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Speculation: Nintendo's Next handheld

The wiiU is a beast at performance per watt and given a few years to optimize it further (perhaps a die shrink?) it could reach handheld levels of power draw. Given that an average blu-ray drive consumes 25 watts of power if you were to make a handheld that cut out the wiiU's drive, usb ports, and unessential components you could easily bring the TDP down to next to nothing. Obviously the handheld won't be a literal wiiU but given a few years of optimization and a more efficient GPU from AMD the next handheld could be a wiiU in a handheld form factor.

You can't optimise the wiiu processor (as you suggest) and use an amd processor (as your article suggests), as they are different architectures. And the one the Wii U currently uses (PPC), while good, is a dead end given what's happening at IBM. They will have to go ARM/X86, which AMD could supply, but which means any power calculations based on the Wii U are meaningless. The GPU would also change, even if AMD make it I suspect it'd be GCN rather then the now somewhat archaic VLIW.
 

bomblord1

Banned
AMD would have to make an SOC that included a PPC CPU. There's no way in hell you can just say "offload CPU calls from one architecture and run it on a GPU" at any decent speed or compatibility. "Offloads work" doesn't mean compatibility; it means you can program the GPU to run some code instead of the CPU and then funnel back.

Now, having said that, I don't think it would be a bad idea for Nintendo to include the Wii U CPU inside of their next "home" device. It would keep compatibility with existing Wii U software, while still letting the system run their new platform software. This is assuming their new platform is ARM-based.

I'm not going to pretend to know how the intricacies of how the wiiU's GPGPU works but I thought it could literally take CPU code and run it if told to do so.
 

MilesTeg

Banned
I think what Iwata means by absorbing Wii U architecture, is that that is what Nintendo has been working with on Wii U. So in order for a seamless transition between generations (meaning keep pumping out games), Iwata wishes to keep the development environment intact despite changing hardware. It would be enormously challenging for Nintendo's fundamental game development to switch to something else so soon, especially when they barely have any HD experience to begin with and many of their teams are still working with 3DS. I mean lots of their teams haven't even released an HD game yet.

A console that absorbs Wii U architecture allows current game development to stay the course despite a change in hardware. It also allows for Nintendo to potentially start developing games now for a new console given it will be able to run Wii U code. Heck they could develop actual Wii U games and hold them back for a new console launch to flesh out the initial lineup, kinda similar to what they did with GCN - Wii.
 

bomblord1

Banned
You can't optimise the wiiu processor (as you suggest) and use an amd processor (as your article suggests), as they are different architectures. And the one the Wii U currently uses (PPC), while good, is a dead end given what's happening at IBM. They will have to go ARM/X86, which AMD could supply, but which means any power calculations based on the Wii U are meaningless. The GPU would also change, even if AMD make it I suspect it'd be GCN rather then the now somewhat archaic VLIW.

Shouldn't a properly customized AMD GPU run the wiiU's GPU code even if it's based on a newer architecture?
 
There is no debate. They said they won´t do it. Period.
Iwata even mentioned iOS and android as an example. Unified software - not hardware.
Plain and simple: There won´t be a hybrid.



Yes, i am stuck on your docking station and the word hybrid.
Imagine Iwata dancing naked singing nonono. Thats the answer to this. And we would still have a weekly debate on the hybrid ídea.

Can you provide any specific evidence where it has been ruled out? Seriously, stop spitting nonsense out like facts. Everything you've interpeted is based off assumptions from vague interviews, nothing is confirmed.

While yes, the unified software seems most logical and allows for two revenue streams from hardware by keeping handheld and console separate I have three points that make me believe unified hardware will happen:

1. Consumers have already proven they don't want two Nintendo systems. If anything they will continue to shrink their isolated userbases because Nintendo forces them to be separate. If they are indeed unifying the software why the hell would I buy a handheld that plays the exact same game on a more expensive console?

