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Emerson · Jan 28, 2015

joe2187 said:
Just look at the response she gets to a couple tweets just done in the last few days.

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/560157023421988864

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/560165722957967360

It's really odd people even consider that she would be making this shit up when it's right there, happening right in front of them.

I scrolled through several pageloads of comments for each of those tweets and didn't identify a single nasty response. It's very possible I missed one but the response to those in particular is clearly overwhelmingly positive.

I am in no way saying she does not get awful things said to her, but I don't think these are good examples.

Deleted member 10571 · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

What about them?

besada · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

What about juniors who deflect from the actual topic by posting off-topic nonsense like this.

Beelzebufo · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

I'm sure she gets a ton of hate too, but maybe not quite enough to make a post like in the OP? It would be interesting if women in the gaming community started putting out collections of death/rape threats they're sent. Either way, I'm sure the hate she does get is just as terrible, just as pointless, and just as infantile.

KoopaTheCasual · Jan 28, 2015

besada said:
What about juniors who deflect from the actual topic by posting off-topic nonsense like this.

lol, seems to be a pandemic of that in this thread.

TheLostArcader · Jan 28, 2015

Some her points I agree with and some I don't. On occasion her way of stating her points has rubbed me the wrong way but these people are idiots.

Yahtzee Croshaw has mentioned how no matter how much of a good argument you may have there is always that person that comes in the room, yells "Fuck yeah man!", and takes a shit on the floor invalidating your entire point and argument.

That's how these people make me feel. Even if I don't agree with her, even if the way she states her opinion ticks me off, even if I have a perfectly good argument that is valid it all falls to not. My opinions are invalidated by these anger driven numskulls vocally shitting on the floor.

NoblesseOblige · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

It's her body and thus her decision to dress how she wants.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand however.

Morrigan Stark · Jan 28, 2015

dragonzdogma said:
Eh,anyone remember when Peter Moore got a GTA4 tattoo,anyone eh?
-_-

Lime said:
Okay this got a laugh out of me

Hmm I don't get this one. Feel like I'm missing a joke... ^^

crowphoenix said:
Woman's place... Get back to... Make me a... Blah blah blah blah.

Some guy here made a kitchen (or was it sandwich? or both, I forgot) joke here in a gender thread not long ago, and when people pointed out it was stupid and unfunny, he got hilariously defensive and said those who reacted negatively to his "obvious joke" are humourless and contribute to the toxic atmosphere. Kinda surreal, really.
Won't someone please think of the kitchen jokes?

OneEyeTwoHead said:
Meh. Nature of being a "celebrity"

I wonder what kinda msgs legit celebrities get on a daily basis on Twitter.

...What's a "legit celebrity"?

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

Er... what about her? Do you have some sort of point?

Phreaker · Jan 28, 2015

Brian★;149467325 said:
isn't she a gamer?

No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Beelzebufo · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Actually, it's exactly the opposite. She's been a gamer since childhood

Neuromancer · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

What about them?

NoblesseOblige · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Source please. Because if it's what I'm thinking of she actually said she wasn't a fan of games, though she would love to be if they were more welcoming. A quote that has been taken so far out of context that anyone who brings it up is almost instantly categorized as ignorant in my mind.

Nirolak · Jan 28, 2015

Mesoian said:
Wow, really? I was trying to keep things simple because, as other have stated, dwelving into the minutiae of every positive and negative decision that's been made surrounding this project isn't the purpose of this thread. And to keep that theme going, I'm just going to respond to the nitty gritty of my thoughts on the matter to you in a PM. Beyond that, I'd just point you to the thread above your own.

And considering every post in this thread, and pretty much 95% of my posts in similar threads have been FOR Anita Sarkessian and her efforts, you're kneejerk reaction of me finding any reason to possibly attack her comes off as unfair and unwarranted.

