A Link to the Past
Banned
Black actors being box office poison in China is a myth.
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Vulture: E-mail chain between Tilda Swinton and Margaret Cho on Dr. Strange casting
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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Black actors being box office poison in China is a myth.
Huh? They definitely could. The contention is that doing so would cause China to not allow the movie to be run in China.
old manatee
Banned
Gotta beat that DCCU at the box office at any cost..
slightconfuse
Banned
Didn't they cast swinton so they can release the movie in China?
I imagine that was a factor.
Cho here sounds like the kid at school who wanted to offer up hints of gossip and her self importance with Tilda just calling her public bluff in a starkly effective way.
Must be depressing to email someone and have it blow up in your face when Tilda sounds like someone who hates this style of publicity.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
If your methods include lying and smearing a person with no basis to your claims, then yes. I don't agree with your methods.
Puhlease. That's not a defensible thing.
hurricanes
Member
So Marvel has a weak sauce excuse for white washing and Ms. Cho is a two face snake.
Pretty much the only time China does care.
"How dare you talk about the country we occupied and took over!"
White supporting actors got bigger.
The black lead got smaller.
The Hispanic guy got removed.
What? Are you trolling?
Swinton seems genuinely well-intentioned here - if somewhat clumsy in her approach. Cho comes off as two-faced.
The conversation around her casting needs to happen, certainly. I would have preferred an Asian Ancient One even though Swinton nailed it. But I'm not entirely sure what Cho is hoping to achieve by dragging out polite and cordial private correspondance.
The conversation around her casting needs to happen, certainly. I would have preferred an Asian Ancient One even though Swinton nailed it. But I'm not entirely sure what Cho is hoping to achieve by dragging out polite and cordial private correspondance.
I don't think Cho factored in Swinton just saying 'Fuck it, here are the mails' rendering her innuendo rather impotent.
autumnleaf
Member
Reading those emails and now Cho's thoughts she doesn't come across well at all. Tilda was respectful in her approach, took a role and was the best part of the film.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Is it? Cho is an actor and comedian so it seems being asked for her opinion regarding a character's portrayal in a movie seems well within her wheelhouse.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
So your proof is marketing? What?
White supporting actors got bigger.
The black lead got smaller.
The Hispanic guy got removed.
Fast And Furious 7, one of the most diverse movies of all time, grossed $250 million in the span of 8 days in China.
Now this is how it was marketed:
I think it's right of Cho to bring up that it bugs her that she feels like the token Asian people come to with questions. But like a lot of things that feeling only appears in aggregate so calling out specific people who are making honest mistakes is ultimately unhelpful and looks bad.
You're damned if you do, damned if you don't these days. If she hadn't she'd no doubt get complaints about cultural appropriation.
White supporting actors got bigger.
The black lead got smaller.
The Hispanic guy got removed.
There seem to be quite a few changes. BB-8 got bigger while C3P0 got smaller... Ridley got smaller. Kylo Ren got smaller. Chewbacca got dropped.
Also, the Hispanic Guy was wearing a full pilot suit, so I'm not even sure why they would drop him (plus I doubt the average Chinese person could readily distinguish Hispanic vs White on a small chunk of movie poster).
Trying to tell a story of discrimination here is stretching things a bit thin (unless Chinese also discriminate against golden Robots, people in masks, or Wookies). Seems more likely they were trying to bank on Harrison Ford. Famous Hollywood actors go a lot farther in China.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Swinton comes off fine and Cho comes off as two-faced. Anyway, Marvel made a clear political decision in the casting here, which considering the circumstances I don't feel is whitewashing. If they kept the character Tibetan, they're cutting off a huge potential market. If they kept them Asian but not Tibetan, they would've gotten even more shit. And if the character was similar to the comic they would've been accused of horrible stereotyping. Marvel made the right call here.
Monocle
Member
Cho comes off as a jerk for trying to make Tilda look bad here. Why shame someone for sincerely looking for a different perspective? What has she accomplished by directly violating a reasonable request for privacy?
Yep.
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean it's still whitewashing...
EdwardTeach
Member
It was really polite to release these emails after agreeing to have a private discussion.
Swinton was great in the role.
Swinton was great in the role.
I mean if someone acknowledges an issue with race/diversity and wants to learn how best to approach it... what are they supposed to do if not reach out to someone of that background who's involved in the discussion?
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Swinton released them after Cho went public while disparaging her with made up BS.
I dont think this is a case of Tilda just reaching out to any random Asian she actress she can think of though. Cho is credited as being one of the lead voices of the "#whitewashedout" movement that directly targeted Dr. Strange and Ghost in the Shell earlier this year. So, presumably, she'd be the person to speak to regarding the issue.
Here's a CNN article about the hashtag. http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/03/media/whitewashedout-asians-in-hollywood/
She should've let everyone believe Cho's lies about her.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Lost a lot of respect for Cho here. What a douchebag move.
Oppo
Member
oh please
Cho fucked ip here, man. This email from Swinton fell over itself asking for help in a respectful way. she didn't have any. and then broke a trust? fuck her. that is just shitty all around.
she had no answers. she didn't even know the character. useless response and gossip.
Tilda was not casting the film. She has been attacked for breaking only 1 glass ceiling and not 2 or 3, as if it were up to her in the first place.
