-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
Bomber Bob
Banned
Not cool Bungie.
Just make 2 different difficulties (like WoW LFR & Heroic) so everybody wins.
Just make 2 different difficulties (like WoW LFR & Heroic) so everybody wins.
Ramocalypse
Member
IMO, this decision is going to kill Raids in Destiny. There is no way they are going to justify development cost for what will effectively be played by 5% of the population (if that) because of the difficult barrier of entry. There has to be a better solution, actually how about this...
What if when you go to orbit with your fire team, say you have 3 of your friends with you. You need 2 people.
Begin the matchmaking process.
Instead of automatically putting people on your team, you are presented with a list of other fireteams(or individuals) that are actively looking to raid from the same queue.
Team one looks over team two's gear and stats, decides they are good to go, and send an invite to join teams.
Team two recieves the invitation and has an opp to look over team ones gear and stats, and either accepts the join or decline.
This would present a more efficient and even thorough way of finding players, then say posting on various forums trying to fill those last two slots in your fireteam.. whaddya think?
What if when you go to orbit with your fire team, say you have 3 of your friends with you. You need 2 people.
Begin the matchmaking process.
Instead of automatically putting people on your team, you are presented with a list of other fireteams(or individuals) that are actively looking to raid from the same queue.
Team one looks over team two's gear and stats, decides they are good to go, and send an invite to join teams.
Team two recieves the invitation and has an opp to look over team ones gear and stats, and either accepts the join or decline.
This would present a more efficient and even thorough way of finding players, then say posting on various forums trying to fill those last two slots in your fireteam.. whaddya think?
Jackbooted
Member
There already is a matchmaking system in place for strikes and pvp. I guess the question becomes, is it a radical change to alter the system to check basic player gear/loadout to test for raid group matching?
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I'm betting they could have a day 1 patch if not or just have open communication in the Tower and let randoms team up that way.
It is obviously really close to the deadline now but they already have 6 person matchmaking happening for Crucible. Assuming things are laid out such that any playlist/mission hopper can be turned on for Matchmaking it could probably be done.
Though if they just use the current existing system wouldn't have a lot of the group management options that using it for raids would require (ie booting players by a leader or vote, finding replacements for drops, etc). I actually suspect that this stuff not existing is a not insignificant reason for this decision.
Does it matter? Tons of studios make crazy huge Day One patches to fix what they didn't finish before gold. And Titanfall shipped before finishing/adding a TON of features. If Raids are so hard, no one is going to be doing one anytime soon unless they did nothing but play the game for a week.
The question is more so, will Bungie bother to add matchmaking?
Agreed 100%. Chances are in the long term people playing the game will be pretty skilled. Probably more skilled than the chump..err..friends.. you can scrounge up together to play at the same time.
I don't buy this argument that people will fail and complain to Bungie that it's too difficult. People are complaining now because they will have a difficult time to play the mode at all. That's worse. Better to try and fail than to not even be able to try at all.
I was ready to jump in and pre-ordered the Guardian edition because I really had a great time with the Alpha and Beta but this news sours my enthusiasm more than anything. It locks content out for me for no great reason.
th4tguy
Member
This^
There is no easy way to communicate with non friends in the game that you are looking for a group or looking for more to fill the group. At least in MMOs, you can type in general chat or LFG channel to find people to do a raid with. There will need to be a lot of back and forth between forums or chat groups that aren't in the game to achieve anything similar and anything that takes you out of the game is a bad thing from a design perspective.
I don't really mind, as I wasn't intending on doing the Raid with randoms anyway and I think relying on matchmaking for the Raid might create very frustrating scenarios, but I wouldn't be against giving people the option.
If matchmaking would be in, I would prefer that option to be turned off by default with a pop-up in the vein of the following for turning it on;
If matchmaking would be in, I would prefer that option to be turned off by default with a pop-up in the vein of the following for turning it on;
"You just entered matchmaking for the Raid. This means that you will be playing together with randomly chosen other players who may or may not use headsets or speak your language. Due to the difficulty of the Raid and the challenges that lie within it, this might lead to a frustrating experience. For the best experience, we recommend that you form a Fireteam of 6 with other players before attempting this Raid.
X - I understand // O - Cancel"
X - I understand // O - Cancel"
Pai Pai Master
Banned
They did this in FFXIV and it wasn't a popular decision. The latest turns of The Binding Coil of Bahamut (the advanced 8-man raid) are still locked to pre-set parties only, but they made it so the older turns get added to general matchmaking once the new ones are out.
I'd be cool with something like that. But will probably end up going to Destiny-GAF for my raid members.
I'd be cool with something like that. But will probably end up going to Destiny-GAF for my raid members.
That'd be an acceptable solution for me.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Probably a bad move.
In my experience, MMOs that launch without feature inevitably end up adding it anyway down the line as players start leaving in troves.
In my experience, MMOs that launch without feature inevitably end up adding it anyway down the line as players start leaving in troves.
Ramocalypse
Member
Yeah I like this idea too.
The Elite
BOSS
I think a lot of people picking this up aren't even approaching this as your average MMO since it looks more like a Halo style shooter. They're going to want a matchmaking option for something like this since that's what the standard is these days for console shooters.
