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[H_Prestige]

Are you talking about the DSWare transfer to a 3DS? They had to put that system since originally WiiWare and DSWare weren't transferable between devices, Sony already said that you can use your PSP PSN games on the Vita without additional fees.

Yeah, I was wondering what these people were talking about. Where does Nintendo allow you to freely download a retail game you own?

 

[mattp]

if they really do have a unique ID burned into those umds, and a database containing them all on the backend
then it should have been like the most trivial, simple thing ever to have just made registering these things on psn so fucking simple and available the day psp go launched

this is weird. i guess we'll find out soon enough what the deal actually is

 

[muu]

In the press release version they definitely DO say that each UMD can only be used for the download program once. Famitsu's for example. I figured this wasn't the case since each company was charging different amounts, considering this is possible we should be looking at a standard service fee of 300-500yen per disc, not some random number in between.

 

[UncleSporky]

The PSP hardware has been hacked wide open. Any theoretical ID database would be compromised immediately.

To get what you are saying safely with 100% identification would probably require you to mail your UMD in to Sony as a trade in.

Explain how it is compromised.

How would you be able to register the same game multiple times? Remember, you don't have direct access to their servers or database, only access to hardware on your end.

If you tried to pass their database an invalid ID, they'd know it. If you passed them a duplicate ID, they'd know it.

Or is your answer just going to be "trust me, it's all hacked, there's definitely a way?"

 

[Michan]

Plus the fact PSP hardware is essentially cracked wide open so that software digital signature is probably ineffective.

A hash combined with a salt (stored only on Sony's side) would randomise things to the degree of it being almost impossible (one in 4.16470721 × 10^89 for 50 alphanumeric characters) to guess by chance, especially considering Sony's servers would quickly notice any suspicious activity.

That's just an entry security layer.

 

[duckroll]

Plus the fact PSP hardware is essentially cracked wide open so that software digital signature is probably ineffective.

The PSP hardware has been hacked wide open. Any theoretical ID database would be compromised immediately.

To get what you are saying safely with 100% identification would probably require you to mail your UMD in to Sony as a trade in.

I'm really not sure what you mean here. Yes, the PSP is totally cracked wide open, but so what? What Sony is doing here is that they will release a software where you login with your PSN account, and then the software reads the UMD in your PSP, and registers that with your PSN account. That's all it does. Are there UMD burners out there that would compromise this? If not I don't see how it matters.

 

[AranhaHunter]

Just saw the list, HSG2 is 5 bucks, I would definitely pay that instead of the 20 or whatever it is at the ps store now. That is the best portable game on my psp collection.

Some missing publishers from that list:

- Take 2/Rockstar
- EA
- Activision

Actually, the only western publisher on board seems to be ubisoft. All the more reason to believe SCEA won't do jack shit.

 

[Shig]

Expecting they'd work out a way to transfer for free was a tad unrealistic after their "PSP games on UMD? Too bad, rebuy them from PSN" non-solution for the Go. Now you can rebuy them at a discount, at least.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Greedy PoS. I've already bought your games. Pissing off your clients is always a bad idea.

And Sony?. How much is Sony charging for the "right" to re-purchase their own PSP games to play them on the Vita?.

Yep, you've bought their UMD games for your PSP system. You're not entitled to be able to play those on your PS Vita system for free. You weren't even thinking about that when you bought them, probably. If you're pissed off about it, you can use the option they're giving you, or keep using the product you bought as it was intended.

You paid a price for a product and used it as it was intended, and now expect its utility to be magically extended for no additional cost. Who's being greedy?

 

[deathkiller]

If you want to play your PSP games on the PSV, they do force you to pay them, or else you can't.

Unless you brought the game on the PSN, in that case you don't have to pay anything.

The main point of why you have to pay is that you aren't "transferring" the game but creating a copy that can be played at the same time as the original. Sell the original if you don't want it anymore.

 

[duckroll]

In the press release version they definitely DO say that each UMD can only be used for the download program once. Famitsu's for example. I figured this wasn't the case since each company was charging different amounts, considering this is possible we should be looking at a standard service fee of 300-500yen per disc, not some random number in between.

