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[SmackCrackleNPop]

Tom Brady couldn't even beat Eli Manning in the Super Bowl. Twice. I assume he was trying to cheat then too, but it didn't work.

Truly ELIte.

 

[Megalosaro]

Well Kraft and Goodell best of friends i wouldn't be shock Brady isn't suspended at all, still think Kraft made a deal to get it reduced to 1 game, this is why he's dropping his appeal..just my little conspiracy theory..

We'll find our soon enough. I kind of wouldn't be surprised. I wonder how this will affect Brady and krafts relation.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

Tom Brady couldn't even beat Eli Manning in the Super Bowl. Twice. I assume he was trying to cheat then too, but it didn't work.

Truly ELIte.

There have been only 2 times in NFL history since 2012 that a Quarterback completed 35 passes against the Seattle Seahawks defense.

Spoiler

1st was Tom Brady

Spoiler

2nd was also Tom Brady. Was he cheating during his superbowl win?

 

[LyleLanley]

There have been only 2 times in NFL history since 2012 that a Quarterback completed 35 passes against the Seattle Seahawks defense.

Spoiler

1st was Tom Brady

Spoiler

2nd was also Tom Brady. Was he cheating during his superbowl win?

I love Tim Brady as much as the next guy but this seems like a rather specific stat.

 

[Officerrob]

There have been only 2 times in NFL history since 2012 that a Quarterback completed 35 passes against the Seattle Seahawks defense.

Spoiler

1st was Tom Brady

Spoiler

2nd was also Tom Brady. Was he cheating during his superbowl win?

All it took was the entire secondary being injured

 

[SmackCrackleNPop]

What was Tom Brady on the night the secondary got injured? We need an investigation!

 

[hom3land]

What was Tom Brady on the night the secondary got injured? We need an investigation!

text messages retrieved show tom being told to break a leg the night before the super bowl.


Its pretty obvious he must be behind all the injuries Seattle Defense took.

 

[Tragicomedy]

There have been only 2 times in NFL history since 2012 that a Quarterback completed 35 passes against the Seattle Seahawks defense.

Spoiler

1st was Tom Brady

Spoiler

2nd was also Tom Brady. Was he cheating during his superbowl win?

There has only been one post in this thread today that contains meaningless off topic statistics.

Spoiler

It is yours.

Let me try one! Only one team last season beat both Super Bowl teams, and they did so by a combined 31 points. In fact, they humiliated the Pats so badly (27 points) that Tom Brady was benched.

Spoiler

It was the Chiefs.

 

[Roberto Duran]

McNally's nickname was "bird", he must be a bird!

 

[Tragicomedy]

McNally's nickname was "bird", he must be a bird!

Have you ever, as in ever, heard of someone nicknamed "deflator"? Have you ever heard that term used in a weight loss context?

Do you believe in massive coincidences like dudes talking about deflating footballs in clear terms, and one of them is a chubby dude who happens to be called the deflator by his friends...because of his weight?!?

"Hey, fat dude I call the deflator, Tom Brady is pissed about the balls! Or maybe he's pissed that you're so fat, even though he apparently doesn't know you and had never met you!"

"Yeah, I'm going to keep dieting so I can deflate my fat body while overinflating the balls to balloon status! Maybe Tom Brady, who I have never met, can provide me shoes and clothing as compensation. You know, for hitting my weight loss goals."

 

[not psycho]

It was lower, both lower than the Colts balls and lower than the scientific experiments Exponent did for the Wells report would have allowed the balls to be. It did not "fit with what conditions could have done to the balls".

The Wells report wasn't shaky at all. It had clear cut proof that Tom Brady is a liar and was more than aware of the deflating taking place. You have to dive down some pretty stupid 1984 doublespeak rabbit holes to think otherwise.

As shown in the Wells report, the difference in pressure was 1 PSI according to the official who did the measurement. That is exactly the difference we would expect based on the conditions.

The Wells report acknowledges that the difference is fully explained, but makes 2 arguments against it:

1. The official may remember incorrectly about which gauge he used. If so, that would add about .38 to the difference, because the gauges measure .38 apart.

2. Based on the measurements of the 4 Colts balls, they assume the temperature pre-game must have have been lower, and therefore the balls should not have dropped as much.

And this is their conclusion:

Had the Logo Gauge been used pre-game, there is a small window in which the Game Day results from both teams are theoretically explainable. However, this would require the testing of the Patriots footballs to have begun immediately upon entering the Officials Locker Room, before the balls had time to warm up.

Despite artificially lowering the temperature pre-game, they still conclude that there is a small window in which both the Colts and Patriots measurements are explained by the conditions.

Without their assumptions, the difference is fully explained. With their assumptions, it is explained only in a small window.

And their assumptions are terrible. We know the officials switched gauges during the halftime measurements. Yet they assume absolutely that the official did not switch pre-game, and that the official is mistaken about which gauge he used. It's absurd.

--------

The Wells report shows that the difference is fully explained unless you make some unjustified assumptions.

But what if you do make those assumptions? Then the difference is tiny. If the official remembered incorrectly about the gauge he used, the Patriots could have deflated their balls by .38. But nobody is going to notice a .38 PSI difference. That's not a "flat" ball.