I certainly hope the raids aren't as big of an insane difficulty gulf as they seem to be suggesting they are. It'd be pretty bad if all the Level 20 Strikes and whatnot let everyone just blunder through shootbanging everything and not using teamwork at all and then the raid suddenly requires clockwork precision from every team member. The stuff you do to qualify for taking on the raid should prepare you for some degree of the challenge presented within, not just in terms of gear but in terms of challenge and expectations.
So this is "great news", is it Gaf? What about your average casual gamer who has a modest friend list and isn't a member of a gaming community like Gaf?
In fact, seeing as this is "great news", can I assume that when it comes to PvP, you all exclusively play in private lobbies with friends and don't utilise matchmaking at all?
Speaking from experience, a lot of the people I have on my Xbox and PSN friends lists are people who I have met via matchmaking in games over the years.
I'm honestly at the stage where it seems that everything to do with Destiny is seen as "great news" here on Gaf. I don't understand it.
In fact, seeing as this is "great news", can I assume that when it comes to PvP, you all exclusively play in private lobbies with friends and don't utilise matchmaking at all?
Speaking from experience, a lot of the people I have on my Xbox and PSN friends lists are people who I have met via matchmaking in games over the years.
I'm honestly at the stage where it seems that everything to do with Destiny is seen as "great news" here on Gaf. I don't understand it.
Not necessarily. It just means you'd start Sunday and finish Friday+Saturday.
What could they possibly throw at you ? There a no tanks, no healer, no mana,. So no dead tanks, oom healers and things like that.
I think everything will evolve around movement in raids. Standing together, hiding, jumping platforms, pushing switches,.
Of course there are the typicall waves of enemies, so some people need to switch to the adds, some stay on the boss.
Average casual gamers probably won't have much luck completing raids... if MMO raids are anything to go by.
MADGAME
Member
Nice. Treat it like a pharmaceutical side-effect commercial. "Games made with matchmaking can result in bouts of rage, broken controllers or tv, shattered dreams, bloody stool and cry-punching your pillow. Ask your doctor or therapist if Raid matchmaking is right for you"
Confidence Man
Member
They ought to prevent you from playing with friends you've had for less than a week while they're at it. You don't want people playing with randoms scrounged up from the tower five minutes ago ruining the sanctity of the precious raid experience.
WoW does this just fine. Anyone who joins a raid in progress gets their weekly progress saved to that raid. Simple.
i bet there will be insane enrage timers you cant just make in time without the right gear.
Playing with "randoms" on a "hard" raid is not the problem here.
The problem is being forced to do manual matchmaking, because the game lacks basic interaction features. Even if you're in a clan, you need to organize your party outside of the game. This is a serious problem, mainly because raid is - apparently - the pinnacle of PVE, and a lot of people (who paid for this content, by the way) won't be able to even try it.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
The problem is being forced to do manual matchmaking, because the game lacks basic interaction features. Even if you're in a clan, you need to organize your party outside of the game. This is a serious problem, mainly because raid is - apparently - the pinnacle of PVE, and a lot of people (who paid for this content, by the way) won't be able to even try it.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Jest Chillin
Member
It's a comedic video that exaggerates the problems that occur in a Raid when people don't know the strat, don't listen to Raid Leaders, and just play however they want. Which happens often when you're grouped with randoms. In other types of content, people can do that and it may work out. It absolutely will not if this Raid requires the amount of coordination Bungie claims it does.
Every single PUG run had players that actually listened to the advice given by other players? You had one hell of a lucky time in your MMOs. In my experience that's a rarity. Far more often you have players that want to do it their way rather than listen to someone they don't know and won't ever play with again.
Typically Devs set Resets somewhere in the middle of the work week. It's not likely to be too bad for most people.
Maybe it's just me but this comes across like, "I don't know how much you know about Japanese Culture (I'm an expert)...."
So matchmaking dating-website style? Realistically.. all people have to do is add friends to their PSN/XBL friend list as they play with people through the earlier game. There's plenty of content that you'll have to spend a lot of time playing well before you get to Raids that uses matchmaking. Play with couple people in a Strike and like them? Send them a friend request. Have some good Crucible matches with a strong player or two? Toss them a request as well.
This really wouldn't be a problem if people weren't so anti-social. Because as much as everyone is complaining about the lack of social features in Destiny.... nobody seems willing enough to actually take the effort to get to know new people to play with. Everyone just wants matchmaking to automatically group them with disposable players who can just fill the slots.
The bold makes absolutely no sense.
As for not buying the argument that people will complain about the difficulty. You don't have to buy it. It's already happened in a ton of games before and it continues to happen. In general, people will blame others before they blame themselves. So they'll complain that the others in their matchmade Fireteam were bad/unprepared/made a mistake or they'll blame the encounter design before they would even think about admitting that maybe they weren't ready for it yet. Or maybe they made the mistake. This will lead to complaints and when people have complaints, they tend to voice them loudly and often. People that have no complaints don't tend to voice their opinion nearly as much and leaves an echo chamber of negativity which then forces the Devs to make changes that they never intended to make. That can ruin the game even more.
