chance.

Not cheerleading is one thing. Writing a thinly-veiled hit piece is quite another. But of course, this is the new journalism.

It's almost as if this article's author could anticipate your response:

"One of the more vexing things about this election year is the open hostility to basic election math"

Instead of implying some vast media-driven anti-Bernie conspiracy, you'd do far better to make a case for any kind of reasonable path to victory for Sanders. It just doesn't seem to be there at the moment, if you are going to give any kind of credence to polls. Almost all the naysaying responses to this piece seem to revolve around the blind hope that all the polls are wrong, or that Sanders can somehow turn things around in a half dozen states in less than a couple weeks.

People always seem to forget that it is largely in the press's best interests to portray any race as a close one, not to crush one candidate beyond repair. Sanders won in New Hampshire and there was plenty of hoopla about the revolution happening in the party even though his prospects in most other states were just as dismal then as they are today.
 

q_q

Member
Bernie clearly feels that he needs to blatantly promise incredibly lofty goals. Why do you think this is? What strategically is he thinking when he says he's going to implement publicly financed higher education across the country?
Already said he's made some campaign blunders. Making a huge deal out of this issue was one of them since he obviously won't be able to do much during his own term. It feeds into the "pie in the sky" talking point very well. In my opinion, however, he's doing this to demarcate himself from the pro-corporatist status quo. And the idea itself is not radical or unfeasible. It will be the norm eventually. I also don't see the connection between that and the part of my post you quoted.

A lot of people didn't know what socialism meant back then, and a lot still don't. The image of socialism has shifted from totalitarian state socialism to the Nordic countries. I don't think we should start using the word socialism to express things that aren't socialist because that's what most people are currently calling it, same could be said for establishment.

I agree with your point, but I think establishment has always referred to an exclusive group who is in power through some means other than merit or legitimacy. It's only come to specifically refer to money in politics now because that's such a huge issue for our country.
 

q_q

Member
In the context of the race, Bernie didn't get the wins he needed to become actually competitive. So the 'what about Hillary this' isn't an actual argument for Bernie's "accomplishments". You're asking for a star of participation; the answer is that he didn't win Nevada. That star of participation doesn't mean squat for winning the nomination.

Putting that aside, you say the Clintons are multimillionaires with contacts and connections, and therefore it's all the more incredible that Bernie could compete, but that of course fails to recognize the efforts of Hillary herself. She was not born a multimillionaire; she was not born with a network. The money is something she worked for and earned; the contacts and connections are also the product of years of labor and cultivation. The establishment support? It didn't simply rally behind her, she worked to secure it before this campaign, to avoid the mistake of her last one. If you want to whine about how Hillary had everything, you might want to consider that in another perspective, one could say Hillary worked hard for everything she has now, whereas Bernie is running his campaign on the charity of the unemployed and retired. (And there's no question that his campaign staff is taking these people for a ride, considering how they're planning the strategy.)

Ahaha. Charity and bootstraps? What are you, a Republican?
 
Has someone made a Bernie Sanders bingo pic yet? Cause I feel that we've hit all the usual BS talking points:

-Conspiracy!

-Nobody likes Clinton

-Bernie can force through his campaign promises to a GoP-controlled congress, but Clinton can't!

-Conspiracy

-If Clinton wins I'm staying home/Voting for Trump

-Polls aren't trustworthy

-Conspiracy!

-Trump will crush Hilary in the GE, he's a better speaker!

-All the news articles are owned by someone's cousin's stepmother who once said "hi" to Clinton, so they can't be trusted and are biased

-CONSPIRACY!
 

dramatis

Member
Bernie did out-raise Hillary, but of course what you conveniently left out was that his money mostly comes from small donors while her's come from wealthy ones. Also, the fact that he has piles of money is not going against his rhetoric somehow, it's who gives you the money that matters.
Doesn't matter. Donations to official campaigns are capped at $2700, rich or poor. Ground game is performed by the official campaign, not by super PAC. Distinguishing the source of the wealth doesn't change the fact that both official campaigns are "built on piles of money", and also doesn't change the fact that Hillary's campaign is superior not because of money, but because of organization. You said so yourself.
I'll agree with you there, Bernie's campaign has not been nearly as well run as Hillary's. I chalk it up to his inexperience as a national candidate more than a problem with his message though.
I don't agree that Bernie's campaign is not as well run because of his inexperience as a national candidate, but rather because his choice of staff is poor. Jeff Weaver and Tad Devine were too overconfident and didn't have a contingent strategy in case of a Nevada loss. I think they're also selling to Bernie lies about the man's chances, if Bernie is really determined to run this until June.
This simply isn't true. He has been actively campaigning on civil rights issues since the BLM fiasco. He also may have won the Latino vote in Nevada by some estimates. He hasn't written minorities off at all, you just wish he did so you can criticize him on it.
According to his campaign's ad buys for Super Tuesday, Bernie's campaign has essentially given up on the southern states. I gave you all the evidence right there that his campaign has essentially given up on the minority vote, and is targeting heavily white states.