If the early reports had said "Patriots may have deflated balls by .38 PSI if official remembers wrong" instead of "Patriots deflate 11 of 12 balls by 2+ PSI" this whole thing would have played out vastly differently.

-------

We shouldn't even have to talk about any of this, because the case should have been immediately tossed out.

The NFL's procedure involving ball pressure is hilariously bad. Officials bring random gauges to the game that, in this case, measure .38 different from each other. They don't keep track of which gauge they are using. They don't keep track of the measurements. When they do re-inflate balls, they aren't careful about it; in one instance they over-inflated Brady's balls to 16 PSI, 2.5 PSI over their own maximum limit. The Colts broke the NFL rules by using a needle on the Patriots ball during the game.

The NFL's procedure made it impossible for the Patriots to defend themselves. They can't point to pre-game measurements, there aren't any. They can't point to which gauge was used pre-game, it wasn't written down (although the official's memory agrees with the Patriots). When the officials over-inflate their balls above the limit, they're out of luck. When the Colts break NFL rules, the Patriots suffer for it.

The correct response was for the NFL to decide if they cared about ball pressure. If so, fix the system. If not, let teams do whatever they want.

 

[ViperVisor]

How did the Colts find out to request the NFL look into this? They made it up and got insanely lucky? The Ravens made it up and told the Colts and they believed the lie?

If you are saying the Patriots are innocent it would require this situation to be the biggest confluence of coincidences in recorded history.

-A guy happens to be on tape taking the footballs into a bathroom.
-The footballs happen to be solidly beyond margin of error under the limit.
-The guys happen to have messages about being rewarded from Brady for whatever.
-Brady happened to have amnesia about knowing the football equipment guy who has been with the Pats for decades.
-Brady happened to joke about liking the Gronk spiked softer football.
-Brady happened to be one of the guys who got the football prep allowed rule change in the 1st place.

 

[Quotient]

Have you ever, as in ever, heard of someone nicknamed "deflator"? Have you ever heard that term used in a weight loss context?

Deflating is a term used in bodybuilding - usually found with roids conversations.

EDIT: The text message "Deflate and give somebody that jacket" may suggestion they used the word in other contexts.

 

[Quotient]

How did the Colts find out to request the NFL look into this? They made it up and got insanely lucky? The Ravens made it up and told the Colts and they believed the lie?

If you are saying the Patriots are innocent it would require this situation to be the biggest confluence of coincidences in recorded history.

-A guy happens to be on tape taking the footballs into a bathroom.
-The footballs happen to be solidly beyond margin of error under the limit.
-The guys happen to have messages about being rewarded from Brady for whatever.
-Brady happened to have amnesia about knowing the football equipment guy who has been with the Pats for decades.
-Brady happened to joke about liking the Gronk spiked softer football.
-Brady happened to be one of the guys who got the football prep allowed rule change in the 1st place.

A few points:

The rule brady changed was with regards to the away team providing footballs, prior to that the home team provided both balls. Even with this rule change, the home team's ballboys control both teams footballs - the Patriots would only be able to deflate footballs on the side-lines in plain site of officials, tv and spectators.

Also, It is common practice for players to sign autographs for equipment staff, and for Brady this is no different. According to the Patriots rebuttal, he would even provide gifts to 15 non-player personnel for the holidays.

 

[Spinluck]

I love Tim Brady as much as the next guy but this seems like a rather specific stat.

Luck and Rivers have torched the Seattle defense before. It's not like they can't be beat. The only things that were impressive about Tom's SB performance was that it was done with regular balls and he came back down 2 possessions in the 4th. He's really lucky the nickelback went down and that Seattle's PEDs finally broke them down.

 

[chadskin]

Despite artificially lowering the temperature pre-game, they still conclude that there is a small window in which both the Colts and Patriots measurements are explained by the conditions.

Without their assumptions, the difference is fully explained. With their assumptions, it is explained only in a small window.

And their assumptions are terrible. We know the officials switched gauges during the halftime measurements. Yet they assume absolutely that the official did not switch pre-game, and that the official is mistaken about which gauge he used. It's absurd.

You can quote the full text, too:

Had the Logo Gauge been used pre-game, there is a small window in which the Game Day results from both teams are theoretically explainable. However, this would require the testing of the Patriots footballs to have begun immediately upon entering the Officials Locker Room, before the balls had time to warm up. Moreover, a majority of the Patriots balls would have had to have been in a condition equivalent to what Exponent tested as “wet.” According to Paul, Weiss, both of those conditions were most likely not present on Game Day. Therefore, there appears to be no realistic window in which the Game Day results from both teams can be explained.

Also, we know the Pats and the Colts inflated their game balls to 12.5 psi and 13.0 psi respectively before the game, using their needles and checking the psi levels with their gauges. If Anderson had used the Logo Gauge which is off by 0.3 to 0.45 psi from the Non-Logo Gauge, it would mean the gauges the Pats and the Colts used were both off by the same margin since all but three Pats balls passed Anderson's examination. Not a very likely scenario, to say the least.

As for the halftime measurements, they were done by two other officials. Anderson was not involved, he wasn't even present when the measurements took place. So I don't see how a different approach by different people would be "absurd".

Moreover, the Colts balls were well above the theoretical range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, hence, given the same conditions, the Pats balls would've had to be well above, or at least within, their range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law as well. But they weren't.

