-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Witcher 3 downgrade arguments in here and nowhere else
- Thread starter Jigolo
- Start date
- Status
If lying produces good games then, I'm okay with this.
As long as gamers keep pre-ordering and buying into pre-release hype, I don't see an end to this end time soon.
icecold1983
Member
ive never seen a case where color and TOD changes cause such a massive disparity. does your explanation change when looking at the 2013 trailers in general compared to retail?
this would also be the first time im aware of where moving to PBR makes all the shading look worse, and IMO far less lifelike.
AstroNut325
Member
FunkyPajamas
Member
Good luck with that (see below)
I'm honestly not affected by this since I learned my lesson with Halo 2 so many years ago. I will never pre-order another game. But it does bother me because these guys went out of their way to not show gameplay running on Ultra settings, always giving bullshit excuses. And now that the game is finally out, lo and behold, same old bs.
At the end of the day though, CDPR are "good" guys. I remember the expansion/patch/rework that they released for The Witcher, for free. I mean, I know these guys will fix most of the issues and they will release good DLC, etc. But it still bothers me that these are the types of practices we see in the industry, even from the "good" guys.
Fact 1: vertical slices are common practice in the industry.
Fact 2: being a game developer and going "oh shit, it doesn't really work" when your fully open world systems do not allow your game to look as good as your smoke and mirrors vertical slice is bullshit of the highest caliber.
edit: to clarify, what I'm saying is that I find it very hard to believe that they were caught by surprise when they moved from a vertical slice to a full game and now suddenly your game doesn't look the same.
jacksepticeye
Member
Do love the way everyone is a moral paladin in the internet, so pure, so sinless
Light my way with ethics please, show me truth
You know I've found it a tad strange we are basing all these arguments on a trailer made two years ago that barely showed any of the game outside of some conceptual gameplay mechanics. Not saying that the project has clearly been downgraded from its initial projection but the trailer was just that, a projection.
Of course it would help if CDPR had outlined what the trailer represented in terms of development but to base all arguments on a very small snippet of what the game could be is nearing the definition of stretching. Again, there has been downgrades, that can't be denied, however the entire argument being based on two year old "footage" that clearly didn't show nor represent the final game isn't exactly what I would call sound.
Of course it would help if CDPR had outlined what the trailer represented in terms of development but to base all arguments on a very small snippet of what the game could be is nearing the definition of stretching. Again, there has been downgrades, that can't be denied, however the entire argument being based on two year old "footage" that clearly didn't show nor represent the final game isn't exactly what I would call sound.
It reminds me of how our hobby is fucked when I see people like you defend bullshit PR, or ridiculing people who demand a more transparent development process...
CecilRousso
Member
I did the same, and how lucky we all would be if this was average graphics.
They'll get you man, those sleazy developers, they gonna get you, watch out!
because is not like they can make a honest mistake when dealing with a project of the magnitud of the TW3
ryanthelion123
Neo Member
Wow, I'm really amazed how some are still sticking up for them. This is one of the worst downgrades we have seen and they are deflecting any responsibility. I cant believe they are still using shots from before the downgrade to promote the game.
Edit: Look at http://thewitcher.com/witcher3/
How is this possible? They are using footage that is miles better than we have today. Isn't this misleading?
Edit: Look at http://thewitcher.com/witcher3/
How is this possible? They are using footage that is miles better than we have today. Isn't this misleading?
evil solrac v3.0
Member
*this would not be acceptable in almost any other industry.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
They could've owned up to it, but instead lied all the way up till release. Honest mistake my ass.
Very interesting Eurogamer article. Quite surprised that they are acknowledging and apologizing for cut backs made. So I guess the forward lit particles stuff is gone for good. I hope they can bring it back with DX 12 as that was hugely impressive.
So I finally reached Velen and have been playing around a lot with ToD by meditating over and over. Here's the best version I could get so far.
So I finally reached Velen and have been playing around a lot with ToD by meditating over and over. Here's the best version I could get so far.
Yoda
Member
They really aren't very good at double talk. Just the other day they had an interview where the dev claimed it was related to sharpening and motion sickness. Now its Direct X 12 and maybe the consoles had a part? The answer constantly changing is worse than had they just plainly said:
"We cannot optimize the current build enough to make it run on consoles without it looking deplorable on consoles or running at sub 720p <insert framerate which causes bad PR here>. Due to consoles making up more of the sales than PC sales we will have to reduce visual IQ across the board to make the game acceptable on consoles."
Honestly goes a lot further than most companies think. I doubt it would have hurt sales. What is certain is the next game they release will be guilty until proven innocent (Ubisoft style) when it comes to believing if what they are presenting is actually what is getting dev'd. It's truly a damn shame too. They are one of very few devs left the PC community viewed as a true AAA PC dev. Being held back by economical tech is one thing, being lied to is another.
ryanthelion123
Neo Member
First of all just cause something is acceptable doesn't mean it is right.
Also, can you give examples of other industries doing this?
It is like seeing a movie commercial with amazing CGI, then seeing that same scene in the theater and the quality is way worse.
