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Waypoint: Inside the Sexual Misconduct Allegations Rocking NeoGAF's Last 48 Hours

ape2man

Member
It goes without question it will go in a much much more right-wing leaning direction as almost the entirety of the major OT posters are gone.

Maybe its for the best, i'm the most left person out there but i really had the feeling that anyone who was right could now post their opinion any more on this forum, everytime i was in some touchy threads i saw people getting banned left and right, So i just stopped going there. So maybe its for the best and stuff will be more balanced.
 

Temp_User

Member
I only knew about it via second-hand sources but maybe someone could post the full transcript of Evilore's explanation to the GAF mods about the situation between him and Leupp.

I read about the one where
Leupp dragged him and another girl into a scientology compound with roofies and surprise sex involved
. . . . its so flatout wild i need double ,no, triple corroboration to verify if this is true.
 

dolabla

Member
Evilore is desperately trying to assemble a facade of integrity when he could just admit his mistakes, grow as a person, and stop lashing out at those around him. The world needs people like you to grow up, Tyler.

But what if he really is Innocent? Why would he admit to something he didn't really do? He said he has witnesses and evidence to back his claim up. Why not give him his due?

I swear, I would not want to be in the hands of some of you in a court system. It'd be the Salem Witch Trials all over again.
 
evilore doesn't deny, repeatedly accuses his victim of being mentally ill and making shit up, and proceeds to blame everything on "all the politics".

What kind of pig jumps in the shower fully naked with someone who's puking drunk?

Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.

Like it or not, this the problem with NeoGAF. This forum and so many people acted so high and mighty about drama in gaming when it wasn't NeoGAF related. Gambling in games, harassment from other forums towards another group, racism from youtubers to the point that if you even so had a differ nice of opinion of one of those scumbags (pewdiepie for example) then you would get banned. But now NeoGAF is in the spotlight and we have people defending Evilore and NOT getting banned or called out for ”enabling" him.

This just shows how up their own arse some people are. Too afraid to admit when their forum is actually a problem when shit like this comes up. To act like on of those NeoGAF members, of you haven't Evilore then you're an enabler, because that's how we act on this forum. We never give anyone like Boogie or JonTron a second chance, so why is Evilore getting one?
 

Royce McCutcheon

Junior Member
The problem here is that you can't just make things up and state them like facts

As a victim of sexual abuse and molestation, I assure you I don't call my youth mentor entering my room every week for years to tongue kiss an 8 year old a "Creepy thing". But hey, that's just anecdotal evidence right? I'll proudly say I didn't hook up with him years later either. Or maintain a healthy relationship like these 2 did. It changed my trust in men, gave me a sense of inadequacy with women, and I got into fights with men for YEARS before I went to therapy, and it was the worst period of my life. This shit happening here? No man.
 
I just don't get why evilore doesn't say, "yeah I wanted to bone and jumped in the shower. She turned me down, but we later got in a relationship, and etc. This isn't a simple story of me aggressively approaching her and that's it, there's a context and back and fourth story". Then he apologizes for making her feel uncomfortable in that moment. Life moves on, OT saved.
 
I just wish everyone who is asking for a ban at least told us where they are going, Because as shitty as this whole situation was handled almost every single forum out there is way worse than GAF when it comes to misogyny...

Anyway, I like GAF. I think it strikes a good balance between moderation and free speech. And I can easily separate an author from the product in this case. (Is everyone who is leaving GAF refusing to watch any Tarantino movie as well?)
 

ape2man

Member
evilore doesn't deny, repeatedly accuses his victim of being mentally ill and making shit up, and proceeds to blame everything on "all the politics".

What kind of pig jumps in the shower fully naked with someone who's puking drunk?

Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.

Really? this is just a lie. You are literally saying that I am oppressing women's
opinions on this forum by being present and having discussions about games with
fellow gamers. Because you think the owner is.

Talking about hyperbowl
 

psyfi

Banned
But what if he really is Innocent? Why would he admit to something he didn't really do? He said he has witnesses and evidence to back his claim up. Why not give him his due?

