Support NeoGAF

[igordennis]

I would understand skepticism if the developer's last game didn't have 4 black characters voiced by 4 black actors/people. They don't deserve the shit for what it's more than likely a creative decision.

This. Its fine to discuss this of course and its a good thing that its being brought to attention but giving ND shit for this is ignoring that they have been perfectly confortable in the past to cast black actors for major roles. I see nothing to believe that this is not a creative decision likely because from the people that they auditioned she was the best fit.

Now using this to engage a conversation why black people have more trouble even getting to these auditions is interesting and another thing entirely that wouldn't really involve ND all that much since there's not much they can do in that case.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

You make the clearest point out of anyone else I've seen in this thread. Most are just throwing up their arms, but you explain the issue very well.

For the bold: Why is it Naughty Dog's job to do this though? From Naughty Dog's side, it's safe to go with a well known VA and risk is something that businesses want to avoid. What incentive to casting directors have to change the status quo?

It has been brought up before in this thread, but it's also worth considering that within Uncharted 4's uneasy development history, ND literally threw out tons of mocap and voice-acting work. It's a reasonable to think that they might have had different intentions for Nadine's vocals/mocap, but in the redo-crunch, they ended going with Laura because of her versatility and well-known skill set. I have no problem with that.

 

[bishoptl]

This. So much this.

I'm actually shocked at some of these responses.

You're shocked? I'm not surprised at all. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Loudninja]

Man so many topics has been a mess this week.

 

[mStudios]

Are people calling this Whitewashing?

lmao

If you ever see the race of those who do different language's subbing, you all would be starting a riot.

 

[Shenmue]

I understand about the voice acting not live acting argument but they could have still gotten a black vo. Look at an animated movie like mulan. Both the male and female protags were voiced by Asian people.

Now if they were looking for a black vo who could do an Australian or west African accent and simply none applied then that's not on them at all.

 

[Slixshot]

Re: the bolded, you should really take a look at the long post on the last page. Its not about forcing minorities into certain buckets, its that the "best fit" is a fallacy considering the opportunities afforded to certain subsets of the industry. Thats where that argument falls apart.

It seems like this is a broader subject than just the voice acting pool though. I understand that there is a small selection of individuals in voice acting who get the majority of the work, but have you seen the world in general? Like, it's hardly EVER how talented you are or "what you know". It's "who you know" that really matters which is what locks out many people from opportunities that they realistically are (over)qualified for.

But in this given situation, Bailey must have been the best of the select group that did audition -- which is not inherently Naughty Dog's problem or fault.

 

[Shaanyboi]

So... Laura Bailey plays Black Widow on our show, so hearing her with this Australian(?) accent is sooo jarring.

 

[Jarmel]

This thread is insane. It's not a big deal for a white actor to VA a black person and vice versa.

 

[Cap'n Cook]

Again, it's less the voice acting that most have problems with and the actual literal acting that makes this an issue. in a film, would you be okay with a white person acting as an asian person? Or a white person acting as a black person in a film (not counting the obvious satirical use of blackface in something like tropic thunder of course)? There's a long and dark history regarding white people playing people of color and this is uncomfortably close to playing into that.

I can kinda swallow it if it was just voice work. It's when it's also actual acting where I find it much more troubling. and it should be, really.

Where are all the complaints for this guy? He tried to pass as Mexican and did a poor job doing so. The moment I saw him I said to myself, that guy ain't Mexican. Then he spoke Spanish and it literally made me laugh, the only thought I had was was that I knew he wasn't Mexican and quickly moved on and enjoyed the hell of the rest of the show.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

The people who are against Laura Bailey either dont understand people that you sound like where you grew up not your skin color, racists, or do not understand that black women dont have to sound ghetto.

Exactly, come on guys, the guys who voices Kratos and Sagat are black, but these characters are not black, it's the perfect voice-fit for the character, not the color of his skin. In any case, all black people don't speak alike, so the best fit should take precedence.

This is so true.

Re: the bolded, you should really take a look at the long post on the last page. Its not about forcing minorities into certain buckets, its that the "best fit" is a fallacy considering the opportunities afforded to certain subsets of the industry. Thats where that argument falls apart.

Best fit isnt a fallacy. The writer and director have a view of what the character looks and sounds like. We all know Spongebob would sound weird with Charles Dance or Snoop Dog's voice because the character was created and crafted around how Tom Kenny voice acts the character.