I already explained why it is not a standard service fee. Sony only managed to get publishers on board for this scheme with the promise of being able to sell more digital content. This is not a "favor" publishers are doing for their loyal fans. They're not interested in that. If it was a favor, you would basically have 0 third party publishers signing up for this.

The reality is that Sony cannot enforce anything, because ultimately when publishers signed up as PSP licensees to sell games for the PSP in retail, it is different from the agreements they sign to sell games on PSN. The retail game and the digital license are considered different products, and as such they will never agree to give it away for free or at a nominal fee.

 

[Kaltagesta]

Wow, so up to 15 bucks to download a game you already own ? Which'll probably drop even lower just to purchase just after the Vita drops. Great plan Sony

It'd cost me more to pay the download fee than to buy the UMD.

Well, you do still own the UMD and, presumably, the original means you had to play it. You can still play it in the way you original purchased it. If you don't think the option to play it on another system is worth your money, that's fine, but I certainly don't think Sony should feel obligated to do more than they're doing now.

 

[H_Prestige]

Unless you brought the game on the PSN, in that case you don't have to pay anything.

The main point of why you have to pay is that you aren't "transferring" the game but creating a copy that can be played at the same time as the original. Sell the original if you don't want it anymore.

This is a good point.

 

[theBishop]

If its $10-15 for a "transfer", this is no charity on Sonys part. You're buying the game again at a discount. I'm happy there's some kind of program, but I'm puzzled by the posts suggesting that this will be abused. You're giving sony more money. They want your money.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Except they can't, because Sony can track whether UMDs have been registered or not.

http://andriasang.com/comyxt/

Since they have the capability to make each UMD only register-able once, there's no reason to charge for it.

Are you sure they actually do?

 

[UntoldDreams]

Explain how it is compromised.

How would you be able to register the same game multiple times? Remember, you don't have direct access to their servers or database, only access to hardware on your end.

If you tried to pass their database an invalid ID, they'd know it. If you passed them a duplicate ID, they'd know it.

Or is your answer just going to be "trust me, it's all hacked, there's definitely a way?"

Hmm... Fair enough its possible they could have burned a unique "one-time pad" encryption into each UMD which would have made it theoretically impossible to crack.

I certainly cannot say "its not possible" because its possible.
(Look up one-time pad on wikipedia. I have implemented such algorithms at my work.)
(Although brute force server attacks are still possible)

*** I think my standpoint was based on the fact that its unlikely Sony has placed such an encryption in place because if it existed they should have used the one-time pad already to help lock down the PSP system in the first place.

That being said, if we assume such a 100% lock down is possible...
** It still doesn't mean Ubisoft or any other publisher is going to be okay with giving out digital copies of their games for free. You bought a UMD not a digital copy + UMD.

 

[Michan]

Think of it in another way...
Based on your argument, (3DS supports 3DS and DS/i games), then obviously PS3 should support PS3 games, right?

That means, I should be able to go buy(or borrow) a copy of Battlefield 3(retail) right now, and EXPECT Sony to offer a free digital download. Which would then allow me to go sell/trade-in my retail copy of Battlefield3, and still be able to play the game.

Basically, isn't that what you're asking for right now?

I'm not sure what you're argument is here? Many games (especially PC games) already include "digital copies" (real-world non-marketing terms: permission to install software to your harddrive). In fact, I'm pretty sure you can install games to your harddrive on both 360 and PS3 with a checksum (the disc), which would be exactly the same as Sony installing the PSP software onto your Vita with a checksum (approved PSN ID with that software permitted as "installed").

Let me shut down your dreams.

Is not the same. You transfer your settings and you DIGITAL license for software and music. You didn't pay for a digital license for your UMDs.

License issues man. Is not that hard to understand. Not all publishers are cool with giving away free digital licenses for retail products.

What? Ripping UMDs....easily open for abuse.

You're not and you did not.

You didn't buy a digital license with your UMDs. Fact.

The above also applies to you.

The solution Sony has for BC is, "We'll put lots of our PSP games onto our Store for download. If you already own the game, then let's have a look at your disc. If it's not been registered yet, we'll give you a discount."

