I guess you missed my point. Reviews pre launch are not something I view as a benefit for consumes. Embargo's by its existence add credence to the idea that someones opinion and number on a game is something to be followed up on with a purchase. Watching someone on youtube/giantbomb/ect play the game, with commentary is 1000 times more helpful with a purchase decision. Getting rid of embargo's would allow consumers to hear of problems as quickly as possible. As it stands, that is about the most useful from a consumer information standpoint, that early reviews have. I think the review process with games is a bad thing, because the read like movie reviews but are respected like consumer endorsements to the casual public. I get what you are saying, I just disagree with it being a net benefit. Without embargo's reviews would be looked at more skeptically, imo, because of the reasons you mentioned. Right now, it seems, to me that reviews have a sense of trust/weight to them that they just shouldn't have, imo.
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What happened to this Industry?
- Thread starter Stripper13
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I guess you missed my point. Reviews pre launch are not something I view as a benefit for consumes. Embargo's by its existence add credence to the idea that someones opinion and number on a game is something to be followed up on with a purchase. Watching someone on youtube/giantbomb/ect play the game, with commentary is 1000 times more helpful with a purchase decision. Getting rid of embargo's would allow consumers to hear of problems as quickly as possible. As it stands, that is about the most useful from a consumer information standpoint, that early reviews have. I think the review process with games is a bad thing, because the read like movie reviews but are respected like consumer endorsements to the casual public. I get what you are saying, I just disagree with it being a net benefit. Without embargo's reviews would be looked at more skeptically, imo, because of the reasons you mentioned. Right now, it seems, to me that reviews have a sense of trust/weight to them that they just shouldn't have, imo.
I dont know entirely if I would blame game journalists here or not. There are no shortage of people willing to regurgitate PR, so any writer with integrity will be replaced with or ignored in favour of someone willing to say whatever the publisher wants.
The problem at the moment is the balance of power is with the big studios, they craft their PR message, they control which information gets out via NDAs, they have embargoes on sub-par products (skyrim ps3) and they know they have that level of control.
This isnt like normal news where events happen and people can report on it if they can get on site. This is a business where people can report if they get invited and sign agreements and run the risk of being blacklisted by people like PR agents who wont give you review copies if you upset them on twitter.
It's no wonder the same 4 games every year get big sales, uniform metacritic scores and massive hype campaigns.
Unless the end users learn patience and stop relying on EXCLUSIVE REVIEWS!!!!111! nothing will change.
The problem at the moment is the balance of power is with the big studios, they craft their PR message, they control which information gets out via NDAs, they have embargoes on sub-par products (skyrim ps3) and they know they have that level of control.
This isnt like normal news where events happen and people can report on it if they can get on site. This is a business where people can report if they get invited and sign agreements and run the risk of being blacklisted by people like PR agents who wont give you review copies if you upset them on twitter.
It's no wonder the same 4 games every year get big sales, uniform metacritic scores and massive hype campaigns.
Unless the end users learn patience and stop relying on EXCLUSIVE REVIEWS!!!!111! nothing will change.
phosphor112
Banned
Games "journalists" don't break NDA's so they can go to these special events, get free games and consoles to review, but as a result, they have to be nice. There is nothing else like it. Movies, music... nothing else is set up the way the games industry is.
robertsan21
Member
Gaming journalism is dead, and have been so for the last 10 years.
Grow some balls journalists and go full out and FUCK the rules like any respectful journalist would.
Grow some balls journalists and go full out and FUCK the rules like any respectful journalist would.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You may be right that reviews have more trust put on them then they should. In fact, I pretty much agree with you on that point. I'm not very trusting of let's plays either. Even TB tends to get stuck up on a single point that shouldn't really matter when there are many other aspects to cover that he never gets to.
