This is where I stand on the issue. The LGBT community wanted the police there (which they regard as amicable) and the local BLM pretty much fucked things up for both of those groups.
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Toronto Councillors Want to Deny Pride Funding Over Police Ban
- Thread starter CazTGG
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This is where I stand on the issue. The LGBT community wanted the police there (which they regard as amicable) and the local BLM pretty much fucked things up for both of those groups.
Spring-Loaded
Member
"Better than the U.S. police" is not a meaningful metric
If BLM protesters in Toronto have reason to want to exclude police from the parade, then that's an opportunity for the police and city councillors to engage in some self-reflection and introspection, rather than throw a hissy fit.
If the police in Toronto do nothing worse to citizens than exclude them from parades (in a peaceful way, no less), then this motion to defund Pride Toronto is reasonable. Otherwise, it's petty and pathetic, and they're squandering an opportunity to build faith and trust in people who apparently have good reasons to distrust them.
Standards of decency are always brought up for BLM protests the world over, but proportionately so little blame is placed on pathetic motions like this one
If BLM protesters in Toronto have reason to want to exclude police from the parade, then that's an opportunity for the police and city councillors to engage in some self-reflection and introspection, rather than throw a hissy fit.
If the police in Toronto do nothing worse to citizens than exclude them from parades (in a peaceful way, no less), then this motion to defund Pride Toronto is reasonable. Otherwise, it's petty and pathetic, and they're squandering an opportunity to build faith and trust in people who apparently have good reasons to distrust them.
Standards of decency are always brought up for BLM protests the world over, but proportionately so little blame is placed on pathetic motions like this one
I think it's more "if you're inclusive, then back it up."
So more black representation, and the issues faced. I appreciate you helping me understand.
It just feels like infighting and taking your eyes off the real reason that shit exists in the first place. But I can understand the frustration.
Yes, the ones that I know want to show up in uniform. It demonstrates that the organisation is inclusive and progressive and changing.
The Toronto police (which are not Ontario Provincial Police btw) are upset because, as I understand it, they have had positive experiences in past parades and built relationships in the community (which is huge progress given the history with the gay community) and now they are punted out.
I get that traditionally marginalised groups may hate institutions for systemic biases and agree that serious work needs to be undertaken to eliminate those biases. What I don't get is how excluding an institution that wants to take part in that marginalised group's event and support them leads to any progress. If anything, it reduces dialogue and entrenches views.
And what is the endgame? When would police be allowed back?
This is ALL I'm saying. Thank you. Jumping to say "Ohhh BLM fucked up" is to completely discount black people's experiences and opinions, which are 100% as valid as those of the police and the pride community.
Hey, I appreciate the chill exchange.
So "fuck everyone else until we're satisfied", right?
I'm not here feeling sorry for the police. They're not blameless in this. But there's got to be a better way to handle this than holding a middle finger to their face and telling them to get out of the room, someone else's room that they're welcome in, no discussion allowed.
This is the way it goes with all minority struggles. As LGBTQ people gain acceptance in society their issues are co-opted into mainstream politics. Your average white gay Torontonian has nothing to fear from the police in 2017, so there is a temptation to leave queer POC behind. That's what the police want, that's what the city council wants.
BLM is 100% in the right here. Police are fucking with black people, including queer black people, and black people's former allies are getting folded into the mainstream.
All that said Pride is not the radical movement it once was. Shit is sponsored by banks these days. Which is fine for the banks and for white LGBTQ but it leaves POC LGBTQ in the cold.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Police need to show some receipts if they want the invite. They'll be invited back when they stop profiling.
Ehh, it kinda becomes "well maybe if you protest the right way..." and that can't really fly lol
excelsiorlef
Member
Only because Pride has lost its purpose... Only because intersectionality goes out the window pretty damn fast when a certain level of "equality" has been achieved
Gotdatmoney
Member
Miss me with that bullshit. Black people shouldn't have to advocate for themselves to be treated like normal people so if they are mad they have every right to be. And the police should actually address those concerns instead of dodging them. And a police uniform is not a race, its clothing with societal power. They can take that off whenever they want.
The spirit of pride is not a street party with floats. I can't even believe people are arguing that.