According to Exponent, based on the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees), the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room. Most of the individual Patriots measurements recorded at halftime, however, were lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law. Indeed, once Exponent converted the game day measurements recorded for each gauge into a corresponding “Master Gauge” pressure (in order to provide for a direct comparison with the results predicted by the calculations), the measurements for all but three of the Patriots game balls, as measured by both gauges, were lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law.

In contrast, if one were to use the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Colts game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 13.0 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees), the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Colts balls should have measured between 12.00 and 11.80 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room. All of the Colts measurements recorded at halftime were above this range, once converted into a corresponding “Master Gauge” pressure, and therefore can be explained by the applicable scientific principles.

The Game Day simulation Exponent ran also falls perfectly in line with all their assumptions.

But whatever makes you sleep better I guess.

 

[not psycho]

Have you ever, as in ever, heard of someone nicknamed "deflator"? Have you ever heard that term used in a weight loss context?

http://i.imgur.com/oVBnpEl.png

It looks like he is using it as a weight joke here. Can't be sure.

More importantly, his job is literally deflating footballs. He deflates them multiple times during the preparation process. This isn't some random person using the word deflate, it's a person whose job it is to deflate footballs.

Thinking of it that way, it gives a different meaning to the so-called damning texts:

McNally: Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a f----- balloon

Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done

Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though

Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs f----- us...a few of then were at almost 16

Jastremski: They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

McNally: F--- tom ...16 is nothing...wait till next sunday

Jastremski: Omg! Spaz

The key phrase is "he was right though." That means Brady probably got upset with McNally (who prepares the balls) because they were way over-inflated. McNally is then upset with how he was treated, which is why he says "Tom sucks".

Nothing about this implies to me that Brady wants balls below the lower limit. Just because he wants them below 16 PSI, which is actually 2.5 PSI above the maximum limit?

In fact, doesn't this imply that there was no deflation scheme? How could this sequence of events have happened if there was? The officials over-inflated the balls, and that is how Brady got them. If these guys were running a deflation scheme they must know how the officials work.

 

[not psycho]

Also, we know the Pats and the Colts inflated their game balls to 12.5 psi and 13.0 psi respectively before the game, using their needles and checking the psi levels with their gauges. If Anderson had used the Logo Gauge which is off by 0.3 to 0.45 psi from the Non-Logo Gauge, it would mean the gauges the Pats and the Colts used were both off by the same margin since all but three Pats balls passed Anderson's examination. Not a very likely scenario, to say the least.

We don't know any of this. We don't have measurements from either team or from the officials. It's all based on general statements. None were written down, nor was the gauge marked down.

It's possible that the official used different gauges, as happened at halftime. It's possible that the Colts were higher than 13 pre-game, as indicated by their halftime measurements.

As for the halftime measurements, they were done by two other officials. Anderson was not involved, he wasn't even present when the measurements took place. So I don't see how a different approach by different people would be "absurd".

The thing that is absurd is assuming both that the pre-game official is mistaken about which gauge he used, and that he did not switch gauges. The fact that the officials must have switched gauges at halftime is added evidence that such a thing does happen.

Also, nothing the investigators found can explain the Colts halftime readings. The same official measured all of the Patriots balls higher, but then 3 of the 4 Colts balls lower, and one very high (12.95). The investigators never once had the "high gauge" measure lower than the "low gauge", and they did not even attempt to explain the result of 12.95.

Given that they don't keep track of gauges, and that they ran out of time after measuring only 4 Colts balls, anything is possible with those measurements. They could have used the high gauge for more than half of the measurements, greatly skewing the results. At the very least we know they were switching the gauges around.

Moreover, the Colts balls were well above the theoretical range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, hence, given the same conditions, the Pats balls would've had to be well above, or at least within, their range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law as well. But they weren't.

Except they set up the experiment precisely to make the Colts balls fit. Including artificially lowering the temperature pre-game. Remember, the Colts balls are the ones with weird results at halftime, including that 12.95 (which also shows they probably were not at 13 pre-game). They are the ones that don't fit the theory. The Patriots fit perfectly with the conditions... as long as you don't change them to fit the Colts weird results.

If the Colts balls were above 13 pre-game, or if they switched gauges pre-game, or if something funny went on with the halftime measurements (which we know it did), then they should not have lowered the temperature to force the Colts balls to fit. In which case, the Patriots balls would have fit.

The procedure was not anywhere near strict enough to use the Colts balls as a control. No pre-game measurements, and then 4 measurements which (by the investigators own work) must involve gauge switching at halftime.

 

[Quotient]

I suspect they measure the Colt footballs at the very end of the half-time break, this especially makes sense since they claim they ran out of time. So the order of events would be:

1. Measure 11 patriots footballs
2. Re-inflate patriot footballs
3. Measure 4 colt footballs

If they did leave the colt footballs till the end that would mean the colts footballs spent 10+ minutes in the officials locker room where their internal pressure would have increased.

EDIT: Even with the order the report describes, the Colts footballs were inside the room for between 6-9 minutes before being tested.

 

[chadskin]

We don't know any of this. We don't have measurements from either team or from the officials. It's all based on general statements. None were written down, nor was the gauge marked down.