2. Nintendo is not Apple. They don't offer a music store, or an on demand video store, or a product that links to my calendar, contacts, or Internet bookmarks. Unifying the underlying ecosystem means jack shit to me because Nintendo does not offer anything in their ecosystem. Unified software to me means that development structure is nothing different between handheld and console anymore. One portable controller ties to a home device that all play the same and can operate independtly if needed.

3. Hardware margins are shit. People claim Nintendo needs revenue from both hardware sales when in reality what keeps them a float is software and royalties. Royalties have tanked with third parties leaving, they need this back. Creating one simple platform tailored to their needs can possibly getting them back on track.
 

atbigelow

Member
I'm not going to pretend to know how the intricacies of how the wiiU's GPGPU works but I thought it could literally take CPU code and run it if told to do so.
GPUs don't work like that at all. GPGPU purely means it can do other things than render graphics with its shaders.

Basically instead of writing CPU code to do calculate something, say physics, you write GPU code to do it instead. Entirely different types of code needs to be written.

Shouldn't a properly customized AMD GPU run the code even if it's based on a newer architecture?
The GPU does not run any CPU code. The GPU runs GPU code. The newer GCN shader design will still run standard shaders, so there's less of an issue with transitioning to a newer GPU design.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Now I'm aware Iwata has said he doesn't want it to be a literal wiiU so there will be room for improvement. Given that there exists 1 teraflop mobile GPU's out now given a few years of optimization we could see Nintendo's next handheld possibly outperform the PS4/XOne.



Urgh. It's 1Tflop at FP16, half precision, they have a double speed mode for FP16. Then you're comparing it (I assume) to tflop numbers of other GPUs running at FP32.

I think it should be around 500Gflops for single precision. It's also around 3x higher TDP than what may be needed for a handheld.
 

bomblord1

Banned
GPUs don't work like that at all. GPGPU purely means it can do other things than render graphics with its shaders.

Basically instead of writing CPU code to do calculate something, say physics, you write GPU code to do it instead. Entirely different types of code needs to be written.


The GPU does not run any CPU code. The GPU runs GPU code.

Regarding purely your second point. I was talking about the wiiU's GPU not CPU.
 

DizzyCrow

Member
AMD would have to make an SOC that included a PPC CPU. There's no way in hell you can just say "offload CPU calls from one architecture and run it on a GPU" at any decent speed or compatibility. "Offloads work" doesn't mean compatibility; it means you can program the GPU to run some code instead of the CPU and then funnel back.

Now, having said that, I don't think it would be a bad idea for Nintendo to include the Wii U CPU inside of their next "home" device. It would keep compatibility with existing Wii U software, while still letting the system run their new platform software. This is assuming their new platform is ARM-based.

Also, GPU architecture for the Wii U is just some Radeon-like something. Nintendo has already transitioned their workflow to use modern GPU programming. There's not much they need to "preserve" the Wii U GPU as it stands. That part has already been abstracted out. The CPU is the where the compatibility problems with arise.
It is a bad idea, it would make it more expensive, a lot of games require the gamepad(even if it's not that useful with some of them) so anyone who don't own a Wii U would have to buy one but Nintendo would have to sell the gamepad at retail which is something highly unlikely due to Wii U's lack of popularity, if they don't sell it only Wii U owners would be able to use the BC, but if you already own a Wii U what's the point? And why Nintendo would add such feature to a really small subset of players? Having BC with the best selling Nintendo console didn't help Wii U at all.
 
This seems like a bit of a leap of logic based on a single flop, particularly coming immediately after a generation where nintendo had two of the biggest successes to consumers in their entire history

Every successive Nintendo console and handheld outside of the Wii/DS generation has seen a smaller userbase. I go off of trends, not anomalies.
 

Turrican3

Member
Nintendo's next handheld will be a powerhouse that also plays console games.
I believe it's far, far more likely that it will go the other way round, ie the home console will be a decently specced hardware that will also be able to run some or even all the games of the handheld.
 