It's not about discrediting her. You can make a mistake and not suddenly be a failure to the cause much in the same way that you can point out a mistake and not think that person is terrible at their job. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone trips up now and then, pointing out said mistakes is how we learn.

"Keeping things simple" on a complex topic generally isn't a great idea.

It's important to fully articulate arguments so that your position is clear to everyone reading it, especially if you're replying to a longer post, giving a quick sentence isn't going to express your side or reflect any level of real interest in discussing a topic beyond dismissing it "or in the case of agreement, going 'what they said'."

We can't read your mind and we can only try to divine your intentions. If you want to say something and feel it's an appropriate place to bring it up at all, then do so in a full manner. We encourage that, not punish for it.

Feel free to post whatever you were going to PM me here instead. If you feel you've been unfairly represented, you should have a platform to illustrate so.

Morrigan Stark · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

This was taken out of context. She is definitely a gamer. She didn't consider herself a gamer when that video was taken.

I called myself a gamer in 1996. I played the PSX a lot then. During the PS2 era I played less for various reasons and if someone asked me if I was a gamer I'd probably have said "no, just a casual one at best". Now I play far more. Probably more than ever.

Guess it's a good thing there isn't a video of me in 2005 saying I am not much of a gamer. That could be used against me to attack my gamer cred. The horror!

MrBadger · Jan 28, 2015

Beelzebufo said:
Actually, it's exatly the opposite. She's been a gamer since childhood

She strikes me as someone who didn't have much of an interest in modern games until she started doing her videos. Personally, I don't think that's a bad thing as the perspective of an outsider looking in can be more valuable than that of someone who's a more prominent gamer because the outsider wouldn't be completely desensitised to certain aspects.

kmax · Jan 28, 2015

nitekrawlwer said:
I'm not opposed to What Anita has to say. I think it's great discussion that needs to be had.

That having been said I'm not exactly sure how online harassment became a feminist issue. I've heard young boys and grown men threaten each other over XBL in the same manner of the very tweets she's listing when I was doing tech support for the 360 during 05 or 06.

It's been very interesting to see people claim that if she were a male this wouldn't happen. Even Jack Thomspson received rape threats. Probably not as many, but being before twitter and other more anonymous social networking became ubiquitous it makes sense. There was a much more involved process to deliver these types of messages then than there is today.

This article actually seems to put it far better than I can so just read it instead of listening to my musings: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online.html

I don't see how that's an equivalent comparison. Anita's specifically being harassed for not only being a woman, but as well for championing for equal opportunities and treatment for both men and women. That's what feminism is all about. Instead of debating the issues at hand and have a clear and coherent dialogue about about the issues we're facing in the industry today, we have people engaging in misogynistic harassment and other vile scare tactics to try to shut her up. Sure, online harassment is universal, but its venom is very much potent in regards to feminism in gaming. We just have to take a good look at GamerGate to acknowledge that.

Platy · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Seeing the hate these girls receive I would probably say that I am not a gamer if they asked ...

....while using a nintendo themed shirt and with my 3ds on the purse

ForsakenLotus · Jan 28, 2015

Morrigan Stark said:
This was taken out of context. She is definitely a gamer. She didn't consider herself a gamer when that video was taken.

I called myself a gamer in 1996. I played the PSX a lot then. During the PS2 era I played less for various reasons and if someone asked me if I was a gamer I'd probably have said "no, just a casual one at best". Now I play far more. Probably more than ever.

Guess it's a good thing there isn't a video of me in 2005 saying I am not much of a gamer. That could be used against me to attack my gamer cred. The horror!

I vaguely remember her saying she's not a gamer, she did have a reason I believe. However, unless I'm mistaken she doesn't have much knowledge on the industry, and that is a fair point of contention.

Again, I may be mistaken or lacking in context, but I do believe she said she wasn't a gamer.

Elandyll · Jan 28, 2015

Disgusting.

