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[Airola]

Bayonettas character designer is female

So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?

 

[Mephala]

I am forever bringing up two characters in these topics.

Velvet Velour aka VV

She has a nice "place" in the world. She fits and is believable. She uses her sex appeal as a means to get what she needs and wants. While she is obviously an object for people to gaze at she is also quite a bit more than that if you care to look beyond the fact that she is a dancer/strip and half naked. She has character beyond just the sexy appearance and seductive voice though it is somewhat hidden away and has to be pieced together, probably in multiple playthroughs to get different dialogues.

Judith

I am still not actually a fan of her default outfit's design but I admit I really like her character. Short list stolen from old post.

• Outrageous outfit. Everyone including Judith acknowledges it is very revealing. It comes up repeatedly in skits and dialogue unlike in many games where stupid inappropriate clothing is generally just ignored.
• Her defense is that "it is easier to move in."
• A bit of context. She is essentially a Dragoon. When she rides her dragon she wears heavy full body armor. When she joins the party she is grounded and opts for something lighter and less hot/suffocating. There is also a price on her head, more specifically the armoured dragon rider. Leaving her armour behind was a good idea at the time regardless.
• You discover later that she was a bit of a rebel. She did things against her town's traditions, including but not limited to her dress standards. Again, this comes up in game dialogues slowly adding layers to her character.
• She knows she is sexy and playfully teases party members when she wants.
• She is more than just the sex appeal. She has a strong personality and is clever. She actually shares many traits with Yuri (protagonist) including her love of fighting and ability to think ahead and see whats coming or danger before most other party members.
• Her claim that she needs to remain light makes a little sense given that no other character can juggle enemies into the air like she can. The heels are still nonsense though.

I took note of her because she was sexy and stayed with her because she is awesome. At the end of the day she knows she is dressed stupidly but she wants to so we just gotta deal with it. Though Estelle is also dressed stupidly, just not as sexually so non-sensical attire was not really an issue with this party. I'm not sure if this is a case for positive sexuality or a case of a good character despite sexuality. I'm starting to feel perhaps the latter but that makes me wonder if the former is even possible. If we must have sexualised characters then I'd like the Judith approach. Keep it almost entirely to a single character so I can choose to ignore her if I want, have that character be more than just sexualised doll and have the world react to her insensible dress.

 

[Platy]

Bayonettas character designer is female

Who needed aproval from a very known male

 

[AdaWong]

Hmmm, this is a tricky one, a lot of female characters use their sexuality but fáil, are villains or one note.
I guess from Resident Evil, of all places you have Ada Wong, fan favorite spy.

Yes. Yes. Yes.


How else would Leon unreluctantly give Ada those virus samples?!

 

[Mik317]

So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?

Of course it can but my guess is that Mari isn't as offended.

It isn't this black or white situation as many would like to paint it.

It really sounds like the only not sexist designs are very similar or the exact same.

Bayonetta sexual nature works because the game doesn't take it self super serious and the over the top nature fits. If the game was trying to tell a super serious story it wouldn't fit.

I don't see the problem in that case. If the game world created fits the design what sighs issue?.

 

[Steel]

Judith

I am still not actually a fan of her default outfit's design but I admit I really like her character. Short list stolen from old post.

• Outrageous outfit. Everyone including Judith acknowledges it is very revealing. It comes up repeatedly in skits and dialogue unlike in many games where stupid inappropriate clothing is generally just ignored.
• Her defense is that "it is easier to move in."
• A bit of context. She is essentially a Dragoon. When she rides her dragon she wears heavy full body armor. When she joins the party she is grounded and opts for something lighter and less hot/suffocating. There is also a price on her head, more specifically the armoured dragon rider. Leaving her armour behind was a good idea at the time regardless.
• You discover later that she was a bit of a rebel. She did things against her town's traditions, including but not limited to her dress standards. Again, this comes up in game dialogues slowly adding layers to her character.
• She knows she is sexy and playfully teases party members when she wants.
• She is more than just the sex appeal. She has a strong personality and is clever. She actually shares many traits with Yuri (protagonist) including her love of fighting and ability to think ahead and see whats coming or danger before most other party members.
• Her claim that she needs to remain light makes a little sense given that no other character can juggle enemies into the air like she can. The heels are still nonsense though.