Turrican3

Member
Can you provide any specific evidence where it has been ruled out?
Iwata said:
Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferrable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform. They will also work to avoid software lineup shortages or software development delays which tend to happen just after the launch of new hardware.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130131/05.html
 

atbigelow

Member
It is a bad idea, it would make it more expensive, a lot of games require the gamepad(even if it's not that useful with some of them) so anyone who don't own a Wii U would have to buy one so Nintendo would have to sell the gamepad at retail which is something highly unlikely due to Wii U's lack of popularity, if they don't sell it only Wii U owners would be able to use the BC, but if you already own a Wii U what's the point? And why Nintendo would add such feature to a really small subset of players? Having BC with the best selling Nintendo console didn't help Wii U at all.

I don't see Nintendo throwing away compatibility with the Wii U. They've shown through their last three home generations that they consider BC an important factor.

Consumers would only need a gamepad to play (old) Wii U software. They won't need to sell retail gamepads because I'm also assuming their new platform will not use it. It is purely to allow consumers who have Wii Us to unplug them but still play their games on it. See: every argument about BC.

The Wii U CPU is a pretty low-cost part even now. That doesn't speak to what it would cost to try and integrate it with an ARM SOC, though.
 

georly

Member
I don't expect it to play ridiculously powerful games, but it would be nice if it did something like what the vita/ps3/4 did, where SOME games would run on both, and if you saved in the cloud, you could resume playing on either console.

Would be nice if Nintendo made some games that didn't NEED to be graphical powerhouses, and could run simultaneously on both. Like the next mario game. Maybe the next smash game in 6+ years could be even more similar than these were. Same stages, etc. And of course, virtual console titles should have cross-buy/play. I'd be great to play some advance wars on Wii U and then resume where I left off on my handheld once i'm in bed.

I don't need a Zelda Wii U on a handheld, but it would sure be nice if other games were cross-buy/play.
 

bomblord1

Banned
GPUs don't work like that at all. GPGPU purely means it can do other things than render graphics with its shaders.

Basically instead of writing CPU code to do calculate something, say physics, you write GPU code to do it instead. Entirely different types of code needs to be written.

Alright, let's go a different direction. What about virtualization/emulation of the PPC similar to Intel's Rosetta?? Would that be possible?
 

MilesTeg

Banned
Right he's referencing last years news that the software architecture is being combined, I still don't feel that confirms their stance on hardware, he's simply clarifying the news.

I don't think it can get any clearer. "We don't mean combining them to make only one machine". I mean really, what more do you want.
 

atbigelow

Member
I can't speak to the exactness of this, but I'm imagining the SDKs for the PS3, PS4, and PSV are all wildly different. If anything the PS4 and PSV SDKs would be similar due to their proximity.

You can play the same "game" across these platforms, but they are all radically different hardware. Nintendo might follow the same idea in that they just adapt whatever the Wii U SDK is, going forward. They can unify "software" without unifying hardware.

I think that's the bare minimum of what they are doing. I'd rather see unified hardware as well, though.

Alright, let's go a different direction. What about virtualization/emulation of the PPC similar to Intel's Rosetta?? Would that be possible?
It's definitely an option, but Nintendo has rarely gone with a software solution unless absolutely needed. They could have with a different CPU architecture for the Wii U, but Wii hardware compatibility was a big checkbox they wanted. I think that decision has been an overwhelmingly bad one; perhaps they won't follow the same idea next time around.
 

-Horizon-

Member
It won't replace the home console. It will share the same library as Nintendo's next home console. It will still be dual screen with one 3D screen. It will be a good step up from the Vita. I have to wonder if they will drop BC or not. Like they could start offering DS and 3DS classic games downloads on the eshop instead of making it BC through using carts kind of like how the Vita can play PSP and PS1 games.
 
Every successive Nintendo console and handheld outside of the Wii/DS generation has seen a smaller userbase. I go off of trends, not anomalies.