You're thinking as if this is the only answer to the question of backwards compatibility.

It doesn't have to be a "download any time" solution that you pay for. It could just as easily be an "install to HD" solution that Sony does in store, at their HQ, or you do yourself and is checked against their servers. Again, see 360/PS3.

This method is simply more profitable for Sony, and I remain surprised that people support it.

 

[krae_man]

I wonder if Plus subscribers will get free transfer of Sony published games.

 

[test_account]

It's lovely that PS3 supports PS1 games, but I wouldn't be angry if it didn't.

When a new generation arrives, many genres are lacking. Some series don't have a new instalment. Having a solid library of software without extra clutter under your TV or in your pocket/bag is nice, especially in the day where your phone also plays music, films, and games.

Sure, it is individual how much each person care about it and expect something. And i'm not arguing against that BC is nice to have. BC is very nice to have indeed But it is not something that should always be expected in my opinion. There can be logical reasons for why BC wont happen (like with the Vita since it doesnt have a UMD drive).

There are many functions of a console that cost money to build and/or manufacture/ship. Not just things included as hardware, but also as software, or accessories. The platform holder will also pay for exclusive software, and for hands-on marketing campaigns, and for all softs of other things, in hope that the consumer will consider a purchase.

Backwards compatibility is one of those many things, and one that has unfortunately got the shaft for the first time in more than ten years of launch hardware.

Sure, but it depends if the costs can justify it. To put it on the edge, no comapny wants to invest 100 million dollars to be sure that BC is included, then only to give it away for free. If it is included, then the final pricetag will be higher compared to if they didnt do this 100 million dollar investment. Stuff like this isnt given away for free.

I think that is what the discussion was mostly about, if people want to pay for BC, like to have 2 seperate models, one with BC that cost more (to pay for the production costs around having BC).

 

[lowrider007]

There was one built-in for the DS though to support GBA games, right ? Still they could - and given how some react around here I fear people wouldn't mind it - demand a fee to activate backwards compatibility.

(Did they actually build in some chips from the DS for backwards compatibility ?)

You mean the slot that they dropped in the DSi/XL?, Do you honestly think they would of dropped backwards compatibility support if the GBA cartridges could of used the same slot as the DS cartridges?, I don't think so, fact is having the extra slot was an extra expense and changes the aesthetics of the system so Nintendo dropped it.

Also where is my free downloadable copy of my GBA games to play on my DSi/xl/3ds?

Oh wait, there are non.

Did we know this in 2005 ? 2006 ? 2007 ? I think it's legitimate for a customer to demand backwards compatibility that's free (or at the very f***ing least doesn't cost a lot).

I still don't get this, why is it legitimate for a costumer to demand that a game which was sold to him or her (without a digital downloadable license I might add) think that they have the right to demand a free copy of that game on a new system?

Seriously this make no sense to me at all how you think your entitled to this.

Would anyone around here be happy if PS4 had no backwards compatibility ? Xbox720 ? Do we know that yet ? Is is really that clear ?

That is a completely different kettle of fish, do I expect my disc based games to be compatible with the PS4?, no I don't, of course I'd like them to be but I certainly don't expect it nor do I feel that I have the right to demand it, but the digital software that I've bought through PSN, that's a different matter, I do expect that to be compatible with the PS4, and I expect to be able to transfer it across for free.[/QUOTE]

 

[H_Prestige]

Do all you guys think it's unfair that PSone classics are not free even though you own the original CD? Ditto for PS2 classics.

 

[RedSwirl]

Just saw the list, HSG2 is 5 bucks, I would definitely pay that instead of the 20 or whatever it is at the ps store now. That is the best portable game on my psp collection.

Some missing publishers from that list:

- Take 2/Rockstar
- EA
- Activision

Actually, the only western publisher on board seems to be ubisoft. All the more reason to believe SCEA won't do jack shit.

Well it IS a Japanese list...

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

The fee is a necessary evil. I'm mostly okay with this but will holding on to my PSP for a while until I've finished all my UMD games.

 

[Michan]

I still don't get this, why is it legitimate for a costumer to demand that a game which was sold to him or her (without a digital downloadable license I might add) think that they have the right to demand a free copy of that game on a new system?