I took note of her because she was sexy and stayed with her because she is awesome. At the end of the day she knows she is dressed stupidly but she wants to so we just gotta deal with it. Though Estelle is also dressed stupidly, just not as sexually so non-sensical attire was not really an issue with this party. I'm not sure if this is a case for positive sexuality or a case of a good character despite sexuality. I'm starting to feel perhaps the latter but that makes me wonder if the former is even possible. If we must have sexualised characters then I'd like the Judith approach. Keep it almost entirely to a single character so I can choose to ignore her if I want, have that character be more than just sexualised doll and have the world react to her insensible dress.

Judith is honestly a good character personality-wise, but her outfit and the excuse for it are pure face palm. The characters themselves do acknowledge that it's kind of ridiculous in some conversations, then it's ignored for the most part. It doesn't seem at all necessary for her character.

Completely agree with VV though. She has proper context.

 

[Mik317]

Who needed aproval from a very known male

this is bullshit. It obviously can't be that she herself finds it appealing. Naw. She was obviously forced to do it

 

[Astarte]

Who needed aproval from a very known male

Kamiya? I thought that the only thing that Kamiya really wanted her to have were the glasses.

 

[NastyBook]

female

male

Getting mad Chanur Saga vibes off these. Pretty much how it was done in those books.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Honestly I just don't buy Bayonetta. Sure, they try to justify it with her intentionally using her sexuality, but to me that doesn't justify intentionally using it for the player as well. I mean, they can have her exploiting her sexuality within the context of the game world without zooming in on her crotch.

It reminds me of when somebody tries to parody something by just doing what they are parodying and being self referential about it. At that point it's not parody but simply doing the thing.

 

[TheAssist]

just wanted to contribute

 

[Palculator]

Kamiya? I thought that the only thing that Kamiya really wanted her to have were the glasses.

She says in the making of documentary included in the art book that she basically ignored his input and drew designs based on religious motifs she had been researching for a while, or something among those lines (been a while.)

Source:

Not that I think a designer's gender matters too much, but since the topic of Bayonetta production details specifically came up I might as well post some actual facts.

 

[Orniletter]

I have....honestly....never seen (or read the oppinions of) a single person who has played through Bayonetta 1 in it's entirety who views her portrayal as outright bad.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I have....honestly....never seen (or read the oppinions of) a single person who has played through Bayonetta 1 in it's entirety who views her portrayal as outright bad.

It's not that it's bad, it's that it lives in the space of being justified by the game narrative while simultaneously purposefully using her sexuality in a way that is meant for the male players and has no reason for happening in the game. If Bayo is just a woman who is sexual and comfortable with her body and uses it to her advantage when she can - that's fine - but if you are also getting gratuitous fan service stuff that is purely to sate a male audience it's somewhere between hypocritical and exploitative.

Not that I have that big of an issue with it - I just think it's a poor example and frustratingly the most common one.

 

[Taruranto]

I always found Stiletto/Sera character arc in Anachronox very interesting, although her outfit is ridiculous and unpractical when it comes to actual combat.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I wish the Remember Me dev hadn't taken out their romantic subplot with Nilin. It'd have been cool to have an intimate scene with a female lead and her male romantic interest (instead of the common reverse), but the devs had gotten feedback that even just seeing a woman point of view kissing a man was "icky" so they took that out. Sigh.

What, really? Ugh. I want to say that Mass Effect had you in that same situation, but then I remember you actually have to choose to play a female Shepard AND romance the male character, when there is a female romance option as well. It just so happens that I liked Kaidan much more than Liara at that point so I went for it.

The Charr from Guild Wars are done well because both genders look like large angry cat people and female Charr don't have breasts, though that does make it harder to tell if it's a male or female Charr at a glance until they start talking since they are slightly different in their frame. The other alternative was to give female char 6 nipples like cats according to the devs, so maybe sticking with none is a good idea...unless that is your thing.

female

male

Guild Wars 2 handles a lot of sex and gender-related stuff really well, on account of having a large percentage of the chief designers being female. There are gay couples both in the background, in quests and as main characters and no fuss is ever made of it. Hell, season 1 finale ended in a

Spoiler

smooch of victory from such a couple, and it was super tender after what happened.

One of the races, the sylvary, have sexual dimorphism only as consequence of being (in-story) made out of plant matter to physically resemble humans. Therefore, gender is a purely aesthetic attribute for them, which means half of their couples are same-sex.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So it can't be sexist or negative if a female designed it?

