Airola
Member
Bayonettas character designer is female
So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?
Bayonettas character designer is female
She has a nice "place" in the world. She fits and is believable. She uses her sex appeal as a means to get what she needs and wants. While she is obviously an object for people to gaze at she is also quite a bit more than that if you care to look beyond the fact that she is a dancer/strip and half naked. She has character beyond just the sexy appearance and seductive voice though it is somewhat hidden away and has to be pieced together, probably in multiple playthroughs to get different dialogues.
I am still not actually a fan of her default outfit's design but I admit I really like her character. Short list stolen from old post.
Bayonettas character designer is female
Hmmm, this is a tricky one, a lot of female characters use their sexuality but fáil, are villains or one note.
I guess from Resident Evil, of all places you have Ada Wong, fan favorite spy.
So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?
Judith
I am still not actually a fan of her default outfit's design but I admit I really like her character. Short list stolen from old post.
I took note of her because she was sexy and stayed with her because she is awesome. At the end of the day she knows she is dressed stupidly but she wants to so we just gotta deal with it. Though Estelle is also dressed stupidly, just not as sexually so non-sensical attire was not really an issue with this party. I'm not sure if this is a case for positive sexuality or a case of a good character despite sexuality. I'm starting to feel perhaps the latter but that makes me wonder if the former is even possible. If we must have sexualised characters then I'd like the Judith approach. Keep it almost entirely to a single character so I can choose to ignore her if I want, have that character be more than just sexualised doll and have the world react to her insensible dress.
- Outrageous outfit. Everyone including Judith acknowledges it is very revealing. It comes up repeatedly in skits and dialogue unlike in many games where stupid inappropriate clothing is generally just ignored.
- Her defense is that "it is easier to move in."
- A bit of context. She is essentially a Dragoon. When she rides her dragon she wears heavy full body armor. When she joins the party she is grounded and opts for something lighter and less hot/suffocating. There is also a price on her head, more specifically the armoured dragon rider. Leaving her armour behind was a good idea at the time regardless.
- You discover later that she was a bit of a rebel. She did things against her town's traditions, including but not limited to her dress standards. Again, this comes up in game dialogues slowly adding layers to her character.
- She knows she is sexy and playfully teases party members when she wants.
- She is more than just the sex appeal. She has a strong personality and is clever. She actually shares many traits with Yuri (protagonist) including her love of fighting and ability to think ahead and see whats coming or danger before most other party members.
- Her claim that she needs to remain light makes a little sense given that no other character can juggle enemies into the air like she can. The heels are still nonsense though.
Who needed aproval from a very known male
Who needed aproval from a very known male
Getting mad Chanur Saga vibes off these. Pretty much how it was done in those books.female
male
Kamiya? I thought that the only thing that Kamiya really wanted her to have were the glasses.
I have....honestly....never seen (or read the oppinions of) a single person who has played through Bayonetta 1 in it's entirety who views her portrayal as outright bad.
I wish the Remember Me dev hadn't taken out their romantic subplot with Nilin. It'd have been cool to have an intimate scene with a female lead and her male romantic interest (instead of the common reverse), but the devs had gotten feedback that even just seeing a woman point of view kissing a man was "icky" so they took that out. Sigh.
The Charr from Guild Wars are done well because both genders look like large angry cat people and female Charr don't have breasts, though that does make it harder to tell if it's a male or female Charr at a glance until they start talking since they are slightly different in their frame. The other alternative was to give female char 6 nipples like cats according to the devs, so maybe sticking with none is a good idea...unless that is your thing.
female
male
So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?
It's not that it's bad, it's that it lives in the space of being justified by the game narrative while simultaneously purposefully using her sexuality in a way that is meant for the male players and has no reason for happening in the game. If Bayo is just a woman who is sexual and comfortable with her body and uses it to her advantage when she can - that's fine - but if you are also getting gratuitous fan service stuff that is purely to sate a male audience it's somewhere between hypocritical and exploitative.
Not that I have that big of an issue with it - I just think it's a poor example and frustratingly the most common one.
You specifically said it was like that because it tittilated her designers. Unless you can prove she's a lesbian, you could at least have the humility of recognizing that argument is bunk.