I don't think the institution of policing is entitled to a float at an LGBT parade especially when that institution is responsible for marginalizing members of the LGBT community who already receive little no visibility by the same community even. but whatever cause Police Floats Matter
excelsiorlef
Member
The spirit of Pride is not rolling out the red carpet for people who target some of your most vulnerable members...
Good lord invoking the spirit of pride in this case is flat out disgusting.
Who the do you think BLM is partially made up of? Spoilers a lot of Queer folks of colour.
You do know that, however anyone may disagree with what BLM TO did, was entirely in spirit with the rebellious roots that Pride Toronto began with in the 80s? That aside, are you honestly trying to frame this as the police for being the group that's oppressed because they don't get a float as opposed to the black or LGBTQ communities of Toronto?
oreomunsta
Banned
This is the best way of putting it, I'd say
you should be directing your anger and disappointment at the city council for being spiteful
I can agree with that. Hopefully they'll have made enough progress to BLM's metric to be included next year.
I wouldn't ever use the term oppressed to describe any action against the police.
Respectfully, this may warrant some reassessment as to why
Its all about advertising diversity and inclusiveness and how accepting you can be of gays and...not much else, as I hear it spoken. Not about standing up for equality and taking pride in self. Just a party ya'll, floats, boas, everyone loves everyone for 12 hours.
I'm a tad confused. You link to an article about Halifax police but comment that the Ontario Provincial Police have a bad rep across the country even though they only police Ontario.
I'm giving the article a read but can you rephrase what you said? That doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Have you looked up whether these "better ways" have been tried before, and then looked up the results?
Why would you ever criticize these protesters who made the decision to peacefully convince Pride Toronto to keep police presence out of a single paradewithout first thoroughly criticizing the wrongdoing of the police? It sounds absurd when you in any way equate both sides, or say "shitty situation all around," when one side is an institution abusing their powers and disproportionately targeting the other with government backing, and the other is ... a disparate group of people who happen to share an unfairly targeted skin color, and are protesting against the aforementioned targeting.
Directly weighing their "transgression" against those of the police looks ridiculous.
Hey, yeah, I think someone else posted an Ontario-specific link. What I'm saying is that if it's a problem in Halifax, it's a problem in Toronto; the whole country knows how brutal OPP can be.
excelsiorlef
Member
It's why I have zero interest... it always felt like once it stopped being about the fight it became about putting on a show for straight cis folk to watch and be entertained by, kinda how Gay Bars frequently become places for straight folk to do some gay tourism...
One of our most famous gay clubs just stopped being a gay club after a while lol.
City council is pretty much a dump full of career politicians who are completely unqualified for politics on any level. People who could never get their foot in the door of provincial or federal politics.
I can't wait until the next municipal election. It'll be my first since moving into the city. My vote probably won't make a difference, but fuck Tory and crew are dense motherfuckers.
Gotdatmoney
Member
For those who believe this isn't the way, please do tell, the correct way. I personally would like to be enlightened.
I don't see why they wouldn't just show up and celebrate as regular people who are part of or in support of the LGBTQ community. The parade is about the LGBTQ community over anything else.
I personally think that the police attending sends an important message to the country that the LGBTQ community should be respected but if they truly care about the LGBTQ community they should respect their wishes. They can show support for Pride in other ways without being in the parade, some ways that would probably be far more beneficial too.
The fact this denial of funding is even an idea that's being floated kind of shows that the Police/City just wanted to be in the parade because it makes them look good and not because they actually respect these people though.
Ah, okay, I thought that's what you meant but I just wanted clarification.
And for the record, I agree. We might not be the US but we still have police issues nationwide.
John Tory's not too knowledgeable on systemic racism nor does he particularly care about Toronto's black community: He backed off banning carding, a practice which disproportionately targets minorities including black Torontonians and (pre-mayor) said that people complaining over a sports player dressing up in blackface was "ridiculous".
As for the next election and your vote, it's worth noting that Tory is likely going to be re-elected in 2018 given his current approval ratings.
Oh, I'm aware that John Tory's only redeeming quality is that he isn't Doug Ford. I also know he's going to get reelected. In city politics the incumbent is almost always guaranteed to win. I'm still gonna vote for someone else.