You specifically said it was like that because it tittilated her designers. Unless you can prove she's a lesbian, you could at least have the humility of recognizing that argument is bunk.

Your other argument is Kamiya's involvement, and that's also been shot down by the above documentary. Again, the better person would admit their mistakes and recant, not move their goalposts.

For the record I have no clear opinion on Bayonetta's design either way as there are strong arguments on both sides. It makes me unconfortable when she strips down to finish off a boss, but it's hard to say if it makes me feel awkward as a male exposed to a sexually aggresive woman (which would be good) or as a feminist (which would be bad). And perhaps my opinion on this subject is not even all that relevant. I think female opinions on it are more interesting, and it's true that most sex-positive feminists I've heard on the matter tend to praise the whole package (not just her design in a vaccuum, but how she carries herself throughout the story).

Also, this is not the first time I've seen it implied that her designer did it either because she was forced or because she herself is sexist. I find these claims pretty ungenerous, and in particular when it's a male making them, utterly patronizing and condescending.

It's not that it's bad, it's that it lives in the space of being justified by the game narrative while simultaneously purposefully using her sexuality in a way that is meant for the male players and has no reason for happening in the game. If Bayo is just a woman who is sexual and comfortable with her body and uses it to her advantage when she can - that's fine - but if you are also getting gratuitous fan service stuff that is purely to sate a male audience it's somewhere between hypocritical and exploitative.

Not that I have that big of an issue with it - I just think it's a poor example and frustratingly the most common one.

Honest question, because you were replying to a post that specifically mentioned people that had completed it: have you?

 

[ForsakenLotus]

You specifically said it was like that because it tittilated her designers. Unless you can prove she's a lesbian, you could at least have the humility of recognizing that argument is bunk.

Your other argument is Kamiya's involvement, and that's also been shot down by the above documentary. Again, the better person would admit their mistakes and recant, not move their goalposts.

For the record I have no clear opinion on Bayonetta's design either way as there are strong arguments on both sides. It makes me unconfortable when she strips down to finish off a boss, but it's hard to say if it makes me feel awkward as a male exposed to a sexually aggresive woman (which would be good) or as a feminist (which would be bad). And perhaps my opinion on this subject is not even all that relevant. I think female opinions on it are more interesting, and it's true that most sex-positive feminists I've heard on the matter tend to praise the whole package (not just her design in a vaccuum, but how she carries herself throughout the story).

Also, this is not the first time I've seen it implied that her designer did it either because she was forced or because she herself is sexist. I find these claims pretty ungenerous, and in particular when it's a male making them, utterly patronizing and condescending.



Honest question, because you were replying to a post that specifically mentioned people that had completed it: have you?

Me and a friend played it together, alternating between deaths. I don't remember everything clearly because I wasn't always playing, but we did finish it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Me and a friend played it together, alternating between deaths. I don't remember everything clearly because I wasn't always playing, but we did finish it.

Fair enough. I was asking because I noticed that, on both Bayonetta 1 and 2, fanservice was much reduced after the first few chapters. It's as if they used it to get guys to play the game, but then were confident enough that the game's own merits were enough to keep them hooked. Many people seem to judge the game based on that first impression (the most embarrassing sequence in each game is each one's respective intro) and extrapolated it to be the tone for the rest of the game (which I actually can't blame them for).

 

[Astral Dog]

Bayonetta (as a character, not the design thats still awesome) was almost ruined on the sequel anyways, most arguments for her character come from the first game for good reason.

 

[cerulily]

Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.

 

[Palculator]

Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.

Super good example, actually. I feel bad for not having thought of her earlier.

 

[PSqueak]

[image]

Mass Effect is sooo damn guilty of this, except for the Krogans funnily enough.

Hell, didn't one of the designers said some bullshit about never seeing females of Garrus' species precisely cause they couldn't think of a way to not make them look like something out of this chart?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.

Yep. She's also an unapologetic monster, but hey.

 

[spazchicken]

Chloe from Uncharted 2

But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.

 

[Airola]

Of course it can but my guess is that Mari isn't as offended.

It isn't this black or white situation as many would like to paint it.

It really sounds like the only not sexist designs are very similar or the exact same.

