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[Resident_UA]

This is a weird situation.

A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.

Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.

This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.

One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).

But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.

But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.

None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.

The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.

I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).

All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.

I think one piece that you are missing is how horribly this situation was handled (especially when it comes to Tyler talking to moderators)... It would never have been 100% well handled, but it was handled in a worse way possible. In either scenario I would like NeoGaf to exist, but I'm guessing it will never be the same.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I think she stretched the truth in her original statement. She said that he was being really shitty to her after the shower incident and that their relationship deteriorated afterwards, but obviously that was a lie, so with that in mind here's my theory on what happened.

1. They're alone and drunk together at a hotel, Tyler probably knows about her open relationship, and I'm guessing he didn't know about her "girls only" rule in regards to that.

2. He goes into the shower, I'm guessing he probably misread some signals, or she decided last minute she wasn't going to sleep with him after all if it really went as far as she said it did. Anyways, something happened, and at the end of it they were able to move past it on decent terms.

3. They go to E3 together soon after and between the shower incident and E3, they get into a sorta-relationship (or at least a friends with benefits situation).

4. They're relationship deteriorates during this time. He says it's due to jealousy of another girl, she says it's because he was being an aggressive dick. Either way, they stop seeing each other and block each other on social media.

5. At some point in the future, in the wave of the #MeToo campaign, she mentions her encounter with him in the shower. Maybe at the time it wasn't a huge deal to her since she was able to move past it and get into a relationship with him, but in retrospect, and with knowing what they're relationship would become, she decided it wasn't a consensual encounter and talks about it. The rest is history.

My take in all of this is that Tyler made a mistake going into that shower when he did. Even if he read some signals, if both parties were as drunk as they were, it's best not to do anything either person might not remember. However, I'm not going to call him a sexual predator like a lot of people on here are doing. The situation seems a lot more complicated than that, and it at the very least there wasn't any unwanted physical contact.

At the very worst, he misread some signals, went into a shower, and was told to leave. They made up afterwards, and according to both of them, their relationship deteriorated due to events that were unrelated to the shower incident.

And then he went to Waypoint and said that she had a mental illness. He also confirmed that the story of him groping a woman in Spain was true and proceeded to give two, conflicting versions of those events.

At the very worst he misread the situation and then felt compelled to defend himself by making the exact same sort of discrediting attacks and incoherent justifications that predatory men make.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Whew. This thread is something else. Y'all have some pretty fucked up views on acceptable ways to progress things with a woman. Jumping into a shower with someone nude is just part of the game? Just... Whew.

 

[caffeware]

She says he was helping her with her career as a director. Introducing her to people. Malka runs a very popular entertainment site. For someone trying to get in edgewise, a Gaf thread could be the difference between a video going viral or not.



Have you never used a pre-existing future milestone to justify a decision? My point is that people who have had bad things happen to them often make bad decisions. It's why the compounding effects of sexual abuse that van derail a person's life so completely.



So you have this bad, incongruous thing in your life. Something that you would feel guilty for bringing up to others. You would feel bad saying it publicly because you know it would only lead to trouble and you don't even feel comfortable bringing it up as sexual abuse to your close friends because you know some of them have way worse stories and yours feels insignificant compared to what they have faced.

So the best thing would be for this to just go away. The best way for it to go away if for the man involved to not be a predatory creep. For him to just be an awkward, but well meaning guy who finds you attractive. So maybe that's what you try to tell yourself. That he is a well meaning guy who finds you attractive. From there, maybe you give him another chance.

Sorry, but if someone is hurting me I would keep away from him/her as soon as possible. Specially, when its a non filial completely optional relationship.

You don't ever think: "wait, I can't stop contact, because he already bought tickets to e3." That just shows lack of character.

You dont gamble being raped/molested (again), because you want to go to e3.

 

[Foxtastical]

And then he went to Waypoint and said that she had a mental illness. He also confirmed that the story of him groping a woman in Spain was true and proceeded to give two, conflicting versions of those events.

At the very worst he misread the situation and then felt compelled to defend himself by making the exact same sort of discrediting attacks and incoherent justifications that predatory men make.

His response was really disappointing. Unfortunately, his response was exactly what I was hoping he wouldn't do.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Sorry, but if someone is hurting me I would keep away from him/her as soon as possible. Specially, when its a non filial completely optional relationship.