Your other argument is Kamiya's involvement, and that's also been shot down by the above documentary. Again, the better person would admit their mistakes and recant, not move their goalposts.
For the record I have no clear opinion on Bayonetta's design either way as there are strong arguments on both sides. It makes me unconfortable when she strips down to finish off a boss, but it's hard to say if it makes me feel awkward as a male exposed to a sexually aggresive woman (which would be good) or as a feminist (which would be bad). And perhaps my opinion on this subject is not even all that relevant. I think female opinions on it are more interesting, and it's true that most sex-positive feminists I've heard on the matter tend to praise the whole package (not just her design in a vaccuum, but how she carries herself throughout the story).
Also, this is not the first time I've seen it implied that her designer did it either because she was forced or because she herself is sexist. I find these claims pretty ungenerous, and in particular when it's a male making them, utterly patronizing and condescending.
Honest question, because you were replying to a post that specifically mentioned people that had completed it: have you?
Me and a friend played it together, alternating between deaths. I don't remember everything clearly because I wasn't always playing, but we did finish it.
Super good example, actually. I feel bad for not having thought of her earlier.
Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.
[image]
Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.
But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.
Chloe from Uncharted 2
Of course it can but my guess is that Mari isn't as offended.
It isn't this black or white situation as many would like to paint it.
It really sounds like the only not sexist designs are very similar or the exact same.
Bayonetta sexual nature works because the game doesn't take it self super serious and the over the top nature fits. If the game was trying to tell a super serious story it wouldn't fit.
I don't see the problem in that case. If the game world created fits the design what sighs issue?.
But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.
It's not that it's bad, it's that it lives in the space of being justified by the game narrative while simultaneously purposefully using her sexuality in a way that is meant for the male players and has no reason for happening in the game. If Bayo is just a woman who is sexual and comfortable with her body and uses it to her advantage when she can - that's fine - but if you are also getting gratuitous fan service stuff that is purely to sate a male audience it's somewhere between hypocritical and exploitativek.
Not that I have that big of an issue with it - I just think it's a poor example and frustratingly the most common one.
Gotcha.She can't romance anyone else. That man's the only character who shows interest in her.
I'm halfway convinced that the gay response is a lie on her part.
Oh? I thought trans women generally liked Poison. I know nothing about the character though, so I couldn't say why or why not.As a trans women I find poison to be absolutely terrible.
I tend to agree, yeah. That's just eye-rolling.Honestly I just don't buy Bayonetta. Sure, they try to justify it with her intentionally using her sexuality, but to me that doesn't justify intentionally using it for the player as well. I mean, they can have her exploiting her sexuality within the context of the game world without zooming in on her crotch.
It reminds me of when somebody tries to parody something by just doing what they are parodying and being self referential about it. At that point it's not parody but simply doing the thing.
You better not be talking shit about Claudia Black right now!But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.
But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.
You specifically said it was like that because it tittilated her designers. Unless you can prove she's a lesbian, you could at least have the humility of recognizing that argument is bunk.
Your other argument is Kamiya's involvement, and that's also been shot down by the above documentary. Again, the better person would admit their mistakes and recant, not move their goalposts.
Honestly I just don't buy Bayonetta. Sure, they try to justify it with her intentionally using her sexuality, but to me that doesn't justify intentionally using it for the player as well. I mean, they can have her exploiting her sexuality within the context of the game world without zooming in on her crotch.
I tend to agree, yeah. That's just eye-rolling
No thanks?People seem to be asking for Bayonetta gifs
People seem to be asking for Bayonetta gifs
Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.
Just to be clear, if people who I replied to and who replied to me would like to know:
-I'm not into Bayonetta games. My brain isn't capable of following the action and learning the required mechanics for it. I dislike the gameplay very very much.
-I think that whole sexual aspect in those games works for them.
-The crotch shot in Bayonetta 2 is funny. I wouldn't ever want it to be taken away from the game. That type of over-the-top uses of sexual imagery are in my opinion very creative in its own way.
-So, should I criticize the game, it wouldn't be at all about the sexual things. It would be the gameplay.
-That said, I still wouldn't say the sexual aspect of the game is any more innocent or more positive or much less sexist than in other games. It can be more fun though, but what I or any other person would think of what fun is doesn't make any difference in what is sexist and what's not.