I think it's really naive to think they didn't see this coming, and chose to not adress it until they had the game on the shelves and that fat 1.5 million pre-order numbers.
Gamers are really the bottom of the barrel in terms of consumer advocacy, with people defending companies like they were their hometeam, they can do no wrong.
vpance
Member
No interest in a screenshot thread seems to say otherwise.
Wonder how far away they'll be from the target render of Cyberpunk 2077? At this point it's not even if they'll get close to the trailer they showed but whether or not it will look any good. Honestly, besides character models and some of the world geometry, The Witcher 3 looks pretty mediocre to me, the foliage is the worst offender and I hope there's some hero out there working on a mod to replace it.
I can understand that some sacrifices had to be made, but it seems like they just threw away assets that existed at one point in favor of not making the consoles look like complete dog shit in comparison to the PC or something. The fact that they kept on with the whole "Just wait until launch and we'll show you ultra settings, you'll be impressed!" shtick when they knew it would look marginally better than the game on high settings and then immediately backpedaled away from it and are now throwing consoles under the bus (more-or-less) makes it that much more upsetting. I guess it was bound to happen with them working so close with Warner Brothers to get that marketing money, but it's a shame that a company that was such a beacon for how things should be seems to have completely changed their stance within the course of a couple of months.
I can understand that some sacrifices had to be made, but it seems like they just threw away assets that existed at one point in favor of not making the consoles look like complete dog shit in comparison to the PC or something. The fact that they kept on with the whole "Just wait until launch and we'll show you ultra settings, you'll be impressed!" shtick when they knew it would look marginally better than the game on high settings and then immediately backpedaled away from it and are now throwing consoles under the bus (more-or-less) makes it that much more upsetting. I guess it was bound to happen with them working so close with Warner Brothers to get that marketing money, but it's a shame that a company that was such a beacon for how things should be seems to have completely changed their stance within the course of a couple of months.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
*
we were promised a certain level of graphical fidelity. we didn't get it. how hard is this to understand?
if i'm giving 60 bucks to someone I better get what I paid for.
it wasn't an honest mistake, they lied. period.
can you please edit your post so it makes sense?
if you bought an Apple watch today you would get everything that they advertised. *if I went and bought any car I would get what is advertised. food has labels that tell me what it is, how much of it i'm getting, what nutrition, etc. if I buy medicine it tells me what it does, what it is for and any side effects. in the games industry we routinely get bait and switch. constantly. and yet too many consumers accept it.
Gaffercake
Member
"We don't agree there is a downgrade"
Yet in a roundabout way it's the very thing they admit in the article, I spat out my drink when I read this line.
Yep.
It's one thing to offer a vertical slice and claim it is representative of gameplay three years ago.
It's another to KNOW later on that what you released will never be achieved and certain aspects have been cut, yet still go out and lie and even use that early footage as near release marketing material.
It's too late, they've been corrupted by dat console money.
If they had put a response to questions like that out months ago, they wouldn't have gotten the same level of backlash. I appreciate the response but they shouldn't have denied for so long first.
I swear the only demos for open world titles in the past few years that have been representative are inFamous: Second Son and Sunset Overdrive. Guessing because they're on one platform they can more accurately guage what they can do. Open world games have so much more overhead than linear titles and it seems devs don't keep that in mind when making a vertical slice.
I swear the only demos for open world titles in the past few years that have been representative are inFamous: Second Son and Sunset Overdrive. Guessing because they're on one platform they can more accurately guage what they can do. Open world games have so much more overhead than linear titles and it seems devs don't keep that in mind when making a vertical slice.
CecilRousso
Member
It seems like that.
I've been playing the game for a couple of days now on a mix of Ultra/High settings on my GTX970 card, and I think it's definitely close enough to the reveal trailer to be very happy. Can understand if people think they should have handled communication and marketing in a different way, but when it's taken as far as saying that the graphics in the game are average, then I think it's getting quite a bit out of hand.
At this point, this is like ruling of a kingdom made of shit and piss.
I used to get upset with downgrades.. now anytime I see a trailer at E3 or anywhere else that shows "gameplay footage", I basically ignore it.
Nothing you see at E3 this year will look as good as advertised when it ships. Its just a part of the way games are made these days. Yeah its shitty, and it sucks for us.. but its just how it is.
This is another reason why I wish devs wouldnt show anything about their game until they have a confirmed shipping date and the game is complete. It would save them alot of PR trouble.
But.. hype.
Nothing you see at E3 this year will look as good as advertised when it ships. Its just a part of the way games are made these days. Yeah its shitty, and it sucks for us.. but its just how it is.
This is another reason why I wish devs wouldnt show anything about their game until they have a confirmed shipping date and the game is complete. It would save them alot of PR trouble.
But.. hype.
Frostinferno
Member
Would be nice if they at least work on graphical improvements for future PC patches.
