Support NeoGAF

[faceless007]

Examples? And if they exist, does anyone actually read them?

Seriously? You've never heard of Variety or The Hollywood Reporter?

 

[nluckett]

Iwata is the only real games journalist.

I'm kind of kidding, but not really.

 

[chalkitdown1]

That Eurogamer article is fantastic, one of the best things I've ever read on that site.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It would help too if people stopped thinking about Geoff Keighley as a journalist and started thinking about him as Ryan Seacrest, which is exactly what he is to this industry.

The whole conversation is incredibly muddled for multiple reasons.

1) the readers commenting aren't necessarily familiar with the basic tenets of journalism, to the point where many people believe game reviews count as "journalism"

2) The vast majority of paid writers in the games press are/were self-taught bloggers who showed enough skill and ability to attract readers, who also aren't necessarily familiar with the basic tenets of journalism.

3) The definition of journalism in the ongoing debate is now a semi-liquid, muddy thing because of 1 and 2, and combined with a rudimentary understanding of how sports/films have their own press, leads to a veritable bounty of misguided analogies that, regardless which angle you come from, serve only to apologize for the way things currently are.

 

[The Elite]

What makes the image is that face. Geoff Keighley looks like he's hosting Masterpiece Theatre brought to you by Gamer Fuel and Doritos.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I don't see what's the problem here. Geoff is more a gaming personality than a journalist. He's only endorsing his name to certain products, something that actors, sportmans, writers, etc do all the time.

 

[Suzzopher]

Eurogamer are bang on the money with that article. The club of buddies thing absolutely has to change.

 

[boutrosinit]

From a poster on the EG comments that I think is quite on the money:

spliffhead
2 hours ago
Any Journo who takes a kickback becomes tainted, any future copy related to their pimp's product should only ever been seen as Advertorial.

In the mainstream press you'd be out of a job (nowadays at least)

In Finance you'd be up for insider trading (if the FSA can catch you).

In the Army, that's treason/spying.

In Sports it's taking a dive or match/race bans.

In the Police, you're going to Prison.

Give Johnny a break, he's not on a pedestal, he's just got his head above the table and not below it eat corporate sausage.

 

[DocSeuss]

Yes, because Polygon has proved they are all excellent. Nothing like accepting $750,000 from MS to make a documentary.

So what? How is that a bad thing?

Is it because you're NateDrake and you disapprove of Microsoft? I've heard people talk about it like it's some horrible thing, but everything I know about media ethics says otherwise. El_TigroX seems to back that up.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

That EG article is fantastic. Should be a new thread, really, so more people get to read it.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

This could have been avoided. I wrote about it (it's a bit of a ramble) on a blog, and I think all that Keighley had to do was preface the segment better. He just had to state that he was being sponsored or asked by Dew/Doritos to talk about the program. By trying to make it sound like it was naturally what they wanted to talk about, it became deeply tainted.

Here's the piece: http://stupidgamer.com/2012/10/23/so-this-happened-and-its-open-season-for-games-journalism-now/

When talking about Halo 4 or the Dew XP program, all Geoff would have said to make this go down easier would have been, “and I want to talk about this DewXP and Halo 4 stuff. I’ve been lucky enough to be asked by Mountain Dew and 343 Industries to discuss it with you.” Doing that, it would have been received so much better. By disguising it as a journalistic segment between an online magazine and a journalist, this whole segment comes across as gross, insulting, and kind of sad.

And yes, this blurring of the lines between advertising and editorial is gross and it needs to be avoided at all costs. It's really not good, because it makes gamers suspicious of positive coverage.

Still, I think the bigger problem in gaming journalism is that far too often the relationship between PR and writers is far too close. It's unavoidable, given how much time the two groups spend working together, but it's definitely coloring coverage more than sponsorship has.