Bayonetta sexual nature works because the game doesn't take it self super serious and the over the top nature fits. If the game was trying to tell a super serious story it wouldn't fit.

I don't see the problem in that case. If the game world created fits the design what sighs issue?.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm sure it fits in the game and I have no problem whatsoever with that character, nor with how sexuality is portrayed in those games. Personally I don't really much care if a game is sexist or or whatever "-ism" someone can label a game into. I basically agree if some feminists call out games for these things. It is what it is and there is no need to sugar-coat it, but I don't think it's that serious of an issue.

It's just that to my eyes it doesn't do much difference if a game character is "empowered" in its sexuality. The heart of the matter is still the same - it's there to titillate people.

What comes to a woman designing a "sexual" character, I think it's basically the same as women making the costumes and make-up in porn films, which pretty much is how it's usually done in, at least, mainstream pornography. I'm sure most of the women working on them don't really get offended by what they do, but that doesn't remove the fact that the end product is there to give sexual arousal and titillation for the - usually male, sometimes female - audience, and it usually is sexist to at least some degree.

I mean, you can be a woman and not get offended by sexist things - even if that thing is as sexist as it can be. And sure, some women could even view sexist things as positive things. As you said, it's not a black or white issue.

I just want to point out that too much of a "romanticizing" the "healthy sexuality" aspect of Bayonetta or some other game might make people ignore issues that might be problematic - or at least it widens the gap between the 'for' and 'anti' people arguing about it.


EDIT:
also, the visual designer of the character usually is not the one who decides what that character actually does in the game

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.

Claudia Black rocks. Absolutely love her voice, it has a very distinct tone to it.

 

[Pompadour]

It's not that it's bad, it's that it lives in the space of being justified by the game narrative while simultaneously purposefully using her sexuality in a way that is meant for the male players and has no reason for happening in the game. If Bayo is just a woman who is sexual and comfortable with her body and uses it to her advantage when she can - that's fine - but if you are also getting gratuitous fan service stuff that is purely to sate a male audience it's somewhere between hypocritical and exploitativek.

Not that I have that big of an issue with it - I just think it's a poor example and frustratingly the most common one.

Bayonetta can be argued as designed deliberately to tittilate but after playing the game it seems mostly for comedic effect due to how campy it is. Honestly, if I were to describe Bayonetta the game I'd say "It's Devil May Cry but you play as a drag queen."

 

[Morrigan Stark]

She can't romance anyone else. That man's the only character who shows interest in her.

I'm halfway convinced that the gay response is a lie on her part.

Gotcha.

As a trans women I find poison to be absolutely terrible.

Oh? I thought trans women generally liked Poison. I know nothing about the character though, so I couldn't say why or why not.

Honestly I just don't buy Bayonetta. Sure, they try to justify it with her intentionally using her sexuality, but to me that doesn't justify intentionally using it for the player as well. I mean, they can have her exploiting her sexuality within the context of the game world without zooming in on her crotch.

It reminds me of when somebody tries to parody something by just doing what they are parodying and being self referential about it. At that point it's not parody but simply doing the thing.

I tend to agree, yeah. That's just eye-rolling.

But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.

You better not be talking shit about Claudia Black right now!

 

[RedRum]

But she had the voice of a 50 year old smoker.

She had a terrible voice, lol.

 

[Airola]

You specifically said it was like that because it tittilated her designers. Unless you can prove she's a lesbian, you could at least have the humility of recognizing that argument is bunk.

A woman doesn't have to be a lesbian to get titillated by another female character, but yeah, I guess your point is very valid in that the person who creates an image which is probably deemed sexy or even sexist by many, doesn't have to be actually titillated by it at all. So I guess it would've been better if I had left that part out completely.

Or at least I should've written "and/or" but that's true that 1. I didn't research who actually visually designed the character before writing and 2. it didn't even come to my mind it was a woman who designed it.

And that number 2 probably makes me a sexist, so there's that too

Your other argument is Kamiya's involvement, and that's also been shot down by the above documentary. Again, the better person would admit their mistakes and recant, not move their goalposts.

It's not all about the physical design of the character. It's also about what that character is supposed to do in the game. If that didn't come from Kamiya, then I'm sorry and I was wrong in putting his name in that context.