As a father of two boys (way too young for now to be concerned by these kind of things), if I ever found them doing this kind of sh* in the future, a good spanking would be the least of their worries, regardless of age (no, I am not talking about an actual beating).

The creepy part is that as an individual of the male gender, I feel that those driveling cretins pull me in along in the same category by just sharing a chromosome with them.

Morons.

Jumplion · Jan 28, 2015

MisterShine said:
I added the bolded parts myself. I find these two posts being right next to each other very interesting. It seems that some people here on GAF feel intimidated from offering even benign criticism for fear of being lumped into that amorphous blob.

Should there be a thread dedicated to FF that doesn't allow discussion of the harassment she faces at all, to keep everyone on point?

There have been several attempts to starting a specific FF or feminism thread and they've all devolved.

Most legitimate criticisms I've seen of Sarkeesian's work is that her presentation is monotone, some of her examples are wishy-washy, and it doesn't go deep enough in some areas. Other than that, most criticisms can be brushed aside as the person not understanding the core of her argument or misrepresenting it totally.

The problem with whatever criticisms are thrown her way is that most of them can be traced to the amorphous blog that is QQ. She's been receiving this stuff for nigh 2 years. It's like saying "Now, I don't think Obama should be called a Kenyan-Muslim nigger, but...it's like any criticism of his policies lump me into those people! Totes unfair!" because, of course, you're the one suffering the indignity here, not the person receiving all that bullshit.

There is a time and place for criticism of her work. A thread where we see the truly horrific shit that people have thrown at her for the past two years is not that time or place.

Phreaker · Jan 28, 2015

NoblesseOblige said:
Source please. Because if it's what I'm thinking of she actually said she wasn't a fan of games, though she would love to be if they were more welcoming. A quote that has been taken so far out of context that anyone who brings it up is almost instantly categorized as ignorant in my mind.

Edit: Ok. She's NOT a fan of video games, but she's a gamer.

Snkfanatic · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

What does that have to do with anything though?

Cider · Jan 28, 2015

This makes me angry. Cyber-bullying is cowardice and vile

NoblesseOblige · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
Here you go. She actually says she is NOT a fan of video games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI

Yep, exactly what I thought. Void of context and not at all relevant to the question you were attempting to answer. You should be embarrassed if you assert she's not a gamer from that clip.

Mman235 · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Not this shit again. I'll just post something I sent to someone elsewhere:

Basically the "Anita's not a gamer" thing came from this video http://vimeo.com/13216819 where she's talking about intense fandoms and says she's not a fan of gaming. However, her idea of "gamer" at the time was someone who was into high-budget hyperviolent AAA dudebro stuff, but she still played other games. There's an article she wrote where she talks about this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/opinion/anita-sarkeesian-on-video-games-great-future.html?_r=0

The bottom of this RationalWiki page also goes over various parts of it: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian

On games forums close to the industry like Neogaf I've also seen people who actually work in the industry who have talked about and played games with Anita, so yeah, she's definitely a "gamer", at the least now.

nitekrawlwer · Jan 28, 2015

kmax said:
I don't see how that's an equivalent comparison. Anita's specifically being harassed for not only being a woman, but as well for championing for equal opportunities and treatment for both men and women. That's what feminism is all about. Instead of debating the issues at hand and have a clear and coherent dialogue about about the issues we're facing in the industry today, we have people engaging in misogynistic harassment and other vile scare tactics to try to shut her up. Sure, online harassment is universal, but its venom is very much potent in regards to feminism in gaming. We just have to take a good look at GamerGate to acknowledge that.

The speech is practically the same and thus the comparison. Not saying that either are right or deserved as they are definitely not.

leadbelly · Jan 28, 2015

Mman235 said:
Yeah Jack Thompson literally, openly wanted to prevent certain games from being sold, and was also very antagonistic in other ways. That doesn't justify what he got either, but it shows how a man had to do things orders of magnitude worse to get the same sort of harassment.