You don't ever think: "wait, I can't stop contact, because he already bought tickets to e3." That just shows lack of character.

You dont gamble being raped/molested (again), because you want to go to e3.

Shit takes time to process. Sometimes we try to trick ourselves into thinking that something isn't as bad as you thought it was. Not everyone wants to immediately assume a friend is a bad person. She said she noticed a pattern of abusive behavior with him over time and looking back, the shower thing was pretty fucked up. There's a large part of gaf right now who are bending over backwards for a dude they've never met because they like what he's giving them right now.

Again, whew.

 

[Goodstyle]

And then he went to Waypoint and said that she had a mental illness. He also confirmed that the story of him groping a woman in Spain was true and proceeded to give two, conflicting versions of those events.

At the very worst he misread the situation and then felt compelled to defend himself by making the exact same sort of discrediting attacks and incoherent justifications that predatory men make.

Oh, I'm not defending his actions in Spain or his article response (his emotional reaction really cast him in a bad light IMO). I'm focusing 100% on his relationship with Ima Leupp here, which caused all this in the first place. Based on what we know, Malka pulled a "Naked Man" ala How I Met Your Mother (although what was done on HIMYM for laughs might have been even worse, sitcoms are kind of fucked up lol), they moved passed it and got into a relationship, and then it deteriorated from there.

Sometimes people misread signals, it happens. He didn't physically force himself on Leupp and listened to her when she told him to leave, and all of their sexual contact after the shower incident was consensual. What went wrong in that relationship wasn't what went down in the shower.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Oh, I'm not defending his actions in Spain or his article response (his emotional reaction really cast him in a bad light IMO). I'm focusing 100% on his relationship with Ima Leupp here, which caused all this in the first place. Based on what we know, Malka pulled a "Naked Man" ala How I Met Your Mother (although what was done on HIMYM for laughs might have been even worse, sitcoms are kind of fucked up lol), they moved passed it and got into a relationship, and then it deteriorated from there.

Sometimes people misread signals, it happens. He didn't physically force himself on Leupp and listened to her when she told him to leave, and all of their sexual contact after the shower incident was consensual. What went wrong in that relationship wasn't what went down in the shower.

No, it started in the shower and was representative of an overall bigger problem with EL. She says how her saying no helped snowball shit in the wrong direction after that. The funny thing is,she obviously DID give EL a second chance and now she regrets that because of his bad behavior afterwards that built on the first incident.

 

[itxaka]

Oh, I'm not defending his actions in Spain or his article response (his emotional reaction really cast him in a bad light IMO). I'm focusing 100% on his relationship with Ima Leupp here, which caused all this in the first place. Based on what we know, Malka pulled a "Naked Man" ala How I Met Your Mother (although what was done on HIMYM for laughs might have been even worse, sitcoms are kind of fucked up lol), they moved passed it and got into a relationship, and then it deteriorated from there.

Sometimes people misread signals, it happens. He didn't physically force himself on Leupp and listened to her when she told him to leave, and all of their sexual contact after the shower incident was consensual. What went wrong in that relationship wasn't what went down in the shower.

TBH he is lying about Spain, and he has since day one. His account of things has nothing to do with how that went over, introducing concepts like "she was all over me" and "she started getting physical first" as to excuse his actions or reduce the impact of them.

Tyler is a liar because he is incapable of saying "Im sorry I fucked up". So its logical to think that he is also lying regarding this.

 

[Jake]

Even if it is somewhat true, he deserves a second chance, people have done worse. Besides that point, we need to hear from he man himself in full, as there is 2 sides to the story.

A person getting a second chance, and that person deserving our patronage of their business, are two different things.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

A person getting a second chance, and that person deserving our patronage of their business, are two different things.

EL has had lots of chances.

 

[PhantomThief]

I think she stretched the truth in her original statement. She said that he was being really shitty to her after the shower incident and that their relationship deteriorated afterwards, but obviously that was a lie, so with that in mind here's my theory on what happened.

1. They're alone and drunk together at a hotel, Tyler probably knows about her open relationship, and I'm guessing he didn't know about her "girls only" rule in regards to that.

2. He goes into the shower, I'm guessing he probably misread some signals, or she decided last minute she wasn't going to sleep with him after all if it really went as far as she said it did. Anyways, something happened, and at the end of it they were able to move past it on decent terms.