It's possible that the official used different gauges, as happened at halftime. It's possible that the Colts were higher than 13 pre-game, as indicated by their halftime measurements.

I think Anderson is perfectly capable of putting a gauge into a ball, reading whether they're within the permissible range and allowing the balls for the game or not. As I said, he actually declined three Pats balls that were below the range. That it isn't written down is certainly unfortunate but it's otherwise a weak attempt of deflection, especially since the Pats already stated they inflate their balls to 12.5 psi and the Colts to 13.0 psi. A slight deviation by 0.1 can always occur, e.g. when the gauge is put in by the ref and some air escapes the ball, but by and large I don't have the slightest doubt the balls were set to 12.5 psi and 13.0 psi respectively.

The thing that is absurd is assuming both that the pre-game official is mistaken about which gauge he used, and that he did not switch gauges. The fact that the officials must have switched gauges at halftime is added evidence that such a thing does happen.

The pre-game official was Anderson who did not switch gauges, he measured all game balls with the same Non-Logo gauge. The halftime officials were Blakeman and Prioleau who were handed the two gauges by Anderson and then seemingly switched gauges after they've measured the Pats balls. I still don't see what's particularly absurd about it.

Also, nothing the investigators found can explain the Colts halftime readings. The same official measured all of the Patriots balls higher, but then 3 of the 4 Colts balls lower, and one very high (12.95). The investigators never once had the "high gauge" measure lower than the "low gauge", and they did not even attempt to explain the result of 12.95.

As I said above, all of Blakeman's measurements of the Pats balls were lower than Prioleau's while all but one of Blakeman's measurements of the Colts balls were higher than Prioleau's which suggests they've switched the gauges once in between.

They do offer two possible explanations for the 12.95 psi value:

Exponent believes that this anomaly may be the result of a transcription error where the measurements recorded were attributed to the opposite game official (i.e., on game day, Blakeman measured 12.95 psi and Prioleau measured 12.50 psi) or a recording error where the pressure measured by one of the officials was incorrectly recorded. Exponent controlled for this anomaly in its analysis of the data.

More specifically, these are the scenarios they've looked at:

We used this model to evaluate four different potential scenarios:
1. The data exactly as listed on the handwritten notes from Game Day.
2. Assuming the “switch” of the gauges in between the Patriots and Colts measurements.
3. Assuming Scenario 2 while concurrently assuming that the third Colts measurement was switched when recorded.
4. Fully discarding the third Colts measurement.

Also, what does "The investigators never once had the "high gauge" measure lower than the "low gauge" mean? The Logo gauge measured consistently higher, by 0.30 to 0.45 psi, than the Non-Logo gauge, both of which they had access to for their scientific experiments. I don't even. What.

Except they set up the experiment precisely to make the Colts balls fit. Including artificially lowering the temperature pre-game. Remember, the Colts balls are the ones with weird results at halftime, including that 12.95 (which also shows they probably were not at 13 pre-game). They are the ones that don't fit the theory. The Patriots fit perfectly with the conditions... as long as you don't change them to fit the Colts weird results.

I'd like a citation for the claim they were "artificially lowering the temperature pre-game" to somehow make the Colts balls fit.

Their Game Day simulation was exactly the same for both:

in general, the simulation procedure was as follows:
1. Eleven Patriots balls and four Colts balls were measured pre-game using either the Non-Logo or Logo Gauge, in a simulated Officials Locker Room that was temperature controlled.
2. All footballs were allowed to sit in an environment representative of the Officials Locker Room for approximately 2 hours before being taken to a simulated field (in actuality, a large temperature-controlled chamber). The field conditions were identical to those on Game Day, namely 50°F at the start of the half and dropping to 48°F near the end of the half.
3. inside the chamber, the condition of the balls was varied. Some remained dry and in ball bags (these bags, provided by Paul, Weiss, are believed to be similar, if not identical, to those used by the Patriots and Colts on Game Day), and some were occasionally wetted from a standard household spray bottle to simulate exposure to the damp environment present on Game Day. The balls remained in the chamber for 2 hours, the length of time that the balls were outside before coming back inside at halftime.
4. At the end of 2 hours, the balls were removed from the field and brought back into the simulated Officials Locker Room in the ball bags.
5. The procedure used to generate the halftime measurements during Game Day was replicated. Namely, the Logo and Non-Logo Gauges were used. The Patriots balls were measured first and then the Colts balls were measured. The timing of these measurements varied for each simulation.

Sounds like you need to take a look into the Appendix of the Wells report.

 

[Touchdown]

dddd ;lk;lkj;lk not 38 pages on this

 

[Tragicomedy]

Sounds like you need to take a look into the Appendix of the Wells report.

Why would he? It doesn't like up with his preconceived notions or the fairy tale "official" Pats version.

 

[Lenardo]

If Anderson used the gauge he said he did, then all but 3 balls, while under inflated, met the pressure drop predicted at halftime, and one of the 3 was off by 0.1 psi...

Brady will get reduced to 1-2 games tops and it will be forgotten except when they win another superbowl next year.

 

[chadskin]

If Anderson used the gauge he said he did, then all but 3 balls, while under inflated, met the pressure drop predicted at halftime, and one of the 3 was off by 0.1 psi...

