Rogue_Ledr
Banned
Dude, that was one of the first big 3D titles released.
It was damn good looking for its time.
It was damn good looking for its time.
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Why were the Final Fantasy 7 character models so bad?
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The pre-rendered backgrounds haven't aged at all tho
KittenMaster
Member
It was really the poor textures that bring out the low polys, even within battle where most of the textures you see are subtle uses of the gradient flood fill.
Vagrant Story had amazing models and textures for a ps1 game. To me it's the best looking game on the ps1.
Vagrant Story was a confluence of excellence. Great visuals, great audio, great gameplay, and great writing.
I know things in development aren't necessarily done in a linear matter (compared to how the game progresses) but isn't discrepancy between SD and 'realistic' models a little weird when comparing when they appear? Ex. the 'realistic' models of the highwind scene you posted (Tifa) appearing relatively late in the game compared to Cloud landing on train with the SD model. If they decided it early on, I figure the early game potions would be the more realistic looking ones?
I think instead it was how important the cutscenes were. For example, the party hijacking the Shinra truck and motorcycle use the realistic models, but earlier on a more poverty model is used in a fmv:
The fort condor battle enemies look really really bad.
I think that's hiwntheybthkught 3d would look with the gourad shaded polygons. That's what Mario 64 looked like.
Plus the fact that those models had to be both way up close on the screen and waaay at the back. Snes era models always appeared the same size. Probably couldn't afford time or resources to make every character model in the game fully scalable that way. They game took long enough to develop as it is.
Character models aside, I think ffvii still looks and plays great. The 3d cut scenes have aged a lot better than some games from that era.
I think that's hiwntheybthkught 3d would look with the gourad shaded polygons. That's what Mario 64 looked like.
Plus the fact that those models had to be both way up close on the screen and waaay at the back. Snes era models always appeared the same size. Probably couldn't afford time or resources to make every character model in the game fully scalable that way. They game took long enough to develop as it is.
Character models aside, I think ffvii still looks and plays great. The 3d cut scenes have aged a lot better than some games from that era.
Dreamwriter
Member
I don't think the choice of "chibi" models versus "realistic" models in FMV cutscenes had to do with changing standards during development, but how smoothly they wanted the video to connect with gameplay. Arriving on the train was Square's big reveal of their tech for allowing videos and gameplay to seamlessly merge, showing Cloud arriving in video form but then just without transition becoming a playable character. That and, as was said, the more realistic models were often chosen for cutscenes to make sure the emotions got across to the player or to just create an amazing storyline moment.
And are there people who really think FF3 (FFVI) wasn't graphically impressive for its time? Back in those days I was *amazed* at the "photorealism" in FFVI's backgrounds, and by the look of the snow during the intro. I saw stuff like this, and freaked:
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And are there people who really think FF3 (FFVI) wasn't graphically impressive for its time? Back in those days I was *amazed* at the "photorealism" in FFVI's backgrounds, and by the look of the snow during the intro. I saw stuff like this, and freaked:
encephalon
Member
I know things in development aren't necessarily done in a linear matter (compared to how the game progresses) but isn't discrepancy between SD and 'realistic' models a little weird when comparing when they appear? Ex. the 'realistic' models of the highwind scene you posted (Tifa) appearing relatively late in the game compared to Cloud landing on train with the SD model. If they decided it early on, I figure the early game potions would be the more realistic looking ones?
I think instead it was how important the cutscenes were. For example, the party hijacking the Shinra truck and motorcycle use the realistic models, but earlier on a more poverty model is used in a fmv:
Isn't it that they outsourced the "realistic" FMV, whereas Square Japan worked on the in-game low poly model FMV? Pretty sure Parasite Eve was outsourced as well ...
They looked like puppets, which I assumed was the point (easier to animate, easier to "imply" things without having to animate in any great detail). You already see what the characters look like in battle and CG, so seeing them in a semi-abstracted form just makes your imagination do the work.
Never bothered me, in fact I find it charming.
Never bothered me, in fact I find it charming.
TalesOfWin
Banned
people from 2013 complain at 3D models from 1996.
sigh...
sigh...
Maybe? I have no idea to be honest! Did they not have anyone in house who could do it? Most of the insignificant FMVs are just the low poly models and fairly quick so it makes sense they did them themselves if they 'couldn't' handle doing the more realistic ones.
phosphor112
Banned
Fuck. Gonna have to reinstall on my Vita.
Glorified G
Member
Yeah waste of resources I guess. Needed them for those sweet sweet backgrounds ~ ~
The graphics, specifically the backgrounds has aged beautifully
Neff
Member
They aren't bad, but it was Square's first attempt at a fast, functioning engine on PSone, and it's easy to forget how short-lived the early flirtation with Gouraud shading was on the format.
More than anything though, the characters had to be relatively simple to still be recognisable and visible from afar, as many of FFVII's screens were very long 'shots'.
More than anything though, the characters had to be relatively simple to still be recognisable and visible from afar, as many of FFVII's screens were very long 'shots'.
Probably couldn't be arsed to redesign after their N64 tech demo.
They look way better than the ps models
OnimaruXLR
Member
...It is a third person view.
.....And how many movies do you know that have one (and exactly one) static camera angle per scene?
KittenMaster
Member
I think he means over the shoulder camera, which describes most games that aren't FPSes nowadays.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
They didn't though:
What a lot of people are forgetting is that FF7 was evolving rapidly while it was being made.
That's why there's such variety in the model quality.
Note that the SD models appear in some of the CGI fmvs, but in OTHER cutscenes they are realistically proportioned. In other words, the cutscene designers were told to make the characters fit the SD models at one point, but then later on other FMVs were changed to be more realistic.