3. They go to E3 together soon after and between the shower incident and E3, they get into a sorta-relationship (or at least a friends with benefits situation).

4. They're relationship deteriorates during this time. He says it's due to jealousy of another girl, she says it's because he was being an aggressive dick. Either way, they stop seeing each other and block each other on social media.

5. At some point in the future, in the wave of the #MeToo campaign, she mentions her encounter with him in the shower. Maybe at the time it wasn't a huge deal to her since she was able to move past it and get into a relationship with him, but in retrospect, and with knowing what they're relationship would become, she decided it wasn't a consensual encounter and talks about it. The rest is history.

My take in all of this is that Tyler made a mistake going into that shower when he did. Even if he read some signals, if both parties were as drunk as they were, it's best not to do anything either person might not remember. However, I'm not going to call him a sexual predator like a lot of people on here are doing. The situation seems a lot more complicated than that, and it at the very least there wasn't any unwanted physical contact.

At the very worst, he misread some signals, went into a shower, and was told to leave. They made up afterwards, and according to both of them, their relationship deteriorated due to events that were unrelated to the shower incident.

Except Malka didnt say he misread the signals.

He said she's crazy.

He said she's mentally unstable.

 

[Rogan]

A person getting a second chance, and that person deserving our patronage of their business, are two different things.

It's a paradox. I like GAF but I don't want to support Evilore if the allegations are true.

 

[Jake]

It's a paradox. I like GAF but I don't want to support Evilore if the allegations are true.

This whole thing is a reminder that places like GAF aren't public places, they're owned by one (or a handful of) people. If the community is what matters to you, wait until the dust settles and find the place most people you're interested in talking with have moved to, and go there. There's no benefit to continuing to support GAF IMO, at least not right now. It's owner will be fine and continue to live his life and self improve or not on his own time, but he doesn't need all of our ad eyeballs to do that.

 

[Goodstyle]

No, it started in the shower and was representative of an overall bigger problem with EL. She says how her saying no helped snowball shit in the wrong direction after that. The funny thing is,she obviously DID give EL a second chance and now she regrets that because of his bad behavior afterwards that built on the first incident.

Are you saying that when they were in a relationship, part of what destroyed it was Tyler still holding a grudge about her not initially sleeping with him before and only doing it later? I guess that can be true, I have no idea what went down between them after, and I think that's the biggest missing piece. What happened when they were sorta-dating?

TBH he is lying about Spain, and he has since day one. His account of things has nothing to do with how that went over, introducing concepts like "she was all over me" and "she started getting physical first" as to excuse his actions or reduce the impact of them.

Tyler is a liar because he is incapable of saying "Im sorry I fucked up".

He could use some humility, but if he admitted to grabbing a woman's ass without her consent, how do you think GAF would have received that? He would have been labeled a sexual predator and people would argue he should be jailed for sexual assault. I'm not saying they're right or wrong in thinking that, but that's the sort of environment GAF became, and that's not an environment that's conducive to people admitting to fuckups like that.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

A person getting a second chance, and that person deserving our patronage of their business, are two different things.

And this isn't a 2nd chance.

 

[boiled goose]

The defense has been that the allegations are completely fabricated.

Tough situation here. Response just been tactless.

I feel evidence needs to be presented. Character witnesses. Etc.

 

[Jake]

And this isn't a 2nd chance.

All I meant is, he can get as many chances as he wants on his own time, but the GAF community doesn't owe him continued support or patronage either way.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Are you saying that when they were in a relationship, part of what destroyed it was Tyler still holding a grudge about her not initially sleeping with him before and only doing it later? I guess that can be true, I have no idea what went down between them after, and I think that's the biggest missing piece. What happened when they were sorta-dating?

She says that he became petty and even at a later point started ignoring her for other women while still supposedly being with her because he was mad at her.

He could use some humility, but if he admitted to grabbing a woman's ass without her consent, how do you think GAF would have received that? He would have been labeled a sexual predator and argue he should be jailed for sexual assault. I'm not saying they're right or wrong in thinking that, but that's the sort of environment GAF became, and that's not an environment that's conducive to people admitting fuckups like that.

People gave him the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake or a one time incident. Some have called him a hypocritical creeper for years because of that incident.