I swear, I would not want to be in the hands of some of you in a court system. It'd be the Salem Witch Trials all over again.
As others have noted, Malka has a long history of assault, abuse, intimidation, etc. It's not this one incident, but that incident and his response to the fallout sense is also very concerning, yes.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
Like it or not, this the problem with NeoGAF. This forum and so many people acted so high and mighty about drama in gaming when it wasn’t NeoGAF related. Gambling in games, harassment from other forums towards another group, racism from youtubers to the point that if you even so had a differ nice of opinion of one of those scumbags (pewdiepie for example) then you would get banned. But now NeoGAF is in the spotlight and we have people defending Evilore and NOT getting banned or called out for “enabling” him.

This just shows how up their own arse some people are. Too afraid to admit when their forum is actually a problem when shit like this comes up. To act like on of those NeoGAF members, of you haven’t Evilore then you’re an enabler, because that’s how we act on this forum. We never give anyone like Boogie or JonTron a second chance, so why is Evilore getting one?
To be fair, it wasn't Evilore who banned all people, no? Didn't the mods here basically have free reign on who to ban? I think it's a bit unfair to blame Evilore for all that. Perhaps only partially for tolerating it.
 

Neoweee

Member
I just don't get why evilore doesn't say, "yeah I wanted to bone and jumped in the shower. She turned me down, but we later got in a relationship, and etc. This isn't a simple story of me aggressively approaching her and that's it, there's a context and back and fourth story". Then he apologizes for making her feel uncomfortable in that moment. Life moves on, OT saved.

That's because Evilore is a terrible owner and moderator that has repeatedly failed to handle controversies in a timely and organized manner, repeatedly failed to be honest with controversies, and has repeatedly thrown his (volunteer!) mods under the bus to be the public face of his messes.

Even his story about "Well, GAF was down, so no place to put a statement!" is garbage. Like, dude, what is Twitter?
 

AR15mex

Member
GAFFERS (Or whatever is left from it),

Help me out to see something,

Do statements have to be taken 100% face value? This is starting to look like witch hunts.

I'm mean it's the internet, and if Malka has a track record, time (and women) will tell us the truth. So, I just hope for both affected parties will get their share they deserve. Either good or bad.

One thing I'm certain, women will be more respected at different environments thanks to movements like these.
 
Whats with the junior bashing, I'm a junior does that make my opinion less valid, I am hoping myself that this place becomes less about politics and more about gaming.

The "junior bashing" seems to me to be less about the "junior" status and more about people who have been here for barely any time - or who have had what appear to be clear "burner" accounts (registered years ago and with next-to-no posts - popping up now to celebrate the current mess or to make comments that would have had them banned just a few days ago.

When you have someone who registered in 2016 and who has barely 100-odd posts gloating about having "our" GAF back and shouting about how terrible it is that "politics" had invaded the forum it will raise eyebrows among members who have been here far longer - particularly when the likeliest date to peg any "political invasion" would be late 2014 when GamerGate erupted, a good two years before they even registered.
 

ronin_cse

Neo Member
I just don't get why evilore doesn't say, "yeah I wanted to bone and jumped in the shower. She turned me down, but we later got in a relationship, and etc. This isn't a simple story of me aggressively approaching her and that's it, there's a context and back and fourth story". Then he apologizes for making her feel uncomfortable in that moment. Life moves on, OT saved.

I absolutely agree, seems like this would have saved a lot of drama. I can only assume that he's the type of person who just cannot admit fault no matter what, similar to Trump really, or the mother of my girlfriend from highschool ;)

I just wish everyone who is asking for a ban at least told us where they are going, Because as shitty as this whole situation was handled almost every single forum out there is way worse than GAF when it comes to misogyny...

Anyway, I like GAF. I think it strikes a good balance between moderation and free speech. And easily separate an author from the product in this case. (Is everyone who is leaving GAF refusing to watch any Tarantino movie as well?)

