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[Uncle Rupee]

ooh yeah, that's a looker for sure

You're a fool to judge Vagrant Story by a single screen shot. Anyone who has played it knows that it had masterful art direction given the limitations of the PS1.

Just check out the detail on this guy. I think it still looks fantastic today. Its one of the PS1 games that has aged very well imo.

 

[Wasp]

I'm probably in the minority but I thought the minimalist art worked well for the game. I think they were going for an anime style. At least it was easily readable considering the ultra low resolution of the game.

I prefer it to FFVIII's vastly more detailed models which are more painful on the eyes. Too much detail with too small a resolution.

Is that even made of polygons? Looks likes sprites. I'm aware I'm probably comparing a PC screen with a PS1 screen here.

 

[Ceallach]

FF8 in Hi-res on the PC looks good too.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Chrono Cross still amazes me in the looks department.

Gran Turismo 2 as well. VS+GT2+CC+FFIX was some goooooooooood 3D for that era; made the jump to DC not quite as steep or as amazing as it otherwise would have been.

FF7 feels like it has like 5 different art styles for the same characters in the same game. It's all over the place.

And yet it still gels in situ. That's definately something to praise it for, that not being noticed.

You're a fool to judge Vagrant Story by a single screen shot. Anyone who has played it knows that it had masterful art direction given the limitations of the PS1.

Just check out the detail on this guy. I think it still looks fantastic today. Its one of the PS1 games that has aged very well imo.

The animation, choreography, plus what tricks and techniques others have stated along with the unmentioned "bleed" effect of backlighting...

...gave it amazing effect for its lack of power, and also kept those jaggies in-line and under control.

Ah Vagrant Story....

 

[TheJollyCorner]

What game is that?

that's FFVII's first iteration on the SNES.

Speculation is that they used an updated model for Locke, but I believe it's based on Nomura's design for Tifa's father:

That image is from the FF 25th Anniversary Ultimania, I believe.

 

[R0nn]

I now want that SNES version of FFVII to be released.

 

[genjiZERO]

Final Fantasy 7 looked just fine for the time period it came out it. The characters are blocky to make them more visible in the overworld.

 

[Foolworm]

I disagree strongly.
Squaresoft was already well known for having top-notch graphic and sound design all through the 16-bit era. All the FF games, Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3, the Romancing Saga games, Chrono Trigger, Bahamut Lagoon, Front Mission, just to name a few.

FFVI was the first SNES game to use all of the systems 256 color capabilities, which was a graphic marvel at the time.
I can still remember looking in GameFan in early '94 and being absolutely floored when I saw stills of FFVI.

Compare Sega's Phantasy Star IV to Square's Final Fantasy VI. They came out within 4 months of each other (in Japan, at least)

[...]

The amount of colors, texture work, character models (and animation, albeit simple), and effects outclassed any other console RPG at the time- and stood pretty damn well against non-RPGs, too.

If you want to do a comparison, at least resize the FFVI image to bring it in line. It's not really possible to appreciate the crispness of the graphics when the individual pixels are visible.

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/top10snes/

While the leap from V to VI is pretty impressive, it hardly stands out from Square's catalog at the time. They earned their reputation for graphical prowess on the consistent high caliber across their franchises, and it shows. FF was their flagship franchise for its longevity and mechanics, not its graphical prowess.

Also, screenshots don't bring out what I consider to be PSIV's greatest strength - its animation work. What really impressed me was how everything moved. The cutscenes and portrait work were also fantastic - remember that this is an age where cutscenes, if they existed at all, were limited either to static frames or in-game events.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Maybe Squaresoft had no clue how 3D worked back then?
Many games looked like this.

Also a $45 million budget? Seriously? Not more like $4.5 million? I can't imagine FF7 to have been this expensive to make.

Nah, it was expensive as fuck.

 

[Vecks]

It may look pretty bad today, but I remember people were talking about how amazing the graphics were back then.

 

[thomasmahler]

What game is that?

It's an early concept version of Final Fantasy VII.

 

[monlo]

it's not much different than other games of its time

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

One thing to keep in mind is Square didn't get their rep for making graphically impressive games until FF7 came out.