Cho fucked ip here, man. This email from Swinton fell over itself asking for help in a respectful way. she didn't have any. and then broke a trust? fuck her. that is just shitty all around.
she had no answers. she didn't even know the character. useless response and gossip.
Tilda was not casting the film. She has been attacked for breaking only 1 glass ceiling and not 2 or 3, as if it were up to her in the first place.
Count Dookkake
Member
You can't really blame Cho for her response. I mean, a white person was respectfully trying to do the right thing... the nerve!
Swinton's performance in Doctor Strange was the only thing I really liked about the film, having found it otherwise completely forgettable. She was absolutely fantastic in in the role.
I totally see the argument in regards to white-washing though, and the frustrations of Asian-American actors being consistently denied opportunities in Hollywood. Perhaps there's an alternate universe out there where Sandra Oh or somebody got the part of The Ancient One and absolutely killed it, but Tilda Swinton's always been one of my absolute favourite working actors and I really felt she did an amazing job with the character...so I mean honestly, it's hard for me to really lament Marvel making that particular choice.
Also, Cho talking about this in public after seeming to agree to keep the conversation private seems like a pretty shitty thing to do. Tilda was clearly reaching out to her in confidence, even if in doing so she might have came off as a bit patronizing.
I totally see the argument in regards to white-washing though, and the frustrations of Asian-American actors being consistently denied opportunities in Hollywood. Perhaps there's an alternate universe out there where Sandra Oh or somebody got the part of The Ancient One and absolutely killed it, but Tilda Swinton's always been one of my absolute favourite working actors and I really felt she did an amazing job with the character...so I mean honestly, it's hard for me to really lament Marvel making that particular choice.
Also, Cho talking about this in public after seeming to agree to keep the conversation private seems like a pretty shitty thing to do. Tilda was clearly reaching out to her in confidence, even if in doing so she might have came off as a bit patronizing.
Yeah, an Asian actor can play a role in such a way that doesn't produce a stereotype. Who would have thunk it?
It's the same argument they use for other minority roles, as if those non-white actors can't possibly have the same range as a their white counter-parts.
*rollseyes*
And_Gignac
Member
All I can say is that Tilda was phenomenal and the movie wouldn't have been the same without her excellent performance.
It is a complicated topic when there's this problematic background to a great role.
Yeah this too. As if every white actor being typically white is all of a sudden a stereotype.
It is a complicated topic when there's this problematic background to a great role.
Yeah this too. As if every white actor being typically white is all of a sudden a stereotype.
pokeystaples
Banned
.
Everyone hates being the token.
Exploratory
Banned
If she's publicizing a private email correspondence she comes off terribly. Period end dot. If she didn't want to speak for her race, which is entirely within her right and something I understand, she should've said no. I've done the same thing many times.
To add to that if Cho was a leading voice on this at the time it makes it even worse. This isn't a white person asking their Middle Eastern friend about Aleppo it's going straight to the source of national discussion.
And Marvel knows their shit because Tilda Swinton was absolutely perfect in that role.
Beyond that I've often struggled with the magical negro stereotype vs no negro at all. Sometimes I'd rather they didn't cast a black person if there just going to fulfill that trope for your average white male lead. But the real answer is for Hollywood to stop writing people into that role. Here I don't have a problem with it because the ancient one is already a predefined role.
To add to that if Cho was a leading voice on this at the time it makes it even worse. This isn't a white person asking their Middle Eastern friend about Aleppo it's going straight to the source of national discussion.
And Marvel knows their shit because Tilda Swinton was absolutely perfect in that role.
Beyond that I've often struggled with the magical negro stereotype vs no negro at all. Sometimes I'd rather they didn't cast a black person if there just going to fulfill that trope for your average white male lead. But the real answer is for Hollywood to stop writing people into that role. Here I don't have a problem with it because the ancient one is already a predefined role.
wesleyshark
Banned
Agreed. Though I'll say that about any Tilda role tbh. She's a great actress.
Cho was a leading figure in the social media conversation at the time. She wasn't just a random Asian person.
RustyNails
Member
Interestingly "vincent kapoor" played by Chiwitel Elijofor in The Martian was originally supposed to be an Indian engineer in books. We have hardly heard a peep about it because Indians are even less underrepresented. This shit got to end.
archangelmorph
Member
It really isn't though...
Swapping one minority role for another doesn't add anything really as far as diversity is concerned...
I guess that's the crux of the beef a lot of people seemed to have with this film in that regard...
Agreed. Seems like a pretty scummy thing to do. She didn't have to have the exchange. If she wanted so badly to not feel like a "house" Asian she could have kept what she saw as the perspective of Asian Americans to herself and ended the conversation. Tilda may have been embarrassed to reach out to a relative stranger and ask to be schooled on an issue she didn't know about. Why she couldn't just Google it, I dunno, but she didnt. She asked someone whose comedy is based on the plight of Asians so maybe she wanted to hear what Cho had to say about it more than the internet.
BronsonLee
Member
There was also Mindy Park which got played by a white lady
It died down because the author straight up he didn't give a fuck and also China loved the damn movie
A Link to the Past
Banned
Pretty much the only time China does care.
"How dare you talk about the country we occupied and took over!"
White supporting actors got bigger.
The black lead got smaller.
The Hispanic guy got removed.
What you're showing is that executives believe the myth.
Lets not get too far, shall we? /s
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