I wonder this as well :(. I don't post a lot but coming here during the day to read about what's going on really helps make the work day go by faster, I haven't been able to find a good substitute...reddit is ok but not the same and the gamefaqs forums are honestly pretty terrible and IMO validate a lot of the negative gamer stereotypes. :(
 

Exotoro

Member
Like it or not, this the problem with NeoGAF. This forum and so many people acted so high and mighty about drama in gaming when it wasn’t NeoGAF related. Gambling in games, harassment from other forums towards another group, racism from youtubers to the point that if you even so had a differ nice of opinion of one of those scumbags (pewdiepie for example) then you would get banned. But now NeoGAF is in the spotlight and we have people defending Evilore and NOT getting banned or called out for “enabling” him.

This just shows how up their own arse some people are. Too afraid to admit when their forum is actually a problem when shit like this comes up. To act like on of those NeoGAF members, of you haven’t Evilore then you’re an enabler, because that’s how we act on this forum. We never give anyone like Boogie or JonTron a second chance, so why is Evilore getting one?

boogie nor jontron have ever admitted to their mistakes
 

Neoweee

Member
Where is the proof there are no mods and it's just Evilore?

There really isn't. Modding is now anonymous out of doxxing fears. A bunch did leave, but either some of them stayed around (anonymously, for now), or Evilore recruited a bunch more rapidly.

There's too many bannings, rapidly and around the clock, for it to just be Evilore right now.
 
Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.

Well, this post has a lot in common with your username. It belongs into the latter part of it.
 
GAFFERS (Or whatever is left from it),

Help me out to see something,

Do statements have to be taken 100% face value? This is starting to look like witch hunts.

I'm mean it's the internet, and if Malka has a track record, time (and women) will tell us the truth. So, I just hope for both affected parties will get their share they deserve. Either good or bad.

One thing I'm certain, women will be more respected at different environments thanks to movements like these.

In the same post you say that women will be more respected and accuse this of being a witch hunt. So which is it?
 
“Our”?

Piss off, Junior. It wasn’t your anything.

And you’ve been aorund since 2015, your point?

I’ve been here since 1998, if you want to measure dicks. He might have been a long time lurker, it doesn’t matter. GAF won’t be the same and we all suffer, because of one man with an ego who can’t admit fault and take the L on all his problematic bullshit.
 

pantsmith

Member
I just wish everyone who is asking for a ban at least told us where they are going, Because as shitty as this whole situation was handled almost every single forum out there is way worse than GAF when it comes to misogyny...

Anyway, I like GAF. I think it strikes a good balance between moderation and free speech. And I can easily separate an author from the product in this case. (Is everyone who is leaving GAF refusing to watch any Tarantino movie as well?)

Wherever they go, it will never be the same.

Splitting communities up doesnt work, and the idealistic “Neo” Neogaf some people want to create is way more satisfying as an idea than any execution could be, since youre only ever getting a small part of the original community.

More than likely you'll see names and faces you recognize on other sites, like Twitter or a comment section somewhere, and youll remember the good times.
 
To be fair, it wasn't Evilore who banned all people, no? Didn't the mods here basically have free reign on who to ban? I think it's a bit unfair to blame Evilore for all that. Perhaps only partially for tolerating it.

My point being not about the mods, but the way so many users on this forum are hypocritical. We see someone do something scummy such as a YouTuber, then NeoGAF collectively rally’s against that one person. Anyone who may have a difference of opinion on the subject is ridiculed and even banned in some cases.

But now NeoGAF is the spotlight where our forum ruler has messed up and we can have people igiving Evilore a second chance? It’s the users I have a problem with and the how we have outed, raged and shunned against so many people in the industry such as Plamer Lucky, Pewdiepie, Boogie, TotalBiscuit and so many more then when our “face our community” is in the wrong, we’re willing to give them a second chance and face no consequences.

I saw threads relating to Tmartin during that incident last year were NeoGAFfers we’re making comments about “how sickening it was to see their fanbase still sticking up for him in the comment section”. How Pewdiepie fans are “fucking dumb” for letting him say a racist word on stream. How even recently, the guy (Dave Ballard) who made is harassment story public still results on people buying and supporting Playstation and ND games.

To everyone outside of NeoGAF, we’re defending him.
 

Apples_89

Member
This is a weird situation.

A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.

Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.

This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.

One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).

But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.

But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.

None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.

The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.

I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).

All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.

Thank you for taking the time to compose this well-constructed and eloquently phrased analysis of the situation. If only more people on here were as level-minded as you...
 

caffeware

Banned
They all posted they did, and before the site came back, you could see the moderation team.