FFIV didn't look that great... FFVI was a good-looking game but nothing mindblowning.

BS Final Fantasy VI was the best looking SNES RPG I had ever seen and I am sure I am not the only one. From the moment you turn the game on and see the clouds lighting up, I was floored. That was in 1994 and today I still think Final Fantasy VI is graphically impressive for a 16 bit console game.

 

[Foolworm]

I disagree strongly.
Squaresoft was already well known for having top-notch graphic and sound design all through the 16-bit era. All the FF games, Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3, the Romancing Saga games, Chrono Trigger, Bahamut Lagoon, Front Mission, just to name a few.

FFVI was the first SNES game to use all of the systems 256 color capabilities, which was a graphic marvel at the time.
I can still remember looking in GameFan in early '94 and being absolutely floored when I saw stills of FFVI.

[images of gorgeous 16 bit artwork]

The amount of colors, texture work, character models (and animation, albeit simple), and effects outclassed any other console RPG at the time- and stood pretty damn well against non-RPGs, too.

If you want to do a comparison, at least resize the FFVI image to bring it in line. It's not really possible to appreciate the crispness of the graphics when the individual pixels are visible.

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/top10snes/

While the leap from V to VI is pretty impressive, it hardly stands out from Square's catalog at the time. They earned their reputation for graphical prowess on the consistent high caliber across their franchises, and it shows. FF was their flagship franchise for its longevity and mechanics, not its graphical prowess.

Also, screenshots don't bring out what I consider to be PSIV's greatest strength - its animation work. What really impressed me was how everything moved. The cutscenes and portrait work were also fantastic - remember that this is an age where cutscenes, if they existed at all, were limited either to static frames or in-game events.

 

[Kimaka]

I'm probably in the minority but I thought the minimalist art worked well for the game. I think they were going for an anime style. At least it was easily readable considering the ultra low resolution of the game.



I prefer it to FFVIII's vastly more detailed models which are more painful on the eyes. Too much detail with too small a resolution.



Is that even made of polygons? Looks likes sprites. I'm aware I'm probably comparing a PC screen with a PS1 screen here.

I agree. FFVIII and FFIX model's look like a mess of blurry pixels to me now. FFVII holds up better at least when playing it on the Playstation.

 

[Synless]

I would take FF8 & 9's character models over 7's any day of the week. Those muddy textures look far better than that blocky shit.

 

[Muffdraul]

My recollection is that in 1997, lots and lots of FFVII players openly acknowledged that the field character models were relatively crappy... but the vast majority simply didn't really care, because the game had more than enough eye candy to make up for it. The backgrounds, the special fx for spells, the summons, the FMV... whining about the models wasn't exactly a priority. The phrase "graphics whore" was specifically coined during the FFVII flamewars in '97. Many accused FFVII of having only one good quality: awesome graphics.

 

[Foolworm]

They were trying to copy the "chibi" in-game sprites from the 2D FF games, but with polygons.

This is kind of right, but they weren't just 'copying' the look - they were working from the old perspective of presentation that was inherited from 2D JRPGs and it shows. The cinematic method of presentation simply did not exist in gaming at the time - it took titles like MGS to show the industry what was really possible with 3D. I rather think Square saw MGS and had a 'holy shit, that's possible?' moment, copied it, and never looked back. It is for this reason I consider VII to be the last true classical FF and not VI (IX is a homage, and a loving one at that).

Therefore, the answer to OP's question was that they were working within the old SFC paradigm and never stopped to think about it. Notice that the camera in VII is static and zoomed out by comparison to VIII, which reflects the mentality of the time. This naturally promotes emphasis on background art rather than characters due to simple scale. With the lack of focus on the characters in the overworld, there was consequently little incentive to model characters in meaningful detail. Rather, effort was placed into creating distinctive character designs that were instantly differentiable. The dynamic camera in the battle scenes was used because of the emphasis on the characters and monsters, with corresponding improvements in modelling as a result.