So use my inexperience and inability with the Bayonetta games as you wish and make your conclusions for better or worse.
As posted earlier:Now the camera work, that's a different story. Even if her design is fine, how the game chooses to portray her can completely subvert her as a character. I personally feel it manages to back away before leaping off a cliff, but other people can reasonably disagree.
If Bayonetta is understood to be a story about a woman confidently open about her sexuality told from the perspective of that woman (as in, she's the main character and focus of the narrative, not literally through her eyes) then it makes sense that the camera also supports that narrative, doesn't it? Especially considering she seems to have an almost fourth-wall-breaking playful relationship with the camera. I can't think of that many titillating shots where she isn't also posing in some way. The first one I can think of is the prologue of Bayonetta 2 where the camera actually zooms from her crotch to reveal a fight scene.
I obviously don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single Bayonetta camera angle, but I don't remember noticing that trend. At least not for situations in which Bayonetta wouldn't indulge in it.
I never got the arguments of like "Oh the camera zooms in on Bayonetta pervily so it can't be empowering or positive".
Isn't the whole point that Bayonetta basically owns the camera as much as she owns herself? Yes, it is moving outside of her control, but she basically breaks the fourth wall constantly and the game establishes that she basically subconscious wills the camera to be where she wants it to be, what with the constant posing, and even the camera flashes.
As posted earlier:
But to add more: This separation between what the character is trying to convey through her own actions, dialogue, etc. and what the camera is trying to convey really doesn't seem as clear to me as some people make it out to be. After all, we are all used to certain things like a character's dominance over others, their relative height, disorientation or whatever being either expressed or further emphasized through effective use of camera angles and direction. These characters are then not "robbed" by the camera of the respective traits being highlighted, are they? Obviously the camera drawing attention to them might not align with the affected character's own desires and thus possibly rob them of some agency, but this isn't at all the case in Bayonetta. As Cloyster said, she even seems to enjoy the camera.
So yeah, it's a bad argument. But we hear this line of argument pretty often. "Oh, don't you see, narratively, it makes perfect sense why she would be all but naked! In fact, it's actually a way of making her stronger!" We've most recently had this controversy with Quiet who needs to wear pantyhose and a makeshift bra, otherwise how can she breathe? If you ask me, I would prefer devs to be upfront and honest about it, that they just like showing off hot women. It's atleast more honest that way.
I'm curious to try and dig into what exactly you consider to be "sexist". Female character that don't make choices, or grow or do interesting unique things or have agency, just wear scantily clad outfits, and given the most cliche body proportions, voice clips when hurt that sound like orgasms, and are just there to be sexually objectified would be considered sexist.
But how is a character who does none of these things, and completely enjoys and owns her sexuality, even if she is "oogled" be sexist?
Does someone being attracted to Bayonetta by default make it sexist?
I tried to explain my views in my first post to this thread. Not that it necessarily is about sexism, but still.
The way I see it is that games are programs and the characters aren't people with their own choices, but things deliberately created by persons to evoke one feeling or another in players. Bayonetta does these "sexy" things because it was created to. It's literally an object to oogle at.
Sure, one could say the other character has more depth and meaning in its design (design meaning the whole package including the visuals and what the character has been designed to do), but the heart of the matter is still quite the same at its core.
No.
Also, one can be attracted to something created with sexist undertones without actually being sexist him-/herself. Being attracted isn't a choice. Creating an attractive object is.
However, I repeat, I don't hold this against the games. It's not an issue I have with other games either.
The way I see it is that games are programs and the characters aren't people with their own choices, but things deliberately created by persons to evoke one feeling or another in players. Bayonetta does these "sexy" things because it was created to. It's literally an object to oogle at.
Mass Effect is sooo damn guilty of this, except for the Krogans funnily enough.
Hell, didn't one of the designers said some bullshit about never seeing females of Garrus' species precisely cause they couldn't think of a way to not make them look like something out of this chart?
So, what I'm reading into this is that you believe an attractive or sexually active female character can't be made without being sexist by default?
Not necessarily true, Ciri does have a relationship with a girl in the Witcher novels saga.She can't romance anyone else. That man's the only character who shows interest in her.
I'm halfway convinced that the gay response is a lie on her part.