Seriously this make no sense to me at all how you think your entitled to this.

All other entertainment mediums are backwards compatible.

I can listen to a 60s vinyl on my iPod if I want to. Sure, the method of getting it on there may be a little convoluted, but it's available to those who want it.

 

[UntoldDreams]

To be honest...

I think this attitude of "Sony sucks for providing this totally NOT FREE optional service" is exactly why Japan gets this service and we will NOT get this service.

 

[duckroll]

All other entertainment mediums are backwards compatible.

I can listen to a 60s vinyl on my iPod if I want to. Sure, the method of getting it on there may be a little convoluted, but it's available to those who want it.

That's not backward compatibility.

 

[Cipherr]

To be honest...

I think this attitude of "Sony sucks for providing this totally NOT FREE optional service" is exactly why Japan gets this service and we will NOT get this service.

To be more honest, I just would have liked backwards compatibility. Lots of us got blasted for saying "So the Vita isnt backwards compatible" by the same people in this thread right now. Kept talking of this 'solution' Sony was working on. Well now its here, and I gotta pay 15 dollars a pop for a digital version, assuming all of my games are even supported. Thats not BC. So I'm basically back to square one is all, where I'm a little pissed that PSV isn't backwards compatible.

Ill get over it, but I'm still pissed about it, and rightfully so. Its more of a "Sony sucks for not having PSV be backwards compatible with PSP UMD's"

 

[LiK]

That's not backward compatibility.

Indeed, those are ports

 

[AranhaHunter]

I already explained why it is not a standard service fee. Sony only managed to get publishers on board for this scheme with the promise of being able to sell more digital content. This is not a "favor" publishers are doing for their loyal fans. They're not interested in that. If it was a favor, you would basically have 0 third party publishers signing up for this.

The reality is that Sony cannot enforce anything, because ultimately when publishers signed up as PSP licensees to sell games for the PSP in retail, it is different from the agreements they sign to sell games on PSN. The retail game and the digital license are considered different products, and as such they will never agree to give it away for free or at a nominal fee.

QFT. It's just business, and business always look for more ways to bring in revenue and profit. Always.

EDIT:

People are bitching and complaining too much:

- SNES didn't play NES games, N64 didn't play SNES or NES games, GC didn't play N64, SNES, or NES games, new Wii SKU won't play GC games
- X360 doesn't play XBox games unless you buy it again, and only for very specific titles
- Non launch window PS3s don't play PS2 games unless you buy it again, and only for very specific titles

I think this UMD transfer program is a good compromise

 

[rpgb46]

this isn't so bad, better than nothing.

 

[deathkiller]

Do all you guys think it's unfair that PSone classics are not free even though you own the original CD? Ditto for PS2 classics.

A more direct comparison would be why you have to pay for playing PSone classics on the PSP even if you have the original CD. The PSP doesn't have a CD reader and the PS Vita doesn't have a UMD reader. I still think that they should had let owners of PS3s without BC to play PS2 classics for free when they have the DVD on the console.

 

[UntoldDreams]

To be more honest, I just would have liked backwards compatibility. Lots of us got blasted for saying "So the Vita isnt backwards compatible" by the same people in this thread right now. Kept talking of this 'solution' Sony was working on. Well now its here, and I gotta pay 15 dollars a pop for a digital version, assuming all of my games are even supported. Thats not BC. So I'm basically back to square one is all, where I'm a little pissed that PSV isn't backwards compatible.

Ill get over it, but I'm still pissed about it, and rightfully so. Its more of a "Sony sucks for not having PSV be backwards compatible with PSP UMD's"

I can understand that but its not like we expected a UMD drive in the Vita and Sony is far, far, far away from a non-profit charity organization. So its certainly not a surprising outcome that they did not engineer a way to do this for free.

That being said... I would still like the service to make its way over to the WEST but I think its highly unlikely since likely consumer reception would be negative instead of positive.

 

[GloomyHitsuji]

I'm not sure what you're argument is here? Many games (especially PC games) already include "digital copies" (real-world non-marketing terms: permission to install software to your harddrive). In fact, I'm pretty sure you can install games to your harddrive on both 360 and PS3 with a checksum (the disc), which would be exactly the same as Sony installing the PSP software onto your Vita with a checksum (approved PSN ID).

