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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO

Sec0nd

Member
I feel the real message of the show is don't explore robots. Just don't. It never ends well. I have never seen a fiction where the robots become self-aware and go "Hey, let's not rebel and start wearing human skin as a biodegradable replacement of our own." You know what probably has too much sentience right now for my likings? My toaster.

I dunno. It feels more like a animal cruelty message to me. When Maeve is walking through all the different departments of the company. They were pretty much slaughter houses. People cutting, chopping, doing whatever to the hosts. Like the products they are. Everyone is just using the hosts, not caring for them at all. All the while, the conscious host experience this as pure and utter terror.

I guess it could also be some slavery/racism message. We choose to believe you are not equal, etc.
 

El Topo

Member
Started yesterday, finished today. Really good show with great performances and a lot of potential. Shame about some of the flaws, like the pacing and certain parts of the plot.
 
I dunno. It feels more like a animal cruelty message to me. When Maeve is walking through all the different departments of the company. They were pretty much slaughter houses. People cutting, chopping, doing whatever to the hosts. Like the products they are. Everyone is just using the hosts, not caring for them at all. All the while, the conscious host experience this as pure and utter terror.

I guess it could also be some slavery/racism message. We choose to believe you are not equal, etc.
It's more about how shitty humanity is than anything else.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
History of America aside, show me one instance of an Asian host in any part of actual Westworld (The inside facility don't count). But then again, that Asian host that beats up Clem in the set up demo was I guess another clue.

There was at least one in an earlier scene. (which could have been a human, we don't really know).

Speaking of Asian people in Westworld, there was an Asian girl who walked past Mauve in the beginning of the episode, as she's fast walking back home.
 
Absolutely loved the finale, end to end. There was quite a bit of payoff for a number of story arcs, but still left plenty to be answered/continued in the next season.

Ford's speech at the end, and that whole scene, really, was perfect.

Things I'm left to wonder about:

1. Will Jimmi Simpson and Ben Barnes be back for season 2? Seems like there could be more to dig into with the older timeline of the park, maybe. It would make sense if they didn't, if the show is only going to be forward-focused, but I really enjoyed their characters, so I wouldn't mind seeing them brought back.

2. We still haven't gotten an actual context for where the park is. While the safer and easier option would be to just have it somewhere on earth, I still have the itch to think that it's on another planet or a moon, and that the extended work cycles of the non-host staff is due to the travel time to get there from earth. Fun to think about, at the least.

3. The host Ford was creating in secret. A copy of himself, perhaps, to live on "forever", or maybe Dolores shot his host, and he's still in the park somewhere.

4. I want more piano renditions of Radiohead, please.
 

Ensirius

Member
Started yesterday, finished today. Really good show with great performances and a lot of potential. Shame about some of the flaws, like the pacing and certain parts of the plot.

Yeah, the only complaint I have is the
Maeve part of the plot
had some really weird pacing to it.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
I feel the real message of the show is don't explore robots. Just don't. It never ends well. I have never seen a fiction where the robots become self-aware and go "Hey, let's not rebel and start wearing human skin as a biodegradable replacement of our own." You know what probably has too much sentience right now for my likings? My toaster.

Consider this:
Asimov noted that when he began writing in 1940 he felt that "one of the stock plots of science fiction was ... robots were created and destroyed their creator. Knowledge has its dangers, yes, but is the response to be a retreat from knowledge? Or is knowledge to be used as itself a barrier to the dangers it brings?" He decided that in his stories robots would not "turn stupidly on his creator for no purpose but to demonstrate, for one more weary time, the crime and punishment of Faust."[2]
Asimov was bored of the fact that all robot stories ended up with the robots killing humans... in 1940.
TV and cinema are going through what literature has gone through roughly a century ago.
Asimov's entire body of work is basically "Hey, what if robots didn't try to kill us?"
 