Anyway, regarding pre-launch reviews and even reviews in general, I just see them as a single factor towards determining whether I want to purchase the product. I can't say I've never been convinced to purchase a game by a review, but I can say it is extremely rare.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
To quote Scroobius Pip:
"As the blogger becomes the journalist the art form dies
They don't have the sources anymore they just have Google finds
Referencing other websites as if they're well sourced scriptures
Focused on getting their hits up not winning Pulitzers
Their journalism is lazy in the need to be first
I do more research than some of them when penning a verse
And you know how you are, we just believe it's the truth
We just accept it as news instead of asking for proof
But in a way the Internet makes journalism redundant
Freedom of information despite the attempts of some governments
Man tweets while WikiLeaks, spilling the truth of the troublesome
But truths become perspectives as soon as man discovers 'em
And it ain't just the news reporters it's the muso's too
If you got a music blog, then son, I'm probably talking to you
Don't skim intros, listen to each track through
And maybe running a spell check before you post a review
They drop a million band names to get the Google hits
Remember, "You heard it here first" and it was in bold italics
Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick
But make no mistake, you're walls still covered in shit
There's obtrusive new remits on the promotion slog
We need exclusive new remixes to service the blogs
And half of these online networks are flattery operated
Hand feed them but let them think it was internally propagated
Your lines are recycled, you have no identity
Your words ain't gifted when they're lifted from my fucking press release
Your opinions next to nothing and that's all you'll amount to
You're so vain you probably DON'T think this song is about you"
Video game journalism is gloridified PR and it has been for a while. There's no "breaking news" just what a company allows you to hear via IGN or Eurogamer or whatever. It's lazy and deceptive to call what most bloggers do "journalism". These people are in a place where they get to play and talk about games for a living, but still feel entitled to consoles, to games, to exclusives, to complete access and, yet, will still only offer whatever fits their agenda, the agenda of advertisers or the agenda of the company handing out well worded PR statements. This "controversy" with the PS4 right now or those "XBox One IGN AMA" wankfests.
I don't even bother with reviews because they mean next to nothing and there's no point in reading a website when the news breaks first on Twitter or here or anywhere other than major game websites.... if it even breaks at all, how is mainstream cover of CoD resolutions?
"As the blogger becomes the journalist the art form dies
They don't have the sources anymore they just have Google finds
Referencing other websites as if they're well sourced scriptures
Focused on getting their hits up not winning Pulitzers
Their journalism is lazy in the need to be first
I do more research than some of them when penning a verse
And you know how you are, we just believe it's the truth
We just accept it as news instead of asking for proof
But in a way the Internet makes journalism redundant
Freedom of information despite the attempts of some governments
Man tweets while WikiLeaks, spilling the truth of the troublesome
But truths become perspectives as soon as man discovers 'em
And it ain't just the news reporters it's the muso's too
If you got a music blog, then son, I'm probably talking to you
Don't skim intros, listen to each track through
And maybe running a spell check before you post a review
They drop a million band names to get the Google hits
Remember, "You heard it here first" and it was in bold italics
Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick
But make no mistake, you're walls still covered in shit
There's obtrusive new remits on the promotion slog
We need exclusive new remixes to service the blogs
And half of these online networks are flattery operated
Hand feed them but let them think it was internally propagated
Your lines are recycled, you have no identity
Your words ain't gifted when they're lifted from my fucking press release
Your opinions next to nothing and that's all you'll amount to
You're so vain you probably DON'T think this song is about you"
Video game journalism is gloridified PR and it has been for a while. There's no "breaking news" just what a company allows you to hear via IGN or Eurogamer or whatever. It's lazy and deceptive to call what most bloggers do "journalism". These people are in a place where they get to play and talk about games for a living, but still feel entitled to consoles, to games, to exclusives, to complete access and, yet, will still only offer whatever fits their agenda, the agenda of advertisers or the agenda of the company handing out well worded PR statements. This "controversy" with the PS4 right now or those "XBox One IGN AMA" wankfests.
I don't even bother with reviews because they mean next to nothing and there's no point in reading a website when the news breaks first on Twitter or here or anywhere other than major game websites.... if it even breaks at all, how is mainstream cover of CoD resolutions?
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
He's also neither a journalist, critic, or likely to be employed in a information sensitive environment within the same company where behavior like that would eventually be picked up. Which is to say that he doesn't bite the hand that feeds him, and some other hand is (paying his bills). Journalism is a job, and that means finding something to write (about) every unit of time. Day, week, month, and so forth, but likely day or weekly.
It really can't be compared.
the DRM "proposal" as Mattrick tried to spin it and other thing suggest otherwise though. As someone said: this is really the first gen where the effect of social media penetration is felt on all ends.
One of the things that Gakai might be used for, for instance, is removing demo disks from the equation altogether. I'm really not hoping to give any ideas here, but having to play with "marketing hanging over your shoulder" might not be exclusive to events going forward.
Thats because the consumer is the most important part of the industry. I also have the basic ability of not going to an event if I dont agree with it, and even speak out if I believe it goes against the basic principles of what my job is supposed to be. So why do we need game journalists again?
As people have already said, it's probably all about money. Publishers, even developers, will want to control public perception of their product for as long as possible. Since these tend to be million or even billion dollar products, they will limit or reduce possible interpretations of their information to whatever their goal may be.
