This doesn't help. TV - limited and Xbox - limited, crushed blacks. TV - full and Xbox - full, crushed blacks.
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Xbox One: Crushed blacks & RGB settings broken?
- Thread starter Foxix Von
- Start date
This doesn't help. TV - limited and Xbox - limited, crushed blacks. TV - full and Xbox - full, crushed blacks.
OK, since a lot of people seem confused with the whole Full / Limited in all possible combinations (and DF really didn't help) and what happens with photoshop, here's an explanation.
Games are rendered using the full RGB scale. Setting your console to output a limited range doesn't change that. It simply changes the output to limited, which means that the scale is "compressed".
When you have a proper screenshot, its scale is full rgb. You can easily check that with histograms on photoshop: it covers the whole range.
Changing the settings of the "input" to 16-235 with photoshop is exactly the same as what a TV in Limited mode does when it gets a Full signal. Everything below 16 and over 235 is clipped. Anything 0-15 (which was black to some dark grey) is considered as 16 i.e blackest black. Hence the "crushed blacks". Similarly, anything 236-255 is now pure white.
The correct way to emulate what happens with a Limited source to Full input with photoshop is to convert the screenshot to a Limited range i.e change the "output" to 16-235 (which is what happens when you set your console to Limited). The screen will look washed out, because your monitor has a full RGB scale. This is where DF's defense for the BF4 fuck up makes no sense. If the console's Full RGB output was bugged like they said (it actually output Limited) then this what would have happened with their screens.
From this converted screen, if you now set the "input" to a limited range (16-235) you'll go back to pretty much the same as the original screenshot. This is what happens when both the consoles and TV are set to Limited.
So this is where the confusion over photoshop comes from. "Input" and "output" can't actually be considered as "my console" and "my TV" respectively, as one would assume.
Anyway here's an example:
1- Full -> Full. Looks fine.
2- Full -> Limited. Crushed blacks & whites. A mix of can't see shit captain (e.g the gun or some details on the Helghast on the left) and my eyes are burning (stuff that is "too bright" e.g that yellow/white thing on the Helghast on the left).
3- Limited -> Full. Washed out. Shadows are lost.
4- Limited -> Limited. Looks fine and pretty much identical to 1.
Games are rendered using the full RGB scale. Setting your console to output a limited range doesn't change that. It simply changes the output to limited, which means that the scale is "compressed".
When you have a proper screenshot, its scale is full rgb. You can easily check that with histograms on photoshop: it covers the whole range.
Changing the settings of the "input" to 16-235 with photoshop is exactly the same as what a TV in Limited mode does when it gets a Full signal. Everything below 16 and over 235 is clipped. Anything 0-15 (which was black to some dark grey) is considered as 16 i.e blackest black. Hence the "crushed blacks". Similarly, anything 236-255 is now pure white.
The correct way to emulate what happens with a Limited source to Full input with photoshop is to convert the screenshot to a Limited range i.e change the "output" to 16-235 (which is what happens when you set your console to Limited). The screen will look washed out, because your monitor has a full RGB scale. This is where DF's defense for the BF4 fuck up makes no sense. If the console's Full RGB output was bugged like they said (it actually output Limited) then this what would have happened with their screens.
From this converted screen, if you now set the "input" to a limited range (16-235) you'll go back to pretty much the same as the original screenshot. This is what happens when both the consoles and TV are set to Limited.
So this is where the confusion over photoshop comes from. "Input" and "output" can't actually be considered as "my console" and "my TV" respectively, as one would assume.
Anyway here's an example:
1- Full -> Full. Looks fine.
2- Full -> Limited. Crushed blacks & whites. A mix of can't see shit captain (e.g the gun or some details on the Helghast on the left) and my eyes are burning (stuff that is "too bright" e.g that yellow/white thing on the Helghast on the left).
3- Limited -> Full. Washed out. Shadows are lost.
4- Limited -> Limited. Looks fine and pretty much identical to 1.
Yes, if your monitor takes Full RGB just fine, the console should be set to Full as well. But it seems there's a problem with several XB1 games and I've got no idea where it comes from. It's almost like the RGB scale is shifted or something.
