PepsimanVsJoe said:I play games not only for fun but for an understanding of game design.
I think gameplay structure has the potential to be art. The vast majority of it is not, but some of it is reaching in that direction.
PepsimanVsJoe said:I play games not only for fun but for an understanding of game design.
TwinIonEngines said:I think gameplay structure has the potential to be art. The vast majority of it is not, but some of it is reaching in that direction.
TwinIonEngines said:I think gameplay structure has the potential to be art. The vast majority of it is not, but some of it is reaching in that direction.
PepsimanVsJoe said:I think this way too actually. Unfortunately it's not something many people will grasp. I think it needs to be understood though to make truly incredible games.
Deku said:If it can then it probably becomes a manufactured process. You can't truly understand or capture how great art is created.
FoxSpirit said:Pffft, imho, what has REALLY set us back is that not enough people have HD TVs. Which means to fully enjoy your new console, pack in 800 more Euros... that would be one FAT Christmas present.
On the other hand, if a lot of people had HD TVs but no HD console, they'd soon want one to fully enjoy your TV. Simply a smart move by Nintendo to wait.
Low price= many a parents favourite console.
mepaco said:I still would really love to see some data that shows that percentage of HD TV owners that don't use them with any HD signals. I think a lot of people like the fact that they are flat, widescreen, and even their old DVDs can look a good bit better. Not saying they can't recognize or don't care about the increased resolution, but I have a feeling that the other features are more important to a lot of consumers.
Safe Bet said:Better Tools ~ Better Art
FoxSpirit said:Pffft, imho, what has REALLY set us back is that not enough people have HD TVs. Which means to fully enjoy your new console, pack in 800 more Euros... that would be one FAT Christmas present.
On the other hand, if a lot of people had HD TVs but no HD console, they'd soon want one to fully enjoy your TV. Simply a smart move by Nintendo to wait.
PataHikari said:Japan has the highest HDTV adoption rate of the three regions.
Japan is also where the Wii is most popular.
Bububut low development costs.Stinkles said:europe is way behind US and Japan on HD adoption.
The Wii should have supported 720p. It's not really debatable. Every new TV is an HD set. It was a baffling decision. Even the 480p through component looks grim.
Stinkles said:europe is way behind US and Japan on HD adoption.
The Wii should have supported 720p. It's not really debatable. Every new TV is an HD set. It was a baffling decision. Even the 480p through component looks grim.
LCGeek said:Wii should be a lot of things, so should the other two, it's not but 720p in it's current form would be waste considering the amount of ram and power the system has.
Stinkles said:europe is way behind US and Japan on HD adoption.
The Wii should have supported 720p. It's not really debatable. Every new TV is an HD set. It was a baffling decision. Even the 480p through component looks grim.
StevieP said:And are people seriously trying to imply that videogames are anywhere near reaching 'art'?
PepsimanVsJoe said:Games as art huh?
You can show me a picture of a game and call it art and I'd believe you.
You can show me a movie from a game and call it art and still I'd believe you.
You can play music from a game and call it art and again I'd believe you.
You show me a game and call it art but I will still call it a game.
That's just my take on it.
I play games not only for fun but for an understanding of game design. Everything else is just cake frosting imo.
PepsimanVsJoe said:Games as art huh?
You can show me a picture of a game and call it art and I'd believe you.
You can show me a movie from a game and call it art and still I'd believe you.
You can play music from a game and call it art and again I'd believe you.
You show me a game and call it art but I will still call it a game.
That's just my take on it.
I play games not only for fun but for an understanding of game design. Everything else is just cake frosting imo.
Duckhuntdog said:So true. Even when people who create games, by and large, also do not consider games to be art, rather products that have art "in them." This debate of games as art rages on, fueled by the insecurities and want of acceptance by a group of people who hope by labeling games as art, will by proxy, somehow have society at large no longer look down upon them and their hobby/job. You know what? Who cares.
Games should be judged on the one thing that makes them stand out. That which makes one game better than another: gameplay. Outside of that the rest is, as the Pepsiman states, if frosting. Bioshock on the Wii that recreates the gameplay 100% is still Bioshock even though the graphics have been toned down.
And this thread, which keeps going, should have ended long ago. But it's hard to end a thread when the hundred million fans of a system that dominated the last two gens, now are stuck with a $600 investment that is more of less stuck in last place and having games slowly being taken away. And having to experience that creates fear, and that fear drives the silly notion of being set back a generation, because the competition, which you thought marginalized has now coming roaring back to take your crown that.
Complacency sure breeds silly notions. To that end, Sony fans- Karma is a bitch, suck it up and deal with it, you are beginning to whine worse in a single year, than Nintendo fans have for a decade.