 

[RipperGrim]

Re: the bolded, you should really take a look at the long post on the last page. Its not about forcing minorities into certain buckets, its that the "best fit" is a fallacy considering the opportunities afforded to certain subsets of the industry. Thats where that argument falls apart.

It doesn't fall apart, if she does a good job then that's that. People can try and disguise it but what they are really arguing for is having the voice actor be be black because the character is black.

I can guarantee if we didn't know Laura Bailey was voicing this character this thread would have been a few pages long talking about how awesome the graphics are. Race should never be a reason to hire someone unless they are acting a specific role and this VA work so it's not necessary.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Where are all the complaints for this guy? He tried to pass as Mexican and did a poor job doing so. The moment I saw him I said to myself, that guy ain't Mexican. Then he spoke Spanish and it literally made me laugh, the only thought I had was was that I knew he wasn't Mexican and quickly moved on and enjoyed the hell of the rest of the show.

how does another wrong make this right? As a hispanic myself im well aware of how terrible hollywood is at portraying the many ethnicities and nationalities, cultures and dialects that make up the entire latino community. That doesn't make this any more right nor does that make that any less wrong.

we should be striving for more accurate portrayals of all races and ethnicities, not point at other lapses of judgment to justify future errors.

 

[Loudninja]

Topic has run its course now.

Going in complete circles.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Graphics look so good

 

[Ran rp]

yes i am disappointed because laura bailey doesn't sound ghetto

christ

 

[firehawk12]

Graphics look so good

http://s15.postimg.org/m123vu0t7/vlcsnap_2015_12_04_13h56m36s227.png
http://s15.postimg.org/xwf795biz/vlcsnap_2015_12_04_13h49m54s151.png
http://s15.postimg.org/z8wwb18yj/vlcsnap_2015_12_04_13h52m35s219.png

I still think the clothes look off. lol

 

[PBY]

It seems like this is a broader subject than just the voice acting pool though. I understand that there is a small selection of individuals in voice acting who get the majority of the work, but have you seen the world in general? Like, it's hardly EVER how talented you are or "what you know". It's "who you know" that really matters which is what locks out many people from opportunities that they realistically are (over)qualified for.

But in this given situation, Bailey must have been the best of the select group that did audition -- which is not inherently Naughty Dog's problem or fault.

You need to stop looking at this as "NAUGHTY DOGS FAULT". Not attacking your favorite game dev or Uncharted, or whatever. Don't really care, and not here to ascribe fault.

Just pointing out a potentially problematic thing, which has history in the entertainment industry. There's value in discussing issues like these so we can collectively move forward as a society

 

[firehawk12]

You need to stop looking at this as "NAUGHTY DOGS FAULT". Not attacking your favorite game dev or Uncharted, or whatever. Don't really care, and not here to ascribe fault.

Just pointing out a potentially problematic thing, which has history in the entertainment industry. There's value in discussing issues like these so we can collectively move forward as a society

It's particularly interesting in voice acting because it was traditionally such an invisible industry. Basically before Robin Williams did Aladdin, no one cared who the voiced cartoons and the like. Heck, I bet the average person has no idea who Nolan North is.

 

[gamerMan]

Not to take anything away from the brilliance of this amazing game and what Naughty Dog has accomplished, I can totally see why people are upset by the casting choice. Honestly, people have a right to be upset and disappointed and nobody should try to dismiss their claims. This is an institutional problem. Audiences have a right to demand more authenticity. It's their right.

In the past when the majority race played minority roles, they were often racist portrayals, often mocking the race. I'm pretty sure this is not the case here, but it does sound like someone trying to do an accent. This happens a lot in Hollywood as well and there is usually a much larger protest and uproar. It just shows how much the voice over industry in video games has to grow as many companies are using a small pool of actors that they are familiar with.

The BBC actually did a piece on this regarding why it is still happening in Hollywood: When White Actors Play Other Races

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It doesn't fall apart, if she does a good job then that's that. People can try and disguise it but what they are really arguing for is having the voice actor be be black because the character is black.

I'm curious if the conversation would be the same if Nadine was voiced by another minority other than one of African descent, be it Asian, Hispanic or otherwise. Would it be alright if say, Lauren Tom voiced Nadine?

 

[Meaty]

It has been brought up before in this thread, but it's also worth considering that within Uncharted 4's uneasy development history, ND literally threw out tons of mocap and voice-acting work. It's a reasonable to think that they might have had different intentions for Nadine's vocals/mocap, but in the redo-crunch, they ended going with Laura because of her versatility and well-known skill set. I have no problem with that.