It was empty.

Some may had come back considering the conditions for their departure had changed.
Someone mentioned earlier one thats still around. We will see when the other forum opens.
 

psyfi

Banned
I too would like to talk about video games

but instead here we are ONCE AGAIN talking about how evilore is an abusive megalomaniac

grow up tyler
 

rudger

Member
...super long eloquent post...

This is a good post and I generally agree with all of it. The key word you use that’s been running through my head while reading the article is “immature”. Both of them come off as emotionally immature and it’s weird to read people commenting on a close long lasting and clearly complicated relationship between two people as though they have any idea what was going on between them.

His response has been petulant and petty but for me so far it isn’t worthy of abandoning this community. That could easily change if more comes out, but so far her own words aren’t doing a lot to convince me that I have a real grasp on the situation. If anything they just reinforced that this is a more personal matter than initially thought and not something we are going to get the full story on - or even necessarily should get the full story on.
 
Yeah, that's the part were i stopped understanding whole this situation. Maybe this is understandable for people from west, but i find it hard to see any logic in this. Like, he harassed you, ruined your relations with boyfriend, and then... you had "consensual sex" with harasser? I think that sexual harassments are disgusting and should not be tolerated, but this story is fucked up in so many ways, it's a shame that community is going to die because of this.

That behaviour is pretty common. Put yourself in the woman's shoes: A man in a more powerful position makes an inappropriate move towards you. It makes you feel uncomfortable, but he does it in an oblique and confusing enough way that you aren't sure what exactly happened at the time. You question whether you remembered it correctly, you life would be a lot easier if you just let it slide.

So you try to let it slide, you try to let it go. But it hangs there, in the back of your head and the guy hangs around too. It's stuck in a limbo and the only way to resolve it is to either push him away or try to pull him in closer. Maybe this was just an awkward thing we can move past, he doesn't seem so bad right now. Maybe I can make this work without having to ruffle any feathers, without making myself a target or threatening my career.


Talk to some of your friends about the abuse they have suffered and the decisions that abuse led them to. It's pretty eye opening. There is a reason predatory men do what they do, it works more often than not.
 

rudger

Member
That behaviour is pretty common. Put yourself in the woman's shoes: A man in a more powerful position makes an inappropriate move towards you. It makes you feel uncomfortable, but he does it in an oblique and confusing enough way that you aren't sure what exactly happened at the time. You question whether you remembered it correctly, you life would be a lot easier if you just let it slide.

So you try to let it slide, you try to let it go. But it hangs there, in the back of your head and the guy hangs around too. It's stuck in a limbo and the only way to resolve it is to either push him away or try to pull him in closer. Maybe this was just an awkward thing we can move past, he doesn't seem so bad right now. Maybe I can make this work without having to ruffle any feathers, without making myself a target or threatening my career.


Talk to some of your friends about the abuse they have suffered and the decisions that abuse led them to. It's pretty eye opening. There is a reason predatory men do what they do, it works more often than not.

I totally get that normally, but how is he “in a more powerful position”? What does he give her that she wouldn’t have without him? E3 tickets?

Edit: am I just naive about how influential gaf may be towards a filmmaker? Cause I assume not very
 

Royce McCutcheon

Junior Member
That behaviour is pretty common. Put yourself in the woman's shoes: A man in a more powerful position makes an inappropriate move towards you. It makes you feel uncomfortable, but he does it in an oblique and confusing enough way that you aren't sure what exactly happened at the time. You question whether you remembered it correctly, you life would be a lot easier if you just let it slide.

So you try to let it slide, you try to let it go. But it hangs there, in the back of your head and the guy hangs around too. It's stuck in a limbo and the only way to resolve it is to either push him away or try to pull him in closer. Maybe this was just an awkward thing we can move past, he doesn't seem so bad right now. Maybe I can make this work without having to ruffle any feathers, without making myself a target or threatening my career.


Talk to some of your friends about the abuse they have suffered and the decisions that abuse led them to. It's pretty eye opening. There is a reason predatory men do what they do, it works more often than not.