The Elite
BOSS
You can probably form a group manually using messaging or some in game utility but for the most part, I feel the same way as you. I'm going to missing out on content because I don't have a regular group of people that I play with and I don't have the ability to carve out specific times each week to play.
When I get a few hours free I don't want to have to spend the first hour or two trying to get a bunch of people on GAF together for a Raid. I'd rather just jump in. If someone drops, let matchmaking fill the position with someone of equal quality. I've seen it done in FFXIV. Now, it's better to have a static group, no doubt, but the option is there.
Yes, thank you! I wouldn't have nearly the same problem with no matchmaking for raids if the game even had basic features to form groups with your clan. How about a simple LFG panel that lists everyone in your clan/group and what they want to play? I don't want to have to come to GAF to set that shit up.
This has been explained to him numerous times. He just simply cannot make the connection because "the video is fake" therefore whatever point it is trying to make should be ignored. I've tried man... he just doesn't get it.
Static Jak
Member
I could be way off but I don't see how it can match the same difficulty in terms of strategy and planning as a classic MMORPG Raid.
When you think of all the options, classes and so on involved in an MMORPG and compare that to building a class in Destiny, and Destiny seems a lot more shallow. From that side of things anyway. At the very least it makes it very difficult to accuaratly compare Destiny Raids and MMORPG Raids as of right now.
This. I am one of those with only 30 or so on my friends list. I have a total of 1 other friend that intends to get Destiny so that means I will
not see this content. This only confirms my decision to wait for an inevitable sale over the holidays or even next year.
From what I remember in my MMO days after the first couple months of people having access to the content the vast majority of people running the instances would know what to do. If someone didn't know the leader would usually happily explain to them. The knowledge actually permeated through the community in a natural way both through outside the game wikis and inside the game PUG knowledge sharing. Accepted and proven strats for most encounters became the norm. People didn't try to rock the boat because they'd rather just get the instance done and didn't want to get risk getting booted from a random PUG.
It's... Not? Raids are one mode. The game has other things to do.
People pugged raids in WoW at least as far back as Vanilla (way before LFR) and people pugged the non-duty-finder turns in FFXIV. Both were successful.
But perhaps it's impossible in Destiny because of strict timing (like the example someone gave before of standing on platforms at exactly the same time or something). Then the complaint should be that Bungie has failed to provide the community in game tools to deal with the content that they're creating.
If Mr. Scarab Lord is too hardcore and wants Destiny raids to just be for the Scarab Lords of the world, then at the very least add proper communication tools into the game.
But perhaps it's impossible in Destiny because of strict timing (like the example someone gave before of standing on platforms at exactly the same time or something). Then the complaint should be that Bungie has failed to provide the community in game tools to deal with the content that they're creating.
If Mr. Scarab Lord is too hardcore and wants Destiny raids to just be for the Scarab Lords of the world, then at the very least add proper communication tools into the game.
Welp.
This is bad for me. I don't really have the time and certainly can't plan when I'll have enough free time to play.
This was gonna be more of a "Oh hey, my wife went out with her friend tonight. I've got 4 hours, let's do this thing" not a "Next Wed, I will block off 4 hours to RAID"
The one area per planet was annoying. This might be a deal-breaker for me for the purchase of the game because it basically locks more casual players out of the end-game.
This is bad for me. I don't really have the time and certainly can't plan when I'll have enough free time to play.
This was gonna be more of a "Oh hey, my wife went out with her friend tonight. I've got 4 hours, let's do this thing" not a "Next Wed, I will block off 4 hours to RAID"
The one area per planet was annoying. This might be a deal-breaker for me for the purchase of the game because it basically locks more casual players out of the end-game.
Trickster
Member
You say it cuts it down to 2 night instead of 3, but I don't see how? You would just start the raid Sunday, after the reset. And then come Friday and Saturday, you would just pick back up where you left off. It's still 3 days
Jest Chillin
Member
This was true years ago but hasn't been how it's worked in awhile. Currently, knowledge about Raids is learned through watching Youtube vids, not through players passing the knowledge to each other directly and strats are rarely used for anything lower than that. What tends to happen is the players who actually do figure out the strats and complete the content for things like Dungeons, end up getting the gear that makes the dungeons easier. Then when they play those dungeons with randoms (because most games have some kind of Daily system to keep those dungeons populated) their gear and experience allows them to carry the players who don't have the gear yet. That allows the randoms to get geared. Once most people have gotten the gears for those encounters, they're stronger than the encounter and the strats largely go out of the window and people just brute force their way through repeats of the content.
There are also Nightfall Missions that are a higher difficulty level than Strikes and also reward the player with extremely good gear. Raiding is not an absolute necessity.
Oh, right. So in that case, they might as well completely alienate those users right?
I would think this will evolve over time. There are many gamers out there who aren't going to go through the steps to create friends just to do a raid...there should be some form of matchmaking of players to do a raid in my opinion. Otherwise, the content gets missed-out on.
Might as well dumb down the difficulty. That'd be helpful, right? /sarcasm
Seriously though, I will be very upset if Bungie caves in and dumbs down raids difficulty because some people found it too hard for them.