Disregarding 20% of the total data - and the most recent data - to support a hypothesis isn't exactly robust data sampling methodology.
For example, that exact statement holds true about Sony disregarding the PS2.
 

z0m3le

Banned
So first off, Nvidia is lying, the mobile GPU X1 is a 10watt apu that does 512GFLOPs not 1TFLOP, they use this number because the X1's FP16 peak performance is 1TFLOPs, however this is half precision, they also note that FP32 peak performance is 512GFLOPs, which is single precision and what everyone is noting when they talk about performance.

That was a 10 watt part, Nintendo will need a part under 3watts. Looking at AMD mullins, we find a 128GFLOPs part on 28nm @ 500mhz using only 2.8watts. Perfect, now Nintendo will be using 14nm most likely, because AMD will be offering it in 2016 thanks to samsung and global founderies. This could mean 256GFLOPs at ~3watts. Great, that is more powerful than Wii U's GPU which is 176GFLOPs, and if Nintendo's handheld is 480p or 540p (my preference as this is 1/4th of a 1080p screen and thus goes 4x further) you have a handheld that can perform alongside a much more powerful console (say ~8x more powerful) giving the console 1080p @ 60fps (16CUs @ 1GHz for 2TFLOPs of performance) and the handheld 540p @ 30fps displaying the same scene roughly. you'd only need 4x the memory, especially if it's faster, so 2GB in the handheld (like Wii U) and 8GB in the console.

Nintendo's real exciting thing here though is not that their handheld might be much more powerful than Wii U, but that all future titles will likely be made for both devices, allowing the company to focus on releasing their 25+ titles across both and focusing not on making 2 versions of the same game (smash 3DS and smash U or MK7 and MK8) but on creating just one of those games in each series + new games in new genres while never having to worry about droughts, also Vita's love for indies should transfer over to Nintendo's next handheld, the barrier for 3DS is the old tech, but Wii U has strong indie support now and we could see this happen in both devices as releasing content on one could be impossible, meaning creating a title on a Nintendo platform means making a game for 2 devices at the same time with only fidelity changing between handheld and console.

The numbers have been thrown around by a GAF member, and he has shown that it is much more profitable to make 1 game for 2 devices than 2 games for 2 different devices, even if only 1 device gets the sales in this "NintendOS" setup. Another benefit is marketing 1 platform, "NintendOS" is easier than marketing 2 separate platforms, it becomes a much more compelling set up for Nintendo and makes too much sense.

We talk about how successful PS4 is with it's 18.5m units sold in 1 year and how brutally poor 3DS and Wii U have done across their 3 and 2 years respectfully, but together those platforms have sold ~60m units in 3 and 2 years combined, even if you threw out Wii U's market completely, ~50m+ units in 3 years is a market that Nintendo can release huge titles like zelda and xenoblade x and take risks because those titles have a base that can support them. 3rd parties while not being universally accepting of Nintendo, are much more likely to come back if they can make 1 game to target both a handheld and console together with a userbase of 50m+. Both of those platforms had horrible launch and first years, so that number might change drastically for the better, how many people here would buy/already own a device that came out in 2011 and played all future 3DS and Wii U titles? Bayonetta on a handheld? yes please!? How about Fire Emblem Awakening or Pokemon X/Y on a console? UH take my money.

This poor output Nintendo is stuck with supporting 2 platforms will be gone forever, that is what the promise of NintendOS is, so don't worry about the specs too much, even if the handheld is only 128GFLOPs, at 540p that is going to be very similar to Wii U and considering the ~4inch screen that they are likely to use? you'll be looking at a higher DPI than Vita, very close to smart phones from only a couple years ago in terms of resolution, with performance around the top of the line today.
 

Turrican3

Member
Right he's referencing last years news that the software architecture is being combined, I still don't feel that confirms their stance on hardware, he's simply clarifying the news.
Iwata said:
Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform.

To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples.

Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html

There's this one which is more recent... I think it's safe to assume that there won't be an hybrid at least for the next generation.
 

Trago

Member
I don't expect it to play ridiculously powerful games, but it would be nice if it did something like what the vita/ps3/4 did, where SOME games would run on both, and if you saved in the cloud, you could resume playing on either console.