Yeah, Im willing to give ND the benefit of the doubt that they simply did not have time to do a proper casting and went with an actress they just knew.


ND had a good track record with marlene and henry/sam so Im willing to let this pass.

I mean, nothing wrong about casting a white woman as a black character, but the point people made on this thread about the actor pool being limited is very valid, I just think in this case they were in quite a rush.

 

[firehawk12]

I'm curious if the conversation would be the same if Nadine was voiced by another minority other than one of African descent, be it Asian, Hispanic or otherwise. Would it be alright if, I dunno, Lauren Tom voiced Nadine?

In an American context, you probably want to have correct representation.

I mean, let's face it, in Japan every character in the game is going to be dubbed by a Japanese voice actor. But that's something that's just unavoidable. This is something that they have control over.

 

[Shenmue]

Wow I never knew Ms. Bailey voiced 90 Asian women. Wtf is up with that? That's an even bigger issue.

Before anyone says this has nothing to do with having an english as a second language accent or anything. There are established Asian VAs and Asian VAs looking for work and yet this happens?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

It's truly disappointing the comments in the thread. Some of you guys just don't even want this conversation to happen. Using every excuse in the book and dumb analogies.

 

[Slixshot]

You need to stop looking at this as "NAUGHTY DOGS FAULT". Not attacking your favorite game dev or Uncharted, or whatever. Don't really care, and not here to ascribe fault.

Just pointing out a potentially problematic thing, which has history in the entertainment industry. There's value in discussing issues like these so we can collectively move forward as a society

Replace Naughty Dog with "The Developer" or "the casting directors". I don't care who they are. My points still stands. The problem you are pointing out is larger than voice acting and that's what I was trying to say in my previous post.

There is definitely value in discussing the issue -- because it is an issue -- but this thread is titled "Uncharted 4 New Character Trailer: Nadine Ross (Laura Bailey)" and the discussion should be about the content of the thread which is:
1. the trailer
2. the character and her voice actress

If we want to talk about the voice acting talent pool, we should make a new thread entitled "Voice Acting Talent and it's lack of variety" and have a bunch of info in the OP regarding the lack of diversity, examples, stats, and discussion on how difficult it is to get into the industry if you're not already in it. You seem VERY interested in the subject, so make the topic and bring even more attention to the subject. That feels like it would be more valuable than diluting the topic of this thread because now the focus is solely on the problem.

 

[Shenmue]

In an American context, you probably want to have correct representation.

I mean, let's face it, in Japan every character in the game is going to be dubbed by a Japanese voice actor. But that's something that's just unavoidable. This is something that they have control over.

Yup you've hit the nail on the head. We cannot compare the USA (a nation that absolutely prides itself on being a nation of all races) to a country that is essentially homogeneous.

That said, if you follow ex-pat podcasts in Japan, there's actually quite a lot of opportunity for white VAs in Japan. I remember an episode of the Just Japan podcast where they had a female VA (forgot her name unfortunately) and she said that there's actually a shortage and was actually telling the podcast host that he would be great and would easily get a job as a VA in Japan. It's just that the majority of westerners tend to go the English teaching route because it's tried and true and perceived as an easier path.

 

[Meccanical]

You know, Cree Summer has voiced white people before.

Not important, but interesting.

 

[firehawk12]

Wow I never knew Ms. Bailey voiced 90 Asian women. Wtf is up with that? That's an even bigger issue.

Before anyone says this has nothing to do with having an english as a second language accent or anything. There are established Asian VAs and Asian VAs looking for work and yet this happens?

This was Bailey in Binary Domain. I found it weird at the time, but no one cares about Binary Domain so it was never a point of discussion:
https://youtu.be/zOyWwwotapE?t=7m28s

Yup you've hit the nail on the head. We cannot compare the USA (a nation that absolutely prides itself on being a nation of all races) to a country that is essentially homogeneous.

That said, if you follow ex-pat podcasts in Japan, there's actually quite a lot of opportunity for white VAs in Japan. I remember an episode of the Just Japan podcast where they had a female VA (forgot her name unfortunately) and she said that there's actually a shortage and was actually telling the podcast host that he would be great and would easily get a job as a VA in Japan.

Hrm, foreign VAs for non-Japanese roles? Or for actual Japanese parts?