Luc1fersBeard
Member
Average? Don't be ridiculous. The game looks great on PC. I'm running with everything on Ultra + Hairworks and HBAO+ and getting between 35-50fps on this setup. Cutscenes are always at 29fps :/
GTX 970
i7 4790
8gb Ram
Wish I could lock the framerate to 40fps just so I didn't have to put up with the random fluctuations. Still I can play it fine like it is thanks to G-sync.
Ophiuchus
Member
TW3 enhanced edition won't solve this downgrade issue.They actually changed the whole rendering engine and mechanics.I doubt that they would achieve the same visual quality with upgrading assets.It is just another promise to keep things cool.But I am still looking forward to some tweaking tools and decent drivers from AMD.
I have the exact same setup and also a G-Sync monitor. Can't wait to dive into the game when I'm back home in 5 weeks.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
To play devil's advocate, how could they possibly know what constituted a realistic vertical slice so early in development?
I think it's fucking terrible that so many vertical slices are the first thing we see and they exceed the quality of the final game. In every case, I wish I didn't have that benchmark to compare the final game to, because often enough the final game isn't bad looking in its own right.
That said, I don't think it's done maliciously or deceptively most of the time. Devs need to set lofty goals for themselves, and when doing that it's simply probability that they will fall short more often than meet or exceed them.
Basically, I just don't believe anything I see anymore and it keeps me from being too bothered. I can't remember the last time (since God of War 3) that a game actually looked better on release than it did 12 months prior.
A comparison using the image I posted above. The biggest hit seems to be to the mountains in the distance. No matter how bright it gets (it never seems to get too bright in that area anymore), the mountains always show up as a silhouette, which is probably because they were not able to light objects so far away. The sky never looks as awesome as the ones in the trailer, but it seems like the general quality of the clouds from what I've seen so far isn't as high resolution as the ones in the trailer. The volumetric smoke from the chimneys has certainly been downgraded, if not removed entirely from some areas. I've seen chimneys emitting smoke every now and then, but they are not nearly the same. Object LoD seems intact. Foliage has certainly changed and gets real blurry at low resolutions, but at high resolutions, it's not as bad as people make it seem. There's much more foliage and variety, in fact, though it suffers from billboard effects more than the original sprites.
My goodness I don't think I have ever seen as many entitled unreasonable cry babies in one thread before.
Game is incredible and looks stunning.
2 year old target footage did look a bit better, get over it and go enjoy the incredible game you have to play.
You are all so hard for by!
Game is incredible and looks stunning.
2 year old target footage did look a bit better, get over it and go enjoy the incredible game you have to play.
You are all so hard for by!
Asking for truth in advertising and deploring a questionable PR strategy is being a crybaby?
That seems to me like CDPR still suffers from a certain level of inexperience when it comes to advertising and presenting its games along with developing them. This is the first truly AAA game the studio has ever made, the second console game it has ever made, and the third game it has ever made period. It's the same reason the combat sucked in the first two games.
Part of the reason people like CDPR so much is because it's quite disconnected from the EAs and Ubisofts of the world and the way they operate, which makes it seem more humble. That's a double-edged sword though, because CDPR's lack of experience in certain matters compared to EA or Ubisoft probably makes it more likely to slip up with things like this -- showing off an open world game before they actually have it running in an open world.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Watch Dogs?
Stiler
Member
One of the things Bethseda does better then most studios, wait long into development until you announced your game and know the core game is actually playable and what it will look like.
More studios need to stop with the vertical slices of a game that is in no way shape or form a full functioning game and labeling it as "in-game," yet and they have 0 idea if it will work or not work.
If they advertised that trialer as "target render" no one would be too upset, they could have simply told the truth as the game got closer to release about it not working as well and having ot change things.
More studios need to stop with the vertical slices of a game that is in no way shape or form a full functioning game and labeling it as "in-game," yet and they have 0 idea if it will work or not work.
If they advertised that trialer as "target render" no one would be too upset, they could have simply told the truth as the game got closer to release about it not working as well and having ot change things.
Anyway, just for the record, I didn't pre-order The Witcher 3, and have actually not purchased it yet (I will when I can afford to). I almost never pre-order games anymore but that's getting into a whole other discussion.
If you want you can bring this into a whole wide issue of pre-orders and the way people show off games before they're released. I remember developers showing off pre-release material that didn't match up with the final game since at least the SNES era. Personally I think the entire industry has an issue with how it schedules and manages game development, shown by how often things get delayed compared to other media industries.
Did the Watch_Dogs issue happen because Ubisoft showed if off before it actually had the open world running?
You know what I'm saying though. This is a studio that shipped its first game eight years ago and just tried to out-do Skyrim on probably less than half Skyrim's budget.
If you want you can bring this into a whole wide issue of pre-orders and the way people show off games before they're released. I remember developers showing off pre-release material that didn't match up with the final game since at least the SNES era. Personally I think the entire industry has an issue with how it schedules and manages game development, shown by how often things get delayed compared to other media industries.
Did the Watch_Dogs issue happen because Ubisoft showed if off before it actually had the open world running?
You know what I'm saying though. This is a studio that shipped its first game eight years ago and just tried to out-do Skyrim on probably less than half Skyrim's budget.
- Status