The really awkward parts came in closed, tight environments and in-game cutscenes when the camera had to close in on characters. This was simply not a problem in the 2D era, since the camera was fixed - developers could draw a room in a house and leave the rest of the screen black. Ever notice that the entire screen is always used from VIII onward? The old paradigm is also the reason why they did not use the battle models for in-game cutscenes - it simply wasn't considered. There was a clear distinction between FMV, in-game and battle segments, and the setup of the programming modules reflects that.

Tl;dr: The FFVII team wasn't really copying the 2D FF games; rather, they were working from a closed mindset since the cinematic method of presentation did not exist in gaming at the time.

 

[bwahhhhh]

I agree. FFVIII and FFIX model's look like a mess of blurry pixels to me now. FFVII holds up better at least when playing it on the Playstation.

yeah, same, I felt that even back then. all of the details they put into the FFVIII models just seemed obscured/warping all over the place, especially when the characters are close to the camera.

I don't recall VIII or IX having as many characters on-screen (in the pre-rendered background areas), either, as say, for example, the parade for Rufus. could be another reason why they went so low-poly, to make the scenes feel more populated than they could using more detailed models. but I think it was mostly just art choice, chibi-characters to bridge the gap between the 2D FFs and the other 3D FFs.

 

[Foolworm]

All of the details they put into the FFVIII models just seemed obscured/warping all over the place, especially when the characters are close to the camera. I don't recall VIII or IX having as many characters on-screen (in the pre-rendered background areas), either, as say, for example, the parade for Rufus. could be another reason why they went so low-poly, to make the scenes feel more populated than they could using more detailed models. but I think it was mostly just art choice, chibi-characters to bridge the gap between the 2D FFs and the other 3D FFs.

Keep in mind that there were technical limits to what they could do. The PS era was the first 3D generation, after all - there were bound to be problems as developers struggled to master an entirely new approach to presentation. This was also the moment where the bottleneck constraints shifted from storage to memory.

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

Sykoex and duckroll are spot on.

Personally, I think most of the appeal of old Final Fantasy games is how charming everything looks and sounds, from the colorful chibi-like models to the upbeat music. It reminds you of simpler times and everything is so simple you end up filling the gaps with your imagination. Final Fantasy nowdays lacks all that. It's like comparing a kids movie from the 80s, like the Neverending Story, and something more actual. The first one was a neat idea that captured someone's imagination while the second was created by a focus group.

Square has to go back to that simplicity.

 

[pillowtalk]

They didn't look that bad...

 

[Ether_Snake]

Yeah I remember playing Vagrant Story and thinking "holy shit, imagine how games will be on the next consoles!".

 

[Meccanical]

Because Sakaguchi wanted them that way and it was the first 3D game they ever did.

 

[Mr Swine]

it's not much different than other games of its time

Difference is that Mario 64 has a fully polygon world whereas FF7 has a fully pure rendered world with only very low polygon characters. Only in battle the models look a lot better

 

[H_Prestige]

Sykoex and duckroll are spot on.

Personally, I think most of the appeal of old Final Fantasy games is how charming everything looks and sounds, from the colorful chibi-like models to the upbeat music. It reminds you of simpler times and everything is so simple you end up filling the gaps with your imagination. Final Fantasy nowdays lacks all that. It's like comparing a kids movie from the 80s, like the Neverending Story, and something more actual. The first one was a neat idea that captured someone's imagination while the second was created by a focus group.

Square has to go back to that simplicity.

Unfortunately they can't. Only place where games like old school FF can sell nowadays is 3DS. Maybe Wii U for consoles.

 

[Freshmaker]

This was the most expensive game of its time, with a budget of around 45 million dollars, 120 artists, on one of the most advanced consoles out, and the best they could do for the character models was this?
http://i.imgur.com/89p2Gzx.png

Its just always seemed so bizarre to me. Were the standards really THAT different back then? Was the software not developed enough to create something properly textured like the character models in Final Fantasy 8?

I think it was in part to make the characters stand out from the backgrounds. They were kinda busy and a weird looking goofy shape helped.

FF8 models tended to look worse IMO since they dissolved into pixels when they were further away from the camera thanks to the low resolution. Looks better via emulation, but on the target hardware, it was pretty rough.