Here comes the wrath of GAF upon me...
moku said:It also comes complete with the exact same people, saying the exact same thing.
BTW, that remark by Drinky is completly unacceptable, and I would hope something is done about it.
Duckhuntdog said:Games should be judged on the one thing that makes them stand out. That which makes one game better than another: gameplay. Outside of that the rest is, as the Pepsiman states, if frosting. Bioshock on the Wii that recreates the gameplay 100% is still Bioshock even though the graphics have been toned down.
Shin Johnpv said:Bullshit. As an artist myself (my undergrad degree is in fine arts) I completely dissagre. Some of the greatest artists the world has ever seen did so with shitty tools. Look at the renaissance, those paintings weren't made with modern day oils and perfectly matched colors. They were made with HOME MADE oil paints and pigments. Those paintings are still better than what most people do.
Many artists consider the challenge of working with lesser tools the true art form. Any artist who tries to claim his work isn't good because of the tools, is a shitty artists. That's the god's honest truth right there.
segarr said:I hope you don't consider this "wrath", I could care less about the "Games are/are not art" debate (It's based entirely on semantics and opinion) and as an "Xbot", I feel that my position hasn't changed much from last gen (Our console seems to have the second spot down for the time being, and lots of games coming out that I want and that I know will sell good so therefore will continue to come out..no worries)....but I think that this "graphics don't matter...at all" angle is BS....if graphics and other technical things didn't matter, we wouldn't have new consoles every 6 or 7 years (okay, 4 or 5 for Microsft, har har). I don't see how the "gameplay" could be the same without some of the effects used in the game...a big daddy that looks like a cardboard box wouldn't be threatening, a little sister that didn't look real wouldn't draw sympathy, etc etc etc...
It is the case that some posters are more equal than others. Drinky's had some fun here poking the bee's nest and people played into it as usual, but it's too bad Drinky felt the need to bring an unrelated bit of slur into it this time.HylianTom said:Apparently NeoGAF sees nothing wrong with the use of such an epithet. Either that, or some posters are more equal than others.
Segata Sanshiro said:It is the case that some posters are more equal than others. Drinky's had some fun here poking the bee's nest and people played into it as usual, but it's too bad Drinky felt the need to bring an unrelated bit of slur into it this time.
Oh well though, I can assure you Drinky doesn't give a rat's ass about losing the respect or whatever of internet denizens. This is pretty much the only place he acts like a frothing moronic asshole, so that should tell you a great deal about what he thinks of GAF.
Lobster said:Capcom and Nintendo are probably both sipping wine, eating crackers and laughing right now.
I dunno. I was basically told to "deal with it" when I had a problem with a particular racist avatar that people were using, so I can tell you right now the rules are flexible and arbitrary. Much as I hate to pass along advice that pissed me off so much, I'm afraid you're going to have to "deal with it".HylianTom said:I understand this, but how far should GAF let these characters go with their slurs? Had it been racial or anti-Semitic, would Drinky still be here? I find it quite disgusting that he gets away with this because "he's being Drinky."
the thoroughbred said:We have a winner. Nice one.
Add to that. It'd probably be some vintage wine, a box of expensive cubans. They could just release a pokemon trailer, and overshadow this peice of news. Yes a game that's already released.
Wii might not be doing its previous numbers in Japan, but here in the UK, everyone I know, pretty much is planning on getting a Wii sometime in the future. Their isn't anyone I know, that doesn't actually want one. Soon that novelty may wear off, until a new fad is introduced, but if they keep a steady amount of headliners, it will sell.
DCharlie said:well done , this thread will have surely made Tim proud.
you turned a Tim Rogers thread into a shocking "games is art" thread...
why not go the whole hog and emulate the man by starting to talking about that most delicious bowl of ramen you had when you met with suicide survivor ex-punk rock outfit leading lady Junko, who you just happened to bump into while getting chocolate covered sunflower seeds from a small local market in the back streets of Seoul after a Soul Calibur tournament?
segarr said:A big daddy that looks like a cardboard box wouldn't be threatening, a little sister that didn't look real wouldn't draw sympathy, etc etc etc...
LCGeek said:Anyone find it ironic you said the phrase having gaming slowly being taken away as if the ps brand of fans can make such a complaint. This group needs to grow up sega and nintendo fans lost a lot of games to the ps brand shouldn't be that hard to accept the phrase what comes around... Sony screwed it up for ya, I blame ms mostly for this generation problems, but sony made it worse by band wagonning the retared ideology of the hd generation marketing bs.
StevieP said:So you prefer a big daddy that looks to be coated in wax? Because that's not what metal looks like. Nor does a little sister look anything close to being real, even in the uncanney valley sense.
Safe Bet said:How the fuck can you paint the Mona Lisa without paint brushes you stupid asshole?