Cloud landing on train FMV:
OMG spoilers
It's clear the development of FF7's art assets was done by different teams learning the tech at different speeds. So the SD character models were probably decided early on and never changed.
I suppose not all of it; but I distinctly remember CG Barrett with square block hands.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Yeah, they did for some or maybe most of them. I can't remember if Barrett ever had a non blocky cg model.
Maybe in that FMV towards the end if the game.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
A bit off-topic, but I've never seen this image before:
Apparently, they also played around with making Final Fantasy VII isometric without rendered backgrounds. Quite charming.
I want an FF7 demake. Top down, pixel art on crisp, widescreen steroids.
IdreamofHIME
Member
People are saying they did it coz you can't see them from the top view and they're more detailed for FMV and Battles....coz that's no 100% true. These ugly Chibi's were used in cutscenes and FMV's too.
There seemed to be a real tug of war in style choice of FF7 and seeing the direction the series went in after it (except 9), I think Nomura's zealots won.
There seemed to be a real tug of war in style choice of FF7 and seeing the direction the series went in after it (except 9), I think Nomura's zealots won.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Very cool. Close enough for me to enjoy, and I'll pull for it... but I'd really want something pro. I'd even go so far as to have Amano in and Nomura out.
I think some people clearly forget what the PS1 era looked like. It took a few years for PS1 games to have semi-decent 3D models, and even the good ones haven't really aged well. Games like Metal Gear Solid and Vagrant Story were outliers created years into the PS1's lifespan after developers had learned a lot of the tricks to making good-looking 3D games.
Early 3D games looked pretty terrible as a rule. Final Fantasy 7 is far from the worst-looking 3D RPG of its day. Some of the Wild ARMS games, for example, had pretty awful 3D battle graphics.
In my opinion though, I think FF7's graphics have aged better than FF8's. FF8 tried too hard for realism when the technology just wasn't there to support it.
Early 3D games looked pretty terrible as a rule. Final Fantasy 7 is far from the worst-looking 3D RPG of its day. Some of the Wild ARMS games, for example, had pretty awful 3D battle graphics.
In my opinion though, I think FF7's graphics have aged better than FF8's. FF8 tried too hard for realism when the technology just wasn't there to support it.
One factor that many people in this thread seem to forget is that the story sections in FF7 often had many participants. It's not uncommon to have 5 people on screen or more.
Also, the game had no loadings, which was a big deal at the time, especially since this game was in the center of the PS1 vs N64 debates. It would preload the next screen when you walked in an area of the screen. Considering this and how the previous FFs had cute characters in towns, the decision to keep models minimal made sense.
Also, the game had no loadings, which was a big deal at the time, especially since this game was in the center of the PS1 vs N64 debates. It would preload the next screen when you walked in an area of the screen. Considering this and how the previous FFs had cute characters in towns, the decision to keep models minimal made sense.
Post more of the per-rendered back drops please. I know nostalgia plays a hand but the atmosphere is insane in this game, the closest thing I have experienced the last few years has been Catherine and Persona 4.
I guess it may be a very personal thing, as different settings jive with other differently, but those worlds felt so real to me, it's a combination of great aesthetics and a really strong OST aaaaaaaaand writing!
I guess it may be a very personal thing, as different settings jive with other differently, but those worlds felt so real to me, it's a combination of great aesthetics and a really strong OST aaaaaaaaand writing!
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Prerendered nostalgia.
2013, still no HD Wall Market (._. )
Ugh that looks tauntingly good. I want a HD release that keeps those in tact.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Aeriscloud
Banned
Yeah waste of resources I guess. Needed them for those sweet sweet backgrounds ~ ~
I heart you.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
They probably no longer have the high res backgrounds for the PS1 FFs(
Don't say such things!
=(
If someone were to make an RPG in this style but in real time, characters and all (would it even be possible?), I would buy it. There is a richness to the visuals that is almost like a super-crisp oil painting, if you get my drift.
You answered your own question: it wasn't done in a linear fashion.
Note that the blocky models were used in the Cloud subconscious FMV, despite that being an extremely important part.
And the blocky Cloud jumping on train is one of the FIRST fmvs in the game. If it was importance that determined it, an early thing (for reviewers and other short-attention span players) like that would be very important.
You're wrong.
Nomura was doing chibi work originally, i.e. FF6. The realistic vision was Sakaguchi. He wanted FF to turn to a more realistic style; FF7 took place in New York at one point.
Barret is blocky in the escape-from-the-falling-plate FMV, because that's the model on the prerendered background.
He's realistically rendered in at least two fmvs : The motorcycle fmv and the Weapons Awake fmv.
I think people forget that the norm was that there was a map view model and a battle view model and that square had been making
Games that way for a decade. I think ffx was the first game where there wasn't a difference, and since the whole game is over the shoulder, the character model doesn't have to scale as drastically as in ffvii
Games that way for a decade. I think ffx was the first game where there wasn't a difference, and since the whole game is over the shoulder, the character model doesn't have to scale as drastically as in ffvii
Are you kidding me!?
Yeah, square games on the snes were gorgeous, still are.
Unless you mean non-playable fmv then yeah.
In FF X there are models used for cutscenes then there are models used for the map and battles. Sometimes 'cutscenes' that are short use the battle/map model. Notice the face.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
My guess for the "ugly" polygon models used in the maps would be that it made the transition between 2D chibi sprites of the Snes titles and full blow 3D models a lot more smooth and natural.
You need to have some sense of cohesion. Otherwise it would probably be a tad alienating for some.
You need to have some sense of cohesion. Otherwise it would probably be a tad alienating for some.