Pretty much everything about retail game development is shrouded in mystery, to varying degrees.
Pretty much everything about retail game development is shrouded in mystery, to varying degrees.
It's pretty easy to see what is wrong.
Websites want reviews up at the earliest possible time.
Publishers notice this, and give them early access to games for review, but with an embargo.
Websites take said early access and keep their mouth shut on details, but bitch about it.
Publishers notice that websites always want another taste, so they use them as PR as well.
Websites continue to roll over for the publishers because they need that next hit.
Websites want reviews up at the earliest possible time.
Publishers notice this, and give them early access to games for review, but with an embargo.
Websites take said early access and keep their mouth shut on details, but bitch about it.
Publishers notice that websites always want another taste, so they use them as PR as well.
Websites continue to roll over for the publishers because they need that next hit.
Stripper13
Member
One is, more often that not, following rules, NDA's, embargo's and other bullshit that filters all information from a game both on a hype and technical level - in carefully selected pieces across an extremely specific marketing plan.
The other is digging up truths and revealing them to the people who care, and will read them.
They may not be comparable - but one of them definitely sounds more like a journalist in my books.
Stripper13
Member
Probably the best summary of gaming journalism I've read in a while now.
It's a very young form of entertainment, in my opinion too young for how much money it's bringing in. I feel like corporations and businessmen transformed the AAA industry into a soulless, homogenous money-making machine when it should have been experimenting, attracting creatives and broadening it's scope. Journalists are just a cog in that machine, so finely tuned to maximise sales. It just seems unnatural how the AAA industry is now, especially in such a short amount of time. It's like if cinema never had the classical or post-classical eras (or had them extremely reduced), and instead churned out shit like Transformers and Iron Man when it should have been maturing as a medium.
I agree with you in theory but:
All information is with the game companies. If you want access you sign the NDA's. "investigative journalism" is nigh impossible if we are talking about new releases.
If you refuse to be part of this cycle the sites with the NDA's gets the money and the clicks since you will always be late to the party.
Very few companies aside from game companies are willing to fund game sites through ads - gamers don't either btw.
The way information is filtered in the industry sucks. But i don't think it's the journalists that are mainly at fault.
No-one else needs to say anything because this guy has hit the nail on the head.
Stripper13
Member
I agree - and it wasn't my intention to aim specifically at journalists (re-reading my OP, I can see how one might think that), but rather the industry as a whole.
walking fiend
Member
Being a Nintendo fan, I find Nintendo Direct and Iwata interviews very reliable sources of info. Industry is not just MS and Sony being knee deep in red.
This is the truth.
Knowing how this industry works, if there was a site that decided to take a stand and use investigative journalism for all of their articles they'd be blacklisted everywhere within a day.
If this helped them win an audience then that probably wouldn't matter. But would you visit a site that had no reviews/previews/ developer access because it had been basically cut off from the industry?
All it would have would be the odd article uncovering the truth, but I'm not sure this would be enough to win an audience or pay it's staff. It's a fine line unfortunately and with PR basically controlling everyone, without access to developers and their games, it'd be very difficult to keep your website going.
If this helped them win an audience then that probably wouldn't matter. But would you visit a site that had no reviews/previews/ developer access because it had been basically cut off from the industry?
All it would have would be the odd article uncovering the truth, but I'm not sure this would be enough to win an audience or pay it's staff. It's a fine line unfortunately and with PR basically controlling everyone, without access to developers and their games, it'd be very difficult to keep your website going.
Game journalism does not really exist anymore, and perhaps never did in this industry. The sites and the people are nothing more than extended marketing tools for publishers to use, they all want the next scoop but have to play by the rules in order to even get the review copy/interview/media.
Consumers have finally figured this out, most know about this, once you were dismissed as a crazed conspirator by even suggesting this, it took us several incidents to get here, Gerstmann getting fired by GameSpot being a major one.
When they were defending Microsofts abysmal DRM policies, it finally broke the camels back, people stop giving a shit and decided to raise hell on their own, because these people were not doing it "oh it sounds kinda interesting, always online, oh yeah nice feature". They were being outright condescending, saying they were just the minority who did not care, yet MS ended up 180 all of it, showing that the outrage and it spilling to the mainstream did matter and it was not just a small minority but large amounts of people who did care.
Enough is enough. So enthusiast gamers became the journalist, its the only place where actual news is found these days and not marketing influenced preview builds. If they cannot and will not do their jobs, then the average consumer has to, because the truth and the details are important.