 

[caffeware]

There's a large part of gaf right now who are bending over backwards for a dude they've never met because they like what he's giving them right now.

Can you be more specific.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

All I meant is, he can get as many chances as he wants on his own time, but the GAF community doesn't owe him continued support or patronage either way.

Yeah I was agreeing with you. But people keep saying he deserves a second chance when there's a longer pattern of behavior to show for it.

 

[Staccat0]

Holy shit... I was just coming to inspect the damage and suddenly... I just realized I KNOW the accuser.

I wasn't planning on posting ever again, and I won't be after this, but holy shit.

Anyway, later ya'll.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Can you be more specific.

Well, for one, EL let the forums explode putting every single poster in a disadvantaged state, but supposed love for Neogaf means some people are willing to look the other way so they don't lose something he provides them. They're willing to carry EL's fuck up because they're getting something out of it, not because they actually care about the dude.

 

[shoelacer]

Holy shit... I was just coming to inspect the damage and suddenly... I just realized I KNOW the accuser.

I wasn't planning on posting ever again, and I won't be after this, but holy shit.

Anyway, later ya'll.

Is she as nuts as Lore says?

 

[Neoweee]

Yeah I was agreeing with you. But people keep saying he deserves a second chance when there's a longer pattern of behavior to show for it.

Yeah, this was Malka's second chance in at least four categories:

- His treatment of women.
- His ability to handle controversies for the forum.
- His ability to shield the volunteer mods from controversy.
- His ability to live up to the high, high standards of behavior that he ruthlessly enforced on the forum.

There's so many angles of attack and resentment here that I can kind of understand how it turned into such a conflagration so quickly. He also fostered a pitchforks-first attitude that not-surprisingly got turned against him.

 

[Goodstyle]

She says that he became petty and even at a later point started ignoring her for other women while still supposedly being with her because he was mad at her.

It's a he said/she said situation though. Both claim he started having a growing interest in other women while they were together, but that could just be him wanting to sleep with other women. She interpreted his wondering attention as payback for the shower incident, but maybe he just wanted to hook up with another woman? And he interpreted her annoyance with his wondering attention with her being jealous even though they were in an open relationship.

There are 3 possibilities here.

1: He's lying and he was just trying to hook up with other woman as payback for only sleeping with him later.
2: She's lying, and she was jealous of him looking at other women.
3: They're both being honest and misread each other's signals. She thinks he was giving her payback, he thinks she was being jealous.

Occam's razor suggests that she probably was just jealous though. He only started ignoring her for other women when other women started entering his radar, and maybe he was holding a grudge for her not sleeping with him sooner, but it's far more likely he, like many men before him, wanted to sleep with other women.

People gave him the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake or a one time incident. Some have called him a hypocritical creeper for years because of that incident.

That's fair enough. I wasn't active in GAF back then, I wouldn't know. I just know now what the environment became.

 

[Jake]

Occam's razor suggests that she probably was just jealous though

Your razor's got a pretty heavy bend to it. Might want to get it checked out.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

t's a he said/she said situation though. Both claim he started having a growing interest in other women while they were together, but that could just be him wanting to sleep with other women. She interpreted his wondering attention as payback for the shower incident, but maybe he just wanted to hook up with another woman? And he interpreted her annoyance with his wondering attention with her being jealous even though they were in an open relationship.

There are 3 possibilities here.

1: He's lying and he was just trying to hook up with other woman as payback for only sleeping with him later.
2: She's lying, and she was jealous of him looking at other women.
3: They're both being honest and misread each other's signals. She thinks he was giving her payback, he thinks she was being jealous.

Occam's razor suggests that she probably was just jealous though. He only started ignoring him for other women when other women started entering his radar, and maybe he was holding a grudge for her not sleeping with him sooner, but it's far more likely he, like many men before him, wanted to sleep with other women.



That's fair enough. I wasn't in GAF back then, I wouldn't know. I just know now what the environment became.

Remember that she didn't intend for this to become public. Her friends put this out there after she revealed it on a private fb account. She's just processing the entire situation. Yes, This sounds complicated, but EL response to the situation definitely shows hostility and gives her story a lot of credibility. She didn't start this looking to hurt EL, but he's gone on public record to call her mentally ill.