She said she didn't drop him because he had already invited her to E3
 
I've posted here before, and the junior status has nothing to do with it, there is always 2 sides to a story.

It's the truth though, right? Yes, we should believe it when someone says they have been sexually harassed. We should not dismiss them for no reason other than just not wanting to make a fuss. Also, we shouldn't condemn the alleged person until an investigation has been performed. Ultimately, the majority of us might not ever know the whole truth. It might be something only the people closest to the situation will ever know.
 

psyfi

Banned
it's really fucking gross how this woman felt she had to keep quiet because of Evilore's power

and what power does evilore have? us

every member of this forum has a responsibility to see evilore step down
 

caffeware

Banned
That behaviour is pretty common. Put yourself in the woman's shoes: A man in a more powerful position makes an inappropriate move towards you. It makes you feel uncomfortable, but he does it in an oblique and confusing enough way that you aren't sure what exactly happened at the time. You question whether you remembered it correctly, you life would be a lot easier if you just let it slide.

So you try to let it slide, you try to let it go. But it hangs there, in the back of your head and the guy hangs around too. It's stuck in a limbo and the only way to resolve it is to either push him away or try to pull him in closer. Maybe this was just an awkward thing we can move past, he doesn't seem so bad right now. Maybe I can make this work without having to ruffle any feathers, without making myself a target or threatening my career.


Talk to some of your friends about the abuse they have suffered and the decisions that abuse led them to. It's pretty eye opening. There is a reason predatory men do what they do, it works more often than not.

I really dony understand this.
 
evilore doesn't deny, repeatedly accuses his victim of being mentally ill and making shit up, and proceeds to blame everything on "all the politics".

What kind of pig jumps in the shower fully naked with someone who's puking drunk?

Yes, that is disgusting obviously, but he was obviously very drunk too. People are disgusting when drunk. And he left after Leupp asked him, without touching her. What he did was bad, but to put it in perspective, what Trump did (touching a women intimate without consent) is much worse. It seems Leupp was not even very mad at him, only disgusted (as anyone should be). People should not loose perspective, because that only weakens people standpoints who talks about serious issues in sexism and womens abuse.

Evillores statements about this incident shows that he is naive and does not have much self awareness, and his statements so far seems to contribute the evidence that the girl is right in her statements. But if I wanted to avoid all childish and dumb people on the internet there would be no place to go. Seeing some of the people going to the "era" thing, it will surely not be better there.

Anyone who stays here is complicit and contributing to a hostile environment where women are afraid to speak up. Have a good look at yourself in the mirror and see if that's who you wanna be.

You are going a fully over the top and that only hurts the needed discussion about what EvilLore did.

NeoGaf should be the place to discuss this, in any other forum it is pointless. We will see the outcome after a few days, and than is the time to draw consequences. Without insulting people and without shortsighted drama behaviour.
 

Typical

Banned
it's really fucking gross how this woman felt she had to keep quiet because of Evilore's power

and what power does evilore have? us

every member of this forum has a responsibility to see evilore step down

How about you do the rest of us non hysterical members a favour and just leave and take the power with you?
 
I totally get that normally, but how is he ”in a more powerful position"? What does he give her that she wouldn't have without him? E3 tickets?

Edit: am I just naive about how influential gaf may be towards a filmmaker? Cause I assume not very

She says he was helping her with her career as a director. Introducing her to people. Malka runs a very popular entertainment site. For someone trying to get in edgewise, a Gaf thread could be the difference between a video going viral or not.

She said she didn't drop him because he had already invited her to E3

Have you never used a pre-existing future milestone to justify a decision? My point is that people who have had bad things happen to them often make bad decisions. It's why the compounding effects of sexual abuse that can derail a person's life so completely.

I really dony understand this.

So you have this bad, incongruous thing in your life. Something that you would feel guilty for bringing up to others. You would feel bad saying it publicly because you know it would only lead to trouble and you don't even feel comfortable bringing it up as sexual abuse to your close friends because you know some of them have way worse stories and yours feels insignificant compared to what they have faced.

