Stallion Dan
Member
That RE4 dress is just stupid, so no.
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Positive depictions of sexuality in game characters
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
That RE4 dress is just stupid, so no.
Her design was pretty good in RE6, although she had a terrible character arc in that game.
I didn't specific exclude it, but more because it's implicit in the argument. Your personal taste and proclivities have nothing to do with whether a story is using sexuality to characterize. You can find Chloe completely unattractive because your a gay male, for example, and respect that she finds power in her opinion of her attractiveness and will to be sexual, making it a positive depiction of sexuality that does not appeal to you whatsoever.
Basically, if your idea of positive sexual depiction is centered around how well the character is servicing you, rather than how a sexuality is used to characterize them as a person, you've completely missed the point.
A more clear explanation of the topic might be "in what instances do you think sexually depicted characters feel natural and called for, instead of just being that way for the mere sake of it"
Garrett Hawke
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Hm
shit
all of the examples I think of, like the princess from the Prince of Persia games are really more examples of handling romance well
Handling sexuality well?
shit
all of the examples I think of, like the princess from the Prince of Persia games are really more examples of handling romance well
Handling sexuality well?
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Most video games don't have a story that is worth much, and neither males or females serve as anything more than being an excuse for the (usual) action set pieces. Most video-games revolve around killing, deducing or destroying. The stories we see in games are symptom of gaming still being where it is.
We don't know how to make Lost in Translation, as a game yet.
But like in all previous of these threads we end up at the same exit. Women are needed to lead development teams and get their visions out. It will have to be a woman who designs the "sex and the city" or "desperate housewives" for women. Whatever that game / story looks like.
The cruel truth is that society is primed this way because sex is on the subconscious mind almost constantly. It's one of the very few driving vehicles that can totally manipulate people, and even with the availability of porn, there is no shortage of wanting to explore media with beautiful people.
There is a second disconnect in this, because you can't talk about positive depictions of characters as a means for a less harmful culture, without also talking about the inclusion about fat characters, ugly characters and old characters. You will see these types of characters less than anyone else, and they don't have people on the internet yamming for more unattractive realistic looking characters.
The sex could be toned down, and the tastefulness up, but I still think that the body image issues are a much deeper ingrained problem that will persist as long as the character design ideals are still about homogenized white Hollywood tropes of young beautiful white actors, and that basically being it.
It's been interesting seeing how little of a shit people give about Overwatchs massive dedication to better representing diverse characters. When Blizzard was called out for their skimpy dressed characters, the CEO of Blizzard made a big deal out of that they would change their character design process to be more inclusive. Most people responded with a "yeah, right" but now that Overwatch has delivered with some truly unique character designs, I am saddened to see how little people are up arms over it.
I'm hoping that the game will be a massive success and that people will be pulled to those characters, but I fear that many gamers just want the same sexy characters they get from hollywood and their american idol contestants due to escapism.
I think a game can be over sexualized without a story hook. I think that's completely fine. The problem is when most games have nothing interesting to offer or interesting to say, and so it becomes a backburner on everything.
We don't know how to make Lost in Translation, as a game yet.
But like in all previous of these threads we end up at the same exit. Women are needed to lead development teams and get their visions out. It will have to be a woman who designs the "sex and the city" or "desperate housewives" for women. Whatever that game / story looks like.
The cruel truth is that society is primed this way because sex is on the subconscious mind almost constantly. It's one of the very few driving vehicles that can totally manipulate people, and even with the availability of porn, there is no shortage of wanting to explore media with beautiful people.
There is a second disconnect in this, because you can't talk about positive depictions of characters as a means for a less harmful culture, without also talking about the inclusion about fat characters, ugly characters and old characters. You will see these types of characters less than anyone else, and they don't have people on the internet yamming for more unattractive realistic looking characters.
The sex could be toned down, and the tastefulness up, but I still think that the body image issues are a much deeper ingrained problem that will persist as long as the character design ideals are still about homogenized white Hollywood tropes of young beautiful white actors, and that basically being it.
It's been interesting seeing how little of a shit people give about Overwatchs massive dedication to better representing diverse characters. When Blizzard was called out for their skimpy dressed characters, the CEO of Blizzard made a big deal out of that they would change their character design process to be more inclusive. Most people responded with a "yeah, right" but now that Overwatch has delivered with some truly unique character designs, I am saddened to see how little people are up arms over it.
I'm hoping that the game will be a massive success and that people will be pulled to those characters, but I fear that many gamers just want the same sexy characters they get from hollywood and their american idol contestants due to escapism.