My take on that was covered here: http://www.gamertheory.com/story.as...relationship+between+games+journalism+and+PR/

A cut from that piece with a real-world example:

A few years back, a bit before the launch of the Wii and PS3, I attended a media day at a large publisher's office. We were there to see games for the 360, Wii, and PS3, and for many in attendance it would be their first hands on with Wii and PS3 software. After the first couple of major titles, we broke for lunch. The publisher treated us to a decent meal of sandwiches, salads, and a few desserts. As we sat to eat, I noticed that a few other reporters left to "go get some real food" with a couple of members from the PR team. The group was pretty small, and at the time it seemed harmless.

As we sat down to eat, a few guys at the table grumbled a bit about the guys who left for lunch with the PR team members. Someone said that those journalists were getting a great free meal somewhere, but that they "typically will pay it back with a glowing preview."

I didn't think much of it and chuckled at the comment, figuring it was more of a joke than anything. But sure enough, as embargoes lifted, the guys who went to lunch served up previews that were devoid of criticism that were also packed with bits of information that nobody else had access to at the event.

 

[megalowho]

All heed mighty spliffhead, paragon of journalistic integrity. The gaming press are a bunch of crooks and PR departments are pimps! Fight the power with misguided analogies! Also can I have your job? Promise not to care about the free stuff, honest.

 

[PowderedToast]

The likes of me got paid to write about games at one point in my life and I never once claimed to be a "games journalist" or some other bullshit, so don't try to pin something on me. I never cared who was advertising on our site, never once listened to an ad sales guy that requested I "take it easy" on a client, but I always understood what it took to make projects happen. Ad revenue is what makes a website survive, it also allows it freedom and flexibility to try new things.

The "likes of you" don't understand the economics of a media business and believe that accepting advertising revenue = immediate perjury.

The problem is that many (most) "games journalists" haven't had their "come to Jesus" moment and think they're Woodward and Bernstein. They write about a consumer product... and outside of a handful, don't conduct themselves as journalists.

So Powdered Toast, shove your condescending bullshit and choke on my condescending bullshit.

wow, don't you have a lot to say.

and yes, i very much understand. if you can't fathom why the microsoft ad deal is a problem it simply proves your (likely willful) ignorance on the topic. so please stop beating your chest and stomping around in an effort to prove your non-existent credibility.

 

[hammster]

http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games-journalists-and-the-perception-of-corruption/

 

[JDSN]

http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games-journalists-and-the-perception-of-corruption/

One time I was sent to London for a preview event for the game Auto Assault. What I didn’t know was that I’d spend the day riding on quad bikes and hovercraft. I had a great day, by coincidence with a few good friends, and at the end of it we were shown the average-looking game. That I’d wasted a day pratting around on bikes didn’t make me want to like the game more – if anything it puts the mediocrity of a game in perspective – and the game went on to be a disastrous flop that few journalists sought to defend because they’d had a nice day going on a quad bike. But that day is definitely deserving of criticism – it had nothing to do with the game, and had no purpose other than to try to entertain us. And the publishers had no reason to want to entertain us other than to have us like their game more. It didn’t work, it’s damned stupid. But I was a part of it, and you’d be right to criticise it. (Although at least I didn’t bloody well write about the day for any press – I’m very concerned to see today people boasting about some ridiculous jaunt in Paris as Microsoft pay for a bunch of journos to race cars, and then their writing about that experience separately and irrelevantly of the game, for magazines/websites.)

Damn. Cant wait for DocSeuss and El_TigroX to defend this.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

wow, don't you have a lot to say.

and yes, i very much understand. if you can't fathom why the microsoft ad deal is a problem it simply proves your (likely willful) ignorance on the topic. so please stop beating your chest and stomping around in an effort to prove your non-existent credibility.

Please break your objection down for me.

Because here's how I see it:

Microsoft Marketing's job (and their external agency) is to find places to advertise (wide reach, premium product or program sponsorship).

SB Nation's ad reps (from Washington, D.C. or NYC) do their rounds to all the major agencies and offer up the sponsorship of the documentary and most likely banner ads and other ad spots on Polygon (and likely The Verge as a whole - Polygon's too small to generate the ad impressions on its own).