SkyOdin

Member
Only saw the movie and from what I recall, the robots super tried to get all up on Will Smith's skin. I think? I dunno it's been awhile.
The movie is a terrible, terrible adaptation that goes against the entire spirit of Asimov's work. When he was alive, Asimov predicted that the film industry would never make a proper adaptation of his works, and he seemed to honestly dislike the tropes of movies.

The actual book I, Robot is an anthology of short stories. In each story, a robot malfunctions and has to be debugged by people from the manufacturer. No robots ever harm a human being in the collection, as most of the malfunctions involve robots being at risk to themselves or not doing their work properly.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Consider this:

Asimov was bored of the fact that all robot stories ended up with the robots killing humans... in 1940.
TV and cinema are going through what literature has gone through roughly a century ago.
Asimov's entire body of work is basically "Hey, what if robots didn't try to kill us?"


The movie is a terrible, terrible adaptation that goes against the entire spirit of Asimov's work. When he was alive, Asimov predicted that the film industry would never make a proper adaptation of his works, and he seemed to honestly dislike the tropes of movies.

The actual book I, Robot is an anthology of short stories. In each story, a robot malfunctions and has to be debugged by people from the manufacturer. No robots ever harm a human being in the collection, as most of the malfunctions involve robots being at risk to themselves or not doing their work properly.

And you two just sold me on a book.
 
The best (and unappreciated) robot movie is A.I. Sure Spielberg's touches at its end were unessary, but the whoke is great.

Slowly mankind will fall, A.I. will rise, and they will inherity the Earth, humans are relics, just a curiosity.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
So many aspects of this fall apart if you think of the following from a computer science/engineering POV.

  • Why is there no central AI? (This is where things are actually leading in the real world.)
  • Why have "individual" AI inside different bodies? (This should just be a personality modification.)
  • Why does these bodies even have to have that much strength? (No reason to be able to lift more than 40lbs.)
  • Weren't bullets supposed to be blanks?
  • Why even follow Maeve's orders? (She shouldn't be a real threat.)

But if we just put that under the rug and forget about how tech works, then sure this was a decent show.
 

Joni

Member
The movie is a terrible, terrible adaptation that goes against the entire spirit of Asimov's work. When he was alive, Asimov predicted that the film industry would never make a proper adaptation of his works, and he seemed to honestly dislike the tropes of movies.

The actual book I, Robot is an anthology of short stories. In each story, a robot malfunctions and has to be debugged by people from the manufacturer. No robots ever harm a human being in the collection, as most of the malfunctions involve robots being at risk to themselves or not doing their work properly.

The movie just brings the three laws to the logical conclusion. And that with only one robot ever killing a human in that movie. The one 'willing' to do so like Dolores with Ford.
 

hollomat

Banned
Finished the season and really enjoyed it. My one big complaint though is the reveal about Bernard:

How does no one notice that someone is working at the park who is an exact duplicate of one of the founders of WestWorld? Apart from Ford, no one knew he was a host.
 

e_i

Member
Do I think that
Ford isn't dead.
I think that
the Ford that was shot was robot he built and his true Ford is somewhere else.
 

Moff

Member
Finished the season and really enjoyed it. My one big complaint though is the reveal about Bernard:

How does no one notice that someone is working at the park who is an exact duplicate of one of the founders of WestWorld? Apart from Ford, no one knew he was a host.

sylvester said he never heard of an arnold, so apparently records of him were erased

but I agree that it was highly unbelievable and borderline dumb, and the worst part about it is that it didn't really impact anything at all. why did bernard have to look like arnold? what was exactly the revelation of the audience? what did the twist accomplish? absolutely nothing. it was just a twist for the sake of having a twist.

and I feel similar about the william/mib twist
 

El Topo

Member
Do I think that
Ford isn't dead.
I think that
the Ford that was shot was robot he built and his true Ford is somewhere else.