I don't think this is true either. Something else I have argued before. Adam Sessler literally feared for his life over nothing. Absolutely nothing. He weighed in on the resolution debate, basically taking the stance that it wasn't a big deal. He got loads of abuse for that and serious death threats. Wasn't that the reason he decided leave the industry?

The funny thing is, not many people even seem to know this. Of course what has happened to Anita is terrible, but I am of the view that we should be really looking at the issue when it comes to both genders, and all people, It is a problem for everyone.

Beelzebufo · Jan 28, 2015

Snkfanatic said:
What does that have to do with anything though?

I think we can just assume that he's saying that most women in the gaming industry are harassed, and he wants to see examples of the terrible things people say to harass cosplayers as well. That must be it, right? Right?

andymcc · Jan 28, 2015

Beelzebufo said:
I think we can just assume that he's saying that most women in the gaming industry are harassed, and he wants to see examples of the terrible things people say to harass cosplayers as well. That must be it, right? Right?

she's just ASKING for it in those sexy outfits!

Lime · Jan 28, 2015

nitekrawlwer said:
I don't understand how it makes my initial claim invalid. The internet is a toxic place for everyone provided you don't chose well moderated safe places. The numbers in that thread numbers show that women are far more likely to report this behavior than men which kinds skews the data bit.

For instance:
Most men probably wouldn't say they've been sexually harassed or the victims of sexism when their friends screams they are gonna rape them in a game. That right there is gonna make it look trivial for men as opposed to women even if it happens at a similar or greater rate for them.

I'm just trying to figure out why this is consistently framed as a feminist issue when it happens to everyone. Is it because a feminist is getting this vitriol?

.

Are you sure you read the thread? Let me repeat some of the stuff from it:

and

The goal of this study is to determine how gamers’ reactions to male voices differ from reactions to female voices. The authors conducted an observational study with an experimental design to play in and record multiplayer matches (N = 245) of a video game. The researchers played against 1,660 unique gamers and broadcasted pre-recorded audio clips of either a man or a woman speaking. Gamers’ reactions were digitally recorded, capturing what was said and heard during the game. Independent coders were used to conduct a quantitative content analysis of game data. Findings indicate that, on average, the female voice received three times as many negative comments as the male voice or no voice. In addition, the female voice received more queries and more messages from other gamers than the male voice or no voice.

And if that doesn't convince you read this:

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/it-doesnt-get-better-women-internet/

and this

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...how-social-media-turned-against-women/381261/

NZOO · Jan 28, 2015

I understand she is drawing the spotlight to her cause and these guys are fueling it, but what will be the outcome at the end of the day. I am all for change, but these days it seem like we can stand for something and that something just gets overshadowed for the next. I have yet to hear any plans on fixing the sexism and such so it's like a never ending thing.

Aeana · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
No, she's not, or at least she has said (on video) that she is not a gamer.

Here (at 11:58 or so) she says quite plainly that she has been playing games since she was 5 years old.

ibscpy · Jan 28, 2015

This is disgusting. I got through 4 posts and had to stop. I have been a working part of the industry for almost a decade. Its an industry that i love and believe in and feel is helpful for many. It's artful and entertaining. It saddens me beyond words that parts of our demographic can be so hateful and venomous.

bsod · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
I understand she is drawing the spotlight to her cause and these guys are fueling it, but what will be the outcome at the end of the day. I am all for change, but these days it seem like we can stand for something and that something just gets overshadowed for the next. I have yet to hear any plans on fixing the sexism and such so it's like a never ending thing.

What's your point, that the fight to end sexism should end because, at the end of the day, there isn't a treaty to sign that officially ends this kind of discrimination? Is that what you're saying?

Mesoian · Jan 28, 2015

MichMasteR said:
What about cosplayers who oversexualize videogame characters?

~Cough~JessicaNigri~Cough~

What about them?