SB Nation banks most of the money and likely carves off about 10% for the documentary's equipment and production, the rest goes to operating expenses and the group's P&L.

The Polygon folks make the video, post it and run a pre-roll ad from Microsoft.

And then...? They write about whatever beat they're covering. Some are doing features, other reviews, others interviews and also some poor sucker has to upload game pictures.

I'm being genuine when I ask: where does the cash from the agency in NYC or the bosses in D.C. influence the writer living in Texas or San Francisco? Ad sales doesn't sit with editorial because editorial is spread across the country. And they're too busy to really give a damn about who is running pre-roll on a video they shot last week. They're already on to the next thing, and their job is to write, not worry about paying the bills.

Do you honestly think a writer is going to give a pass to the next Xbox game or console based solely on a sponsorship like this?

 

[DocSeuss]

Damn. Cant wait for DocSeuss and El_TigroX to defend this.

Why defend that? It's reprehensible.

The only thing I've defended is... oh, hey, that article you quoted? It does a better job covering the subject than I ever could:

I want to add here, however, that a mistake an awful lot of people make is the belief that advertising regularly influences editorial. Again, yes, it has in various generally well known cases. But again, that’s very unusual. For example, PC Gamer is written each month with the writers mostly not having a clue which ads will appear between the articles, and more significantly, not caring. A part of an editor’s job is to keep the idiotic ideas an ad department come up with at bay, and also ensure his/her writers never have to hear about any of it. That’s normal. And at RPS, we have absolutely no idea who will be advertising on our site. That’s all done by the ad staff at Eurogamer, with whom we partner for advertising content.

Reading comprehension would be a tremendous benefit to you as an individual. I have said that there's nothing wrong with accepting advertising dollars from a publisher, and John Walker, one of my favorite gaming writers, verifies this.

Please break your objection down for me.

Because here's how I see it:

Microsoft Marketing's job (and their external agency) is to find places to advertise (wide reach, premium product or program sponsorship).

SB Nation's ad reps (from Washington, D.C. or NYC) do their rounds to all the major agencies and offer up the sponsorship of the documentary and most likely banner ads and other ad spots on Polygon (and likely The Verge as a whole - Polygon's too small to generate the ad impressions on its own).

SB Nation banks most of the money and likely carves off about 10% for the documentary's equipment and production, the rest goes to operating expenses and the group's P&L.

The Polygon folks make the video, post it and run a pre-roll ad from Microsoft.

And then...? They write about whatever beat they're covering. Some are doing features, other reviews, others interviews and also some poor sucker has to upload game pictures.

I'm being genuine when I ask: where does the cash from the agency in NYC or the bosses in D.C. influence the writer living in Texas or San Francisco? Ad sales doesn't sit with editorial because editorial is spread across the country. And they're too busy to really give a damn about who is running pre-roll on a video they shot last week. They're already on to the next thing, and their job is to write, not worry about paying the bills.

Do you honestly think a writer is going to give a pass to the next Xbox game or console based solely on a sponsorship like this?

Their argument, which appears to be that they can't be objective towards Microsoft games due to an Internet Explorer ad, breaks down entirely when you point out that Polygon regularly gives Microsoft games (particularly Kinect, but Forza got one as well) poor reviews.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

Damn. Cant wait for DocSeuss and El_TigroX to defend this.

What am I defending here? I've been in a similar situation - replace hoverbikes with a motorcycle and a shitty motorcycle game. Riding a bike for an hour, and being tortured talking to a dimwit motorbike stunt guy didn't sway me, nor did the cab ride out of the city to the location.

What am I defending? The practice of bringing someone to a location to play the game?

I enjoy that people bring up these apparently lavish trips to places, because 95% of the games I played were in a cramped, tight, hot and gross hotel suite in Midtown (hell on earth) Manhattan. That's the norm.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The shit that went down with Dragon Age is still amazing

Why is something like that even necessary? Just send a review copy and be done with it.