 

[Palculator]

Honestly I just don't buy Bayonetta. Sure, they try to justify it with her intentionally using her sexuality, but to me that doesn't justify intentionally using it for the player as well. I mean, they can have her exploiting her sexuality within the context of the game world without zooming in on her crotch.

I tend to agree, yeah. That's just eye-rolling

If Bayonetta is understood to be a story about a woman confidently open about her sexuality told from the perspective of that woman (as in, she's the main character and focus of the narrative, not literally through her eyes) then it makes sense that the camera also supports that narrative, doesn't it? Especially considering she seems to have an almost fourth-wall-breaking playful relationship with the camera. I can't think of that many titillating shots where she isn't also posing in some way. The first one I can think of is the prologue of Bayonetta 2 where the camera actually zooms from her crotch to reveal a fight scene.

I obviously don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single Bayonetta camera angle, but I don't remember noticing that trend. At least not for situations in which Bayonetta wouldn't indulge in it.

 

[Astral Dog]

People seem to be asking for Bayonetta gifs

 

[Morrigan Stark]

People seem to be asking for Bayonetta gifs

No thanks?

 

[Cloyster]

I never got the arguments of like "Oh the camera zooms in on Bayonetta pervily so it can't be empowering or positive".

Isn't the whole point that Bayonetta basically owns the camera as much as she owns herself? Yes, it is moving outside of her control, but she basically breaks the fourth wall constantly and the game establishes that she basically subconscious wills the camera to be where she wants it to be, what with the constant posing, and even the camera flashes.

 

[John Kowalski]

i wish we weren't so stuck in this dichotomy of strength and weakness, but i guess that comes with the medium

 

[Airola]

Just to be clear, if people who I replied to and who replied to me would like to know:

-I'm not into Bayonetta games. My brain isn't capable of following the action and learning the required mechanics for it. I dislike the gameplay very very much.
-I think that whole sexual aspect in those games works for them.
-The crotch shot in Bayonetta 2 is funny. I wouldn't ever want it to be taken away from the game. That type of over-the-top uses of sexual imagery are in my opinion very creative in its own way.
-So, should I criticize the game, it wouldn't be at all about the sexual things. It would be the gameplay.
-That said, I still wouldn't say the sexual aspect of the game is any more innocent or more positive or much less sexist than in other games. It can be more fun though, but what I or any other person would think of what fun is doesn't make any difference in what is sexist and what's not.


So use my inexperience and inability with the Bayonetta games as you wish and make your conclusions for better or worse.

 

[TAJ]

People seem to be asking for Bayonetta gifs

You're missing the one where the camera almost flies into her vagina.

 

[Ludger Kresnik]

Surprised no one mentioned Zero from Drakengard 3. She OWNS her sexuality more than any single character i have ever seen. Even more-so than Bayonetta.

I could write approximately six essays on sexuality in Drakengard 3. Zero is a sexual character, but I really can't remember any instances of objectification in the game beyond just her somewhat revealing outfit.

The guys in the game are very literally treated like sex objects, though. Dito in particular practically embodies the term.

DOD3 has sex and sexuality at the very core of its being, but it's handled in a way that's both really blunt and kinda subtle. This is really reflected in Zero, who has a bunch of sex with a bunch of dudes but it's really just kinda whatever.

 

[Cloyster]

Just to be clear, if people who I replied to and who replied to me would like to know:

-I'm not into Bayonetta games. My brain isn't capable of following the action and learning the required mechanics for it. I dislike the gameplay very very much.
-I think that whole sexual aspect in those games works for them.
-The crotch shot in Bayonetta 2 is funny. I wouldn't ever want it to be taken away from the game. That type of over-the-top uses of sexual imagery are in my opinion very creative in its own way.
-So, should I criticize the game, it wouldn't be at all about the sexual things. It would be the gameplay.
-That said, I still wouldn't say the sexual aspect of the game is any more innocent or more positive or much less sexist than in other games. It can be more fun though, but what I or any other person would think of what fun is doesn't make any difference in what is sexist and what's not.


So use my inexperience and inability with the Bayonetta games as you wish and make your conclusions for better or worse.

I'm curious to try and dig into what exactly you consider to be "sexist". Female character that don't make choices, or grow or do interesting unique things or have agency, just wear scantily clad outfits, and given the most cliche body proportions, voice clips when hurt that sound like orgasms, and are just there to be sexually objectified would be considered sexist.