So the best thing would be for this to just go away. The best way for it to go away if for the man involved to not be a predatory creep. For him to just be an awkward, but well meaning guy who finds you attractive. So maybe that's what you try to tell yourself. That he is a well meaning guy who finds you attractive. From there, maybe you give him another chance.
 

A.Romero

Member
it's really fucking gross how this woman felt she had to keep quiet because of Evilore's power

and what power does evilore have? us

every member of this forum has a responsibility to see evilore step down

She could also just not continue traveling with him and that's it. I mean, if I understand correctly they eventually blocked each other from contact and nothing happened to her.

She decided to continue being in contact and that's fine. It seems the community here is way more appalled of what happened than the actual victim... I find that hilarious.
 

AR15mex

Member
This is a weird situation.

A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.

Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.

This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.

One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).

But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.

But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.

None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.

The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.

I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).

All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.

Thanks Man,

This should be attached to the OP or something. Great writing and analysis.
 
This is a joke right?

Of fucking course you’re guilty. Holy shit, when you make a move on someone, the first step is never to come up behind them in the shower, completely naked. Malka deserves everything coming to him, including this site burning to the ground. What he did was sexual assault. In no world was what he did even remotely justified. Period. End of discussion.

This is my final post on GAF. Ban me Malka, I don’t care. Just keep digging.

"Sexual assault is a sexual act in which a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or non-consensual sexual touching of a person. Sexual assault is a form of sexual violence, and it includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the person in a sexual manner."

She did not claim he touched her at all.
 
This is a weird situation.

A big part of why I've gravitated almost solely to Gaf for gaming news/discussion over the last few years is BECAUSE it has such a low proportion of/tolerance for gross shit (e.g., gamergate). There's literally almost no other place on the internet w/ such breadth and depth of discussion that's so relatively clean.

Given that, it's totally understandable that so many gaffers have reacted so strongly to the possibility that the site founder is a creeper/doesn't always comport himself in the most gentlemanly manner toward women.

This is a unique (and mostly good) cultural moment in that there's a critical mass of women coming forward and calling out truly gross (and often criminal behavior) from men in power, and we're not just brushing it under the rug. Of course these sorts of cultural movements will sometimes have unfair collateral damage, but surely that pales in comparison to all the damage women have suffered at the hands of nasty men.

One thing I'm a little wary of is collapsing the personal and the societal -- stuff like what Harvey Weinstein and his ilk have done definitely deserve a hearing in the court of public opinion (and very obviously and probably more importantly serious legal consideration as well).

But a lot of questionable behavior is still far from rape/assault/serious harassment. I'm not sure the court of public opinion is best suited to adjudicate messy, local, personal situations where there's no clear crime (nor accusation of crime) and the details are hard to clear. If I were friends w/ Tyler or people he's friends w/, his behavior w/ the woman in question would totally be fair game for discussion. We'd probably say things like "damn, going up on a drunk lady in the shower? Creeper move...." and "what's up w/ her marriage that she was on some epic drinking one-on-one road trip w/ another guy? Is she in an open relationship? Was she giving him vibes?" We'd know something about the people involved, and have a better sense of who trust, what actually happened, and we'd use the soft power of social context to try and address the situation "I don't think I can hang out w/ him anymore..." or "dude, don't date that guy you're asking for drama..." Whatever. Surely almost every adult has had similar situations/discussions in their friend group.

But because I take the alleged behavior by Tyler (assuming for now it's true) to be not that rare (not saying it's not creepy or somewhat inappropriate), it's not clear to me that the absence of such behavior should be a criterion for interacting w/ a cultural institution. Like, there is a vanishing probability that you couldn't find examples of equally questionable behavior among the the leadership/influential people in literally ANY cultural institution. This will surely be the case for ResetEra, when it comes online. Is it believable that none of the folks involved will have never: kissed someone w/out first asking, put some kind of soft social pressure on someone to get a date, had an awkward frisson w/ someone in another relationship that got a little messy/weird, cheated on someone, made comments w/ friends that might come off as insensitive, etc.? No, it's not.

None of that excuses creepy weird behavior, but there needs to be cultural space to recognize the difference between serious crime (rape, assault, patterns of harrassment) that should be dealt w/ at the public level, and creepy/juvenile/immature shit that should be dealt w/ at the personal level. Because no cultural institution will survive if we have a hard criterion against the existence of any of that.

