I don't think your example is comparable. A woman was chosen to voice Bart for various practical reasons, which helped ensure the longevity of the series.
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Uncharted 4 New Character Trailer: Nadine Ross (Laura Bailey)
- Thread starter Loudninja
- Start date
I don't think your example is comparable. A woman was chosen to voice Bart for various practical reasons, which helped ensure the longevity of the series.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
again, what i'm trying to argue against is that this isn't solely voice work. She is also acting as a person of color. At least in the states, this is a controversial thing to do given the racially charged history associated in white people acting as a person of color.
I'm tired of having to push this distinction on people who are unwilling to understand the difference. I'm getting the sense that people are being defensive about this stuff because this is a game from a dev they really like and there's a conflict between whats being done here and the thing they really like
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
You wanna debate fine, but dont try and pull that "you guys love x company thats why you wont admit it". Perhaps people dont see the big deal, it has nothing to do with being naughty dog
Are you really associating blackface with the casting choice? I mean, really?
keltickennedy
Member
What does a "person of color" act like?
InfiniteCombo
Banned
"Various practical reasons", such as...?
By the rationale being used by some in this thread, Bart being not voiced by a 10 year old is no good.
Maybe you have it out for Naughty Dog, and want to criticize every little thing they do.
Wow, did you see how ridiculous that sounded?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Night Angel
Member
I don't see it. Motion capture can be used for a wide variety of things. A person can be an orc, Gollum, an ape, or any other number of fantastical creatures. It can also be used to play a human character that looks nothing like you. Is it strange, then, for someone of another ethnicity or race to mocap a character that is different from them? I don't know why adding performance capture somehow makes this a bigger deal than just VA.
I can see both sides of this situation. While I personally don't think it's wrong to have voice actors play characters of any race, it does speak to the state of the industry that a white person was selected for this character. If it was more of a two way street, I'm sure this wouldn't rub people the wrong way, but because there is such limited opportunity for voice acting people of color (and opportunities for POC to voice act) in games it comes off as odd.
Not that ND did anything wrong or malicious in this instance, but in the larger context of the state of video game VA there is definitely a discussion to be had.
These two things aren't the same.
keltickennedy
Member
Some people must of been really upset at that Darth Vader reveal at the end of Jedi....
Cap'n Cook
Member
I never thought of it as wrong, I just thought of it as bad casting and I only say that because his awful spanish. For all I know he probably didn't have a speaking role when they casted him. And for all we know Nadine probably has some sort of relationship with Sam and since Troy and Laura already have good chemistry that's probably why they casted Laura. Also, the vast majority of people will connect with the character itself and not just the voice behind it. Uncharted is probably my all time favorite video game series and the only VA I know is Nolan North, I love Sully, Elena, Chloe but have no clue who voiced them.
gundamkyoukai
Member
She is acting as character first more that the color of her skin .
Unless you think all black people act the same no matter what country they come from .
Doing motion capture don't mean you have to be the same skin color .
One of great things about motion capture is it allowing you to be anything .
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Holy shit aha! Who could hate stuff like this? Making me wanna go look up voice actors.
*note: you guys should have seen my face when i found out the cast of my favorite cartoon of all time(rugrats) was made mostly of women. I was like waaat!? Such amazing talent.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Puberty?
Pixar didn't cast a woman to play Russell in Up! for example. They cast a male Asian child. But that's because they aren't planning to make Up movies for the next 30 years.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
This perpetuates a long standing issue with minorities and persons of color having difficulties in the entertainment industry. And that's not even mentioning how the particular issue of a white person playing a person of color is highly controversial in film and media at large, especially in the US. There's a history there.
The point im making is that, really, Naughty Dog couldn't find a person of color to do this? Why was it when they decide to sit down and finally make a choice regarding the casting of this character, they went with a white person to play a person of color?
with so many responses in this thread being some variation of hand waving and that ND chose the best actor, it's hard not to feel that this would be more controversial if it had come from a less liked high profile developer
Trigonometrize.
Member
Nevermind
Murder. She Wrote
Member
Am I crazy or do those facial animations look stiff and not good?
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Voice acting is a different beast to me, in the same vein with writing in a sense.
If you can convey an accent, voice and act a certain character, you're good. Live action is different to me cuz it directly involves live bodies, people, actors, you're not just landing a voice to an image you ARE the image. Voice acting, directing, writing shouldn't necessarily call for "skin to skin" matching. And this(VA) "sub-industry" doesnt have the same dark past as Hollywood and Broadway.
However the other issue, of Black and other ethnicity getting opportunities in the entertainment industry is real and diversity in this aspect is important. But taking everything we know in context, thats not what happened here.
If you can convey an accent, voice and act a certain character, you're good. Live action is different to me cuz it directly involves live bodies, people, actors, you're not just landing a voice to an image you ARE the image. Voice acting, directing, writing shouldn't necessarily call for "skin to skin" matching. And this(VA) "sub-industry" doesnt have the same dark past as Hollywood and Broadway.
However the other issue, of Black and other ethnicity getting opportunities in the entertainment industry is real and diversity in this aspect is important. But taking everything we know in context, thats not what happened here.
Pretty common that woman voices younger boys and such in animated shows since there voices are consistent and don't change unlike young boys.
Like what was brought up Nancy (Bart), Masako Nozawa (Goku and his sons) and Tanaka (Luffy)
What blanket accusations am I making?
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
And she does a damn good job!!
Audible Phonetics
Member
This here is the issue.
I think the point many people are missing in this thread is the simple fact that many believe a black VA should of been given the opportunity to voice a black character.
