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[RedNumberFive]

The system as it currently exists doesn't allow, expect, or even want the same level of journalism. It's enthusiast press, not war reporting.

I mean I'm all for quality, and not the dreck we usually get, but the average spike TV viewer certainly isn't. And I would think anyone who was serious about their videogame press would be able to understand how the system works and be glad that someone in the position of Keighly is able to do stuff like the 'Final Hours' pieces while shackled under the way the system is currently set up.

Basically, he's not the guy to attack here. He's still produced quality stuff, despite his position as TV pitchman on a cable network. Blame the system and the consumers who don't care about quality writing, and instead just want to yell at people for giving Uncharted 3 an 8.whatever.

I'm not expecting "war reporting", just the bare minimum of effort.

Using multiple sources, paraphrasing those sources, then citing those sources. This is English 101. Simple stuff.

As bad as that is, their professional ethics are nonexistent. Excepting free gifts, and round way trips to exciting locations for press junkets, pretty much confirm that they are bought and sold. If you look at pretty much any company out there, the standards for free gifts generally say it's ok to accept if the item is < $15. These guys will accept anything and everything, and will whine on Twitter when they don't get their free swag.

I would expect a "journalist" to adhere to the above, but let's call a spade a spade. These guys are an extension of publisher PR, and hold out their hands saying "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie" at every opportunity.

If you can't even understand that, then I'm afraid that the concept of "journalism" is lost on you.

Again, the bar has been set low for so long, that I can't blame you for thinking this way.

 

[superfamicom]

I'm not sure if you are all aware, but ...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS VIDEO GAME JOURNALISM.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

I'm not sure if you are all aware, but ...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS VIDEO GAME JOURNALISM.

Yes there is.

 

[Smash88]

I'm not sure if you are all aware, but ...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS VIDEO GAME JOURNALISM.

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

The system as it currently exists doesn't allow, expect, or even want the same level of journalism. It's enthusiast press, not war reporting.

Exactly. The level of journalism or enthusiast press is only as important as the subject allows it to be. Videogames are fairly trivial in the larger scope of things and so most writing on videogames is fairly trivial. That's all right.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Exactly. The level of journalism or enthusiast press is only as important as the subject allows it to be. Videogames are fairly trivial in the larger scope of things and so most writing on videogames is fairly trivial. That's all right.

You don't always need to set your standards so low. Aim higher.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Presenter, not journalist.

 

[IC_Champion]

I'm not sure if you are all aware, but ...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS VIDEO GAME JOURNALISM.

You serious (trolling?)? The medium of video games has an industry, and where there's an industry, there will be a journalist who covers them (ie: Car Industry - Auto Journalist, Film Industry - Film Critics, Tech Industry - Tech Journalists, etc)

 

[Zeliard]

It's so comically over-the-top that it veers into parody. If someone were to create a photoshop representing that exact picture, people would say they were overly exaggerating.

 

[geebee]

Should the topic title be changed?

I vote for "Geoff Keighley's throne of Doritos, Mtn Dew, and Master Chief's thigh highs"

 

[faceless007]

Exactly. The level of journalism or enthusiast press is only as important as the subject allows it to be. Videogames are fairly trivial in the larger scope of things and so most writing on videogames is fairly trivial. That's all right.

Movies are fairly trivial but there is lots of well-researched and in-depth journalism about the movie industry, the way the studios operate, what changes are happening within the business as they adapt to new threats and competition, and anything else that concerns the business.

 

[The Albatross]

It's out fault. Whenever independently funded journalists attempt to cover games (ie, WSJ), we lambaste them for not getting our hobby like we get our hobby. So instead it has to be covered by hobbyists who are, surprise, paid for by sponsors in the industry.

 

[Absoludacrous]

I'm not expecting "war reporting", just the bare minimum of effort.

Using multiple sources, paraphrasing those sources, then citing those sources. This is English 101. Simple stuff.

As bad as that is, their professional ethics are nonexistent. Excepting free gifts, and round way trips to exciting locations for press junkets, pretty much confirm that they are bought and sold. If you look at pretty much any company out there, the standards for free gifts generally say it's ok to accept if the item is < $15. These guys will accept anything and everything, and will whine on Twitter when they don't get their free swag.