Would be nice if Nintendo made some games that didn't NEED to be graphical powerhouses, and could run simultaneously on both. Like the next mario game. Maybe the next smash game in 6+ years could be even more similar than these were. Same stages, etc. And of course, virtual console titles should have cross-buy/play. I'd be great to play some advance wars on Wii U and then resume where I left off on my handheld once i'm in bed.

I don't need a Zelda Wii U on a handheld, but it would sure be nice if other games were cross-buy/play.

I care about this more than anything else really. I want all my VC games to be cross buy and cross saves. Nintendo don't use the cloud do they?
 

JP

Member
What I would love from this would be for them to unify the handheld and home console. I'd like them to learn a lot from what Sony have messed with this generation (CrossBuy, CrossPlay, CrossSave, etc), I end up buying the old games again and again and I'm not even complaining about that but I would like the game to work on both consoles. Ideally for me a couple of years down the line they would release a DS style Wii U and ALL games would work across both formats.

That would make me so happy!!









Also every single game that Nintendo have released should be available to play on them both, please, please, please, please.
 
sharp_free_form_display_1-729x420.jpg


Sharp is supposedly providing some version of their circular display for the console. The question is to what end? Could it be a screen within a screen?
 

DizzyCrow

Member
I don't see Nintendo throwing away compatibility with the Wii U. They've shown through their last three home generations that they consider BC an important factor.
Only Wii and Wii U have BC.

Consumers would only need a gamepad to play (old) Wii U software. They won't need to sell retail gamepads because I'm also assuming their new platform will not use it. It is purely to allow consumers who have Wii Us to unplug them but still play their games on it. See: every argument about BC.
So you want them to double down on one of the main factors of the Wii U high price and which Nintendo still is stumbling trying to prove that is worth something to the mass market so people can play Wii U games on it? Most people don't care about BC(see PS4/XB1) if they really want to play a Wii U game they can play it on Wthe ii U.

The
Wii U CPU is a pretty low-cost part even now. That doesn't speak to what it would cost to try and integrate it with an ARM SOC, though.
Do you have a source for that?
 

RM8

Member
Setting yourself for disappointment, OP. Comparable to PS4/XB1? For real? Not only have Nintendo's handhelds always been modest, but the one time they launch at a higher price point (3DS) they had an incredibly rocky start. Nintendo's next handheld will be pretty modest, just like all the previous ones.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Enough about specs, this thing better be clam shell or bust. I hope they don't give up on dual screens either.

I'm a fan of clam-shell portables (Advance SP for life!) But I am pretty ambivalent when it comes to dual screens.
 
As others have said, I'm not expecting a true hybrid console, but a unified OS at this point. I'd expect the next gen handheld and console to play the same games, with the console version offering better graphics and effects, if nothing else.

The only thing I would like to see, though, is maybe like an mini-HDMI port and the ability to pair the Wii U or next gen console's controller to the handheld via Bluetooth. That would effectively give us a means to play the thing on a TV, which would satisfy a lot of people, I think.
 

sd28821

Member
So first off, Nvidia is lying, the mobile GPU X1 is a 10watt apu that does 512GFLOPs not 1TFLOP, they use this number because the X1's FP16 peak performance is 1TFLOPs, however this is half precision, they also note that FP32 peak performance is 512GFLOPs, which is single precision and what everyone is noting when they talk about performance.

That was a 10 watt part, Nintendo will need a part under 3watts. Looking at AMD mullins, we find a 128GFLOPs part on 28nm @ 500mhz using only 2.8watts. Perfect, now Nintendo will be using 14nm most likely, because AMD will be offering it in 2016 thanks to samsung and global founderies. This could mean 256GFLOPs at ~3watts. Great, that is more powerful than Wii U's GPU which is 176GFLOPs, and if Nintendo's handheld is 480p or 540p (my preference as this is 1/4th of a 1080p screen and thus goes 4x further) you have a handheld that can perform alongside a much more powerful console (say ~8x more powerful) giving the console 1080p @ 60fps (16CUs @ 1GHz for 2TFLOPs of performance) and the handheld 540p @ 30fps displaying the same scene roughly. you'd only need 4x the memory, especially if it's faster, so 2GB in the handheld (like Wii U) and 8GB in the console.