 

[aaaaaa]

Pretty sure they were designed with long shots in mind, like all of the 2D games had their characters. And then the game used a ton of close-ups and medium shots where the models look terrible.

 

[StuBurns]

Difference is that Mario 64 has a fully polygon world whereas FF7 has a fully pure rendered world with only very low polygon characters. Only in battle the models look a lot better

In battle they're in a 3d world too. I've never understood that, I would think it should be the opposite.

 

[Rhapsody]

I didn't mind the character models outside of battles. It also reminded me of FF1-5 where the models outside of battle were simple anyways.

 

[I'm new be nice]

Unfortunately they can't. Only place where games like old school FF can sell nowadays is 3DS. Maybe Wii U for consoles.

I think some 16-bit sprites on smartphones would look killer. It really bothers me that all these FF games on iPhone/android are polygonal.

 

[JordanN]

I'm surprise people are defending it/accept it since those quality of models do suck.

I only put up with it because of the tech limitations/primitive software back then but they're horrible to look at. What's worse is the PS1 had the "snapping polygon" defect so it's almost like peering through boxes whenever the characters moved.

 

[Reversed]

It was posted here before, but in case you want to know how the FFVII engine works, have a (lengthy) look at it .

 

[Zombie James]

A bit off-topic, but I've never seen this image before:

Apparently, they also played around with making Final Fantasy VII isometric without rendered backgrounds. Quite charming.

Where did this come from?

 

[butanebob]

I actually think they've aged better than other games of the same era.

 

[B.K.]

Where did this come from?

Final Fantasy 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

Yeah waste of resources I guess. Needed them for those sweet sweet backgrounds ~ ~

Man, I forgot how fucking good that game looked. I loved the atmosphere it conveyed.

 

[clem84]

- PSX limitations
- baby steps into PSX development

 

[HoodWinked]

Shut your filthy mouth. D:

no honestly it was purely aesthetics. inbattle models had more realistic proportions.

 

[jaxword]

and yet, those sprites brought forth more emotions and character connection than any of the FF13 puppets.

Haha, taking any excuse at all to yell out "I hate modern FF" vitriol, even when it's unrelated.

It's not even true, dude, it's all personal perception.

 

[Fusion916]

I made this video over 3 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icI6Ejc9UKw

 

[Spongebob]

They weren't at the point capable of pushing the PS to its limits.

Personally I think the character models have aged decently.

 

[Raonak]

Surely it was because of technical/engine limitations, the game had gorgeous 3D modelling for the backgrounds.

 

[Seik]

I made this video over 3 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icI6Ejc9UKw

Wow...'of all time'

 

[jaxword]

What a lot of people are forgetting is that FF7 was evolving rapidly while it was being made.

That's why there's such variety in the model quality.

Note that the SD models appear in some of the CGI fmvs, but in OTHER cutscenes they are realistically proportioned. In other words, the cutscene designers were told to make the characters fit the SD models at one point, but then later on other FMVs were changed to be more realistic.



Cloud landing on train FMV:

OMG spoilers

It's clear the development of FF7's art assets was done by different teams learning the tech at different speeds. So the SD character models were probably decided early on and never changed.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

They made the game unplayable to me. I had to get the pc version and mod it to hell and back.

 

[Yoshichan]

Yeah waste of resources I guess. Needed them for those sweet sweet backgrounds ~ ~

Fucking beautiful. The best looking game of all time.

 

[Ahasverus]

Fucking beautiful. The best looking game of all time.

 

[Mupod]

As Forkball said it definitely seemed to me like they were going for the super deformed look of the previous sprite-based games.

Yet, when I first got the game on PC, I had been taken in by all the hype of it being one of the best looking games ever. I knew very little about it save what was on the box.

So I start the game up, and see a misshapen blob of polygons vault off of a prerendered train. I thought something was wrong with my video card. That port had a lot of issues, but nope it's supposed to look like that.

In retrospect I like the exploration models. It just looks incredibly dumb when they show up in cutscenes.

 

[Shadow780]

http://i.imgur.com/v693ml9.png[IMG]
[/QUOTE]

lol that expression is hilarious

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tPD2SgG.jpg