I would expect a "journalist" to adhere to the above, but let's call a spade a spade. These guys are an extension of publisher PR, and hold out their hands saying "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie" at every opportunity.

If you can't even understand that, then I'm afraid that the concept of "journalism" is lost on you.

Again, the bar has been set low for so long, that I can't blame you for thinking this way.

I studied Journalism at UF, I'm fairly aware of the concept. I think it's great that you want to hold the gaming press to these standards. I would totally welcome those changes as well, and actively support the people in the industry that do. People like Patrick Klepek.

But if you want to call a spade a spade, then you should realize that we're in the minority. Papers like the NYT are still in business because of their reputation. The most visited video game website is IGN. The problems with this industry do not rest on the feet of the journalists. It's great that we do have quality writers here and there, but expecting that kind of standard across an industry that doesn't really care is insane.

I mean Keighley's job is to attract the majority, so why are you suprised that he's now Lord of the Dew? Did you expect a cable television host to lead the revolution against sponsored product placement? The better alternative is to accept that Spike TV caters towards the Game Fuel chugging crowd and be happy that Keighley hasn't completely sold his soul and is capable of producing quality writing and interviews.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I studied Journalism at UF, I'm fairly aware of the concept. I think it's great that you want to hold the gaming press to these standards. I would totally welcome those changes as well, and actively support the people in the industry that do. People like Patrick Klepek.

But if you want to call a spade a spade, then you should realize that we're in the minority. Papers like the NYT are still in business because of their reputation. The most visited video game website is IGN. The problems with this industry do not rest on the feet of the journalists. It's great that we do have quality writers here and there, but expecting that kind of standard across an industry that doesn't really care is insane.

I mean Keighley's job is to attract the majority, so why are you suprised that he's now Lord of the Dew? Did you expect a cable television host to lead the revolution against sponsored product placement? The better alternative is to accept that Spike TV caters towards the Game Fuel chugging crowd and be happy that Keighley hasn't completely sold his soul and is capable of producing quality writing and interviews.

Great points. You're right, there are a few real journalists out there like Klepik. Unfortunately they're in the minority. I also agree, it's best to keep all of these hacks in one place, whether it's Spike or Polygon.

 

[Absoludacrous]

Great points. You're right, there are a few real journalists out there like Klepik. Unfortunately they're in the minority. I also agree, it's best to keep all of these hacks in one place, whether it's Spike or Polygon.

I agree, that is the beauty of Polygon.

 

[braves01]

Just curious, how much does Geoff make in a year? He seems like the Ryan Seacrest of gaming.

 

[cameron]

It's so comically over-the-top that it veers into parody. If someone were to create a photoshop representing that exact picture, people would say they were overly exaggerating.

The careful placement/arrangement of the Doritos bag and Dew bottles on a pedestal draped with black fabric is frigging hilarious. Keighley should've talked to the assortment like it was a co-anchor.

 

[toddhunter]

Exactly. The level of journalism or enthusiast press is only as important as the subject allows it to be. Videogames are fairly trivial in the larger scope of things and so most writing on videogames is fairly trivial. That's all right.

I hope one day videogame journalists reach the level of those reporting on things like politics on fox or cnn.

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

I hope one day videogame journalists reach the level of those reporting on things like politics on fox or cnn.

I take politicians about as seriously as I take videogames and sometimes less.

 

[NeoUltima]

I like MtnDew and Doritos. What the problem is?

 

[Teletraan1]

Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It appears Eurogamer has posted an opinion piece on the very same photograph linked in the OP

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

 

[RedNumberFive]

It appears Eurogamer has posted an opinion piece on the very same photograph linked in the OP

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

That was beautiful. It pretty much encompasses the whole problem, and deserves to be it's own thread.

 

[hammster]

That was beautiful. It pretty much encompasses the whole problem, and deserves to be it's own thread.

It's caused quite a storm on Twitter.

 

[NateDrake]

I agree, that is the beauty of Polygon.

Yes, because Polygon has proved they are all excellent. Nothing like accepting $750,000 from MS to make a documentary.