 

[InfiniteCombo]

This thread is insane. It's not a big deal for a white actor to VA a black person and vice versa.

I'm 100% with you.

Where are all the complaints for this guy? He tried to pass as Mexican and did a poor job doing so. The moment I saw him I said to myself, that guy ain't Mexican. Then he spoke Spanish and it literally made me laugh, the only thought I had was was that I knew he wasn't Mexican and quickly moved on and enjoyed the hell of the rest of the show.

LOL! This reminds me of Al Pacino (an Italian American actor) playing Carlito Brigante, a Puerto Rican from East Harlem... His general "Puerto Rican" accent in English was bad enough, but even worse were the (less than 5) lines in Spanish that he had to struggle with... it was really cringeworthy to hear.

 

[DR2K]

You know, Cree Summer has voiced white people before.

Not important, but interesting.

She's mixed. So she's allowed to voice everyone.

 

[PBY]

Replace Naughty Dog with "The Developer" or "the casting directors". I don't care who they are. My points still stands. The problem you are pointing out is larger than voice acting and that's what I was trying to say in my previous post.

There is definitely value in discussing the issue -- because it is an issue -- but this thread is titled "Uncharted 4 New Character Trailer: Nadine Ross (Laura Bailey)" and the discussion should be about the content of the thread which is:
1. the trailer
2. the character and her voice actress

If we want to talk about the voice acting talent pool, we should make a new thread entitled "Voice Acting Talent and it's lack of variety" and have a bunch of info in the OP regarding the lack of diversity, examples, stats, and discussion on how difficult it is to get into the industry if you're not already in it. You seem VERY interested in the subject, so make the topic and bring even more attention to the subject. That feels like it would be more valuable than diluting the topic of this thread because now the focus is solely on the problem.

Well... that's how change happens. This is a high profile game, and the specific trailer relates to a black character. The voice actor is white. I'm discussing that in this context, as representative of broader potential issues.

 

[Shin-Ra]

http://gifyu.com/images/U4_NadineRoss2.gif

Gamersyde quality now.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

I'm an enormous fan of Laura Bailey, love her to death. But they didn't think to hire a black actress to play the character? Come on.

 

[Loudninja]

In the OP bro

 

[orthodoxy1095]

In an American context, you probably want to have correct representation.

I mean, let's face it, in Japan every character in the game is going to be dubbed by a Japanese voice actor. But that's something that's just unavoidable. This is something that they have control over.

So given the hypothetical, you wouldn't want an Asian woman voicing Nadine either? Only a black woman can voice black women? White men can only be white men, black men can only be black men?

I don't buy that really. If anything, you're limiting people even more and creating more barriers. Part of the really neat aspect of voice acting is that a VA's physical appearance or historical background has no bearing on what kind of person they can portray.

 

[Memento]

I dont believe people are still discussing about the supposed "issue"...

Every now and then I enter the thread expecting a real discussion about the actual game and what has been shown...

Silly me.

 

[Shenmue]

This was Bailey in Binary Domain. I found it weird at the time, but no one cares about Binary Domain so it was never a point of discussion:
https://youtu.be/zOyWwwotapE?t=7m28s


Hrm, foreign VAs for non-Japanese roles? Or for actual Japanese parts?

They were saying they actually did both. Of course the majority will be used for parts where English is needed though. This has more to do with a command of the language as well though as they also discussed. Because of how citizenship works in a country like Japan, it's extremely rare to have someone of another race grow up in Japan (most will at least be part Japanese). As a result a fully white, black or hispanic person in Japan will be someone who moved there later in life and as a result is likely to not have as good a command of the language.

That is very different than people in the US where you have lots of minorities who have a perfect command of English (and for many blacks, Asians, and hispanics, English is the only language they know).

P.S. Ah I remembered her name. I think it was Jenny Silver. She also has a youtube channel about her life in Japan.

 

[Slixshot]

I dont believe people are still discussing about the supposed "issue"...

Every now and then I enter the thread expecting a real discussion about the actual game and what has been shown...

Silly me.

Game looks dope. I really like the wrinkles on the clothing

 

[jurgen]

Just pointing out a potentially problematic thing, which has history in the entertainment industry. There's value in discussing issues like these so we can collectively move forward as a society

While I agree that discussions need to be had to move forward in society, "potentially problematic" might be an overstatement when (arguably) the majority of the people who play these games have no idea of the ethnicity of the voice actor or mo-cap actor. Hell, I'd argue that (other than Nolan North) the majority of "hardcore" gamers that would encounter these discussions can't name most of the other actors in the game without looking it up or guessing. A fully developed, well-portrayed minority character on the screen is a net positive that would outweigh the negatives of this problem you're discussing.