All but 3 balls were below the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law:

Specifically, all but three of the Patriots footballs, as measured by both gauges, registered pressure levels lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, when applied to the conditions considered most likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship Game.

All of them were under inflated.

 

[not psycho]

The pre-game official was Anderson who did not switch gauges, he measured all game balls with the same Non-Logo gauge.

Anderson's best recollection is that he used the Logo gauge.

You (and the Wells report) are arguing that he is incorrect. The truth is we don't know what he did. Maybe he used the Logo gauge as he thought he did. Maybe he switched in the middle. The procedure used does not allow us to know.

As I said above, all of Blakeman's measurements of the Pats balls were lower than Prioleau's while all but one of Blakeman's measurements of the Colts balls were higher than Prioleau's which suggests they've switched the gauges once in between.

So you're saying, in a rush to measure 4 of the Colts balls before running out of time, they happened to switch gauges between the Patriots and Colts balls, and then they happened to misread the results (the 12.95) for one of the Colts balls (which for some reason should cast no doubt on the others).

At the same time, we can be absolutely sure that the gauge was not switched pre-game, that the official coincidentally was wrong about which gauge he thought he used, and that we can use general statements about 12.5 and 13 as exact and accurate despite the gauges themselves having a large variance (same gauge gets widely different results when repeated) and having not a single shred of recorded evidence. Uh huh.

I'd like a citation for the claim they were "artificially lowering the temperature pre-game" to somehow make the Colts balls fit.

Their Game Day simulation was exactly the same for both:

Sounds like you need to take a look into the Appendix of the Wells report.

Sadly, I did spend the time to read it:

However, the pre-game temperature was set at 67°F because this was the only temperature that allowed the Colts balls to subsequently reach their average pressure during the simulated Locker Room Period. Any pre-game temperature that was higher than 67°F resulted in the Colts balls reaching the Game Day halftime average pressure later than 13.5 minutes into the Locker Room Period.

They reduced the temperature to 67 (from 71 in the other test) when using the Logo gauge. This reduction was entirely due to the Colts balls. It was taking 13.5+ minutes into halftime for them to reach their supposed pressures at 71, so they lowered it to force the Colts readings to fit their model (or rather, to force the model to fit the Colts readings).

To be clear, if we believe the official, then the Patriots balls are the ones that make sense. They also had a Nobel Laureate explain it. The Colts readings are the ones that, scientifically, appear too high.

But the Colts results are suspect for many reasons. We don't know any of their pre-game measurements, because none were recorded; if the 4 balls were above 13, that explains why they were so high at halftime. Only 4 balls were tested at halftime because they ran out of time, and the gauge used was not recorded for those. The halftime measurements are suspicious because 1 of the 4 balls tested got a reading of 12.95, which casts strong doubt if it was ever 13, and because the results indicate that gauges were switched, but we don't know when (the gauge that measures higher readings could have been used more than half the time). We don't know exactly when during halftime they were measured, though it certainly seems to be toward the end since they ran out of time. If they were capable of misreading the 12.95 (as you just suggested) they were capable of misreading other scores.

If you came into it without a preconceived notion, you would not lower the temperature to fit the Colts balls. You would say "hey, the Colts readings don't fit. Maybe we assumed something false about them."


And even if you did come in with a preconceived notion that the Patriots cheated, you should still throw out the case based on the procedure used. The officials didn't keep track of readings or which gauge they used, despite the difference in measurement. They only tested 4 Colts balls at halftime, and only after a long period of leaving them in a warm room. The Colts broke the rules testing the Patriots ball themselves during the game (and then clammed up about it because the ball they tested was above what would be expected, and measured differently on each attempt). The officials had no issue over-inflating the Patriots balls to 2.5 PSI above the maximum limit. The proper response is to buy the officials a decent gauge and fix the testing procedure. Or, if you don't care about pressure, let the teams do whatever they want.

Instead they let the early false reports of 2+ PSI drops stand, destroying any chance the Patriots had (I certainly don't expect to change any opinions now). Now that we know the Patriots readings are the ones that make perfect sense if the official is believed, and the worst case scenario is deflating by a tiny, unnoticeable amount, it is far too late.

 

[ViperVisor]

The officials had no issue over-inflating the Patriots balls to 2.5 PSI above the maximum limit.

What gauge did they use and what temperature was it measured?

We have a quote of a guy about a few being almost 16. We are going with as legit info?

But we can't use any brain power to infer that this very conversation implicates Brady and co up to their necks?

Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done

Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though

Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs f----- us...a few of then were at almost 16

Jastremski: They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

McNally: F--- tom ...16 is nothing...wait till next sunday

Jastremski: Omg! Spaz

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...-new-england-patriots-probably-deflated-balls

Your argument is 'Yeah but Jimmy and Timmy messed up the rules too'

 

[Megalosaro]

What gauge did they use and what temperature was it measured?

We have a quote of a guy about a few being almost 16. We are going with as legit info?

But we can't use any brain power to infer that this very conversation implicates Brady and co up to their necks?

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...-new-england-patriots-probably-deflated-balls

Your argument is 'Yeah but Jimmy and Timmy messed up the rules too'

That doesn't implicate Brady in anything. It was McNally's job to prepare the balls within legal means. Probably not a stress free job.