 

[Vice]

Exactly. The level of journalism or enthusiast press is only as important as the subject allows it to be. Videogames are fairly trivial in the larger scope of things and so most writing on videogames is fairly trivial. That's all right.

Sports are about a trivial and the writing found in an ESPN or LA Times sports article blows anything on IGN out of the water event though they're all on fairly trivial material.

 

[Torgo]

If we could get sponsors like that, especially non-gaming sponsors, we'd whore it up worse than anything you've ever seen. With our current sponsor, we don't even make enough to cover expenses lol

 

[Deleted member 20415]

Yes, because Polygon has proved they are all excellent. Nothing like accepting $750,000 from MS to make a documentary.

Ugh - this whole myth of Microsoft funding their documentary needs to stop. The attached value is unimportant because the full sum would never be applied to the actual documentary itself.

That was an ad deal with a "value added" of pre-roll infront of the videos. A portion of the ad deal was absolutely used for the production (equipment, editing, etc.). It's a common practice for websites (and has existed in ALL media) and likely came through the ad sales department, which doesn't write text for the site.

I don't work for Polygon. I have plenty of friends that do work there, and I have worked for multiple media companies that did or have done the exact same thing.

Getting an ad deal with a portion of the money going to production doesn't perjure anyone.

 

[conman]

Movies are fairly trivial but there is lots of well-researched and in-depth journalism about the movie industry, the way the studios operate, what changes are happening within the business as they adapt to new threats and competition, and anything else that concerns the business.

Examples? And if they exist, does anyone actually read them?

I'm all for improving the standards of games journalism/writing, but I think we need to be reasonable about what those standards might be. The bulk of film writing is a combination of reviews and celebrity gossip.

You really don't see hard-hitting investigative journalism in the film industry, or the music industry, or even the book industry. That doesn't mean there aren't the occasional outliers, nor does that mean that such a thing isn't possible. But by and large, entertainment industries rely on entertaining coverage.

No doubt, standards should improve. But there's no motivation to do so as long as people continue to read/watch this crap.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Word of Mouth is more accurate than Game Journalism.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

Word of Mouth is more accurate than Game Journalism.

Accurate might not be the word, effective at influencing purchase for a product, yes.

Word of mouth is prone to whisper down the lane, so a message will likely be lost (the uninformed GameStop manager or personal friend that heard something through someone else); But there's plenty of research that shows your personal network has a large part in your purchase consideration.

 

[PowderedToast]

Ugh - this whole myth of Microsoft funding their documentary needs to stop. The attached value is unimportant because the full sum would never be applied to the actual documentary itself.

That was an ad deal with a "value added" of pre-roll infront of the videos. A portion of the ad deal was absolutely used for the production (equipment, editing, etc.). It's a common practice for websites (and has existed in ALL media) and likely came through the ad sales department, which doesn't write text for the site.

I don't work for Polygon. I have plenty of friends that do work there, and I have worked for multiple media companies that did or have done the exact same thing.

Getting an ad deal with a portion of the money going to production doesn't perjure anyone.

the likes of you will never, ever learn.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Accurate might not be the word, effective at influencing purchase for a product, yes.

Word of mouth is prone to whisper down the lane, so a message will likely be lost (the uninformed GameStop manager or personal friend that heard something through someone else); But there's plenty of research that shows your personal network has a large part in your purchase consideration.

Maybe he should have said honest instead of accurate. But really both apply. I don't care one bit about the opinions of any games journalist. I don't read their reviews or check their scores and I don't buy games based on their articles. I judge a game based on what other gamers think of it. Even if I could trust supposed games journalists opinions, they still wouldn't be as accurate as fellow gamers.

These guys are pretty much just undercover PR. I'm ok with that. Just drop the pretense of being serious about your job, give me the videos and the screenshots and repeat whatever bulletpoints where put in front of you. We all love the videos, screenshots, and bullet points on the features of an upcoming game. But lets not pretend that these sites, tv shows, and magazines are taking the job seriously, and that they arent influenced by freebies and ad buys.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

the likes of you will never, ever learn.

The likes of me got paid to write about games at one point in my life and I never once claimed to be a "games journalist" or some other bullshit, so don't try to pin something on me. I never cared who was advertising on our site, never once listened to an ad sales guy that requested I "take it easy" on a client, but I always understood what it took to make projects happen. Ad revenue is what makes a website survive, it also allows it freedom and flexibility to try new things.