Nintendo's real exciting thing here though is not that their handheld might be much more powerful than Wii U, but that all future titles will likely be made for both devices, allowing the company to focus on releasing their 25+ titles across both and focusing not on making 2 versions of the same game (smash 3DS and smash U or MK7 and MK8) but on creating just one of those games in each series + new games in new genres while never having to worry about droughts, also Vita's love for indies should transfer over to Nintendo's next handheld, the barrier for 3DS is the old tech, but Wii U has strong indie support now and we could see this happen in both devices as releasing content on one could be impossible, meaning creating a title on a Nintendo platform means making a game for 2 devices at the same time with only fidelity changing between handheld and console.

The numbers have been thrown around by a GAF member, and he has shown that it is much more profitable to make 1 game for 2 devices than 2 games for 2 different devices, even if only 1 device gets the sales in this "NintendOS" setup. Another benefit is marketing 1 platform, "NintendOS" is easier than marketing 2 separate platforms, it becomes a much more compelling set up for Nintendo and makes too much sense.

We talk about how successful PS4 is with it's 18.5m units sold in 1 year and how brutally poor 3DS and Wii U have done across their 3 and 2 years respectfully, but together those platforms have sold ~60m units in 3 and 2 years combined, even if you threw out Wii U's market completely, ~50m+ units in 3 years is a market that Nintendo can release huge titles like zelda and xenoblade x and take risks because those titles have a base that can support them. 3rd parties while not being universally accepting of Nintendo, are much more likely to come back if they can make 1 game to target both a handheld and console together with a userbase of 50m+. Both of those platforms had horrible launch and first years, so that number might change drastically for the better, how many people here would buy/already own a device that came out in 2011 and played all future 3DS and Wii U titles? Bayonetta on a handheld? yes please!? How about Fire Emblem Awakening or Pokemon X/Y on a console? UH take my money.

This poor output Nintendo is stuck with supporting 2 platforms will be gone forever, that is what the promise of NintendOS is, so don't worry about the specs too much, even if the handheld is only 128GFLOPs, at 540p that is going to be very similar to Wii U and considering the ~4inch screen that they are likely to use? you'll be looking at a higher DPI than Vita, very close to smart phones from only a couple years ago in terms of resolution, with performance around the top of the line today.

great post
 

MilesTeg

Banned
This poor output Nintendo is stuck with supporting 2 platforms will be gone forever, that is what the promise of NintendOS is, so don't worry about the specs too much, even if the handheld is only 128GFLOPs, at 540p that is going to be very similar to Wii U and considering the ~4inch screen that they are likely to use? you'll be looking at a higher DPI than Vita, very close to smart phones from only a couple years ago in terms of resolution, with performance around the top of the line today.

I agree, this for sure is the most exciting thing about Nintendo's next generation. The spec discussion isn't that interesting as we know Nintendo will be going low spec.

For me, form factor is more interesting. Does Nintendo try some crazy new input methods on either handheld or console again ala the DS or Wii? Or do they play it safe and go traditional.

If it were me, I would go traditional. Basically a Pro Controller for the console, and a Gamepad esque design for the handheld. That way both devices share the majority of inputs making porting games a breeze and lets Nintendo release games on each as fast as possible, and even day and date with eachother which would be huge. For compatibility between devices, let the handheld act as a controller for the console with off screen play available and call it a day.

As we see with N3DS, it's now very close to console standard controls which could indicate a move in this direction.

But Nintendo might think they need a unique hook for each given they will be sharing software. After all, Nintendo loves trying new input methods so I wouldn't say anything is certain.

Also if Nintendo has an abundance of Gamepad screens due to the Wii U Gamepad, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same screen in their handheld as a cost cutting measure. I don't have much knowledge if this is something that could actually happen so if someone has more insight feel free to elaborate.
 