Beelzebufo · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
I understand she is drawing the spotlight to her cause and these guys are fueling it, but what will be the outcome at the end of the day. I am all for change, but these days it seem like we can stand for something and that something just gets overshadowed for the next. I have yet to hear any plans on fixing the sexism and such so it's like a never ending thing.

Dragon Age Inquisition made a lot of progress on that front as compared to the last games from what I'm aware. Smash Bros added a lot more female characters, people are supporting female developers after seeing the harassment towards them, Intel gave millions of dollars to support diversity, etc.

I mean it's not an overnight change, but still.

Aeana said:
Here (at 11:58 or so) she says quite plainly that she has been playing games since she was 5 years old.

Thanks, I couldn't remember the link!

aeolist · Jan 28, 2015

Mman235 said:
Not this shit again. I'll just post something I sent to someone elsewhere:

one could listen to the idle thumbs podcast episode featuring anita herself in which she talks extensively about playing games generally and at the XOXO festival in particular. the idle thumbs people also discussed meeting and talking with her in previous episodes (can't remember which) and they describe her as being very knowledgeable and articulate about games, and these guys would know.

in any case it's a spurious and pointless accusation for any number of reasons. first because she does play games and has an understanding of the industry at least comparable to any random person on this forum. second because it doesn't matter even if she doesn't, since her arguments stand on their own. and third because the entire basis of the accusation is laughably stupid when taken in context. i know people who not only play games but make them professionally or as a hobby who do not describe themselves as gamers and frequently express contempt for the industry and the hobby itself because of the business and culture surrounding it.

foltzie1 · Jan 28, 2015

Phreaker said:
Edit: Ok. She's NOT a fan of video games, but she's a gamer.

Given that this is always taken out of context and none is ever coming from the poster this feels like it should fall under the same banner as posting a tfoot video.

NoblesseOblige · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
I understand she is drawing the spotlight to her cause and these guys are fueling it, but what will be the outcome at the end of the day. I am all for change, but these days it seem like we can stand for something and that something just gets overshadowed for the next. I have yet to hear any plans on fixing the sexism and such so it's like a never ending thing.

She's working within the industry by giving talks and opening dialogue and discussion about diversity in gaming so that content creators are more aware. I assume her hope is that once the content starts being created more frequently that it'll show (both to the makers and consumers) that diversity is good and promote a space for anyone to participate in.

NZOO · Jan 28, 2015

bsod said:
What's your point, that the fight to end sexism should end because, at the end of the day, there isn't a treaty to sign that officially ends this kind of discrimination? Is that what you're saying?

My point is to have REAL solutions to fix this. Meet with companies and see where things can change, get things done. Yes we have awareness, but I'm tired of preaching, now it's a time to act.

@Nob thanks for the insight

deadlast · Jan 28, 2015

Aeana said:
Here (at 11:58 or so) she says quite plainly that she has been playing games since she was 5 years old.

I remember that. I think the burden of proof is on phreaker. Because it would be interesting to see when and why should would say she's not a gamer.

andymcc · Jan 28, 2015

Aeana said:
Here (at 11:58 or so) she says quite plainly that she has been playing games since she was 5 years old.

i guess unless you have encyclopedic knowledge of the history of pop music, you cannot criticize a pop song.

Vlade · Jan 28, 2015

Cyan said:
I think it's useful to be able to respond to people who make that kind of claim with "no, I actually checked this and you are wrong."

I suppose someone should respond that way, and cheers.

i have trouble reading "i just looked at those tweets and this is totally normal" and not simply responding with "wow, thats dismissive bullshit" mirroring every ounce of effort used to produce that initial arguement.

MrBadger · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
My point is to have REAL solutions to fix this. Meet with companies and see where things can change, get things done. Yes we have awareness, but I'm tired of preaching, now it's a time to act.

The videos are a step towards fixing it. Already, game developers have seen them and made comments.

foltzie1 · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
My point is to have REAL solutions to fix this. Meet with companies and see where things can change, get things done. Yes we have awareness, but I'm tired of preaching, now it's a time to act.