The "likes of you" don't understand the economics of a media business and believe that accepting advertising revenue = immediate perjury.

The problem is that many (most) "games journalists" haven't had their "come to Jesus" moment and think they're Woodward and Bernstein. They write about a consumer product... and outside of a handful, don't conduct themselves as journalists.

So Powdered Toast, shove your condescending bullshit and choke on my condescending bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

These guys are pretty much just undercover PR. I'm ok with that. Just drop the pretense of being serious about your job, give me the videos and the screenshots and repeat whatever bulletpoints where put in front of you. We all love the videos, screenshots, and bullet points on the features of an upcoming game. But lets not pretend that these sites, tv shows, and magazines are taking the job seriously, and that they arent influenced by freebies and ad buys.

Ding ding ding. I'm ok with that too, and when I wrote, I was plenty ok with that. The guy's that hide behind the pretense of being journalists are kidding themselves and really hurting themselves in the long run.

I read game sites to get news and be entertained - I make my own product decisions, like you said I H8 Memes.

 

[JDSN]

The main problem with games journalism right now is that is just a step in the way of getting to better thing, not only it means that glorified bloggers will try to court a big publisher for a position in gaming some day, but the ones that are actually good and fair will also make the jump someday, perpetually making "games journalism" a club of mostly b-teams writers with a lot of mouthpieces.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Recently, the Games Media Awards rolled around again, and games journos turned up to a thing to party with their friends in games PR. Games PR people and games journos voted for their favourite friends, and friends gave awards to friends, and everyone had a good night out. Eurogamer won an award. Kieron Gillen was named an industry legend (and if anyone is a legend in games writing, he is) but he deserves a better platform for recognition than those GMAs. The GMAs shouldn't exist. By rights, that room should be full of people who feel uncomfortable in each other's company. PR people should be looking at games journos and thinking, "That person makes my job very challenging." Why are they all best buddies? What the hell is going on?

Throw in the close relationships with actual developers and you've got two of the bigger problems.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Accurate might not be the word, effective at influencing purchase for a product, yes.

Word of mouth is prone to whisper down the lane, so a message will likely be lost (the uninformed GameStop manager or personal friend that heard something through someone else); But there's plenty of research that shows your personal network has a large part in your purchase consideration.

True. For instance, I was a bit hesitant on Dishonored, but after seeing the hype on Twitter, I bought it and can't be happier. I am just very skeptical on reviews because of the exchange of money. However, if a game company lets people review their game in advance, I see that they have confidence in their product.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

True. For instance, I was a bit hesitant on Dishonored, but after seeing the hype on Twitter, I bought it and can't be happier. I am just very skeptical on reviews because of the exchange of money. However, if a game company lets people review their game in advance, I see that they have confidence in their product.

I'm with you 100% - ultimately it comes down to this, review authority doesn't exist anymore. In the 90s, you read the magazine reviews like they were the word of God because there was nothing else to tell you. Nowadays there are so many outlets to hear about a game, that a combination of sources should absolutely be considered.

That was my case with Dishonored as well - it wasn't until Twitter blew up that I really paid attention to it, and I'm glad I did.

 

[Ragingbegal]

The model games media should be following is sports reporting. In many case, sports journalism is even more in depth than much of our best political coverage. Reporters are certainly fans of the teams and athletes they write about, but are able to divorce themselves from that inherent bias in their work. It leads to consistently excellent articles and stories about the sports field, and their journalist don't shy away from controversy or damaging stories.

But games media are too often fans first and writers second. For example, wearing a team's logo or clothing in a press booth is a huge taboo in sports. But it's common see video game journalists don the gear of their favorite games and companies during E3. That's the kind of stuff that needs to stop first, and set the tone for quality improvements that would hopefully follow.

Edit: A lot of the problem is advertising, too. Most ads in Sports Illustrated or ESPN aren't for the teams themselves, but the ancillary products: jerseys, DVDs, sports drinks, etc. Far too many games media rely on games themselves for advertising revenue which creates an unhealthy relationship between the advertising and editorial departments. Outlets need to find new sponsors so they can cover news without fear of economic backlash.