 

[itxaka]

Are you saying that when they were in a relationship, part of what destroyed it was Tyler still holding a grudge about her not initially sleeping with him before and only doing it later? I guess that can be true, I have no idea what went down between them after, and I think that's the biggest missing piece. What happened when they were sorta-dating?



He could use some humility, but if he admitted to grabbing a woman's ass without her consent, how do you think GAF would have received that? He would have been labeled a sexual predator and people would argue he should be jailed for sexual assault. I'm not saying they're right or wrong in thinking that, but that's the sort of environment GAF became, and that's not an environment that's conducive to people admitting to fuckups like that.

Spain incident was a few years back, gaf was more relaxed back then, sexual harassment (sadly) was not such a prominent thing, and people laughed in threads that would not fly today.

So no, they would not being labeled a sexual predator or that he should be jailed at all. Sounds like another excuse for his behavior. He fucked up, he should have admitted and confront the fallback. Instead he choose to lie and ban people to silence any accusations.

 

[Goodstyle]

Your razor's got a pretty heavy bend to it. Might want to get it checked out.

Honestly, please elaborate for me. There are 2 scenarios presented here:

1) That he started showing more attention to other women because he wanted to get back at her for not sleeping with him sooner.

2) His eyes wandered because he wanted to sleep with other women independent to the past he has with the woman he was currently sleeping with.

I've never heard of a guy who wanted revenge for the former, and the latter seems way more likely. Some guys just grow bored of their current relationship and want to move on to others, and they were Friends With Benefits/in an open relationship. This doesn't seem terribly unlikely.

Also, you have to ask yourself why it bothered her so much that he was ignoring her. It could be the belief that it was because of the shower incident, but it seems far more likely that she simply wanted him to pay more attention to her as apposed to other women, because problems only came when other women entered the equation.

If I'm wrong, please tell me why, but if you look at it logically, my scenario seems the most likely.

Spain incident was a few years back, gaf was more relaxed back then, sexual harassment (sadly) was not such a prominent thing, and people laughed in threads that would not fly today.

So no, they would not being labeled a sexual predator or that he should be jailed at all. Sounds like another excuse for his behavior. He fucked up, he should have admitted and confront the fallback. Instead he choose to lie and ban people to silence any accusations.

That's fair. Even with the potential blowback, he should have just apologized and owned up to what he did. Banning people and retreating wasn't the way to go.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Honestly, please elaborate for me. There are 2 scenarios presented here:

1) That he started showing more attention to other women because he wanted to get back at her for not sleeping with him sooner.

2) His eyes wandered because he wanted to sleep with other women independent to the past he has with the woman he was currently sleeping with.

I've never heard of a guy who wanted revenge for the former, and the latter seems way more likely. Some guys just grow bored of their current relationship and want to move on to others, and they were Friends With Benefits/in an open relationship. This doesn't seem terribly unlikely.

Also, you have to ask yourself why it bothered her so much that he was ignoring her. It could be the belief that it was because of the shower incident, but it seems far more likely that she simply wanted him to pay more attention to her as apposed to other women, because problems only came when other women entered the equation.

If I'm wrong, please tell me why, but if you look at it logically, my scenario seems the most likely.



That's fair. Even with the potential blowback, he should have just apologized and owned up to what he did. Banning people and retreating wasn't the way to go.

It was a pattern of abuse. Not saying he was punishing her later for the shower, just that she saw that the way he acted after the shower (irrational anger at her, defensive and dismissive) was his go-to later for other offenses. This made her realize he was a predator and that the shower thing which she had convinced herself earlier wasn't a big deal was actually her being a victim without realizing it.

 

[Goodstyle]

It was a pattern of abuse. Not saying he was punishing her later for the shower, just that she saw that the way he acted after the shower (irrational anger at her, defensive and dismissive) was his go-to later for other offenses. This made her realize he was a predator and that the shower thing which she had convinced herself earlier wasn't a big deal was actually her being a victim without realizing it.

This... isn't a bad explanation for what happened from her side of things. The key is knowing what really went down while they were semi-dating, but as of now, this is a pretty good theory.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

This... isn't a bad explanation for what happened from her side of things. The key is knowing what really went down while they were semi-dating, but as of now, this is a pretty good theory.

Just remember, whether it's true or not, that's her side of the story and EL called her mentally ill for it. Unfortunate.