But how is a character who does none of these things, and completely enjoys and owns her sexuality, even if she is "oogled" be sexist?

Does someone being attracted to Bayonetta by default make it sexist?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think Bayonetta's design is fine. Japan isn't where we are with feminism and it's not a linear scale across cultures. They oppress sexuality, especially in older women, and a stiletto-wearing older woman that owns her sexuality can be a very pronounced statement for feminism.

Now the camera work, that's a different story. Even if her design is fine, how the game chooses to portray her can completely subvert her as a character. I personally feel it manages to back away before leaping off a cliff, but other people can reasonably disagree.

 

[Palculator]

Now the camera work, that's a different story. Even if her design is fine, how the game chooses to portray her can completely subvert her as a character. I personally feel it manages to back away before leaping off a cliff, but other people can reasonably disagree.

As posted earlier:

If Bayonetta is understood to be a story about a woman confidently open about her sexuality told from the perspective of that woman (as in, she's the main character and focus of the narrative, not literally through her eyes) then it makes sense that the camera also supports that narrative, doesn't it? Especially considering she seems to have an almost fourth-wall-breaking playful relationship with the camera. I can't think of that many titillating shots where she isn't also posing in some way. The first one I can think of is the prologue of Bayonetta 2 where the camera actually zooms from her crotch to reveal a fight scene.

I obviously don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single Bayonetta camera angle, but I don't remember noticing that trend. At least not for situations in which Bayonetta wouldn't indulge in it.

I never got the arguments of like "Oh the camera zooms in on Bayonetta pervily so it can't be empowering or positive".

Isn't the whole point that Bayonetta basically owns the camera as much as she owns herself? Yes, it is moving outside of her control, but she basically breaks the fourth wall constantly and the game establishes that she basically subconscious wills the camera to be where she wants it to be, what with the constant posing, and even the camera flashes.

But to add more: This separation between what the character is trying to convey through her own actions, dialogue, etc. and what the camera is trying to convey really doesn't seem as clear to me as some people make it out to be. After all, we are all used to certain things like a character's dominance over others, their relative height, disorientation or whatever being either expressed or further emphasized through effective use of camera angles and direction. These characters are then not "robbed" by the camera of the respective traits being highlighted, are they? Obviously the camera drawing attention to them might not align with the affected character's own desires and thus possibly rob them of some agency, but this isn't at all the case in Bayonetta. As Cloyster said, she even seems to enjoy the camera.

 

[Cloyster]

As posted earlier:



But to add more: This separation between what the character is trying to convey through her own actions, dialogue, etc. and what the camera is trying to convey really doesn't seem as clear to me as some people make it out to be. After all, we are all used to certain things like a character's dominance over others, their relative height, disorientation or whatever being either expressed or further emphasized through effective use of camera angles and direction. These characters are then not "robbed" by the camera of the respective traits being highlighted, are they? Obviously the camera drawing attention to them might not align with the affected character's own desires and thus possibly rob them of some agency, but this isn't at all the case in Bayonetta. As Cloyster said, she even seems to enjoy the camera.

I like to think of it as a cute little demon holding a camera that Bayonetta has made a pact with to follow her around.

 

[Tye The Czar]

I think we can't go into a thread like this without keeping this comic in mind.

So yeah, it's a bad argument. But we hear this line of argument pretty often. "Oh, don't you see, narratively, it makes perfect sense why she would be all but naked! In fact, it's actually a way of making her stronger!" We've most recently had this controversy with Quiet who needs to wear pantyhose and a makeshift bra, otherwise how can she breathe? If you ask me, I would prefer devs to be upfront and honest about it, that they just like showing off hot women. It's atleast more honest that way.

Absolutely. I can give Senran Kagura a pass because Director is openly honest(and surprisingly passionate) about the boobs that help define the series.

I'm especially for media with sexiness that don't take themselves seriously(as shown above). Adding in gratuitous breasts or butt shots into serious moments absolutely kills them for me *cough*Cross Ange*cough*.

So yeah. Bayonetta. She's awesome because of how much thought was put into how her looks, animation and fanservice meshed with her personality. And Moviebob seemed to agree as well.