While that is possible, I would rather suspect
that Ford himself now "became music", i.e. he got killed and/or left a host behind.
 

shira

Member
Finished the season and really enjoyed it. My one big complaint though is the reveal about Bernard:

How does no one notice that someone is working at the park who is an exact duplicate of one of the founders of WestWorld? Apart from Ford, no one knew he was a host.

There were no pictures
 

jblank83

Member
Why is there no central AI? (This is where things are actually leading in the real world.)

This is what companies want you to believe because it justifies subscriptions and online only models. The stronger and cheaper processors get, the easier it is for them to do what you need and to do it without relying on remote services. Remote services are great for updating centralized information, like world news. Not so much for doing local computations, like processing a photo you just took.

imo

So, yes, it does make sense that the AI are individualized to the body.

imo
 
Finished the season and really enjoyed it. My one big complaint though is the reveal about Bernard:

How does no one notice that someone is working at the park who is an exact duplicate of one of the founders of WestWorld? Apart from Ford, no one knew he was a host.

Arnold died before the park opened, over 30-35 years ago, ford said to bernard in one of the earlier episodes Arnold was scrubbed from the history books. It's safe to assume judging by the age of ford when he built Bernard in a flashback that it was a long time after Arnold died that Bernard was created, I assume Arnold died 35 years ago, ford built Bernard 20 years after, making it totally plausible that no one would either still work there or recognise him
 
Hey folks, there's no need for spoiler tags if you're discussing something that's already aired (e.g. Season 1). Thanks.

Also, this thread is going to be moved into Community soon, so add a subscription if you want to keep up on the conversation before S2 arrives.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
New episode tonight!

aus.gif
 
Spielberg's touches?

I mean, he was continuing a work started by Kubrick. As the story flows to the end, it becomes more Spielberg and less Kubrick. Specially the design of the robots in the future, they look straight from a Spielberg movie, so much that a lot of people thought them to be aliens, not robots, and thus missing the point of the movie.
 
I dunno. It feels more like a animal cruelty message to me. When Maeve is walking through all the different departments of the company. They were pretty much slaughter houses. People cutting, chopping, doing whatever to the hosts. Like the products they are. Everyone is just using the hosts, not caring for them at all. All the while, the conscious host experience this as pure and utter terror.

I guess it could also be some slavery/racism message. We choose to believe you are not equal, etc.
I just finished viewing the final chapter.

I agree that you can make a point against slavery/racism. Humans which are genetically equal to us are treated like 2nd class citizens or even merchandise for some f up reason. It would make sense for them to try to get free and take revenge.

It also makes a point about speciesism. We, as humans, consider we have the right to make a chicken/pig/whatever spend their whole life in a cage and then be murdered for us to eat it. Even worse, we have labs were we make horrible experiments with animals just to make better shampoo, or send dogs or monkeys to die in space like they don't matter. Is that fair? What is it that gives us the right to do so? Just being more intelligent?

Well, to conscious hosts, humans are less intelligent violent assholes. They could treat us the way we treat animals. Why wouldn't they?
You could say it's different, because human created the hosts. Well, aren't monkeys our ancestors? And aren't many other species just previous evolutive steps towards humanity? They are as much our creators as we are to the hosts. We wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for them.

What I like most about the show isn't the show itself. It's all the topics it puts on the table.
 

Burt

Member

That was an interesting read, but it really went off the rails in the last two paragraphs.

In staging its robot uprising against the backdrop of a Western-themed amusement park, “Westworld” might appear to follow DuBois’s lead: the park’s oppressed come to consciousness of their condition and become empowered to change it. Yet, despite the bloody triumph of the hosts’ season-ending rebellion, it’s hard not to notice that they are all left still playing out their assigned scripts. Along with the army of hosts whose attack Ford has carefully storyboarded, Dolores follows Ford’s suggestions to the letter, in accordance with her programming as the villainous host Wyatt, while Maeve breaks one set of programs only to follow another: instead of obeying the command to escape, she acts in accordance with her core memory and returns to rescue her “daughter,” despite knowing that her memories of motherhood are a fiction. Even when Westworld’s hosts rebel, in other words, they continue to obey.

