iceatcs
Junior Member
Yeah I know. Good luck them if making AAAA.
Hopefully they are enough for MS or Sony.
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VGLeaks: PlayStation 4 "Orbis" Roadmap
- Thread starter Baki
- Start date
Yeah I know. Good luck them if making AAAA.
Hopefully they are enough for MS or Sony.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Not really, no. There will still be a lot of indie developers for next-gen. We've already seen it in PC market where some indie games require more power than current-gen consoles.
In fact, I believe it's harder to make games for weaker hardware than it is for powerful one. You can toss anything at it and it'll accept it without any crazy optimization.
lwilliams3
Member
It seems like Sony was trying to remove Vita away from the PSP brand. Perhaps that made sense in America (though I don't think the PSP did that badly for at least the first several years), but that strategy definitely did not work in Japan.
The PS3 weakened the brand, but I agree that it is still strong. Sony just have to have a better understanding to what audience they are targeting.
you do assume a lot.
it is going to be a lot easier to develop for both consoles this time around.... the more power it has, easier it is... of course, if you want make games that look like pixar movies, then it will be a lot of money...
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Wooooo Woooooo!
Yeah during that indie panel Sony had after Gamescon, they basically agreed that with a more powerful hardware its easier to do indie games as they don't have to think of ways to make it work, but rather just throw stuff at it and it works straight away.
SniperHunter
Banned
indeed...Sony always listens to first parties, especially now that Krazy Ken is gone. I mean the Last Guardian is still in development after 7 years....
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
So now PS4 is 8 cores as well?
dr_rus
Member
Some tasks cannot be split.
The thing is that if you look at PC scene right now the main thing limiting a game's performance would be one thread performance. Thus if you have an option of going with less faster CPU cores instead of more slower cores you should go with faster ones. This is also the reason why I think that Steamrollers would be better than Jaguars. Another interesting possibility is to do a Cell-like approach and make a heteregenous multicore consisting of one fast CPU core for tasks that can't be split to multiple threads and several simplier CPU cores for highly parallel tasks. I wonder if MS is doing something like this in Xbox 3 CPU...
Haha, I do I do. That's what you do when you nothing but rumours and too much free time, lol. But yea, given the original spec (remember that berating pastebin rant?) shown on VGLeaks to which first parties would have been privy at first, it makes me wonder what (if indeed it started with 2GB) about the turning point. I am supposing the third parties who (once again) I assume would have been informed of XB3's target specs (given all the rumour about MS's dissemination of dev kits before PS4's), "yelled" at Sony to up the RAM specs.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Yeah but your not going to design your game engine to run on a next gen console and have it bottlenecked due to stalls due to a single core.
MrCunningham
Member
Good point. Though, I do think another target audience is the age 20 -30 crowd, who grew up with a GB/ GBA/ NDS and like to buy dedicated game handhelds.
And what was this thread about again? I lost track after most people stopped talking about hardware specs...
Depends on how much of the GPU budget you need to cut out for the steamroller. Pile driver with 4 modules and 8 threads is over 300 mm. Cut that in half to 150mm for 2 modules/4 threads that woud be quite a lot to spend on a CPU. VS we know jaguars are 3.1mm so 8 of them is still only 1/4 the die space. Also with a steamroller you need to go with a discrete GPU no way to put any decent size GPU with that monster onboard. Also 1-2 of those jaguars will be for OS functions only. So you are only looking at 6-7 threads or the same or 1 more than the current 360.
iceatcs
Junior Member
I am confusing with all the CPU rumours too. Mostly on MS's CPU.
I was heard about 16 threads was IBM CPU rumour. Even there are number of MS CPU rumours such as ARM etc. Now we got 8 Jaguars from latter.
Sony's rumours keep switching with Steamroller and Jaguars.
I'd like to see something like a short trailer of a couple of unannounced but amazing-looking games, followed by a fade out to
NEXT GEN STARTS
NOVEMBER 2013 (or whenever they're going to launch)
[PS4 logo]
... or something along those lines, then specs and stuff at E3. If they reveal too much before E3, they may struggle to make as big of an impact as MS at E3. If they don't reveal anything, MS may beat them to the first reveal.
Edit: Oops, wrong thread sorry. Meant to put this in the May reveal rumour thread.
NEXT GEN STARTS
NOVEMBER 2013 (or whenever they're going to launch)
[PS4 logo]
... or something along those lines, then specs and stuff at E3. If they reveal too much before E3, they may struggle to make as big of an impact as MS at E3. If they don't reveal anything, MS may beat them to the first reveal.