 

[Staccat0]

Is she as nuts as Lore says?

I wasn't gonna say anything else, but I realized that leaving it like that is kinda shitty.

I'll just put it this way: It's not my place to serve as some sort of character witness. I know her through other people professionally, but we aren't directly friends. I don't wanna say much more.

I can't speak to what she might be like in those situations, but realizing who it is doesn't make it any harder to trust the accuser over a random video game guy I don't know anything about either.

I just thought it was interesting. I'll probably reach out to a mutual friend, but I don't plan on coming back with updates or anything like that.

Alright. Fer'real this time. See ya'll on the Waypoint forums or whatever.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

This... isn't a bad explanation for what happened from her side of things. The key is knowing what really went down while they were semi-dating, but as of now, this is a pretty good theory.

I've dated someone who abused me before, because it didn't feel like abuse at the time that it happened. Just a miscommunication, misunderstanding etc. We talked through it, she seemed genuinely sorry and we built a relationship from what I thought was a mutual understanding that it wouldn't happen again.

Then when things went south and it happened again, repeatedly, it became obvious that the initial incident was part of a long series of behavioral issues and that the person I thought was just socially awkward was actually an abusive sociopath.

 

[mckmas8808]

WHOA! That was a crazy read. My mind is blown.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I think one piece that you are missing is how horribly this situation was handled (especially when it comes to Tyler talking to moderators)... It would never have been 100% well handled, but it was handled in a worse way possible. In either scenario I would like NeoGaf to exist, but I'm guessing it will never be the same.

Fair point -- I was actually intending to write something about that but got rhetorically side tracked.

From what I can glean, the situation HAS been handled quite poorly. Taking Tyler's comments about the situation in the article as the primary example, EVEN assuming everything he says is true (which I'm not assuming either way), I don't think it's very humane to post these sorts of statements about someone else's mental health. That's personal stuff, I shouldn't even be party to all that (again, assuming it's even true). Particularly given that the woman has stated that she did not originally intend for her statement to be made public. Tyler's statement reads like what you might say to close friends while discussing an interpersonal situation like this one regarding someone everybody knows. If none of what he says is true in the first place, it's really nasty to make these sorts of implications. If there's some truth to some of what he says, emotionally, I guess I can get that, having had one's own messy interpersonal stuff dragged out into the public sphere, one's response might naturally be to try and adjudicate it and address it in a personal way.

Also, I don't know how I'd respond (though I can recognize the enormous stress) to this sort of broad public social shaming. We're animals, and we evolved to live in groups of 100 or so, and rely on them for our livelihood, and social ostracization was often a death sentence in human history/primate evolutionary history. By opening up our "social" sphere to the public at large, we invite a scale of feedback we're not neurobiologically equipped to appropriately contextualize and deal with. In lay terms, we get totally freaked out because social death feels adjacent to real death.

I'm going to hang around for a bit and see how things shake out. If Tyler goes to the mat on trying to take down the woman who made the accusations (as opposed to just trying to defend himself), then certainly that will affect where I end up....

 

[StreetDisciple]

That's what I read as well. My mind is blown that so many people are acting this way.

I mean she has a boyfriend yet she is getting fucked up alone in a hotel room with Tyler? Yet surprised and outraged that he hopped in the shower with her?

The questions I have are:

1. Did her boyfriend know she was on a trip with Tyler?
If not you are sending one hell of a message to Tyler that you would leave your boyfriend without his knowledge on a trip with another man.

2. Did her boyfriend know that they would share a hotel room?
Another strong signal to Tyler that you are down for whatever. I mean the dude is not gay afaik, so why are you so comfortable sharing a room? You couldn't get your own?

It also sounds like when he made his advance (while an out of line advance) she said no, and he left. He had an attitude with her afterwards, so what. I would be pissed too if I thought I was going to get some action and didn't. I guess no one else has experienced this anger.

She also keeps throwing the word friend around. If he was so much in the friend zone, why didn't your boyfriend know about this? Why are you sneaking around in a hotel rooms with another man?

We need to chill the fuck out here. We don't know the details and jumping to conclusions is really frightening on either side.

I am by no means trying to defend Tyler but acting like we know what all the details is troubling too.