 

[ViperVisor]

IT'S NOT ABOUT 2 PSI or 1 PSI or even just .1 PSI

It's about the fairly obvious premeditated conspiracy involving an NFL QB to alter footballs in any way that were given the inspection and OK by officials.

And then the playing dumb to the equivalent of a negative wonderlic score in an attempt to derail the investigation.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Kraft looked like he was going to cry right at that podium. He also really needs to prepare his comments in advance before he goes up there and says things, because he basically bullshitted a bunch of nonsense and refused to admit that his team had done fucked up and also refused to apologize.

I wonder Goodell said to Kraft to make him suddenly look turn around like that. Maybe he told Kraft that the other 31 owners all hate his guts, think he has stolen 4 Super Bowls, and if he continues to act the fool they were going to take it to a vote to strip Kraft of his ownership. Maybe he also told Kraft that as Commissioner even though they are personal friends he has to represent the interests of all 32 owners in addition to everyone else who has a stake in football from the players to the advertisers to the fans. And maybe he also told Kraft he needs to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down or he's going to find out just what kind of authoritah he better respect here.

Either way, Robert Kraft finally found out that he's not the whole fucking NFL and in fact the whole fucking NFL is thermonuclear pissed at him and his cheating franchise.

 

[ViperVisor]

That doesn't implicate Brady in anything. It was McNally's job to prepare the balls within legal means. Probably not a stress free job.

I bet it's like playing jenga in 1 hand and operation in the other while going for the high score in Donkey Kong with your feet.

 

[riotous]

That doesn't implicate Brady in anything. It was McNally's job to prepare the balls within legal means. Probably not a stress free job.

Lol "stress to get them done"?

Inflate balls to 12.5, give to refs... Done.

If done within the rules there is zero stress. The refs can inflate the balls until they explode, unless their is pressure to cheat where is the stress?

 

[chadskin]

Anderson's best recollection is that he used the Logo gauge.

You (and the Wells report) are arguing that he is incorrect. The truth is we don't know what he did. Maybe he used the Logo gauge as he thought he did. Maybe he switched in the middle. The procedure used does not allow us to know.

I just call it logic and common sense when one gauge consistently gives out higher values than the other, both during halftime and the measurements done by Exponent. Again, your whole argument falters anyway the moment you take into consideration that the two gauges the Pats and the Colts used in the process of inflating their balls before the game would have to have been off by the same 0.30 to 0.45 psi range as the gauge Anderson used.

So you're saying, in a rush to measure 4 of the Colts balls before running out of time, they happened to switch gauges between the Patriots and Colts balls, and then they happened to misread the results (the 12.95) for one of the Colts balls (which for some reason should cast no doubt on the others).

We know they measured the Pats balls and then inflated them before they measured the Colts balls. It's entirely possible they accidentally switched the gauges during that whole process and given that none of the officials mentions they did on purpose, it's the most likely scenario.

As the report says, the 12.95 psi value reading is an anomaly and likely the result of a human error - whether the official misread the gauge, the other man who was tasked to write down all the values entered the values for the third Colts ball accidentally in the wrong columns or he simply misheard them, hell, he may have written down 12.55 but due to his bad handwriting it's being interpreted as 12.95. I know, my lower case "a" often looks like an "u". One anomaly does not invalidate the other 14 measurements by the Logo and the Non-Logo gauge that were all given out as expected.

They reduced the temperature to 67 (from 71 in the other test) when using the Logo gauge. This reduction was entirely due to the Colts balls. It was taking 13.5+ minutes into halftime for them to reach their supposed pressures at 71, so they lowered it to force the Colts readings to fit their model (or rather, to force the model to fit the Colts readings).

Since we can assume with a safe certainty the Non-Logo gauge was used by Anderson, the Logo gauge simulation is rather irrelevant.

Still, they didn't decrease the temperature to 67°F randomly to somehow "make the Colts balls fit":

Pre-game temperature (67–71°F): when tested prior to the game, the balls were laid out on the floor of the shower area that is adjacent to the dressing area of the Officials Locker Room. Measurements taken by Exponent on February 7th, 2015 in the shower area ranged between 67°F and 71°F. The shower area is neither actively heated nor cooled and is typically colder than the dressing area of the Officials Locker Room (which is constrained between 71°F and 74°F by the building HVAC).

So it's good to know, if going by a possible pre-game temperature of 67°F and using the Logo gauge, the measurements of the Game Day simulation would still fall in line with the scientific expectations.

To be clear, if we believe the official, then the Patriots balls are the ones that make sense. They also had a Nobel Laureate explain it. The Colts readings are the ones that, scientifically, appear too high.

Ah yes, the Nobel Laureate, a neurobiologist who has nothing to do with the Ideal Gas Law and who started a company in which Kraft Group invested.

They only tested 4 Colts balls at halftime, and only after a long period of leaving them in a warm room.

Given that all their measurements for the Colts balls were above the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, that they were in a warm room for longer than the Pats balls before being measured is certainly one possible explanation for it.

Look, if the Pats had any significant issues with the science done by Exponent, they would've long leveled a proper criticism of it and not published that poor "rebuttal" attempt.

 

[Quotient]

Would i be correct in summarizing it as:

• If the logo gauge was used, the patriots halftime numbers would fall within the expected range, while the colts are too high.
  