Edit: Oops, wrong thread sorry. Meant to put this in the May reveal rumour thread.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I'd like to see less arrogance from Sony this time around.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Maybe there isn't any single AMD card can do more than 2GB GDDR in 2011, if VGleak roadmap accurate.
First breakthrough 2GB+ is Radeon HD 7950 with 3GB on Jan 31, 2012.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
It would be even more awesome if they both dumped traditional controllers for waggle/motion only controls.
The GAF meltdowns would be delicious...
One of them will fuck something up, I'm sure.
Even more delicious would the poor sales of the conoles be.
Neither of them are ditching anything but Microsoft is definitely going to be using Kinect 2 a lot. If it is bundled with the console there will almost definitely be Kinect stuff in every game (voice control, menu navigation, etc)
Can Crusher
Banned
I'm pretty sure we will know that one is more powerful than the other pretty quick, and they will be different. If that translates into the games or not, well maybe only 1st party games. Like this gen.
lwilliams3
Member
Yes, but not just due to power but from more advance hardware features. The Wii suffered through that problem with ports, but the biggest issue was not the power but its pre-modern shader system. For that reason, it is easier to port some current-gen games to the 3DS than the Wii.
It may be easier to make games at a certain level, but it may be a different story if devs desire to push the hardware.
phosphor112
Banned
Exactly, I'll eat my hat if we don't see a significant increase in indie devs. Sony especially has made significant strides in getting indie devs on their systems for playstation mobile, minis, and even general PSN titles. I don't expect any less from MS either though.
API's have improved significantly. It won't be much of an issue.
The RAM situation almost looks like a repeat of the 360/PS3 situation, right? Except this time the totals are different, while in the PS360 just the hard split was different (512 usable by anything, vs 256/256 split), while the PS3 had XDR memory for higher speed as well as having dedicated vram to feed the GPU bandwidth.
This situation led to many cross platform games performing better on the 360, as the 256/256 split was not always optimal for some game types. However on some games with smaller levels but more details within the level, the higher bandwidth of the PS3 won out.
We'll see if that repeats here, or if it's at a point where for most games the lower PS3 amount will be enough in addition to being faster.
The CPU situation is interesting, both seem to be based on a similar generation architecture from AMD, assuming cache sizes and the works are the same the IPC should be similar so clock speed can be used to compare within the same family. I suspect devs will have a happier time with 4 high clocked cores rather than 8 at half that speed, let me tell you first hand that good multithreading is a bitch. Although now there are tools that can abstract that away from programmers, I wonder if Sony or Microsoft will implement something like that? If the 720 is based off of Windows 8, there are features like that baked in, parallel libraries and such which will be quite a boon. Plus Sony still doesn't have an official alternative to Microsofts PIX, do they? Game devs got so damn tired of not having a good debug tool that they made their own for the PS3. Sony should smarten up for the PS4. PIX is a godsend.
Philosophy wise this sounds like the Wii U, just with bigger numbers presumably all around. The main memory bandwidth on the Wii U is really slow for shared GPU/CPU memory (12.8GB/s), but the eDRAM appears to let it keep up.
This situation led to many cross platform games performing better on the 360, as the 256/256 split was not always optimal for some game types. However on some games with smaller levels but more details within the level, the higher bandwidth of the PS3 won out.
We'll see if that repeats here, or if it's at a point where for most games the lower PS3 amount will be enough in addition to being faster.
The CPU situation is interesting, both seem to be based on a similar generation architecture from AMD, assuming cache sizes and the works are the same the IPC should be similar so clock speed can be used to compare within the same family. I suspect devs will have a happier time with 4 high clocked cores rather than 8 at half that speed, let me tell you first hand that good multithreading is a bitch. Although now there are tools that can abstract that away from programmers, I wonder if Sony or Microsoft will implement something like that? If the 720 is based off of Windows 8, there are features like that baked in, parallel libraries and such which will be quite a boon. Plus Sony still doesn't have an official alternative to Microsofts PIX, do they? Game devs got so damn tired of not having a good debug tool that they made their own for the PS3. Sony should smarten up for the PS4. PIX is a godsend.
Philosophy wise this sounds like the Wii U, just with bigger numbers presumably all around. The main memory bandwidth on the Wii U is really slow for shared GPU/CPU memory (12.8GB/s), but the eDRAM appears to let it keep up.
Melchiah
Member
Matter of taste, but I still say you're wrong.