E-Cat

Member
Given that there exists 1 teraflop mobile GPU's out now given a few years of optimization we could see Nintendo's next handheld possibly outperform the PS4/XOne.

Reality check: Nintendo's current home console barely outperforms the last-gen consoles. Their current handheld is less powerful than the last-last-gen consoles (though with advanced shader capabilities). And you expect their next handheld to outperform PS4/X0? lol

The new Tegra is only 512 GFLOPS in FP32 performance if you want to compare apples to apples.
 

gafneo

Banned
I think there will be 2 more 3ds machines. A 3ds that is larger, and comes with 2 big console duel sticks that can also be bought as a second Wii U controller. Next We will get a 3ds that comes with an hdmi port so you can plug into Tvs. you can Sync many Wii and Wii U controllers to it to make it console like. After this moment on, Nintendo will update the specs every year until its next gen quality.
 

bomblord1

Banned
Reality check: Nintendo's current home console barely outperforms the last-gen consoles. Their current handheld is less powerful than the last-last-gen consoles (though with advanced shader capabilities). And you expect their next handheld to outperform PS4/X0? lol

The new Tegra is only 512 GFLOPS in FP32 performance if you want to compare apples to apples.

Yes but mobile power is on an exponential curve and typical cycles mean the handheld will be announced around 2016. Even at 512gflops Assuming the current curve continues a mobile GPU hitting 2 teraflops by the end of 2016 is very likely. Getting even a "weaker" modern (for 2016) GPU in the console if Nintendo goes with a 540p or even 720p screen outputting a game in that resolution that looks similar to a ps4/xone launch title should be possible.
 
Can you provide any specific evidence where it has been ruled out? Seriously, stop spitting nonsense out like facts. Everything you've interpeted is based off assumptions from vague interviews, nothing is confirmed.

While yes, the unified software seems most logical and allows for two revenue streams from hardware by keeping handheld and console separate I have three points that make me believe unified hardware will happen:

1. Consumers have already proven they don't want two Nintendo systems. If anything they will continue to shrink their isolated userbases because Nintendo forces them to be separate. If they are indeed unifying the software why the hell would I buy a handheld that plays the exact same game on a more expensive console?

2. Nintendo is not Apple. They don't offer a music store, or an on demand video store, or a product that links to my calendar, contacts, or Internet bookmarks. Unifying the underlying ecosystem means jack shit to me because Nintendo does not offer anything in their ecosystem. Unified software to me means that development structure is nothing different between handheld and console anymore. One portable controller ties to a home device that all play the same and can operate independtly if needed.

3. Hardware margins are shit. People claim Nintendo needs revenue from both hardware sales when in reality what keeps them a float is software and royalties. Royalties have tanked with third parties leaving, they need this back. Creating one simple platform tailored to their needs can possibly getting them back on track.

I dont know... is the fucking CEO prove enough?
Slowly: No hybrid. Still two gaming systems next generation. Mentioning iOS and Android as examples for a future ecosystem across multiple Nintendo hardwares. All said by Iwata in his last QoL briefings, financial statements and shareholder meetings. We had multiple threads about it. Go and search. Can´t believe i get called out for stating the facts in a hybrid thread. :D
 
Combining these two again for future reference:

Iwata aka the CEO of Nintendo said:
Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferrable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform. They will also work to avoid software lineup shortages or software development delays which tend to happen just after the launch of new hardware.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130131/05.html


Iwata aka the CEO of Nintendo said:
Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform.

To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples.

Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html


Thx to Turrican3.
 
If Nintendo were to release one product that combines handheld and home console, they'd be compressing their two hardware and software revenue streams down to one. This is not what you're suggesting, I know. I'm just pointing it out because it makes terrible business sense.

If Nintendo were to release two products, one of which is a handheld capable of running home console games, they'd be cannibalizing their home console sales. Not only that, but said handheld would have to be more expensive than what the market allows. Their next handheld needs to be priced at $200 or less, or it won't fly. They are competing against subsidized, multi-purpose smartphones, tablets and hand-me-downs.