 

[Journey]

None of those things constitute consent in the incident at hand and the idea that any of them might is the kind of victim blaming that prevents so many women from speaking up

So let's put it this way:

1) You're with a girl that you like, you go out for drinks, you both get drunk, you both check into the same room.

2) The girl goes to the bathroom and starts taking a shower; leaves the door open.

3) At this point you might not know she's sick or puking, you just hear the shower running. (We don't know the body language that took place earlier, You might have gotten signs that she was sexually into you and you already knew she's in an open relationship, aka don't appear to be off limits, especially after checking into the same room instead of her own).

4) You then make the wrong call and proceed to join her in the shower... what were you thinking?! She says, NO!

5) This is the pivotal moment... You don't force yourself on her, don't insist or put up a struggle in any way, but instead step back immediately, you both have a conversation about the incident and you acknowledge it was a mistake, after all you were both very drunk. You both put it behind you and determine you'll continue to be friends, which later turns into a consensual sexual relationship.

6) #Metoo is created over the Harvey Weinstein incident and the person decides to share a moment that she experienced and mentions the incident which she simply labeled as "Creepy" and not sexual assault.


This sounds to me like what took place based on what I've read so far. Does this constitute sexual assault? we'll see what the courts determine, if there's even a case brought. The way he's handling it is another story and maybe why the meltdown is taking place, but let's not lose focus of the facts.

 

[The Pope]

So let's put it this way:

1) You're with a girl that you like, you go out for drinks, you both get drunk, you both check into the same room.

2) The girl goes to the bathroom and starts taking a shower; leaves the door open.

3) At this point you might not know she's sick or puking, you just hear the shower running. (We don't know the body language that took place earlier, You might have gotten signs that she was sexually into you and you already knew she's in an open relationship, aka don't appear to be off limits, especially after checking into the same room instead of her own).

4) You then make the wrong call and proceed to join her in the shower... what were you thinking?! She says, NO!

5) This is the pivotal moment... You don't force yourself on her, don't insist or put up a struggle in any way, but instead step back immediately, you both have a conversation about the incident and you acknowledge it was a mistake, after all you were both very drunk. You both put it behind you and determine you'll continue to be friends, which later turns into a consensual sexual relationship.

6) #Metoo is created over the Harvey Weinstein incident and the person decides to share a moment that she experienced and mentions the incident which she simply labeled as "Creepy" and not sexual assault.


This sounds to me like what took place based on what I've read so far. Does this constitute sexual assault? we'll see what the courts determine, if there's even a case brought. The way he's handling it is another story and maybe why the meltdown is taking place, but let's not lose focus of the facts.

Yep.

Not comfortable with the Revenge Porn stuff or the uncalled for bans, though.

 

[Hermii]

So let's put it this way:

1) You're with a girl that you like, you go out for drinks, you both get drunk, you both check into the same room.

2) The girl goes to the bathroom and starts taking a shower; leaves the door open.

3) At this point you might not know she's sick or puking, you just hear the shower running. (We don't know the body language that took place earlier, You might have gotten signs that she was sexually into you and you already knew she's in an open relationship, aka don't appear to be off limits, especially after checking into the same room instead of her own).

4) You then make the wrong call and proceed to join her in the shower... what were you thinking?! She says, NO!

5) This is the pivotal moment... You don't force yourself on her, don't insist or put up a struggle in any way, but instead step back immediately, you both have a conversation about the incident and you acknowledge it was a mistake, after all you were both very drunk. You both put it behind you and determine you'll continue to be friends, which later turns into a consensual sexual relationship.

6) #Metoo is created over the Harvey Weinstein incident and the person decides to share a moment that she experienced and mentions the incident which she simply labeled as "Creepy" and not sexual assault.


This sounds to me like what took place based on what I've read so far. Does this constitute sexual assault? we'll see what the courts determine, if there's even a case brought. The way he's handling it is another story and maybe why the meltdown is taking place, but let's not lose focus of the facts.

Even if this is what took place, calling her malicious and mentally ill is the worst possible way to defend himself,

 

[Aselith]

I mean she has a boyfriend yet she is getting fucked up alone in a hotel room with Tyler? Yet surprised and outraged that he hopped in the shower with her?

The questions I have are:

1. Did her boyfriend know she was on a trip with Tyler?
If not you are sending one hell of a message to Tyler that you would leave your boyfriend without his knowledge on a trip with another man.