The fact is, if Tyler actually raped/assaulted/harrassed someone, didn't take no for an answer, went out of his way to creep on people who he WASN'T already involved in a complicated relationship with, that would rise to my personal criterion of not wanting to support a product he was involved in. But absent that, I don't really feel like I even should be thinking about, or have an opinion on, his messy interpersonal shit. As the woman who posted the allegation on Facebook has subsequently said, she didn't even want it to go public. She thought it was creepy (and if her story was true, it is), and she shared it with her friends, which would seem to be the right context for airing creepy-but-non-criminal stuff.

I'm an old-school de Beauvoirian feminist. That is, I fundamentally reject objectification of others (male or female) as a precondition for social interaction. But I can't see that tanking anything where someone involved has done what Tyler was accused of comes close to meeting the categorical imperative. It's a sure road to burn-it-down chaos in all corners of life. Some of the most gleeful voices over Neogaf's implosion have been just those chaotic hateful voices (because, potentially ironically, they were expelled from here for being disrespectful toward women).

All that said, my interest in Neogaf was the community. If they go somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. If they stay here (and further issues don't come to light and the site isn't overrun by the garbage that used to be kept out), I guess I'll stay here.

Fantastic post. I 100% agree.
 

Goodstyle

Member
In this article it states that they had consensual sex at a different time after the shower incident.

So if she was creeped out so much then you’d have to wonder why would this occur after the fact..

As with everything it’s not black and white.

I think she stretched the truth in her original statement. She said that he was being really shitty to her after the shower incident and that their relationship deteriorated afterwards, but obviously that was a lie, so with that in mind here's my theory on what happened.

1. They're alone and drunk together at a hotel, Tyler probably knows about her open relationship, and I'm guessing he didn't know about her "girls only" rule in regards to that.

2. He goes into the shower, I'm guessing he probably misread some signals, or she decided last minute she wasn't going to sleep with him after all if it really went as far as she said it did. Anyways, something happened, and at the end of it they were able to move past it on decent terms.

3. They go to E3 together soon after and between the shower incident and E3, they get into a sorta-relationship (or at least a friends with benefits situation).

4. They're relationship deteriorates during this time. He says it's due to jealousy of another girl, she says it's because he was being an aggressive dick. Either way, they stop seeing each other and block each other on social media.

5. At some point in the future, in the wave of the #MeToo campaign, she mentions her encounter with him in the shower. Maybe at the time it wasn't a huge deal to her since she was able to move past it and get into a relationship with him, but in retrospect, and with knowing what they're relationship would become, she decided it wasn't a consensual encounter and talks about it. The rest is history.

My take in all of this is that Tyler made a mistake going into that shower when he did. Even if he read some signals, if both parties were as drunk as they were, it's best not to do anything either person might not remember. However, I'm not going to call him a sexual predator like a lot of people on here are doing. The situation seems a lot more complicated than that, and it at the very least there wasn't any unwanted physical contact.

At the very worst, he misread some signals, went into a shower, and was told to leave. They made up afterwards, and according to both of them, their relationship deteriorated due to events that were unrelated to the shower incident.
 

Zhylaw

Neo Member
Honestly, I feel like Tyler's response is more damaging then the accusation itself. Just shutting down neogaf for days with a bogus mainteince message, the radio silence, then deleting off-topic and pretending mods leaving had nothing to do with what is going on.

It doesn't even matter if he is innocent or not, the response is just so heavy handed and above it all. If he truly cares about neogaf then he should sell it to save it's reputation and make a tidy sum.
 

Maedhros

Member
Maybe its for the best, i'm the most left person out there but i really had the feeling that anyone who was right could now post their opinion any more on this forum, everytime i was in some touchy threads i saw people getting banned left and right, So i just stopped going there. So maybe its for the best and stuff will be more balanced.

That's my view as well. I was banned many times on these forums, so I tried to ignore drama or touchy threads. I simply don't give any opinion or read these type of comments.

Well, it's pretty sad to see what this place has become. I was somewhat active in Offtopic communities, seeing these go is pretty sad. =/
 
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