They need to drop PowerPC. It's a dead end. When Iwata talked about "absorption", I hope he was translated talking about other aspects of the Wii U's architecture, or the Broadcom streaming tech, or something else entirely. My bets are on an ARM/GCN-based combo for each platform, and a unified development environment on top of this. Their aim should be set on making it as easy as possible to target both platforms at the same time. They would then have a much easier time developing both home console and handheld editions of their own games (à la Smash Bros.), which would work really nicely if they were to offer cross-purchase/cross-save for owners of both systems. It would also be a way for third parties to offset their development costs onto two install bases, and also offer a way for Nintendo to breathe life into their home console business through their strong handheld presence. They need to invite the right third party developers into this decision making process, as well.
 

E-Cat

Member
Yes but mobile power is on an exponential curve and typical cycles mean the handheld will be announced around 2016. Even at 512gflops Assuming the current curve continues a mobile GPU hitting 2 teraflops by the end of 2016 is very likely. Getting even a "weaker" modern (for 2016) GPU in the console if Nintendo goes with a 540p or even 720p screen outputting a game in that resolution that looks similar to a ps4/xone launch title should be possible.

3DS was announced 4.5 years into the 7th generation, so there will actually have been less time between the start of the current console generation and the announcement of Nintendo's handheld in 2016.

What's more, Moore's Law has had some hiccups lately. We've been stuck on the 28nm node for more than three years now, which far exceeds the normal 2-year cadence. Without new manufacturing processes, power-efficiency can only go so far. 16nm is coming but it may well take another year.

True, mobile processing has been advancing faster than desktop processing due to catching up to the discrete GPU architectures. Tegra K1 is built on the Kepler architecture, and X1 is Maxwell as we know. However, now that there's parity, there won't be huge gains from microarchitectural innovations compared to the desktop side anymore. No trend lasts forever. Also note that X1's memory bandwidth is still PS3 level.

Finally, as noted by z0m3le, the X1 is 10 W while Nintendo wants something with a power envelope perhaps one fourth of that. And historically, whatever part Nintendo choose for their handheld, it won't be even near cutting-edge computationally.
 
Shouldn't a properly customized AMD GPU run the wiiU's GPU code even if it's based on a newer architecture?

Yes, but I was commenting on your talk of optimisation and die shrinks of current wii u hardware. Everything in there is dead-end technology, so nothing about the wii u hardware wise will be brought over.

GPU code itself won't be an issue as GCN should run everything Latte is currently doing, but nintendo will be starting anew here with what ever optimisations are already inherant in the new x86/arm tech they pay AMD for, there won't be any "benefits" brought over from how efficient the Wii U is.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
But how would this new handheld handle backwards compatibility without dual screens?
Like MrNyarlathotep said, the 2DS only have one screen and it works fine. Brain Training DS (and maybe more DS games too) are available on the WiiU as well, at least in Japan. It should be possible to emulate it fine on one screen.


I'm mostly curious if Nintendo will do the dual screen design for the 3rd time in a row or if they will try something different. I think the price point will be at $199/20,000 yen tops.
 

Somnid

Member
I hope it finally gets bluetooth with support for standard audio profiles and GPS support for Geopassing.

This whole hybrid thing is stupid. Different form factors have different strengths and weaknesses. I don't play Candy Crush on my Mac and I don't edit spreadsheets on my iPod. In gaming this is even more pronounced with couch multiplayer, motion controls, and unique interactions like Streetpass. It's important to deliver both because one device cannot possibly cover it.
 

Trago

Member
Like MrNyarlathotep said, the 2DS only have one screen and it works fine. Brain Training DS (and maybe more DS games too) are available on the WiiU as well, at least in Japan. It should be possible to emulate it fine on one screen.


I'm mostly curious if Nintendo will do the dual screen design for the 3rd time in a row or if they will try something different. I think the price point will be at $199/20,000 yen tops.

I strongly doubt that. They need to go under $199 if they can.
 
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