So what happened? The enthusiast consumer became the journalist, while the "journalist" has blended in with the rest of all the publishers. Slick talk, marketing buzz words, phoney smile infront of the camera.
EDIT: Example: Not a single journalist came to the consumers side when Skyrim on PS3 launched and was riddled with bugs and slowdowns, not one dared criticize Bethesda or warn the consumer about this version, the game even got the same score on many sites. The fucks they gave were zero, nada, nothing. It was only months later, after the hype marketing train was over, after people bought the game, that they ran small stories about it, never really giving Bethesda the absolute hell they deserved. Despicable
Consumers have finally figured this out, most know about this, once you were dismissed as a crazed conspirator by even suggesting this, it took us several incidents to get here, Gerstmann getting fired by GameSpot being a major one.
When they were defending Microsofts abysmal DRM policies, it finally broke the camels back, people stop giving a shit and decided to raise hell on their own, because these people were not doing it "oh it sounds kinda interesting, always online, oh yeah nice feature". They were being outright condescending, saying they were just the minority who did not care, yet MS ended up 180 all of it, showing that the outrage and it spilling to the mainstream did matter and it was not just a small minority but large amounts of people who did care.
Enough is enough. So enthusiast gamers became the journalist, its the only place where actual news is found these days and not marketing influenced preview builds. If they cannot and will not do their jobs, then the average consumer has to, because the truth and the details are important.
So what happened? The enthusiast consumer became the journalist, while the "journalist" has blended in with the rest of all the publishers. Slick talk, marketing buzz words, phoney smile infront of the camera.
EDIT: Example: Not a single journalist came to the consumers side when Skyrim on PS3 launched and was riddled with bugs and slowdowns, not one dared criticize Bethesda or warn the consumer about this version, the game even got the same score on many sites. The fucks they gave were zero, nada, nothing. It was only months later, after the hype marketing train was over, after people bought the game, that they ran small stories about it, never really giving Bethesda the absolute hell they deserved. Despicable
SwiftDeath
Member
Yeah I always thought Game journalism was a bit of an oxymoron
It's more like 3rd party PR for the most part
I feel we need a wikileaks for gaming but I guess that's cboat
It's more like 3rd party PR for the most part
I feel we need a wikileaks for gaming but I guess that's cboat
Game industry created the monster, not the other way around.
walking fiend
Member
If people stop preordering games and buying games around launch, there GAF itself will be full of impressions they will find useful. A few will be the casualty, but the rest will thrive.
My fucking dude. God damn I love you. If it weren't 4 am, I'd say the same thing.
This shit is too real for most people.
the fuck is this. game fans are the reason for the season. If you think the buzz in the hyper-mega-buzz chamber is too loud and rambunctious, then step outside of it. If it becomes a love-hate-self-hate relationship between gamers and game makers then we all may as well go buy football cleats and hang our controllers up, because who's going to win that battle?
Resentment towards gamers isn't going to help anything.
Ovek
7Member7
The gaming press have been in the back pocket of big publishers for as long as I can remember, take PC Gamer in the UK back in the mid/late 90s some of the crap they published was blatant and guess who got most of the exclusives.
Places like neogaf are borderline hated if not out right hated by the press because it makes them more irrelevant every day.
Places like neogaf are borderline hated if not out right hated by the press because it makes them more irrelevant every day.
Money is the short answer.
Market growth, large corporations, increase in investment to produce merchandise and risk coupled with an immature "hobbyist" review/report infrastructure of internet centric groups vying for attention is the slightly longer answer and beyond that you're into dissertation length analysis!
Market growth, large corporations, increase in investment to produce merchandise and risk coupled with an immature "hobbyist" review/report infrastructure of internet centric groups vying for attention is the slightly longer answer and beyond that you're into dissertation length analysis!
something fishy
Member
The inability to get a straight answer from anyone is very disappointing as is the way this industry loves it secrets, it's insiders, it's knowing nods and winks, if likes to take the piss out if the customer, who seems barely a consideration anymore.
Stop taking the piss, stop being cowards and tell the customer what is going on. Don't sit their giggling and nodding whilst we get ripped off if that's about to happen.
Stop taking the piss, stop being cowards and tell the customer what is going on. Don't sit their giggling and nodding whilst we get ripped off if that's about to happen.
It's the same in nearly all tech journalism, be it gadgets, PC Hardware, Hi-Fi, Photo and so on. They all rely on review devices from the manufacturer and on those fancy reveal events. It's nearly in all fields where journalists are reliant on the goodwill of the subjects they're reporting on.
something fishy
Member
The writers themselves are too often brand fans and far too close to their preferred choice to be objective sadly.