 

[Kamek]

If Geoff wasn't such a sycophant to Sony execs and put in as much work interrogating them as he does Reggie, I'd have a lot more respect for him.

 

[RedNumberFive]

The shit that went down with Dragon Age is still amazing

Why is something like that even necessary? Just send a review copy and be done with it.

You gotta grease some palms to get those high Metacritic scores!

 

[HamPster PamPster]

There's a Games Media Award? I never knew

How many awards did Vinny win?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

There's a Games Media Award? I never knew

How many awards did Vinny win?

He has his own a ward, The Vinny. He wins it every year.

 

[Ragingbegal]

This is the HARDEST thing to do for websites for a variety of reasons:

- Scale - most enthusiast websites aren't large enough to get bigger clients/ad buys
- Demographic (M 18-34) - one of the most desirable audiences online, but when push comes to shove, few people will dedicate an ad buy to reach them.
- competition - too many small sites out there picking each other off instead of forming an ad buying network (and really, networks aren't desirable to advertising).
- Advertisers want to advertise against better content - content on game sites is really not something advertisers want to put themselves next to.

A few years ago CrispyGamer.com put their stake in the ground and said "We won't accept ads from endemic advertisers (game companies)" - they wanted to only run ads from a larger set of advertisers because they believed it was more stable. CrispyGamer collapsed when the market declined. And not just them, lots of sites that tried that method couldn't keep paying their staff when advertisers pulled back their dollars.

That's fine for smaller, enthusiast sites. I can certainly empathize with small publications who are trying to grow or sustain themselves. Game publisher advertising dollars may be vital for them. I'm talking more about IGN, 1up and other larger websites that could find additional advertising revenue streams to at least lessen the influence publishers have on them.
To put it clearly, I don't mind seeing a video game ad on a video game site. My concern is that over-reliance on those kinds of ads encourages compromises to editorial content. It's difficult not to have that view when you visit IGN and see the entire site reskinned to promote a game.
Finding new sources of advertising would be a step in the right direction.

Megalowho: I consider Simmons one of my favorite writers, but his role within sports journalism is very different from most writers. He's more of an entertainment writer whose media is sports, and he's excellent at that. There's certainly room for such people within the games industry as well, but we need more quality hard news and feature writers first.

 

[Ragingbegal]

The shit that went down with Dragon Age is still amazing

Why is something like that even necessary? Just send a review copy and be done with it.

This is the equivalent of slipping a $20 bill into the review box.

 

[Jake Tower]

A cut from that piece with a real-world example:

A few years back, a bit before the launch of the Wii and PS3, I attended a media day at a large publisher's office. We were there to see games for the 360, Wii, and PS3, and for many in attendance it would be their first hands on with Wii and PS3 software. After the first couple of major titles, we broke for lunch. The publisher treated us to a decent meal of sandwiches, salads, and a few desserts. As we sat to eat, I noticed that a few other reporters left to "go get some real food" with a couple of members from the PR team. The group was pretty small, and at the time it seemed harmless.

As we sat down to eat, a few guys at the table grumbled a bit about the guys who left for lunch with the PR team members. Someone said that those journalists were getting a great free meal somewhere, but that they "typically will pay it back with a glowing preview."

I didn't think much of it and chuckled at the comment, figuring it was more of a joke than anything. But sure enough, as embargoes lifted, the guys who went to lunch served up previews that were devoid of criticism that were also packed with bits of information that nobody else had access to at the event.


Might I say that real journalist should 'name names' and expose this?

 

[FStop7]

What am I defending here? I've been in a similar situation - replace hoverbikes with a motorcycle and a shitty motorcycle game. Riding a bike for an hour, and being tortured talking to a dimwit motorbike stunt guy didn't sway me, nor did the cab ride out of the city to the location.

What am I defending? The practice of bringing someone to a location to play the game?

I enjoy that people bring up these apparently lavish trips to places, because 95% of the games I played were in a cramped, tight, hot and gross hotel suite in Midtown (hell on earth) Manhattan. That's the norm.