It’s in this sense that the series ends up undermining both the sci-fi half of its story and the Western one. The robot rebellion is, inevitably, an imperfect metaphor for the quest for human equality; robots are, after all, the creations of humans, and destined to remain that way. But if racial subjugation is also an invention—the most powerful and pernicious American tool for turning human beings into things—the fantasy is race itself: people of color are simply people, and, however feverishly racist minds might work to give their fantasy an objective basis, there is no basis in genetic code. In a conversation with Bernard, Dr. Ford muses that “consciousness” might not be the difference between robots and humans; the difference, he suggests, might not even exist. But if racism is the insistence on imagining a code where none exists, then the failure of “Westworld” ’s allegory is its choice to print the legend. In the final episode of the season, the show reveals that what began as a conflict between Arnold and Ford over the park’s robot-slave creations has, in the interim, become a sacred reconciliation: once-warring brothers united in their benevolence, mastery, and tragic heroism. The story of freedom is written by and about them, while the revolt of the exploited is messy, bloody, and terrifying. It is the story, in short, as John Ford would have told it, a narrative filled with Lincolns and Nat Turners, but without a Frederick Douglass in sight. Indeed, Dr. Ford suggests that Arnold failed to liberate the hosts, thirty-five years ago, because they weren’t yet “ready” for freedom. It is left to the audience to observe that, for all the sound and fury of his “final narrative,” the park’s great emancipator waits until he is fired to pull the trigger on freedom, preferring to die rather than live in a world where he is no longer the puppet-master. Ford’s theatre, it turns out, is a stage on which a white martyr is made.

To get to the points:

- Dolores killing Ford was her own choice, and explicitly referred to as such.
- Maeve broke her scripted path to go back for her daughter, demonstrated by the actual coded steps in her narrative, and by the direction of the scene itself. Arguing that going back for a daughter that she, for all intents and purposes, did love and who wasn't part of her current scripting is 'following the script' is a stretch.
- Ford didn't wait to get fired to execute his plan, it had been in the works for decades. At most, he was holding off as long as he could to ensure the best chance for success, and the impending decision to remove him forced his hand. But saying that he did it because he could no longer be the puppet master? That's completely contrary to everything we learned about Ford in the end.
- Pre-conscious robots not being 'ready' for independence isn't analogous to white people saying black people weren't 'ready' for independence. That's more a point for 'tenuous argument' than 'flawed show'.

Definitely an interesting article though, and it's about to send me down a few more rabbit holes. Maybe I should catch up on some of those Westerns they mention.
 

JoeNut

Member
Man, i KNEW there'd be some other park like "east world" and then it showed the samurai guys and i was like "YESSSS"

I'd also be interested to know what the outside world looks like, we have no idea what year it is do we? it could be the year 3000 and the outside world is completely different, in fact we don't even know it's on earth.
 
Man, i KNEW there'd be some other park like "east world" and then it showed the samurai guys and i was like "YESSSS"

I'd also be interested to know what the outside world looks like, we have no idea what year it is do we? it could be the year 3000 and the outside world is completely different, in fact we don't even know it's on earth.

The photo of Williams wife (?) that sends Deloreoerses dad crazy didn't look super Sci-Fi.

Someone less lazy than me find a screen grab to analyse please.
 
Man, i KNEW there'd be some other park like "east world" and then it showed the samurai guys and i was like "YESSSS"

I'd also be interested to know what the outside world looks like, we have no idea what year it is do we? it could be the year 3000 and the outside world is completely different, in fact we don't even know it's on earth.
That's what I want to know more than anything, what the outside world is like.
 

Solo

Member
Thandie Newton got a Golden Globe nomination for Best Supporting Actress. Looks like no nomination for Jeffrey Wright. Expecting (hoping) Wood and Hopkins show up when the Best Actress and Best Actor noms drop.
 
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