It's not a matter of whether he has been actively campaigning on civil rights issues. It's looking at what his campaign is doing to prep for future contests and analyzing such actions. Bernie can continue to campaign on those issues, but the actions of his campaign indicate their focus on winning states that don't have as many minorities. That's their apparent strategy.
You're ignoring intangibles. All the Democratic elites and major donors have been campaigning against Sanders as soon as he started to creep up on Hillary's lead. This is the power of moneyed interests, they provide a massive amount of leverage and influence to a candidate before they even begin to look at how they will run their campaign. Sanders, his own blunders aside, has been fighting an uphill battle the entire time. Yet you're acting like this was his election to lose. You're boasting of Hillary's campaign as if it is something to be proud of, when, in reality, it's just a display of the power of money in politics.

And it's not that she's some evil dictator, she's just playing by the rules of a corrupt game. I'll certainly support her in the general when she's the candidate, but I'll vote against corrupt influence in politics if I have the chance, which I do with Sanders.
When it comes to the vote, ground game is king.

People would like to blame moneyed interests, 'establishment', media, everything except themselves. But for all of that, her campaign just plain had a better grasp of the game and the ground than Bernie's campaign did. Hillary did more prep work. What you're seeing come home to roost is the effort of years. It cannot be so easily distilled into 'Democratic elites and major donors' (btw, major donors don't campaign, so I don't know where you get the idea that major donors have been campaigning against Bernie). It's like you're dismissing the vote of the people when it's on Hillary's side, but if it's on Bernie's side then it's the "real" voice of the people.

You're the one coming with feelings now. Based upon the logic you just put forth, no candidate would ever win unless he inspired his voters. You're putting forth a laughably naive and simple view of politics, all just to get in an attack on Bernie and his supporters. Makes me question your objectivity.
The last part was certainly intended to be feelings based. I am responding to a poster who specifically talked about his feelings, so in return I can tell him what he feels is incorrect. It was broad to make the assumption that people who support Hillary "don't really want things to change". My answer is, with experience, those who support Hillary understand how to better navigate the system for changes, and believe she can do better than Bernie at that.

And here we are with more feelings. You are wrong to assume that most people are supporting Bernie because they think a magical savior will come into office and wish all our problems away. Speaking for myself and other Sanders' supporters I know personally, we support him because we know he is the only candidate who is not influenced by a corrupt campaign finance system and is the only candidate who wants to honestly address income inequality and corruption in politics. These are not fringe concerns about the Illuminati running everything from behind the scenes or some nonsense like that. It is an honest assessment of our political system. And it's important because it undermines progress on important issues like climate change, gun control, healthcare, etc. You can talk about "incremental change" all you want, but you'll only ever get the progress that lobbyists and corporations allow you to have. That's simply not the way it's supposed to be.

For whatever reason, you support Hillary. And I think there are very many legitimate reasons to do so. But this post has been near cringe-inducing for all the emotional bias and obvious attempts at self-satisfying insults. The shame is you're just alienating people who mostly agree with you because you just can't seem to bring yourself to respect opinions that offend your sensibilities. I hope you change your approach in the future.
Incremental progress is better than nothing. Staying principled gets nothing done; this is no better exemplified than by the Tea Party. If you want to stand alongside them and protest your morals and principles, feel free to do so. You can talk about your personal preferences all you want, but you won't change anything. Those who drag the cart of complainers will continue to drag the cart of the complainers. They bear the burden.

My belief is that each person paves the road for the person behind to continue. I do not believe that lobbyists and corporations complete and utter control over the progress we are 'allowed'; if that were the case we could not have the progress we have today, since a divide of wealth has and will always exist. Were there not times like this in the past, where Teddy Roosevelt had to go trust busting? Did Lyndon Johnson not have to stand up and bully Congress into passing civil rights? Did Obama not try his hardest for the country, despite being 'paid for'? The connections of people, companies, government, and society are more complex than we can boil down to simple oligarchy. Humans are simultaneously predictable and unpredictable. I do not fear we have no voice even in the face of entities much greater than ourselves; if you want to know how it really feels, I suggest you move to China.