Oh man bro hell on earth reviewing toys in Manhattan? You guys got it so rough, nobody can understand your pain.

 

[Jake Tower]

Oh man bro hell on earth reviewing toys in Manhattan? You guys got it so rough, nobody can understand your pain.

Why hasn't Mike Rowe contacted these guys to be on Dirty Jobs yet?

 

[Ragingbegal]

Oh man bro hell on earth reviewing toys in Manhattan? You guys got it so rough, nobody can understand your pain.

It's still a job, and I would guess he plays a lot of stuff that he'd rather not be wasting his time on given the freedom.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Oh man bro hell on earth reviewing toys in Manhattan? You guys got it so rough, nobody can understand your pain.

This was my first thought as well. Thanks for posting what I just didn't have the heart to say!

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Might I say that real journalist should 'name names' and expose this?

I don't think it would help or change the practice, it would only do harm to a few individuals. Again, I don't think it's a completely 100% conscious thing happening on their part, it's just this natural helping out among friends going on. From the outside it looks terrible, from the inside it seems harmless.

 

[conman]

That Eurogamer article is fantastic, one of the best things I've ever read on that site.

Eurogamer. Keeping it real. UK style.

I'll keep reading their work so long as they keep taking these kinds of risks.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The shit that went down with Dragon Age is still amazing

Why is something like that even necessary? Just send a review copy and be done with it.

So when you make a bad game, they'll still give you good reviews.

 

[Absoludacrous]

Eurogamer. Keeping it real. UK style.

I'll keep reading their work so long as they keep taking these kinds of risks.

Risks like Darkfall, right?

This is my point. If Jayson Blair worked in videogame journalism, he'd get a 5 page thread on Neogaf and that's it. The system is broken because the readership doesn't really care.

 

[jett]

But Brad Pitt is doing comercials for the WiiU.

hahaha holy shit

 

[Jake Tower]

I don't think it would help or change the practice, it would only do harm to a few individuals. Again, I don't think it's a completely 100% conscious thing happening on their part, it's just this natural helping out among friends going on. From the outside it looks terrible, from the inside it seems harmless.

Expose it and let the readers decide.

That's what journalism is supposed to do.

 

[TemplaerDude]

I didn't know Keighley was Canadian. He gets a pass from me.

 

[DocSeuss]

Oh man bro hell on earth reviewing toys in Manhattan? You guys got it so rough, nobody can understand your pain.

Reviewing toys wasn't hell on earth, being trapped in a "tight, hot, and gross hotel room in Midtown" was.

 

[Harlock]

At least everyone loves Doritos.

 

[geebee]

At least everyone loves Doritos.

Doritos are nasty.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

At least everyone loves Doritos.

And nobody hates bonus XP!

 

[Deleted member 20415]

I hate Midtown Manhattan, I wasn't talking about playing games being hell, being in hotel rooms for too long with dudes was. It was the best job I've ever had and likely will ever have.

All perspective I guess guys. Whatever.

I have zero problems putting myself out there, so if that's the criticism I endure, that's fine.

 

[APZonerunner]

The shit that went down with Dragon Age is still amazing

Why is something like that even necessary? Just send a review copy and be done with it.

It's a nice idea in theory just pushed to an absolute ridiculous level. Fable 2 and 3, for instance, both shipped with a letter from Molyneux to press, but it was a standard copy, and the letter was sort of standard Molyneux enthusing. "Please, please, please, please, please find somebody who doesn't play games, watch them play it and see how their world comes out," he wrote. Things like that. It became a staple of Lionhead games; I used to look forward to how he'd address the press in the moments before they put the disc in. This is fine. This ridiculous leather bound cases or game-branded knuckle dusters and all that shit is ridiculous, though.