Free "digital copies" certainly isn't the norm. And, when you say permission to install software to your harddrive, it only works if it's the same platform.
Because buying a copy of MW3 in Steam, certainly doesn't allow me to play the game on PS3. (exception to Portal2, etc)

So, how do you stop people from renting/buying a copy of Type-0, quickly register it, and then sell off their UMD?
Because you're asking for 2 concurrently playable copy (for the price of one)

 

[Michan]

That's not backward compatibility.

It's more backwards compatible than this, since the infrastructure is there to do it. You can play a vinyl on your computer today with the right equipment. And you can play a DVD on your BD player.

Free "digital copies" certainly isn't the norm. And, when you say permission to install software to your harddrive, it only works if it's the same platform.
Because buying a copy of MW3 in Steam, certainly doesn't allow me to play the game on PS3. (exception to Portal2, etc)

It only works if it's the same platform because the code only works on that platform. This is software emulation of code you're licensed to play. If all PS3 games were emulated 360 games, there would be a problem.

So, how do you stop people from renting/buying a copy of Type-0, quickly register it, and then sell off their UMD?
Because you're asking for 2 concurrently playable copy (for the price of one)

That's for Sony to figure out. You can do a similar thing with PC games. It's kind of an asshole move, but people try to get away with it.

 

[Michan]

Edit: double post

 

[duckroll]

It's more backwards compatible than this, since the infrastructure is there to do it. You can play a vinyl on your computer today with the right equipment. And you can play a DVD on your BD player.

Yes and in the future no doubt you would be able to use PSP games you have ripped from your own UMDs with emulators and whatnot. What you do with stuff you own is your own right. It doesn't mean that the people who sell you an iPod also specifically implement day-1 built-in schemes for you to transfer your vinyl onto it. Think about that.

 

[Michan]

Yes and in the future no doubt you would be able to use PSP games you have ripped from your own UMDs with emulators and whatnot. What you do with stuff you own is your own right. It doesn't mean that the people who sell you an iPod also specifically implement day-1 built-in schemes for you to transfer your vinyl onto it. Think about that.

The people who sell you an iPod also specifically implemented day-1 built-in schemes for you to transfer your CDs onto it.

 

[duckroll]

The people who sell you an iPod also specifically implemented day-1 built-in schemes for you to transfer your CDs onto it.

Yes, but what about vinyl?

 

[test_account]

Regarding the 1 UMD pr. PSN account, could this simply mean that if you have more than one PSN account, then you need 2 UMDs (or using the same UMD two times of course) if you want the PSP games on both the PSN accounts?

 

[Curufinwe]

Why are people OK with paying for what should be after-sales service? Do you not care if your new phone/MP3 player doesn't play any music other than what you purchase on it?

If this should be standard after-sales service, then you must be expecting that when the new Xbox is released we will be able to put in our 360 discs and then be automatically granted a license to the digital version of the game.

 

[duckroll]

Regarding the 1 UMD pr. PSN account, could this simply mean that if you have more than one PSN account, then you need 2 UMDs (or using the same UMD two times of course) if you want the PSP games on both the PSN accounts?

No. The wording is pretty clear. It says that after you register a UMD with one account, you will be unable to register that UMD with any other account.

 

[yankee666]

In fact, I'm pretty sure you can install games to your harddrive on both 360 and PS3 with a checksum (the disc), which would be exactly the same as Sony installing the PSP software onto your Vita with a checksum (approved PSN ID with that software permitted as "installed") .

So your solution for BC is that every time that i want to play a PSP game i MUST turn on the PSP with the UMD inside to check with Sony servers my Digital copy installed on the Vita, yeah pretty convenient.....

All other entertainment mediums are backwards compatible.