• If the non-logo gauge is used, the patriot's halftime numbers are too low, while the colts are in range.

Wells is reporting that since the colts were not accused of tampering and the patriots were that the non-logo gauge was used by Anderson.

Also, were they unable to acquire the Colts or Patriots gauges used to prepare the footballs? It would provide some insight into the accuracy of their gauge in comparison to Anderson's gauge.

 

[DrForester]

Would i be correct in summarizing it as:

• If the logo gauge was used, the patriots halftime numbers would fall within the expected range, while the colts are too high.
  
• If the non-logo gauge is used, the patriot's halftime numbers are too low, while the colts are in range.

Wells is reporting that since the colts were not accused of tampering and the patriots were that the non-logo gauge was used by Anderson.

Also, were they unable to acquire the Colts or Patriots gauges used to prepare the footballs? It would provide some insight into the accuracy of their gauge in comparison to Anderson's gauge.

That would have been the competent and reasonable thing to do if the intention of the investigation was ever to figure out what happened.

 

[LyleLanley]

So now Goodell is saying that the NFL didn't ask the Pats to suspend McNally and Jastremski.

 

[Quotient]

So now Goodell is saying that the NFL didn't ask the Pats to suspend McNally and Jastremski.

Then why does the NFL need to approval their reinstatement?

Relevant quote from NFL:

"Patriots owner Robert Kraft advised Commissioner Roger Goodell last week that Patriots employees John Jastremski and James McNally have been indefinitely suspended without pay by the club, effective on May 6th. Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent."

This jives with what we heard yesterday:

"NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York," Schefter wrote. "New England obliged with the NFL's request."

 

[Liquidus Snake]

Tom Brady is a liar and a theif...

 

[Striker]

Courtesy of 8 x 11 Printer Paper of NFL-GAF

 

[Dr.Acula]

The NFL needs a procedure in place for measuring ball pressure, they're clearly half-assing it. Do we have the historical records of all teams game ball pressures listed somewhere, or are these numbers just scrawled down on cocktail napkins?

While the NFL put some of the finest minds on the investigation, the numbers were recorded by idiots.

Garbage data in, garbage data out, as they say.

 

[forgeforsaken]

The NFL needs a procedure in place for measuring ball pressure, they're clearly half-assing it. Do we have the historical records of all teams game ball pressures listed somewhere, or are these numbers just scrawled down on cocktail napkins?

They're not logged at all, and it seems often not even measured.

 

[Tragicomedy]

So now Goodell is saying that the NFL didn't ask the Pats to suspend McNally and Jastremski.

Of course the NFL didn't suspend those team employees. The team did. Everyone knew that already.

And if I'm one of those two employees, I'm suing the living shit out of the Patriots for wrongful termination. Brady ordered them to prepare the balls to illegal specifications, and I'm not about to play the fall guy for that crap.

What will probably happen (or has already happened) is that Kraft will make sure both employees are well compensated for their silence.

 

[msdstc]

Of course the NFL didn't suspend those team employees. The team did. Everyone knew that already.

And if I'm one of those two employees, I'm suing the living shit out of the Patriots for wrongful termination. Brady ordered them to prepare the balls to illegal specifications, and I'm not about to play the fall guy for that crap.

What will probably happen (or has already happened) is that Kraft will make sure both employees are well compensated for their silence.

wrongful termination... yeah definitely with the way they were trashing Tom via text, perfectly reasonable.

 

[Tragicomedy]

wrongful termination... yeah definitely with the way they were trashing Tom via text, perfectly reasonable.

Did the team suspend them for badmouthing Brady? No. Logic dictates they were suspended for tampering with official team footballs. That fits the narrative that Brady tried to sell America on, how he had no clue about that, how he had never met the ball handlers, etc.

What sources started the rumor that the NFL had those guys suspended? Laughable. Keep closing ranks, Pats.

 

[The Albatross]

IT'S NOT ABOUT 2 PSI or 1 PSI or even just .1 PSI

It's about the fairly obvious premeditated conspiracy involving an NFL QB to alter footballs in any way that were given the inspection and OK by officials.

And then the playing dumb to the equivalent of a negative wonderlic score in an attempt to derail the investigation.

I completely agree with you that it's all about a conspiracy involving an NFL QB to alter footballs. The evidence presented in the Wells report of that conspiracy involving the QB was weak, which is why almost any neutral media reporter of the NFL (take for instance, the NFL Around the League crew, Shefter, etc) were all very surprised by the severity of the punishment for the QB (the most severe punishment in league history not related to an illegal crime, right?).

I'm with you though, that the PSI debate, how the NFL measures balls before or after games, the difference in gauges, the difference in weather, that Patriots had the ball 75% more time than the Colts in the first half, that refs blew up balls to 15PSI earlier in the season, "Deflater means weight loss" etc., etc., is a pissing match of nonsense from either side just to muddle the real issue. The true debate comes down to a conspiracy by the QB to illegally manipulate footballs. The evidence of that conspiracy, presented in the report, seems to come down to a text message conversation in October between two guys who the report admits "were joking." The punishment of Brady is not commensurate to the evidence of a conspiracy presented in the report.

