thekiddfran
Member
Wow GAF feels so different now.
So strange what a week can do eh?
So strange what a week can do eh?
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Waypoint: Inside the Sexual Misconduct Allegations Rocking NeoGAF's Last 48 Hours
- Thread starter Dineren
- Start date
Callibretto
Member
I never realized how hated neogaf was until the server are down and I look around for possible substitute.
That said, the places I look is mostly much worse than gaf and is very unwelcoming. I'm not even sure if gaf can ever retain the same vibe as it was before. But I'd rather stay here for now and see how it goes.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Are you kidding me, interview to the world and she doesn't even call it sexual assault? "Creepy thing" is not what victims of rape and sexual abuse call their incident. This girl playing yall. "He had already invited me to E3, I couldn't just say no" Nah, y'all not gonna trick me with this "outrage".
People have many complex reactions and feelings about those who hurt or abuse them. We've seen Evilore's history, we've seen how he's reacted since this became public. It all speaks volumes.
NHarmonic.
Member
Corronchilejano
Member
His reaction doesn't make him guilt of sexual assault or misconduct. It does however crash against the previous image he wanted to give to this forum.
It matters because the following behavior is not consistent with her claims. I can't think of any logical reason as to why you would have that kind of behaviour with someone who sexually assaulted/harassed you, but I can't think of several reasons that would lead someone to twisting the truth or only telling the convenient part in the internet. Look, I'm not saying she's lying, ok? I'm saying we don't know, and even if we take her words 100%, it still doesn't look like sexual harassment, though definitely misconduct that should be reprimanded, which she did.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Since we're isolating incidents without context, I'm giving this event the same courtesy. She sad no and he left.
I got into a fistfight with a guy in highschool. Year later and he's one of my best friends. Things don't always work how you expect them to.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Did you fight him again? And go back to being friends after?
Not even remotely the same. Are you saying getting into a fistfight is comparable to being sexually harassed? Don't go there.
It's cool if you don't believe me - PM and I'll give his FB and mine.
Just saying things don't always happen as you expect them to. Don't go there suggesting I'm trying to equal out the two.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
You're going places and making assumptions you shouldn't. Don't go there.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Nah I believe you, guys do this all the time. I'm asking did he try to bully you again afterwards, and did you guys fistfight and make up again.
Considering that's not what happened, no.
Did you read other #metoo stories?
The hashtag isn't about rape or sexual abuse.
LordKasual
Banned
it's astounding how fighting can sometimes make people closer
with guys, anyway. Dont think ive ever heard of that happening with chicks
Where did she say that?
Well, you DID compare the situations, otherwise you would have no point in the first place.
But regardless, the situation isn't comparable at all for multiple reasons. Were you already close when you got into the fistfight? Did you or the person was put in a position of bullying or humiliation because one side was clearly in a privileged position? Were you traumatized by the event? Did you start your friendship soon afterwards?
Not the same.
From my other post:
Just saying things don't always happen as you expect them to.
Don't take it as anything more than that.
She didn't. That's the point. It didn't stop many people from claiming that's exactly what he did.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
GAF is not going anywhere. There's no other place like it $$$$
NHarmonic.
Member
Every mod left. All of them. All of the major OT posters quit or were banned.
Is it fair to even call this GAF anymore?
FullMetalx117
Member
It shouldn't be condoned what Evilore did (a clear misread of the situation). But the girl continued to go on trips to him and even had a relationship with him later on despite what he did. Is everyone just overlooking this fact? Clearly she didn't really take what happened seriously after the fact and it wasn't until she was a few years removed as an ex where she decides to come out about how offended she was about this. Come on man...
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
More will replace them. This place has people lining up to enter. People who don't care about things like this at all and just want to "game". Unfortunate, but it's gonna happen.
We are still talking about video games aren't we? That's what this place has always been about. Video games.
It's not just about this incident. Evilore has a long history of assault, intimidation, and abuse. Even on here.
Revolutionary
Member
Not all of them left. The ones that left were primarily the ones that turned this website into shit over the past few years (namely, besada). Good riddance, I say.
We had an official count of 12 who quit in protest.
That isn't all of them. You know that, right?
YankeeDonB
Member
This is a weird situation.
A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.
Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.
This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.
One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).
But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.
But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.
None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.
The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.
I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).
All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.
A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.
Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.
This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.
One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).
But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.
But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.
None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.
The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.
I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).
All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Yea, with only 1 forum up right now, GAF will be fine, a tad more energetic. We'll call this attitude era gaf.
Whats with the junior bashing, I'm a junior does that make my opinion less valid.
Human Trashcan
Banned
evilore doesn't deny, repeatedly accuses his victim of being mentally ill and making shit up, and proceeds to blame everything on "all the politics".
What kind of pig jumps in the shower fully naked with someone who's puking drunk?
Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.
What kind of pig jumps in the shower fully naked with someone who's puking drunk?
Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.
It goes without question it will go in a much much more right-wing leaning direction as almost the entirety of the major OT posters are gone.
The problem here is that you can't just make things up and state them like facts
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Is there even a single instance of a woman being silenced on GAF?
King Tubby
Member
Someone would probably link to a really prominent example of it happening a lot in a thread on Offtopic if that part of the forum weren't nuked.
I agree. He always takes the time and research his topic. I love reading his articles.
just joining us, huh
I've already jumped to at least one of the "substitutes", but is that really a sustainable and enforceable standard?
Do I have to boycott virtually all TVs and movies because of the rampant sexual harassment that happens at both the director and producer level?
Do I have to boycott the entire Japanese games industry because of the awful working environments and standards, and its multitude of different harassments?
I don't care about the mods and owners of various sites I go to, or the producers and management of entertainment media, and I tend to avoid an kind of social/cultural discussion on GAF/reddit/gamefaqs/wherever like the plague.
Okay, read that article.
Before that i thought Evillore was raping somebody, reading all that crazy stuff here from people.
Guys, he was just making a move on some girl he thought wanted to have sex with him.
Apparently he backed off when she made clear that she didn't want to fuck with him, like any dude with some morals should do.
I don't see anything wrong that happened.
Sorry, but a lot of people are completely overreacting here.
add: *slow clap* for the goatse account suicide...
I have to agree here and honestly even though it sounds like Evilore is kind of a jerk I think this is an over reaction. After reading HER OWN ACCOUNT I can absolutely understand why he was confused about this whole thing. I mean they actually did sleep together and then later shared a bed! The original post that started this whole thing is IMO absolutely disingenuous with its lack of detail