Thanks
Yeah well, I used to have a Drake/Snake animated avatar and when GIFs were banned I couldn't be arsed to look for a new one. Yeah yeah, I know, that was years ago
a Master Ninja
Member
Wow, that's probably the best, clearest example of the problem. Somebody needs to send this Major Nelson's way (I have no idea who is running things for Xbox anymore).Another test, and this has an obvious difference:
Limited RGB:
Full RGB:
Look at the crushed blacks in the background.D=
Yeah I'm glad I went to do this mode for this comparison because the difference is big. Guess I have to use Limited RGB.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
I don't have any crushed black problem. I hated the PWL Gamma the Xbox 360 used to crush blacks. But the Xbox One looks phenomenal in that regard when set to PC RGB Full.
I am using a BenQ VW2230H AMVA PC Monitor. I have the Xbox One and the Monitor both set to RGB Full and do not have any black crush. I was nervous before getting the Xbox One because I hate black crush and with Battlefield 4 I just left the brightness at the default 50% because it looked perfect.
I am using a BenQ VW2230H AMVA PC Monitor. I have the Xbox One and the Monitor both set to RGB Full and do not have any black crush. I was nervous before getting the Xbox One because I hate black crush and with Battlefield 4 I just left the brightness at the default 50% because it looked perfect.
Another test, and this has an obvious difference:
Limited RGB:
Full RGB:
Look at the crushed blacks in the background.D=
Even the limited one seems to be crushing them, except less.
This doesn't seem a problem, it seems intentional on MS side.
This needs to be known
Terbinator
Member
Bingo. I did this last night whilst messing around and the calibration is too dark to see anything and too light for the following tests. You can also see the difference right off the bat in the settings menu as the background goes from grey to pitch black when you go limited -> full.
My monitor is a Dell U2711 which is 8bit (10bit with emulation) and has both an XV colour mode and RGB. Trying XV colour mode was a complete nightmare with the X1. ARGB was, for whatever reason, better.
OverHeat
« generous god »
Nice little setting I found in my tv yesterday ( Pioneer 5020FD) If I put my xbox on full RGB and I leave the HDMI color space to auto I get black crush but if I manually set it to color 4 (RGB 0-255) no more black crush, I want to to know if there is a quality difference between limited and full since I can use both?
Terbinator
Member
In an ideal scenario 'full' would be better as it nets you the whole range.
If you look at my example above, limited<>limited is pretty much identical to full<>full, visually. It's extremely hard to see any difference.
In reality there is one.
When you set your console to limited, the output RGB scale gets compressed (and not clipped) from the rendered full range.
There are however 36 less RGB values (16-235 vs 0-255). Unlike clipping, that loss in range is spread evenly across the resulting RGB range (every 7th or 8th RGB value), which are merged with a nearest neighbour. What should have been two (extremely close) colors become effectively one.
So, to illustrate this (read my post above for the explanations as to what happens and how can you reproduce that with photoshop).
The following indicate the Console<>TV settings:
1- Full <> Full (good)
2- Full <> Limited (crushed B&W)
3- Limited <> Full (washed out)
4- Limited <> Limited (good)
Two things you notice from the histograms (just focus on the composite RGB, other ones just show the same stuff).
In (2) it looks like the intensity of everything is much lower compared to (1). It actually isn't, it's just because the extreme values (pure black and pure white - if you look closely you're see 2 very high peaks at both extremes) now have a much higher intensity than the rest (thus blow up the y-axis scale) because they're essentially the addition of anything 0-16 (black - dark grey from the Full range) merged into 16 (black). That's what crushed blacks means. Same goes for whites.
(3) is the result of converting a full RGB screen into a limited one (nothing below 16 and above 235) but nothing was clipped - the 256 values got compressed into 220. This results in the merging of some values as I've mentioned, which you can see in the histogram as some peaks sticking out at regular intervals. Overall the image looks washed out, but this is fixed when your TV is set to limited too.
Which is (4). If you compare to (1) it's really hard to notice a difference, and the histograms can be pretty much overlayed 1:1, but compared to (1), there are still peaks sticking out. That info was lost during the full -> conversion process and can't be retrieved.
So overall, using Limited<>Limited, the overall quality of the image is preserved (interms of shadows etc) but you're actually losing a bit of colour resolution. So if you can, always use Full <> Full.
Domcorleone
Member
How do you know if your tv does RGB full? I have a Sony HX950
Check the doc, or it should be in the picture options somewhere.