Better Tools lead to Better Art
PS
I'lll take this ban with joy...
Stinkles said:europe is way behind US and Japan on HD adoption.
The Wii should have supported 720p. It's not really debatable. Every new TV is an HD set. It was a baffling decision. Even the 480p through component looks grim.
LCGeek said:Anyone find it ironic you said the phrase having gaming slowly being taken away as if the ps brand of fans can make such a complaint. This group needs to grow up sega and nintendo fans lost a lot of games to the ps brand shouldn't be that hard to accept the phrase what comes around... Sony screwed it up for ya, I blame ms mostly for this generation problems, but sony made it worse by band wagonning the retared ideology of the hd generation marketing bs.
DCharlie said:...why not go the whole hog and emulate the man by talking about that most delicious bowl of ramen you had when you met with suicide survivor ex-punk rock outfit leading lady Junko, who you just happened to bump into while getting chocolate covered sunflower seeds from a small local market in the back streets of Seoul after a Soul Calibur tournament?
DCharlie said:well done , this thread will have surely made Tim proud.
you turned a Tim Rogers thread into a shocking "games is art" thread...
why not go the whole hog and emulate the man by starting to talking about that most delicious bowl of ramen you had when you met with suicide survivor ex-punk rock outfit leading lady Junko, who you just happened to bump into while getting chocolate covered sunflower seeds from a small local market in the back streets of Seoul after a Soul Calibur tournament?
Duckhuntdog said:Well I said games, not gaming. I don't see gaming being taken away from PS3 brand, although Sony did a great job of playing up the multimedia aspect of the system in the beginning more so than the game console aspect, MS is guilty as well.
But I do see games being taken away from the PS3 and given to other systems, and eventually see 360 games befalling the same fate, as well as the Wii.
It is very easy to cast stones at Nintendo, to blame them, who else are the Sony and MS fans going to blame but the system that is successful? But it was not Nintendo that brought us to this crux. I agree that if we were to realistically cast blame, it should be rightfully towards MS and Sony, for pushing the gaming aspects of their systems as the lowest bullet point on the feature list, below such essential parts of gaming such as HD and Blu-ray, for without these games could not be done.
As I said, Karma is a bitch.
Rhazer Fusion said:I think this was mentioned, but I think Microsoft is mostly responsible for starting the generation a year earlier than scheduled which has lead to some of these problems we are facing. I think that is one of the reasons the PS3 was so expensive because Sony wasn't expecting to have to bring it out a year earlier. I think that PS3 was schedled for release a year later with a much more reasonable price.
Safe Bet said:How the fuck can you paint the Mona Lisa without paint brushes you stupid asshole?
Better Tools lead to Better Art
PS
I'lll take this ban with joy...
I don't think you had to stretch very far to see how some would interpret the Wii as a threat to gaming's continued evolution,
Amir0x said:The easiest way to answer your rant is to say there isn't any difference in the proposed "laziness" of those who make Wii games, and those who make 360/PS3 games - only in one spectrum the "same old ideas" have Wiimote functionality tacked on, and in the other the "same old ideas" have better visuals, physics, A.I., scale, and more tacked on.
You can get new ideas on any platform, or evolution of old ideas on any platform. Some suck, some are good. 360 and PS3 has some, Wii has some. In the end, though, what I care about is how those games are: were they fun, and are they a meaningful leap over what I played before? In the case of Wii, the answer is almost always "no". Motion controls have thus far proven to be a tame, unjustified jump at best ...some superior things, mostly inferior things. In the case of 360, it is almost always "yes"... even if the advancement is just relating to visuals.
Evolution in games, distilled to its very core, is simply a question: "Are the games better?" If they are, there you go. You don't need any of this other bullshit being tossed around. You don't even need people, since some of the best games and best ideas are sold to nobody at all. The people on the creative end, those making the games, they'll be everywhere. They're not only going to be on Wii, they're not even mostly going to be on Wii. They'll go where they think their games are best suited, ultimately, and if that relies on motion control so be it. Maybe those ideas will actually be worth half a damn. But so far, the evolution I've seen - where it counts, that is to say where the best and most fun games are - is not on Wii. It has done nothing. I don't care that my mother enjoys it, I don't care that my grandma enjoys it. These shallow, tech demo mini-game bullshit compilations are the antithesis of what is good in games. And until that changes, you can pretend Wii is an "open door" for new ideas all you want... it has demonstrated none of that at all.
Amir0x said:It has done nothing. I don't care that my mother enjoys it, I don't care that my grandma enjoys it. These shallow, tech demo mini-game bullshit compilations are the antithesis of what is good in games. And until that changes, you can pretend Wii is an "open door" for new ideas all you want... it has demonstrated none of that at all.