With Dragon Age 2 EA shipped a branded foam sword. I am OK with this because it cost pence to make (even though it's just clutter that went in the bin.) The ridiculous stuff like the above isn't ideal on any level. But it'll never end. It's up to people to figure out who they trust. The freebies ultimately don't matter; it's if the person in question lets their opinion be swayed by such treatment. You need to find the people for whom you think the answer is no, because all of the big sites and big journalists get the same treatment anyway.

Why not reject? Well, you can, but that presents inherent problems: If you reject the lavish preview event, you don't get to see the game at all, and you miss out on content. That's not ideal. You have to make a compromise. If a company just sends a gigantic bag of free shit then that's an entirely different moral issue and you'd hope most would send it right back, of course. Half of the time this stuff comes part and parcel with the preview process, from Sony's lavish E3 press conference pre and after parties with thousands of dollars of food, drink and entertainment to being taken to do something 'special' that's vaguely related to the game as part of a wider preview day.

For that to change we need reform across the board, not just in journalism but in PR and Marketing too. That's just not going to happen. Not yet, anyway. (And movie & music studios still pull the same sort of tricks and they're a much older industry.)

 

[HueyFreeman]

It appears Eurogamer has posted an opinion piece on the very same photograph linked in the OP

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

Bravo to Eurogamer for taking this on and flat out calling out "one of their own." Only in an medium this fledgling and juvenile would industry overlap this extensively with it's documentation. If a movie or music critic was ever a paid sponsor of one of the pieces they reviewed, they'd be reviled and instantly discredited.. permanently. We've got to start asking more of this industry... just, in general actually.

 

[conman]

Risks like Darkfall, right?

Career suicide. I'd say they made amends. And I respect the fact that they left the unaltered original review stand for posterity. Most other sites would have just obliterated it and replaced it with the new one.

This is my point. If Jayson Blair worked in videogame journalism, he'd get a 5 page thread on Neogaf and that's it. The system is broken because the readership doesn't really care.

True enough. Hell, the industry is currently filled with writers doing worse things than Jayson Blair, and no one cares. Most readers of gaming sites just cruise for numbers and videos. They don't care about written text, thoughtful criticism, or insight. I mean, even on GAF most folks treat GB's Quick Looks as gospel, and those are about as undigested as media gets.

It's all about audience, but I'm optimistic that there's a gaming audience out there that wants something with integrity, insight, and healthy self-deprecation. It's unfortunate that no site (that I've found) wants to take a risk by catering to that readership. Maybe by the time more of us hit middle age, we'll start seeing something smarter and better than what now exists. Even the most well-intentioned sites still aim directly for the 13-20 age demographic.

 

[Harlock]

More fun than playing games!

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Career suicide. I'd say they made amends. And I respect the fact that they left the unaltered original review stand for posterity. Most other sites would have just obliterated it and replaced it with the new one.

True enough. Hell, the industry is currently filled with writers doing worse things than Jayson Blair, and no one cares. Most readers of gaming sites just cruise for numbers and videos. They don't care about written text, thoughtful criticism, or insight. I mean, even on GAF most folks treat GB's Quick Looks as gospel, and those are about as undigested as media gets.

It's all about audience, but I'm optimistic that there's a gaming audience out there that wants something with integrity, insight, and healthy self-deprecation. It's unfortunate that no site (that I've found) wants to take a risk by catering to that readership. Maybe by the time more of us hit middle age, we'll start seeing something smarter and better than what now exists. Even the most well-intentioned sites still aim directly for the 13-20 age demographic.

It's nice to want things (the hubris and sedentary reactionary nature of older folks make this VERY difficult, even the smarter ones).

 

[CrunchinJelly]

More fun than playing games!

"I'm properly miserable now" because I got called out on my bullshit.

 

[conman]

More fun than playing games!

He got called out for being cynical, not for being corrupt. He should feel miserable.

 

[Rinoa]

It appears Eurogamer has posted an opinion piece on the very same photograph linked in the OP

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

This is an article I've been waiting my whole life for. It's easy to read and yet, unsurprisingly, the games journo in the comment still doesn't get what was wrong.