And while I'm obviously a Patriots fan and like Brady, almost every regular reporter of the NFL was surprised as how severe the punishment was by the league. Pats fans wanted no suspension and anything over 0 games is too much, and non-Pats fans or cheerleader reports (Shannon Sharpes of the world or Mike Mad Dogg who want hot takes) want permabans and an askerisk sown onto the #12 Jersey. But, just about everybody else sat up and said "wow, that's a severe punishment" when it was handed down.

What sources started the rumor that the NFL had those guys suspended?

Shefter, quoting "a league source" apparently.

For those asking why Patriots suspended two employees if those two did nothing wrong, as New England claims: NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York. New England obliged with the NFL's request.

 

[msdstc]

Did the team suspend them for badmouthing Brady? No. Logic dictates they were suspended for tampering with official team footballs. That fits the narrative that Brady tried to sell America on, how he had no clue about that, how he had never met the ball handlers, etc.

What sources started the rumor that the NFL had those guys suspended? Laughable. Keep closing ranks, Pats.

Listen I think Tom Brady did this, your agenda makes it so you can't accept anything but what you want though. They have no case given the pats could simply say, they were breaking company policy, by badmouthing and trashing not only a co-worker, but a boss.

 

[Crisco]

This article sums it all up pretty nicely,

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2015/05/tom_brady_appeal_new_england_patriots_fans_have_gone_over_the_deep_end_over.2.html#

Game officials had been warned ahead of time about the Patriots using deflated footballs; the Patriots footballs were in fact deflated; there are dozens of text messages between two Patriots employees referring to deflating footballs; one of these employees initially lied about the eventually deflated footballs’ chain of custody (a protocol violation at the time struck the head referee as alarming); the employee subsequently lied about his whereabouts; alternative to intentional deflation, there is no explanation for the fact that Patriots footballs were more deflated than Colts footballs, or none that has survived repeated testing.

IOW, short of unforeseen new evidence, there is no explanation for the relative PSI pressures of the Colts and Patriots game-balls other than Brady is a dirty dirty cheat (and a liar). Just take your L, deal with it, and move on. The reaction is more embarrassing than the act itself.

 

[forgeforsaken]

This article sums it all up pretty nicely,

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2015/05/tom_brady_appeal_new_england_patriots_fans_have_gone_over_the_deep_end_over.2.html#



IOW, short of unforeseen new evidence, there is no explanation for the relative PSI pressures of the Colts and Patriots game-balls other than Brady is a dirty dirty cheat (and a liar). Just take your L, deal with it, and move on. The reaction is more embarrassing than the act itself.

Without the starting pressures logged, and with the same gauge (or at least calibrated), there is no way of actually knowing if the balls are deflated to the same degree or not.

 

[LyleLanley]

Of course the NFL didn't suspend those team employees. The team did. Everyone knew that already.

And if I'm one of those two employees, I'm suing the living shit out of the Patriots for wrongful termination. Brady ordered them to prepare the balls to illegal specifications, and I'm not about to play the fall guy for that crap.

What will probably happen (or has already happened) is that Kraft will make sure both employees are well compensated for their silence.

Well yeah, I'm not saying the NFL suspended them. Yesterday it was leaked that the NFL asked the Patriots to suspend the two employees right away which seemed like a curious decision by the Pats since they claimed they were innocent.

 

[Tragicomedy]

Listen I think Tom Brady did this, your agenda makes it so you can't accept anything but what you want though. They have no case given the pats could simply say, they were breaking company policy, by badmouthing and trashing not only a co-worker, but a boss.

What agenda? I'm saying that if I'm one of the two suspended employees, with text messages, phone calls, and personal meetings with Tom Brady discussing the matter, I'm suing the team for suspending me. I don't see how that is an agenda. That's common sense. I'm not going to lose my job for doing something that the marquee player on the team told me to do. Hell no.

If the team wants to turn around and make my dismissal all about badmouthing Brady, let them. I highly doubt that is the reason for their suspension. If it wasn't what they were originally told, they should sue the team.

Well yeah, I'm not saying the NFL suspended them. Yesterday it was leaked that the NFL asked the Patriots to suspend the two employees right away which seemed like a curious decision by the Pats since they claimed they were innocent.

Those two will be the fall guys for the organization. Brady already played the whole clueless card, and lied about knowing who the guys were, having met them, having talked to them, etc. The NFL cleared up they never asked for the suspensions because they don't want the Patriots to blame them for closing ranks.

 

[Megalosaro]

What agenda? I'm saying that if I'm one of the two suspended employees, with text messages, phone calls, and personal meetings with Tom Brady discussing the matter, I'm suing the team for suspending me. I don't see how that is an agenda. That's common sense. I'm not going to lose my job for doing something that the marquee player on the team told me to do. Hell no.

If the team wants to turn around and make my dismissal all about badmouthing Brady, let them. I highly doubt that is the reason for their suspension. If it wasn't what they were originally told, they should sue the team.



Those two will be the fall guys for the organization. Brady already played the whole clueless card, and lied about knowing who the guys were, having met them, having talked to them, etc. The NFL cleared up they never asked for the suspensions because they don't want the Patriots to blame them for closing ranks.

Is Massachusetts an at will employment state? Besides, they aren't fired. they are indefinitely suspended.