2. Did her boyfriend know that they would share a hotel room?
Another strong signal to Tyler that you are down for whatever. I mean the dude is not gay afaik, so why are you so comfortable sharing a room? You couldn't get your own?

It also sounds like when he made his advance (while an out of line advance) she said no, and he left. He had an attitude with her afterwards, so what. I would be pissed too if I thought I was going to get some action and didn't. I guess no one else has experienced this anger.

She also keeps throwing the word friend around. If he was so much in the friend zone, why didn't your boyfriend know about this? Why are you sneaking around in a hotel rooms with another man?

We need to chill the fuck out here. We don't know the details and jumping to conclusions is really frightening on either side.

I am by no means trying to defend Tyler but acting like we know what all the details is troubling too.

Jesus. Women being willing to trust men that they are friends with does not make it right when the men break that trust and act like shitbirds. And yes, her boyfriend knew in both cases but he trusted Tyler as well.

I guess they were both wrong so it's their fault, right?

 

[Journey]

Even if this is what took place, calling her malicious and mentally ill is the worst possible way to defend himself,

Yup, and thus the problem. I'm just saying, if I didn't read the details, I would think he raped someone. Not saying that what he did was right, but what he did afterward shows restraint and that he's capable of doing the right thing despite being drunk. Now what he's doing while sober doesn't look as good, maybe he should take a few shots and try again lol.

 

[Apocryphon]

I keep seeing references to Ima being a film director? Anybody got a link to a film she directed?

 

[Crazyorloco]

This is a weird situation.

A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.

Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.

This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.

One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).

But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.

But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.

None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.

The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.

I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).

All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.

I found it hard to describe what I was feeling about this whole situation, but this post pretty much captures it perfectly. Thank you.

 

[fuzaco]

I keep seeing references to Ima being a film director? Anybody got a link to a film she directed?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5768898/

A quick google search can do wonders.

 

[Hermii]

Yup, and thus the problem. I'm just saying, if I didn't read the details, I would think he raped someone. Not saying that what he did was right, but what he did afterward shows restraint and that he's capable of doing the right thing despite being drunk. Now what he's doing while sober doesn't look as good, maybe he should take a few shots and try again lol.

I heard it wasn’t the breakin that brought down Nixon, it was the coverup.

 

[hendersonhank]

So let's put it this way:

1) You're with a girl that you like, you go out for drinks, you both get drunk, you both check into the same room.

2) The girl goes to the bathroom and starts taking a shower; leaves the door open.

3) At this point you might not know she's sick or puking, you just hear the shower running. (We don't know the body language that took place earlier, You might have gotten signs that she was sexually into you and you already knew she's in an open relationship, aka don't appear to be off limits, especially after checking into the same room instead of her own).

4) You then make the wrong call and proceed to join her in the shower... what were you thinking?! She says, NO!

5) This is the pivotal moment... You don't force yourself on her, don't insist or put up a struggle in any way, but instead step back immediately, you both have a conversation about the incident and you acknowledge it was a mistake, after all you were both very drunk. You both put it behind you and determine you'll continue to be friends, which later turns into a consensual sexual relationship.

6) #Metoo is created over the Harvey Weinstein incident and the person decides to share a moment that she experienced and mentions the incident which she simply labeled as "Creepy" and not sexual assault.


This sounds to me like what took place based on what I've read so far. Does this constitute sexual assault? we'll see what the courts determine, if there's even a case brought. The way he's handling it is another story and maybe why the meltdown is taking place, but let's not lose focus of the facts.

I agree.

It is absolutely not sexual assault or sexual harassment, or even sexual misconduct, by any legal definition. There will obviously never be charges brought against him for this, and if there were, they would go absolutely nowhere.

 

[Apocryphon]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5768898/

A quick google search can do wonders.

So, not a film director then? Amateur filmmaker who has worked on a handful of indie shorts as a camera operator and “directed” somebody’s belly dance showreel... not the “director, show runner, and producer” she lists on LinkedIn.

Bullshit artist.

 

[johnny956]

So, not a film director then? Amateur filmmaker who has worked on a handful of indie shorts as a camera operator and “directed” somebody’s belly dance showreel... not the “director, show runner, and producer” she lists on LinkedIn.

Bullshit artist.

So we're going down that route now