I havent read the whole thread yet but just wanted to quickly add that on my Samsung plasma (PN64F8500) I was not able to see all black bars in the XBO calibration tests until I changed my TV from "Standard" to "Cal Day". Cal Day is a calibration mode not all sets have so i would try Movie. Once i calibrated the main settings to in this mode i was able to see every gradation of black in the test patterns. It could be the way the XBO is interacting with the various gamma curves on the TV in the different modes thats causing the crushed blacks.
EDIT: I was always able to see the below black information (the closed eye on the calibration test) by using Limited RGB and HIGH black levels on the samsung, but i still wasn't able to see differentiation between between all the black bars until i stopped using "standard"
EDIT: I was always able to see the below black information (the closed eye on the calibration test) by using Limited RGB and HIGH black levels on the samsung, but i still wasn't able to see differentiation between between all the black bars until i stopped using "standard"
Dat lovely sharpening.
Anyway, here's a mask based on your pics. Limited (top) vs Full (bottom).
I've selected all the pixels with a value of pure black on a full scale (0,0,0).
Seriously, it looks like Limited is actually Full already, and Full is...I dunno. Like -20, 235 or something.
Anyway, here's a mask based on your pics. Limited (top) vs Full (bottom).
I've selected all the pixels with a value of pure black on a full scale (0,0,0).
Seriously, it looks like Limited is actually Full already, and Full is...I dunno. Like -20, 235 or something.
John Caboose
Member
Dat lovely sharpening.
Anyway, here's a mask based on your pics. Limited (top) vs Full (bottom).
I've selected all the pixels with a value of pure black on a full scale (0,0,0).
Seriously, it looks like Limited is actually Full already, and Full is...I dunno. Like -20, 235 or something.
Maybe that's why the only decent way to view Xbox One (for me) is Limited Output and Full Input. Nice find.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-next-gen-face-off
"Owners of Microsoft's new console aren't treated to the same level of quality in this area. 720p - also featuring the same post-process anti-aliasing - is confirmed, which is then upscaled to 1080p by the console before arriving on your TV screen. On top of that, a strong sharpening filter is also applied over the entire 720p image, encompassing both in-game imagery along with the HUD elements and even the main menu screens. Based on the fact that we're seeing something very similar in Killer Instinct and Dead Rising 3, we have a feeling that this may actually be part of the Microsoft upscaling solution - and we don't like it.
The end result isn't a particularly pretty sight: harsh edges are further accentuated over the additional jaggies created by the upscaling, while fine details, foliage, and the surface of water all appear quite grainy in comparison to the PS4 and PC versions. It's a crushing step down from the PS4's much clearer 1080p presentation, taking away some of the finesse expected from a next-generation product, but thankfully it's also something that you can opt out of.
While there's nothing you can do to increase the native resolution of the Xbox One game, it is possible to disable the sharpening filter by switching the console's output resolution to 720p. With that in mind it's rather baffling as to why Microsoft would choose to bork image quality in such a way by default, especially considering that we actually see more detail resolved when the unmolested 720p output is upscaled by our display - though your screen may (or may not) add a frame or two of processing lag to carry out its own upscaling calculation. Perhaps the team behind the Xbox One hardware thought that the sharpened look might help to hide the deficit in resolution, but in truth it does more harm than good."
Glad I'm not the only one experiencing this with DR3 and KI.
"Owners of Microsoft's new console aren't treated to the same level of quality in this area. 720p - also featuring the same post-process anti-aliasing - is confirmed, which is then upscaled to 1080p by the console before arriving on your TV screen. On top of that, a strong sharpening filter is also applied over the entire 720p image, encompassing both in-game imagery along with the HUD elements and even the main menu screens. Based on the fact that we're seeing something very similar in Killer Instinct and Dead Rising 3, we have a feeling that this may actually be part of the Microsoft upscaling solution - and we don't like it.
The end result isn't a particularly pretty sight: harsh edges are further accentuated over the additional jaggies created by the upscaling, while fine details, foliage, and the surface of water all appear quite grainy in comparison to the PS4 and PC versions. It's a crushing step down from the PS4's much clearer 1080p presentation, taking away some of the finesse expected from a next-generation product, but thankfully it's also something that you can opt out of.
While there's nothing you can do to increase the native resolution of the Xbox One game, it is possible to disable the sharpening filter by switching the console's output resolution to 720p. With that in mind it's rather baffling as to why Microsoft would choose to bork image quality in such a way by default, especially considering that we actually see more detail resolved when the unmolested 720p output is upscaled by our display - though your screen may (or may not) add a frame or two of processing lag to carry out its own upscaling calculation. Perhaps the team behind the Xbox One hardware thought that the sharpened look might help to hide the deficit in resolution, but in truth it does more harm than good."