My post illustrated the deficiencies of the Bernie campaign and laid out the problems with his campaign's Super Tuesday strategy. If you feel that it is unfair, it's probably because you are standing on Bernie's side with a bias. An analyst looking at the spending and the poll numbers can tell you the same that I did. It's hardly filled with self-satisfying insults, other than the final part giving an assessment of Bernie supporters. Ironically this is what you say, but then you engage in subtle insults yourself, so who needs to change his approach? I wrote with respect to that guy's opinion and told him he is wrong. I could have written some highly charged insults, but I didn't. If this civil tone is considered 'insulting', then you are too thin-skinned.

Ahaha. Charity and bootstraps? What are you, a Republican?
I did say from a certain viewpoint you can see it that way, no? But here's my question for you: do you have an actual argument against what I said about Hillary's investment and hard work being so summarily dismissed?
 

Damaniel

Banned
You're the one coming with feelings now. Based upon the logic you just put forth, no candidate would ever win unless he inspired his voters. You're putting forth a laughably naive and simple view of politics, all just to get in an attack on Bernie and his supporters. Makes me question your objectivity..

Obviously he's not inspiring voters enough to come out and vote for him, otherwise he'd be winning. Most of us don't want revolution, and certainly not the half-baked steaming pile of BS that he's trying to sell us.

I've said it over and over, 'vocal' is not synonymous with 'enthusiasm' - they're related, but you can have one without the other. Hillary supporters don't feel the need to Tweet meme images and upvote 'rah rah rah' posts on Reddit, but we show up on election day, and that's the only metric that matters.

I'd really like to see social democracy come to America, and sooner rather than later. Bernie is absolutely *not* the one who can, or should, bring it to us.

Has someone made a Bernie Sanders bingo pic yet? Cause I feel that we've hit all the usual BS talking points:

-Conspiracy!

-Nobody likes Clinton

-Bernie can force through his campaign promises to a GoP-controlled congress, but Clinton can't!

-Conspiracy

-If Clinton wins I'm staying home/Voting for Trump

-Polls aren't trustworthy

-Conspiracy!

-Trump will crush Hilary in the GE, he's a better speaker!

-All the news articles are owned by someone's cousin's stepmother who once said "hi" to Clinton, so they can't be trusted and are biased

-CONSPIRACY!

We should just make 'Conspiracy!' the center square, since it comes up so often with them.
 
If Sanders gets wrecked on Super Tuesday its a done deal. As the perception of him not winning will grow. The momentum will continue in Clinton direction after a mega super tuesday win.
 
You're basically saying, "a politician fooled me once, but never again!" And so I say again, why vote for any candidate ever? I also have to ask, if you were following politics for such a long time and still drank the Obama kool aid, why should we take your opinion seriously now?

Because I have since seen Obama. I have seen Rudd in Australia. I have seen Anwar and his coalition in Malaysia. Time after time, politicians have risen, promised the world and then reality comes crashing down on them.

Good feelings are nice. But give me someone with a workable plan. Not one who promises 5% growth in gdp year on year, and who is somehow both a political outsider who insists he'll have more clout than even the most entrenched insider.

Idealism is easy. Pragmatism is where the real work begins.
 
It's almost as if this article's author could anticipate your response:

"One of the more vexing things about this election year is the open hostility to basic election math"

Instead of implying some vast media-driven anti-Bernie conspiracy, you'd do far better to make a case for any kind of reasonable path to victory for Sanders. It just doesn't seem to be there at the moment, if you are going to give any kind of credence to polls. Almost all the naysaying responses to this piece seem to revolve around the blind hope that all the polls are wrong, or that Sanders can somehow turn things around in a half dozen states in less than a couple weeks.

Thanks for cherry-picking my comments. Here's what I also said:
Me saying it's a hit piece is not about the math, it's about the tone of the article. Even the article's title is obnoxious in its bias, as if they have come back in a time machine and told us hard facts. That's how you create a narrative that people start believing, a belief that Bernie has no chance so you might as well vote for Hillary.