I think a game can be over sexualized without a story hook. I think that's completely fine. The problem is when most games have nothing interesting to offer or interesting to say, and so it becomes a backburner on everything.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's amazing that this needs to be spelled out, haha. I think Moxxi in Borderlands and the Wolfenstein TNO sex scene are rather exceptionally well-handled
obligatory: by gaming standards
People are probably unimpressed by Overwatch because even though Blizzard is making some progress, it's been rather slim. All the female characters on the poster have the same body type (compare to the great variety of body types on the males), which is of course the idealized conventionally attractive type, and most of them are still sexualized for no reason, just not on the same level as they used to. It's like they can't help themselves.
[Edit: it's weird how Zarya, the one female character who does have a different body type... isn't on the poster. GG Blizzard]
[Edit 2: oh they added her later... after listening to critics! How about that, critics having an influence. Damn SJWs censoring... oh wait xD]
Storm Raider
Banned
Chloe was a 'friends with benefits' fling, Elena is the girl you actually love.
None are done wrong, and both have their place in the real world.
____
MGS3 is hilarious because the woman uses the man to benefit her; totally breaking all tropes; and she left in the morning without telling Snake.
God damn, no wonder he became a demon. We didn't even need 'MGSV' ...
One of the very few cases where the explanation and context for a female character's sexuality is perfectly understandable:
Jeanette from Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines. You meet her at a Night Club that she helps run, so her outfit fits. She's flirty, but in context it makes sense. And her backstory and the type of vampire she is makes it work. Backstory Spoilers:
Jeanette from Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines. You meet her at a Night Club that she helps run, so her outfit fits. She's flirty, but in context it makes sense. And her backstory and the type of vampire she is makes it work. Backstory Spoilers:
she's a malkavian, which are always batshit insane in some way. In her case she has a split personality with her sister(which, because she changes clothes and hairstyles whenever they swap, takes awhile for the player to notice), who has a no-nonsense, all business attitude, and the reason for the split personality is because one of the sisters was murdered at a young age and the other refused to acknowledge it on top of the whole "they're Malkavian" thing.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards
If it helps, you can use examples that are still problematic while having good aspects to them.
For example, I really like Kelly from Mass Effect 2. Her sexuality in in harmony with her all loving space hippie nature. She's so empathetic that she is essentially pansexual. Mass Effect does indeed have issues with their depictions of characters (Hello, Miranda. Hello, Jack), but Kelly's "I love everyone" approach to it was written well enough and was novel enough to make me consider her a good example of it.
I'm less interested in "positive depictions of sexuality" than I am in "thoughtful depictions of sexuality". Sexuality isn't exclusively positive it's a complicated force that is beautiful sometimes and gets in the way of things sometimes and corrupts people sometimes.
In this way Catherine is the canonical answer. That's a game that's about sexuality from a bunch of angles. It has titilating content sure but its mission is much more about exploration than exploitation. I don't even know if I'm on board with any of its conclusions but I really liked it as a lens and it's super worth thinking about.
Mass Effect is sort of complicated by the "insert coin, get sex" thing but as a whole it does a lot of good things. It helps they subverted it a bit with the "fuck Jack and she won't be into you" thing. Plotting a relationship over three games is pretty well done considering. I had Liara as my babe in ME1 then she wasn't in ME2 so I figured I'd throw Tali a bone (after I boned Jack...) but I ended up really liking Tali's storyline. The the Lair of the Shadowbroker comes out and Liara's back in the picture and I honestly wrestled with those relationships. I considered replaying 2 to "stay true" to Liara but then I didn't want to just leave Tali twisting in the wind. Mass Effect is a bad model of romance but I had experiences within it that gave me things to think about re sex and romance and relationships.
In this way Catherine is the canonical answer. That's a game that's about sexuality from a bunch of angles. It has titilating content sure but its mission is much more about exploration than exploitation. I don't even know if I'm on board with any of its conclusions but I really liked it as a lens and it's super worth thinking about.
Mass Effect is sort of complicated by the "insert coin, get sex" thing but as a whole it does a lot of good things. It helps they subverted it a bit with the "fuck Jack and she won't be into you" thing. Plotting a relationship over three games is pretty well done considering. I had Liara as my babe in ME1 then she wasn't in ME2 so I figured I'd throw Tali a bone (after I boned Jack...) but I ended up really liking Tali's storyline. The the Lair of the Shadowbroker comes out and Liara's back in the picture and I honestly wrestled with those relationships. I considered replaying 2 to "stay true" to Liara but then I didn't want to just leave Tali twisting in the wind. Mass Effect is a bad model of romance but I had experiences within it that gave me things to think about re sex and romance and relationships.
BibiMaghoo
Member
I preface this with the disclosure that I have never played the game, but...