Glad I'm not the only one experiencing this with DR3 and KI.
Wishmaster92
Member
So i tested full vs limited with Ryse and i didn't notice much difference except that full seemed a little brighter compared to limited. But upon further investigation this is what i found:
I did a test yesterday comparing rgb limited vs full but not with any games. I have an avs 709 hd calibration disc i used for the comparison. First thing i noticed is that when setting the console and tv to rgb full with this pattern:
It clips anything below lines 18, which is an error as 17 should be shown. It doesn't matter if i set the tv brightness to 100, any line below 18 is crushed.
Now setting the console and tv to rgb limited fixes this. I can now see line 17 and above, and if i keep increasing the brightness it shows lines all the way to 6 iirc, it doesn't clip at 16 which is reference black, so that's good.
I guess the best option if you want to play 1080p native games, or like Ryse which bypass the hardware scaler....(hmmm guess Crytek noticed it was pure shit) is to set the console to rgb limited to make sure you are getting the correct values. For games that are 720p and use the hardware scaler i guess we are screwed until Microsoft decides to fix this.
How on earth Microsoft managed to include a calibration tool and not get the sharpen/crushed black/ faulty rgb-full mode fixed is beyond me. The ps4 doesn't have any of these problems. This needs to be fixed ASAP.
I did a test yesterday comparing rgb limited vs full but not with any games. I have an avs 709 hd calibration disc i used for the comparison. First thing i noticed is that when setting the console and tv to rgb full with this pattern:
It clips anything below lines 18, which is an error as 17 should be shown. It doesn't matter if i set the tv brightness to 100, any line below 18 is crushed.
Now setting the console and tv to rgb limited fixes this. I can now see line 17 and above, and if i keep increasing the brightness it shows lines all the way to 6 iirc, it doesn't clip at 16 which is reference black, so that's good.
I guess the best option if you want to play 1080p native games, or like Ryse which bypass the hardware scaler....(hmmm guess Crytek noticed it was pure shit) is to set the console to rgb limited to make sure you are getting the correct values. For games that are 720p and use the hardware scaler i guess we are screwed until Microsoft decides to fix this.
How on earth Microsoft managed to include a calibration tool and not get the sharpen/crushed black/ faulty rgb-full mode fixed is beyond me. The ps4 doesn't have any of these problems. This needs to be fixed ASAP.
Wow ive been playing with the Xbox 360 and it also has a Full RGB mode, so i thought i would try it. But it was washed out because my Pioneer 4280XD couldnt detect the output as Full RGB. So i had to manually select the Full RGB colour option in the menu to get it to look right. On PS3 it does this automatically, as it does on my HTPC. I thought the Xbox One would atleast get that right being a HDMI compliant device from conception. For a media box it hasnt even got the basics right.
I run all my devices through my Yamaha Receiver which has a HDMI switcher built in, so like some people who setup up each TV Input for device specific settings, I cannot as everything runs on Input 1 on my TV and the Receiver switches the HDMI to which device I want to use. So its imperative that Auto Detect settings work with HDMI. Another negative for a box thats media centric, sad that it does a lot, just nothing very well.
This is meant for calibrating your TV for movies, which is why the reference black is 16 - movies are encoded with limited range. It's normal that setting your console and TV to Full would mess it up.
I'd double check if I were you, because many receivers clip the signal.
Wishmaster92
Member
I thought avs had some full rgb below black patterns. Also, why does rgb limited goes way below 16 if you turn brightness all the way up? It never does this on my blu-ray player.
It shouldn't. Which is why, as I've said previously, I think the range is fucked up to the point of being shifted towards black. Which is why many people report it to look fine with the console set to limited and the TV/card set to full.
Wishmaster92
Member
Which game did you test, and did you set it to rgb limited or full? Yes DVI only carries video signal, if you want sound you have to use the optical port.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
So until MS figures this out...right now, as far as my PS4 is concerned, I should set it to full while setting my BenQ monitor to full output as well?