I am not sure in the industry of Voice Acting if people of Afro Decent do not get as many opportunities as Caucasian Voice Actors. But I think there is an assumption, that the same problems that plague other job markets, may be relevant in the gaming sphere. Which is statistically African Americans are at a disadvantage in the work place to their Caucasian counter parts.
Which brings this full circle, many are working under predisposed dispositions to think they used a white VA for the reasons mentioned above.
Practical reasons such as being able to keep the same voice for the character for decades?
Audible Phonetics
Member
The general point is being missed here. The Simpson's comparison doesn't fit this mold since we are taking about race not gender.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Whoa, let's be careful before we take this too far.
One can argue that there's an important difference between:
(1)representative equality, the kind that is being argued for here, which in the case of voice acting doesn't seem to be mandated by law (as far as I know), and
(2)legal equality under a legal government document affecting all its citizens, such as the United States constitution. This is the kind of "fight for your equality" that I think you're referencing in your post.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So are you saying that PoC move their mouths & bodies differently?
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
yes that's exactly what i said.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
People seem to have no concept of how this could massively backfire. "Oh sorry you may look the part, but you don't *sound* black enough. Where's my jive, sucka? Next!" "You're supposed to be Asian. Why do sound like a Britain. Get out!!" "Haha Latinos don't know what a word like "verisimilitude" stands for. Can we get a real chico in the house?"
I mean, look at Steven Universe. Most of the VAs on that show are minorities, but they are not strictly playing characters that line up with their real-life ethnicity. They are also excellent at it. In that case getting the best talent for the job just happened to coincide with most of the best choices being minorities, which accomplishes another goal. However, I can't condone prioritizing that other goal over seeking the best talent absolutely. The good news is that casting directors and employers are beginning to realize that minorities are just as (if not sometimes more) capable as their white counterparts in these various tasks, and any company or employer looking for talent at the end of the day isn't going to dismiss them as a result.
But it should ALWAYS be about seeking the best fit for the job. In this case, for whatever multiple reasons, it's Laura Bailey, who happens to be white. She can't help that. And next time, it could be someone else. Not every casting choice has to be stooped in race y'all.
Also anyone comparing this to cases like that Emma Stone movie or Exodus are in the wrong; those were blatant whitewashing attempts clear as day, with the audacity to think people would play stupid enough to still support them because, hey, it's Emma Stone and whoever was in Exodus worth remembering. This is definitely not in the same league as those, not even close.
Cool. What other eugenics studies do you have for us today?
keltickennedy
Member
Maybe chemistry with the other actors. Laura Bailey has worked with the other talent a bunch of other times.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
You said she is mimicking a person of color. How exactly? Can white women not act a certain way or something?
Always-honest
Banned
Yeah they are a bit off imo.
Storm Raider
Banned
Anyone else kind of dissaponted there seems to be a similar looking black female villian like TLOU?
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Nope she seems awesome to me i like it
Audible Phonetics
Member
It was clear the type of equality he was referring to was the type that was dependent on the color of his skin.
Which is why he said "As a person whose black", and proceeded to make his statement.
I was simply saying his logic was flawed at being tired of people being offended for him.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Well, there are really two points at play here: 1. A white actor is not the best choice to convey a black character (which is a totally whatever point IMO), and 2. That black voice actors forewent for Laura Bailey should be given more opportunity for these roles.
What I see is that this is a weird developer to pick on. The Last of Us, Naughty Dog's latest game, had three black characters whose roles were all filled by black people (I'm pretty sure). If you wanna talk about black actor opportunity, ND does not seem like the ideal choice because of this one instance.
igordennis
Member
No? What TLOU did or did not have should have no bearing on Uncharted 4. They are separate completely different games. And similar looking, really?
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
It's disrespectful to yourself really b/c you're not reading between the lines like I am.
People may not be literally saying that, but there are a good chunk who are implying it through what they are saying. Or to put it another way, it's not hard to extrapolate those ideas based off of other things they have literally said.
Hamster Plugin
Member
No, there aren't enough female villains around. It's a shame that most of the enemies in this game seem to be men again, it makes even less sense with a woman leading them too.
gundamkyoukai
Member
She looks nothing like Marlene IMO.
What if ND wanted Laura Bailey really bad in their game but at the same time thought it was important that Nadine is a person of color. Should they feel forced to pick between one or the other? We know they hired black voice actors before so it seems unlikely that they didn't pick a black actor because of prejudice.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Yeah, my feelings on the issue are complicated.
Like I said, in the Japanese dub of Uncharted 4, I am 100% sure that a Japanese woman will be voicing this character. It's just that we have different expectations because of the American context and the history that surrounds all of that.
Like remember the Disney movie The Princess and the Frog? It was a movie that was very much about a black woman's experience, and even though they could have cast anyone, I'm sure people would have at least raised eyebrows if they cast a non-black woman to perform that role. Should Disney have found the best actress regardless of their race in that situation, since it's a cartoon and not a live action movie? I don't have a definitive answer, but I just lean towards no in that instance.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
OK, sure. It's still a woman in her 30s voicing a 10 year old boy. My main point still stands, in that the background of a voice actor is irrelevant if they are voicing their subject convincingly.
If you are in a position where you don't agree with the VA choice for this newest Uncharted character, yet give this Bart Simpson situation a pass because "reasons," it might be coming across to me as a double standard. I could, of course, be wrong.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I don't think she seems at all similar. Also, Marlene was
an antagonist, not a villain in the slightest. Sacrificing one girl for the chance at a cure for humanity is hardly evil.
It doesn't come off to me as a double standard because young boy voice actors aren't purportedly marginalized by women voice actors, they're just flat out impractical.
KnownAsEpic
Banned
Please lock this thread!
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
I mean what exactly started this? Do people think she's not doing the part right? No that can't be it we haven't even seen enough to say this.