@Nob thanks for the insight

Do you not understand that naming and documenting issues is step one?

Step two is offering solutions and would you look at that she is now consulting with some companies.

Holy smokes it's like there is a predictable process here.

fijim · Jan 28, 2015

I have pretended not to play games, or largely downplayed how much I played games in some situations in order not to look like a huge nerd in front of certain crowds. So I guess I am not a real gamer.

If I gave a speech to a class in college, you can be damn sure I would not have divulged how much I played games, and if discussing playing games, I would likely downplay it.

Also, you could be "a gamer" when you were a kid, and then not really play games anymore for a while, and then get back into it.

Orayn · Jan 28, 2015

NZOO said:
My point is to have REAL solutions to fix this. Meet with companies and see where things can change, get things done. Yes we have awareness, but I'm tired of preaching, now it's a time to act.

@Nob thanks for the insight

In cases where devs didn't even realize how tired and tasteless some of these tropes were, raising awareness is a solution. When you're made aware of a problem that you'd previously been ignoring, it makes a perfect opportunity to look at things from a new perspective and make changes. We've had several AAA developers report exactly this happening as a result of the Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series.

Papacheeks · Jan 28, 2015

kmax said:
I don't see how that's an equivalent comparison. Anita's specifically being harassed for not only being a woman, but as well for championing for equal opportunities and treatment for both men and women. That's what feminism is all about. Instead of debating the issues at hand and have a clear and coherent dialogue about about the issues we're facing in the industry today, we have people engaging in misogynistic harassment and other vile scare tactics to try to shut her up. Sure, online harassment is universal, but its venom is very much potent in regards to feminism in gaming. We just have to take a good look at GamerGate to acknowledge that.

The thing is her outlook on the game industry according to her video's is extremely Skewed. There has been more open design in the past couple gaming generations, then the total of video game history. We now have Gay main character's, love scenes etc. We now have strong female protagonist's, like Tomb Raider, Samus, (Lead Character's)Child of Light, Transistor, The walking dead 502 days, Heavenly sword, HellBlade, Echo from Killzone, Cortana from Halo, Starcraft:Heart of the Swarm.

In some of her video's she bring's up older designed games from a era where women were not playing games as much as young men. Games are more casual and universally accepted Now. From mobile, PC, console and so on.

She doesn't deserve all the threat's and what not. But some of those tweets farther down actually dissect her view on the medium.

She just want's attention and is using video games as an in to promote feminism. Which I'm fine with and agree there should be more equal rights for women.

But using video games that after watching some of her video's she seems clueless about interm's of what's been out in the past 7-8 years is insulting to gamer's and makes it look like she is just ignoring evidence that disproves some of her theories.

I think she's right in women get harassed more than men in gaming whether it be online, at a convention, or anything. A lot of people online and in games get harassed at a daily basis.

Most of the harassment and threat's she receives is towards more of feminist movement. itself not video games. Most of the awful tweets are from anit-feminist's, but some of them are from people calling her out on her outlook on the industry.

Just my 2 cent's on the situation.

foltzie1 · Jan 28, 2015

fijim said:
I have pretended not to play games, or largely downplayed how much I played games in some situations in order not to look like a huge nerd in front of certain crowds. So I guess I am not a real gamer.

If I gave a speech to a class in college, you can be damn sure I would not have divulged how much I played games, and if discussing playing games, I would likely downplay it.

You should see the looks I get when I admit to having been a fan of games, wresting, musical theatre, IndyCar, NASCAR, or ect in the past.

People judge all sorts of things.

Takuan · Jan 28, 2015

It's astonishing how dumb her haters are. They're only legitimizing her and encouraging more people to donate; she's fully aware of this, too. I don't think much of her work, but god damn do I respect her hustle.

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Anita Sarkeesian shows what one week of harassment directed at her looks like

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