PS1
WipEout
PS2
SSX
Tekken TT
PS3
RFoM
MotorStorm
EDIT: If history repeats itself, there'll be a racing game of some sort.
It makes sense, you can be lazier when you have a more powerful platform and more room to do stuff. These consoles have very little ram to do anything, lots of optimisation of assets from a higher quality and resolution base.
It is why I imagine developers wont quite have the same problem they had going into this generation and HD, we'll probably get a whole bunch of games that look like late games from this gen but with higher textures and effects that can take advantage of the room they will now have.
I'm kind of hoping they leave Motorstorm behind, while the first title sold well, the second and apocalypse iirc didn't do especially well. And now we don't have Studio Liverpool anymore to know there will be a WipEout at some point, so I hope we get something new.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Ridge Racer 8.
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
This thread was created a few hours ago about it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=508153
Can Crusher
Banned
Ram amount isn't telling the whole story I believe. ES ram, HSA, and whatever else we don't know.
They had to know this before hand, if not, it's going to be a massive difference in terms of BW, massive.
Yeah. The RAM story in both consoles are missing a significant piece of the puzzle. Final specs will surprise everyone.
Common sense, just ask any developer. Not all tasks can be split up to run on multiple cores, especially when you get to tasks that depend on the previous task to complete. Also, communication between cores gets less efficient with more cores present. Cell does not suffer from this communication inefficiency issue, but it comes at the cost of increased software development costs and limitations on the SPU's. Assuming both consoles will have homogenous multi-cores with shared memory and not something like Cell, it's better to have fewer cores that are faster from a development standpoint.
None of those are system sellers or even must have games.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Both will surprise? Outside of stacking, what could it be?
Melchiah
Member
People always say that, but did the PS3 sell more right after coming from the success of the PS2, or later on when their mantle was tarnished?
EDIT:
Then you have a quite selective taste in games, if even WipEout and SSX aren't must-haves for you.
I dunno :/
When that rumour happened - I think it was sweetvar who said that? - there wasn't a mention of how many. I think a lot of people assumed that because they were smaller and lower-clocked/lower-powered it would mean more than the 4 steamrollers though.
systemfehler
Member
those hints are driving me crazy...
HanShotFirst
Member
This may or may not be slightly off topic but what do you think Sony will do with Home? According to Wikipedia, its still in open beta. Unless they decided it wasn't important to have an official final release, I wonder if they'll have a new version for the PS4 and that will be the "Official" release.
It would be interesting if Sony does end up going with Steamroller. At first it seemed unlikely because it got pushed back to 2014, but apparently it appeared on a roadmap again for (late) 2013.
I know Bulldozer and even Piledriver are pretty huge (315mm²), especially for a console. However, PD already improved on the die size (with Trinity I believe) on the same process and SR is a 28nm chip. So even without further improvements and not taking scaling into account, a PD die on 28nm would be more or less 242mm². So let's say a 2M/4C SR chip could end up being about 150mm². Add in a Pitcairn-level of GPU, which is 212mm², take away a memory controller since there would be only one if they go the APU route and add some overall improvements of SR and GCN 1.1. This way you might have a chip around 300mm² which doesn't burn too much money on silicon and is still manufacturable.
It would be a big PR stunt if Sony/AMD can come out and say that the PS4 will be the first product featuring Steamroller.
I know this armchair speculation is most likely way off, but I guess I just have too much time on my hands.
I know Bulldozer and even Piledriver are pretty huge (315mm²), especially for a console. However, PD already improved on the die size (with Trinity I believe) on the same process and SR is a 28nm chip. So even without further improvements and not taking scaling into account, a PD die on 28nm would be more or less 242mm². So let's say a 2M/4C SR chip could end up being about 150mm². Add in a Pitcairn-level of GPU, which is 212mm², take away a memory controller since there would be only one if they go the APU route and add some overall improvements of SR and GCN 1.1. This way you might have a chip around 300mm² which doesn't burn too much money on silicon and is still manufacturable.
It would be a big PR stunt if Sony/AMD can come out and say that the PS4 will be the first product featuring Steamroller.
I know this armchair speculation is most likely way off, but I guess I just have too much time on my hands.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't see what is missing though. Durango 8GB DDR3 + eSRAM and Orbis 4GB GDDR5 or 4GB DDR3/4 + Stacking.
Wipeout was. As was Ridge Racer.
Neither series hold the same sway now of course (even though they're both still personal favourites of mine).