 

[Airola]

I'm curious to try and dig into what exactly you consider to be "sexist". Female character that don't make choices, or grow or do interesting unique things or have agency, just wear scantily clad outfits, and given the most cliche body proportions, voice clips when hurt that sound like orgasms, and are just there to be sexually objectified would be considered sexist.

But how is a character who does none of these things, and completely enjoys and owns her sexuality, even if she is "oogled" be sexist?

I tried to explain my views in my first post to this thread. Not that it necessarily is about sexism, but still.

The way I see it is that games are programs and the characters aren't people with their own choices, but things deliberately created by persons to evoke one feeling or another in players. Bayonetta does these "sexy" things because it was created to. It's literally an object to oogle at.

Sure, one could say the other character has more depth and meaning in its design (design meaning the whole package including the visuals and what the character has been designed to do), but the heart of the matter is still quite the same at its core.

Does someone being attracted to Bayonetta by default make it sexist?

No.

Also, one can be attracted to something created with sexist undertones without actually being sexist him-/herself. Being attracted isn't a choice. Creating an attractive object is.


However, I repeat, I don't hold this against the games. It's not an issue I have with other games either.

 

[Cloyster]

I tried to explain my views in my first post to this thread. Not that it necessarily is about sexism, but still.

The way I see it is that games are programs and the characters aren't people with their own choices, but things deliberately created by persons to evoke one feeling or another in players. Bayonetta does these "sexy" things because it was created to. It's literally an object to oogle at.

Sure, one could say the other character has more depth and meaning in its design (design meaning the whole package including the visuals and what the character has been designed to do), but the heart of the matter is still quite the same at its core.




No.

Also, one can be attracted to something created with sexist undertones without actually being sexist him-/herself. Being attracted isn't a choice. Creating an attractive object is.


However, I repeat, I don't hold this against the games. It's not an issue I have with other games either.

So, what I'm reading into this is that you believe an attractive or sexually active female character can't be made without being sexist by default?

 

[Keasar]

The way I see it is that games are programs and the characters aren't people with their own choices, but things deliberately created by persons to evoke one feeling or another in players. Bayonetta does these "sexy" things because it was created to. It's literally an object to oogle at.

But if the argument that a character does something because its creator deemed it should do so and therefore it doesn't count, doesn't that basically make every single character that has ever existed completely moot?

Ellie from Borderlands isn't proud of her body, that was decided by her writers. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil isn't self-reliant and strong, her designers made her that. Any character is by that argument then completely pointless.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Mass Effect is sooo damn guilty of this, except for the Krogans funnily enough.

Hell, didn't one of the designers said some bullshit about never seeing females of Garrus' species precisely cause they couldn't think of a way to not make them look like something out of this chart?

Salarian

Krogan

Turian

The only one mostly guilty of this is the turian, who has an overly-human figure, but otherwise still sure as hell looks like a cat-lizard-bird person. Unless you want to post quarians, but both male and female are just humans without pupils because Mass Effect 3. The asari don't have male and female, but they're also really lame and somebody thought it was a good idea to deliberately make an alien race that was the "human, but blue/ green" scifi cliche.

 

[Airola]

So, what I'm reading into this is that you believe an attractive or sexually active female character can't be made without being sexist by default?

No, either I'm bad at writing what I mean or you didn't understand it. Could be the former.


Let me try again.

I meant that it's all about how it's done, and especially in video games where the whole characters are created from zero, every single choice in what to show is very deliberate and I argued that one really can't explain everything by what the character's created motives supposedly are. There is no Bayonetta actually choosing to have a sexy pose. It's all what the creators think is a sexy pose and what it looks like.

So in that sense it's hard to have a sexually active character in a video game and being totally non-sexist. Especially in Bayonetta's case there is this thought that a sexually empowered female is one who wants to dress up in tight clothes, wants to show off her curves, wants to pose for camera and wants to bring a dominant and teasing edge to what she does. None of that is really needed to show someone is ok with his or her sexuality and empowered by it. None of that is necessarily sexist by default either though.

But anyways, it's not impossible to have a sexually active character, female or male, in video games and be totally non-sexist with it.

It's just pretty hard.

 

[Karl Hawk]

She can't romance anyone else. That man's the only character who shows interest in her.

I'm halfway convinced that the gay response is a lie on her part.

Not necessarily true, Ciri does have a relationship with a girl in the Witcher novels saga.

I won't spoil it, so I'll just say it doesn't end happily ever after.