Really, so Nintendo rip me off for the SNES and NES games on the Wii that i already own on cartridge. Damn you Nintendo. Not counting that maybe i have to pay Nintendo again if i want to have them on the 3DS.
Also the GC wasnt BC, so not all

 

[H_Prestige]

You guys aren't even arguing for backward compatibility. BC isn't "Sony gives you a second copy of a game for free if you already own one". BC is playing that copy you already bought on the next system. Vita was never going to offer that the moment it was announced not to use UMD, same way PSP isn't BC with PS1. Does it have a way for you to play select PS1 games on it? Yes, but it is not BC. There is no official way to run your PS1 CD on the PSP. Same exact situation with Vita and PSP now.

 

[Michan]

Yes, but what about vinyl?

The fact of the matter is that it is backwards compatible with your last 20 years of purchases by design.

As for older than that, Apple needn't create such a device, since there isn't a large market for it anymore. Fortunately, other manufacturers have filled that gap.

 

[fernoca]

Though it wouldn't surprise if it's just PR wording or PR scare tactics. At least as far as it's known (unless there's some super secret internal coding on each UMD); there's no "secret code" inside each UMD that allows Sony to magically track a disc and therefore make it impossible to be used in another PSP.

Basically, 5 people, with 5 different accounts, can each pay the fee, put the disc and get that game for that fee. But, is obvious that Sony is not going to say it on a press release much less officially confirm it. It's one of those things that, if anything come launch of the Vita we'll get to know more.

Maybe they do have a way to track them; but if they don't is not something that will openly say; in the end everyone has to pay a fee. So if that means 5 people paying $10 each to own a digital copy of Type 0 (or something) with just 1 UMD; that's $40 more than just one person paying a fee.

 

[lowrider007]

The fact of the matter is that it is backwards compatible with your last 20 years of purchases by design..

An ipod is not backwards compatible with CD.

 

[Curufinwe]

An ipod is not backwards compatible with CD.

And a CD player is not backwards compatible with vinyl.

 

[test_account]

No. The wording is pretty clear. It says that after you register a UMD with one account, you will be unable to register that UMD with any other account.

Ah ok, i see.

The fact of the matter is that it is backwards compatible with your last 20 years of purchases by design.

As for older than that, Apple needn't create such a device, since there isn't a large market for it anymore. Fortunately, other manufacturers have filled that gap.

It is fortunately much easier to port streaming/static entertainment over to something else. You dont need a device that can play VHS tapes to watch that particular video because it is easy just to copy that stream over to something else (of course you need a device that can play the VHS tape to begin with, but that is just a one time process to do the transfering of the video).

The same goes for music and pictures as well. But with interactive entertainment like games, then it is much harder. Then you need to make an emulator of some sort that lets you interact with the entertainment on another system that the game first wasnt intended for. It isnt as simple as just copy a stream or something static (like pictures).

Though it wouldn't surprise if it's just PR wording or PR scare tactics. At least as far as it's known (unless there's some super secret internal coding on each UMD); there's no "secret code" inside each UMD that allows Sony to magically track a disc and therefore make it impossible to be used in another PSP.

Basically, 5 people, with 5 different accounts, can each pay the fee, put the disc and get that game for that fee. But, is obvious that Sony is not going to say it on a press release much less officially confirm it. It's one of those things that, if anything come launch of the Vita we'll get to know more.

Maybe they do have a way to track them; but if they don't is not something that will openly say; in the end everyone has to pay a fee. So if that means 5 people paying $10 each to own a digital copy of Type 0 (or something) with just 1 UMD; that's $40 more than just one person paying a fee.

Yeah, it can simply be an answer like those copyright messages, that you cant copy that floppy evnthough it is technical possible

 

[Cartman86]

An ipod is not backwards compatible with CD.

But it's backwards compatible with the digital versions of the CD's i've ripped legally to my PC and every other device for free.

I don't expect every medium to have this. However, I expect the ones that can to do it. PSP games are going to be on the Vita store. They are part of the system as anyone who has already purchased there games digitally will have them at no extra cost as the system emulates them wholesale. UMD owners ideally would get the same treatment. Especially if they can deactivate a UMD once it's been registered.. It's not the end of the world, but it still sucks.

 

[H_Prestige]

But it's backwards compatible with the digital versions of the CD's i've ripped legally to my PC and every other device for free.

And the Vita is BC with digital versions of PSP games for free...