And I didn't imply there's a "vast media conspiracy", but Chelsea being on the Board of Directors of the parent corp to Daily Beast is a bit suspicious when she's actively involved in Hillary's campaign. The site should at least call this out in the article. But regardless of any suspicion on this front, when a news outlet publishes a piece that more or less says, "Turn out the lights, the party's over for Bernie" when the votes haven't even been taken is irresponsible journalism unless it's labeled as an editorial. Journalism 101: report the facts, and sure report on polls if you want, but don't let the writing take on the voice of an opinion. And avoid making narrative leaps when polls more than a week out are just rough barometers of the moment.
 

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But regardless of any suspicion on this front, when a news outlet publishes a piece that more or less says, "Turn out the lights, the party's over for Bernie" when the votes haven't even been taken is irresponsible journalism unless it's labeled as an editorial. Journalism 101: report the facts, and sure report on polls if you want, but don't let the writing take on the voice of an opinion. And avoid making narrative leaps when polls more than a week out are just rough barometers of the moment.

Isn't it kind of self-evident that this is an editorial or opinion piece, given that it's essentially trying to predict the future? Do you need to label something as an editorial when the headline is flagrantly editorializing and speculating? Would "Why the Warcraft movie will bomb" or "This is how the Yankees are going to win the World Series" articles need to be labelled as editorial? I don't see how you could even get past the headline without realizing that this is someone's opinion rather than pure, unadulterated fact.

You can point out that Chelsea Clinton is somewhere 5 levels up in this website's corporate heirarchy, but it's not as if there aren't a dozen other websites pointing out the uphill battle that Sanders faces on Super Tuesday and beyond.

Do you really need polls to be conducted less than a week before elections to consider them reliable? I mean when it's close you could arguably call them a "rough barometer", but when one candidate is leading by 20-30 points with under a month to go I think it's maybe time that you can start making some assumptions about how the voting is going to go.
 
Thanks for cherry-picking my comments. Here's what I also said:


And I didn't imply there's a "vast media conspiracy", but Chelsea being on the Board of Directors of the parent corp to Daily Beast is a bit suspicious when she's actively involved in Hillary's campaign. The site should at least call this out in the article. But regardless of any suspicion on this front, when a news outlet publishes a piece that more or less says, "Turn out the lights, the party's over for Bernie" when the votes haven't even been taken is irresponsible journalism unless it's labeled as an editorial. Journalism 101: report the facts, and sure report on polls if you want, but don't let the writing take on the voice of an opinion. And avoid making narrative leaps when polls more than a week out are just rough barometers of the moment.

Having contributed articles to a professional magazine in the past, I'd be doubtful that the author was aware of any of of the board of directors of their parent company. I certainly had no idea who the hell was even the parent company of my mag, let alone who sat on the board.
 

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Am I crazy for thinking it is a worrying sign that he doesn't seem to care about the black demo"?

I think Bernie definitely cares about black voters really deeply (as shown by his BLM pivot and very active effort to incorporate racial justice into his platform), but he knows that he probably can't win a majority of that demographic.

So he wants to spend his blood and treasure on states he believes he can win more easily.
 
Isn't it kind of self-evident that this is an editorial or opinion piece, given that it's essentially trying to predict the future? Do you need to label something as an editorial when the headline is flagrantly editorializing and speculating? Would "Why the Warcraft movie will bomb" or "This is how the Yankees are going to win the World Series" articles need to be labelled as editorial? I don't see how you could even get past the headline without realizing that this is someone's opinion rather than pure, unadulterated fact.

You can point out that Chelsea Clinton is somewhere 5 levels up in this website's corporate heirarchy, but it's not as if there aren't a dozen other websites pointing out the uphill battle that Sanders faces on Super Tuesday and beyond.

To keep it short, no I don't think it's always self-evident to readers whether something is an editorial when it contains facts and figures and has a more serious tone. Editorials should always be labeled as such. Corporate associations with your subject matter should always be called out. These used to be basic standards of journalism, and the standards are there for a reason, but this is New Journalism and they want to play fast and loose. I think for something like a national election, that is damaging to the political process.

Stories about uphill battles, that's fine. That's a reasonable extrapolation of the facts. But there's a big difference in tone and reasonable conclusion between "uphill battle" and "it's over". One says, "he has a hard road" and the other says "don't bother". The former is a fair interpretation of facts as a journalist, weaving a narrative as it unfolds. The latter weaves a narrative that the future is already set, which inserts the journalist into the news cycle itself.
 
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