Sone real journos who cut through the crap and who are loyal to nobody would be a breath of fresh air.
Great post. Also this whole resolution business has shown that GAF can replace the gaming news sites as shit breaks here. Hopefully, this new generation will kill off the gaming news sites and only sites like giantbomb where their content is more entertainment focused than news focused will remain.
Fantastic post. Not only would I read again, but I would support and fight for your banner.
Brianimaniac
Banned
I don't care about any of this because I got away from that "gotta have it on day one" mindset. The people are my journalists. I don't need games press to uncover these truths for me with their exclusive early access because I can just wait for things to make it into the wild and get all the info I need from my fellow consumer.
I think the industry has never been healthier since 2006
No more:
- motion gaming everywhere
- mobile/f2p/social is the future
Also :
- 2 good next gen console and a new platform releasing in 2014
- interesting games in the first months
- lots of good indie games
- great engines and techs for all needs.
No more:
- motion gaming everywhere
- mobile/f2p/social is the future
Also :
- 2 good next gen console and a new platform releasing in 2014
- interesting games in the first months
- lots of good indie games
- great engines and techs for all needs.
this. this, and this.
Brianimaniac
Banned
The audience for this stuff has a serious problem with criticizing people that aren't journalists for not being journalists.
I agree with a lot of the OPs sentiment. You cant simply laugh it all off as an over reaction or "lol welcome to gaf". It's a disturbing truth about our industry.
There's no solution by and large; it's too big for us mere mortals to tackle.
The way round it is simple though; Don't buy a product until you've tried it yourself.
There's no solution by and large; it's too big for us mere mortals to tackle.
The way round it is simple though; Don't buy a product until you've tried it yourself.
Square Enix would like a word with you.
The industry hasn't changed -- we have. Our desire to explore every fine detail of a product long before it releases is something unique to the tech industry, especially on the gaming side.
The industry operates under a level of fan scrutiny that was unheard of in the past and is unlike any other product driven industry, save for those that have a cross section into gaming (PC hardware).
Cellphones are the biggest thing going right now... does Apple share every last shred of information about its devices? Absolutely Not. In fact, Apple doesn't share a single detail about its phones until a week before they're ready to ship -- and even then, you only know what they want you to know and they cherry pick which reviewers get dibs on the first reviews.
The industry operates under a level of fan scrutiny that was unheard of in the past and is unlike any other product driven industry, save for those that have a cross section into gaming (PC hardware).
Cellphones are the biggest thing going right now... does Apple share every last shred of information about its devices? Absolutely Not. In fact, Apple doesn't share a single detail about its phones until a week before they're ready to ship -- and even then, you only know what they want you to know and they cherry pick which reviewers get dibs on the first reviews.
Good post. The thing I blame the majority of gaming reviewers for is being complicit in this shit which is what enabled it to get so out of control in the first place. It is silly to expect any individual reviewer to fix it now, but they can still shoulder a portion of the responsibility for getting the industry to this point.
The larger sites could also contribute towards fixing it by employing 1 or 2 real journalists each to actually write some more in depth pieces.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Wow... And here am I, wishing I could go back to the times where the only gaming info I got was from magazines....
Interestingly enough, look what happened when Gamespot did that retrospective review on Bioshock Infinite. Free from the shackles of publisher pressure and release day hype, the final review was vasty different.
Interestingly enough, several reviewers and Gaffers said that despite the score being harsh, they agreed fully with the text.
That's a pretty fucking scary indication of how much outside influence there is.
Interestingly enough, several reviewers and Gaffers said that despite the score being harsh, they agreed fully with the text.
That's a pretty fucking scary indication of how much outside influence there is.
Great question.
I've read reviews for several high profile games where all they praise is the story. The gameplay is rarely mentioned. These games have all gotten 10s, I just think its a sad day when a game can get such a high score when the gameplay is derivative, repetitive and shallow.
I've read reviews for several high profile games where all they praise is the story. The gameplay is rarely mentioned. These games have all gotten 10s, I just think its a sad day when a game can get such a high score when the gameplay is derivative, repetitive and shallow.
Exactly. You see people like J Schrier making those sorts of comments on GAF quite often, and whether he succeeds as a journalist (formal definition) I don't know since I'm not qualified, but his heart seems in the right place and that's the kind of attitude more journalists could express publicly.
Instead we get people like Arthur Gies who actively fights his audience, or Geoff Keighley who makes no bones about selling whatever he can or whatever is the big AAAAAAA release for the month (and to be fair, I dont think anyone expects anything different from him).
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