 

[RedNumberFive]

It's caused quite a storm on Twitter.

I'm not skilled with the Twitters. How would I go about witnessing the backlash from journos and PR?

 

[JDSN]

I'm not skilled with the Twitters. How would I go about witnessing the backlash from journos and PR?

I doubt its gonna backlash, more like subtle jabs and masturbatory comments.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

Outlets need to find new sponsors so they can cover news without fear of economic backlash.

This is the HARDEST thing to do for websites for a variety of reasons:

- Scale - most enthusiast websites aren't large enough to get bigger clients/ad buys
- Demographic (M 18-34) - one of the most desirable audiences online, but when push comes to shove, few people will dedicate an ad buy to reach them.
- competition - too many small sites out there picking each other off instead of forming an ad buying network (and really, networks aren't desirable to advertising).
- Advertisers want to advertise against better content - content on game sites is really not something advertisers want to put themselves next to.

A few years ago CrispyGamer.com put their stake in the ground and said "We won't accept ads from endemic advertisers (game companies)" - they wanted to only run ads from a larger set of advertisers because they believed it was more stable. CrispyGamer collapsed when the market declined. And not just them, lots of sites that tried that method couldn't keep paying their staff when advertisers pulled back their dollars.

 

[Ragingbegal]

It would help too if people stopped thinking about Geoff Keighley as a journalist and started thinking about him as Ryan Seacrest, which is exactly what he is to this industry.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I doubt its gonna backlash, more like subtle jabs and masturbatory comments.

Even so, I'd love to be a witness to the bullshit. Any prolific tweeters I should be watching?

 

[JDSN]

It would help too if people stopped thinking about Geoff Keighley as a journalist and started thinking about him as Ryan Seacrest, which is exactly what he is to this industry.

Ryan Seacrest doesnt consider himself a journalist, and Geoff doesnt consider himself Ryan Seacrest.

 

[YuriLowell]

Advertisements are part of the payment, yes. Obviously. But you won´t see a CNN-reporter with a huge "vote for Democrats" sign behind him or sitting on a pile of junk food. There are certain standards within journalism.

I just have to wait 30 seconds for the ad to come on afterwards.

 

[SolidSnakex]

It would help too if people stopped thinking about Geoff Keighley as a journalist and started thinking about him as Ryan Seacrest, which is exactly what he is to this industry.

That's really doing a disservice to Geoff. His "The Final Hours of..." series is absolutely fantastic. Most people now just know him for GTTV and the Spike Awards, but they should really check out that series.

 

[megalowho]

The model games media should be following is sports reporting. In many case, sports journalism is even more in depth than much of our best political coverage. Reporters are certainly fans of the teams and athletes they write about, but are able to divorce themselves from that inherent bias in their work. It leads to consistently excellent articles and stories about the sports field, and their journalist don't shy away from controversy or damaging stories.

I agree with a lot of your points, but not so much about divorcing yourself from personal biases to be a more objective, and presumably better reporter. That just makes for dishonest writing, and as far as the sportswriters I read regularly it's usually absolutely clear who they root for and where they're coming from.

Acknowledging bias gives writers unique perspective so long as that's not all they're fixated on, plus it's honest. So maybe Lakers fans roll their eyes whenever Simmons waxes poetic about the Celtics glory days, at least everyone knows he's not trying to fool anyone with his opinions.

It would help too if people stopped thinking about Geoff Keighley as a journalist and started thinking about him as Ryan Seacrest, which is exactly what he is to this industry.

I consider him a TV producer and host, someone with a background in the gaming press that gets the enthusiast side of things but whose job it is to translate that sentiment as best as possible to a mainstream television audience. Navigating that minefield, appeasing know-it-all executives and creating a product that's still redeemable at the end of the day is not an enviable task. Any writing or reporting he does (Portal 2, etc) seems more like a break from his day job than anything else at this point, even if it's the most meaningful content to folks like us.

 

[mephixto]

I don't see what's the problem here. Geoff is more a gaming personality than a journalist. He's only endorsing his name to certain products, something that actors, sportmans, writers, etc do all the time.