Killer Instinct full rgb 36bits p/ pixel 1080p
If not perfect, better than limited and not as crushed as full rgb on hdmi mode
SEGAvangelist
Member
This seems to be the only game that does this. I've tested DR3, BF4 and CoD and those games actually don't crush the blacks like KI does (comparing small window to fullscreen). DR3 just has a default gamma setting that is way too low. CoD may as well, but I don't know what the default level is. All of the games mentioned have the nasty sharpening filter, though, so I believe crushed blacks are isolated to KI and not the scaler. Note that all this was tested at limited range. Full range is broken at this point for me as my TV won't auto switch to the right brightness levels like it does with all other devices (not including Xbox 360).
Ive been using the same test pattern as mentioned above, and I can see down to 17 and barely 16, which i think is correct?
My Receiver is Yamaha RX A1010, cant find if it does or doesnt support Full RGB.
The easiest way to be absolutely sure is to use a calibration pattern with the whole RGB range and try direct connection or via your receiver and compare.
If you saw all the was down to 16/17, that means it's a limited range, not a full one.
You generally want to have the whole range unclipped and calibrate manually for 16 as reference black.
It can work if it's clipped but you make sure you are getting every information possible on your screen
VE3TRO
Formerly Gizmowned
I've done it and it's not only crushing blacks and brightening whites but it seems to apply some anti-aliasing or some type of thing.
So these pictures were captured from 1080p source at 24 bits per pixel at TV (RGB Limited). I have done no editing to them just opening the original files then re-saving as PNG.
The pictures on the left are the screens from when we play in-game with the 1080p scaler in effect. The pictures on the right are exactly the same frame but when going back to or from the dash so no scaler is being used.
When you hit the dash button before it returns you home a few duplicate frames are displayed and some of there remove the "1080p upscaler filter" leaving you what I imagine the game would look like without the scaler.
If you look at the Sabrewulf opening shot at the background in the level you can see quite a lot of smoothness on the wooden beams but its crushed black.
But on the exact shot without the scaler working we can see quite alot of aliasing yet we can see a better color and detail.
Yes, but he was saying he's unsure if his receiver passes full rgb through or not. Hence my advice to test that easily.
John Caboose
Member
To know that we could, by the mercy of Microsoft, so easily have the picture without the scaler-bullshit applied to it makes me sad.
It looks like some form of FXAA. Real AA is not being applied, as the step count on all edges is identical.
Compare his headband in these two images:
http://i1.minus.com/ibbly73f7uecIZ.png
http://i6.minus.com/ibjlCoWX6gxGXY.png
Stairs are identical. It's hard to see on some other edges, but it you look closely, you can see that the stair count across the entire image remains unchanged.
If I weren't at work I'd fire up an image editor and point out some of the more obvious spots.
Jin
Member
Got my Xbox One yesterday and was pulling my hair our using their calibration test. So, if I'm reading this thread right, the RGB full in X1 is broken? My TV is a Sony XBR4 and it has the option to set HDMI to full or limited. Right now should I set both TV and console to limited or TV to full and X1 to limited? Because with full - > full I get crushed blacks.
John Caboose
Member
I am using Limited -> Full while awaiting a fix
which will probably never come. The thread on /r/xboxone telling everyone to switch to full "because the image becomes so much better" proves that crushed blacks are somehow appealing to the masses.
Yep, use Limited.
Gillian Seed
Banned
So turning the console to 720p changes nothing?
Doesn't seem like it from what I tried with KI.
Just stumbled over this thread looking for Xbox One related information, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents to the discussion. The crushed blacks you guys see in KI seem to be an artistic choice of the game developer. The differences Gizmowned observed between the game and the dashboard version are most likely because the game disables many of the post-processing effects when minimized to the dashboard to free up resources from the device to do other things.
Part of those post-processing effects are bloom ("the brightening whites"), anti-aliasing filters (responsible for smoother edges) and the LUT (look up table) which is responsible for the crushed blacks and the overall look of the image. The reason I suspect that this is an artistic choice is because I am working for a company providing color grading for games, commercials and feature films and I work with colorists who sometimes crush blacks on purpose in order to go for a specific, more stylized, look.
Part of those post-processing effects are bloom ("the brightening whites"), anti-aliasing filters (responsible for smoother edges) and the LUT (look up table) which is responsible for the crushed blacks and the overall look of the image. The reason I suspect that this is an artistic choice is because I am working for a company providing color grading for games, commercials and feature films and I work with colorists who sometimes crush blacks on purpose in order to go for a specific, more stylized, look.