 

[firehawk12]

So given the hypothetical, you wouldn't want an Asian woman voicing Nadine either? Only a black woman can voice black women? White men can only be white men, black men can only be black men?

I don't buy that really. If anything, you're limiting people even more and creating more barriers. Part of the really neat aspect of voice acting is that a VA's physical appearance or historical background has no bearing on what kind of person they can portray.

I suppose it becomes a fine line I suppose. Like I don't think anyone has a problem with an older woman playing a teenage girl in The Last of Us, so age isn't something that people think about.

It's just that race, and particularly in acting and entertainment history, is so tied into the racial history of the United States. Forget the idea of black face. When you have Ridley Scott deciding that Moses was a white dude, or M Night deciding that all the main characters from Avatar should be white, and things like that... it's just something that people are going to have some emotions about.

 

[RipperGrim]

I'm curious if the conversation would be the same if Nadine was voiced by another minority other than one of African descent, be it Asian, Hispanic or otherwise. Would it be alright if say, Lauren Tom voiced Nadine?

Hopefully the same as it has gone now? I mean it would be kinda shitty if people were fine with another race other than a white person.

 

[Triggafinga]

First of all, being a black person from Canada, I'm really sensitive to racial issues. What is going on in this thread. I'm so upset that this turned into a "whitewashing topic" All because ND chose to have a black character in their game. Why are we talking about skin colour? Why are we faulting ND? There should be a separate thread about the diversity voice actors. It hurts to see people derail this thread. Kudos to ND for making nuanced black characters.

 

[DeepEnigma]

My goodness the graphics are just jaw dropping. And it goes right into the fight before the cut, such a tease.

 

[firehawk12]

They were saying they actually did both. Of course the majority will be used for parts where English is needed though. This has more to do with a command of the language as well though as they also discussed.

That is very different than people in the US where you have lots of minorities who have a perfect command of English (and for many blacks, Asians, and hispanics, English is the only language they know).

That's interesting. Do you remember what episode number it is that they talk about it?

And I'm sure the excuse used is that the pool of minority actors is much smaller, but I'm sure there's also an element of people using actors that they're just familiar with as well... and we're still at a point, particularly in VA, where most of the big actors a white.

 

[Meccanical]

First of all, being a black person from Canada, I'm really sensitive to racial issues. What is going on in this thread. I'm so upset that this turned into a "whitewashing topic" All because ND chose to have a black character in their game. Why are we talking about skin colour? Why are we faulting ND? There should be a separate thread about the diversity voice actors. It hurts to see people derail this thread. Kudos to ND for making nuanced black characters.

As a black person, I'm pretty tired of people getting offended for me and pushing for equality on my behalf.

But this won't stop anytime soon.

 

[PBY]

First of all, being a black person from Canada, I'm really sensitive to racial issues. What is going on in this thread. I'm so upset that this turned into a "whitewashing topic" All because ND chose to have a black character in their game. Why are we talking about skin colour? Why are we faulting ND? There should be a separate thread about the diversity voice actors. It hurts to see people derail this thread. Kudos to ND for making nuanced black characters.

Appreciate your input. No one is "faulting ND".

I'm sorry if you're taking this discussion as a critique of a game dev/game you love. Its not that. Its pointing out potentially problematic issues.

Guess people don't like having these issues linked to actual examples of the problem? If a mod thinks this discussion is better fit for a general thread thats fine, but I don't see the problem with discussing it here given that the trailer is introducing the character, and these issues are specific to this character.

 

[base shagohod]

As a black person, I'm pretty tired of people getting offended for me and pushing for equality on my behalf.

But this won't stop anytime soon.

^^ I know that feel

Some of y'all need to get a grip and go fight for something else on the internet.

 

[Shenmue]

That's interesting. Do you remember what episode number it is that they talk about it?

Found it. It's episode 40 of that podcast (Just Japan Podcast). It's a great podcast by the way if you are interested about foreigners in Japan. They very rarely have anything about games and anime, although the host used to work in the game industry.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

^^ I know that feel

Some of y'all need to get a grip and go fight for something else on the internet.

Not looking for fight but a discussion. Sorry it's not the one you want.