I'm not going to say I know a better way. But at the same time all I see is growing resentment between all three sides, so this way has yet to prove itself.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
This is worse than kicking the police out LOL. When does the chain reaction of people doing dumb shit stop?
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
That's pretty damn petty of them.
capitalCORN
Member
Considering what a revenue maker Pride week is, this sounds like a suicide mission.
Earthbound64
Banned
That's pretty messed up.
yeah i know right the way black people are treated by police is indeed quite messed up
The OPP mainly police outside of the major cities in rural areas. Toronto has its own police.
Edit: I am not saying that the Toronto Police are great. Just that they are a different organization.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Oh I"m aware.
New flash for people that seem to have missed it. Black people and the police have been beefing since fucking ever. It's not some new development we are talking about. But the onus is not of minorities to bow down and let the institution of power have their way. It's not just POC who wanted this. It was LGBT POC. Their opinions are not illigitimate just because it makes some people mad.
If they wanted the police in the parade I would be fine with it. But if they don't you don't get to down play it because "it's not working". Yeah because all the other wonderful ideas people have (not) pitched are right?
excelsiorlef
Member
It was black queer folk actually remembering what spirit of the pride meant and fighting for their rights... it's not messed up, it's what fucking Pride has always supposed to have been.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
It was planned and agreed to by the organizers BTW. It's to help spread the awareness of racism in/against the LGBTQ community.
Earthbound64
Banned
Nevermind
excelsiorlef
Member
They were black queer folk
And I saw your post (before the edit) using an out of context quote to argue that BLM co-opted LGBT movement...
yanipheonu
Member
This really doesn't seem like an issue that can be solved with withholding money.
The two sides need to, yknow, negotiate.
Tho I appreciate how unreasonable Canada's BLM can be. A threat to funding at least could be a bargaining chip?
No outcome to this is going to be clean.
The two sides need to, yknow, negotiate.
Tho I appreciate how unreasonable Canada's BLM can be. A threat to funding at least could be a bargaining chip?
No outcome to this is going to be clean.
...as I posted earlier, Toronto's police have a discrimination problem.
I agree, their demands should have been met years ago. Good on them for getting something done about that and keeping the spirit of Pride alive and well!
Off-topic but the way I see it, the only possibility that could lead to him not being re-elected is he doesn't get elected is if he finds a way to circumvent Wynne's decision on implementing tolls and Mike Layton runs given him being the only councillors people seem to like/know.
Let's add more substance.
FYI - BLM Toronto demands.
Recent changes in policing practice.
From the related links in that article, the province has also changed the rules on carding and is tackling bias in police training provincewide,
"Starting Jan. 1, 2017, race is prohibited for being any part of a police officers reason for attempting to collect someones identifying information.
Police must tell people they have a right not to talk with them, and refusing to co-operate or walking away cannot then be used as reasons to compel information."
For whatever it is worth, the police have been saying they are willing to talk with any community that wants to discuss solutions, but BLM Toronto says they haven't been able to get a meeting.
FYI - BLM Toronto demands.
Recent changes in policing practice.
From the related links in that article, the province has also changed the rules on carding and is tackling bias in police training provincewide,
"Starting Jan. 1, 2017, race is prohibited for being any part of a police officers reason for attempting to collect someones identifying information.
Police must tell people they have a right not to talk with them, and refusing to co-operate or walking away cannot then be used as reasons to compel information."
For whatever it is worth, the police have been saying they are willing to talk with any community that wants to discuss solutions, but BLM Toronto says they haven't been able to get a meeting.
Honestly, I wish we had a NeoGAF member of the TPS in this thread so we could press him or her on exactly what the police intend on doing to improve things.
I don't mean that in a "hearing both sides" way, I mean that in getting it from the horse's mouth rather than from vague media releases way.
Prax
Member
What a mess.
What's done is done, but I think they should continue Pride funding.
Have Police and BLM strike a deal or at least continue talks.
Maybe not police floats in 2017, but some officers marching in uniform intermingled is fine.
2018 continued planning, hopefully floats for all.
What's done is done, but I think they should continue Pride funding.
Have Police and BLM strike a deal or at least continue talks.
Maybe not police floats in 2017, but some officers marching in uniform intermingled is fine.
2018 continued planning, hopefully floats for all.
Noted, thank you
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