When people defend the sexuality of Bayonetta, I die a little inside. The promotional material, clips I've seen of the game in play and trailers, all consistenly promote the worst aspects of using sexuality in games. I would use it as an example in the opposite version of this thread.
When people defend the sexuality of Bayonetta, I die a little inside. The promotional material, clips I've seen of the game in play and trailers, all consistenly promote the worst aspects of using sexuality in games. I would use it as an example in the opposite version of this thread.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Bayonetta as a character, more than any other, manages to convince me of the "illusion" that she is choosing to look and act that way. Like, obviously all fiction is constructed, but the best fiction manages to convince us that it's not, and Bayonetta convinces me that she has agency
As I prefaced in my OP, people will have disagreeing opinions on this based on how they view positive sexual depictions and how they view particular characters. You're welcome to your opinion, and I won't fight you on it.
I'll merely say that I feel as though that most people who view Bayonetta negatively seem to do so with the notion that sexuality cannot be positive if it is also pandering. I cannot deny that the male gaze exists in Bayonetta. It's there, there's no working around that. However, I outlined the reasons why Bayonetta's example is a positive one: She is a willful participant in it in the context of the game world.
The most analogous example of this is maybe Juliet Starling from Lollipop Chainsaw. She's the same basic archtype, a fighting female warrior that's also hyper idealized attractive and fitted with the male gaze. However, what seperates Juliet and Bayonetta is that Juliet is...innocent of all the sexualization. When you move the camera to get an upskirt shot, she covers herself. She doesn't watch porn, and doesn't have sex wiith the boyfriend she's so devoted to. Other characters make sexual advances on her with her discomfort. She's insecure about her body image and thinks she's fat.
The sexual depiction of such a character to the degree she was just feels gross in a way that it simply doesn't with Bayonetta. Juliet herself has no interest in being sexual, but the world around her forces her to be, whether we're talking other characters like her pervert mentor or the writer for having created unlockable outfits that are even more revealing, or the player himself. Bayonetta being a consensual and willing participant in her sexuality makes all the difference in the world.
No kidding. This was one of the things that I found very blatantly typical about the Overwatch roster.
Speaking of which, it's related to this stereotype that is all too common among gendered humanoid creature/race designs:
She's sort of a Wonder Woman situation I think. Her babeliness is definitely what gets sold and packaged and marketed but the character herself in the work is much more complicated than "sexpot to ogle". The marketing says "this (sexiness) is for you" but the work says "this (sexiness) is hers".
I never did play Bayonetta 2 though.
AND they just announced an almost anorexic underage girl with boob socks.
When the heavy weapons girl sounded like a point in a right direction ... =P
It is WAY EASY for a character to "choose to be sexy" when she is a thin big busted girl made as the perfect girl from her creator choosing to be sexy.
Show me a witch that is fat and has pimples and no makeup or whatever that still own her sexuality and I will be impressed.... but NO ! Every witch that gets naked because of her power is a WOMAN with THE SAME BODY TYPE
Again, I feel I am missing the gap of logic between being sexually empowered is only valid if you're unattractive. If you're referring to the body image issue, it's difficult to get unattractive people in general in games, male or female, because they are all constructs and generally meant to be appealing. What your talking about is a more of a real life issue, but even moreso a psychological issue rather than a physical one. It's a struggle with the idea that you're attractive, not actual being. I've met plenty of people who were convinced they were hideous when they look fine.
True, it's probably a more frequent problem for people who legitimately have physiological bodily problems, but the issue doesn't disappear if you happen to have a pretty face and a good body, unfortunately.
Bayo 2 is much less sexualized in general. Less fanservicey shots and all. Even her outfit isn't as provocative as her last one was, being more loose rather than skin tight. It's still Bayonetta, but you get 96% of the sexualization in the prologue of the game. After that, she handles things rather matter of factly. On the other hand, her personality doesn't come across quite as strong and confident, and she doesn't canonically win every fight hands down like she does in 1. Too be clear, she's not out of character or anything, she's still strong and confident and has fun, just not as intensely as in 1.
Chloe from Uncharted 2
This is a good answer.
SixMachine
Member
The Charr from Guild Wars are done well because both genders look like large angry cat people and female Charr don't have breasts, though that does make it harder to tell if it's a male or female Charr at a glance until they start talking since they are slightly different in their frame. The other alternative was to give female char 6 nipples like cats according to the devs, so maybe sticking with none is a good idea...unless that is your thing.
female
male
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I don't know about sexual, and it's not an actual relationship, that's uh, "fan input." Chris and Piers have a particularly close relationship for two dudes in a video game, but there's nothing any more explicit romantically or sexually than with Chris and Jill. Piers is Chris's subordinate who idolizes him, but has to deal with that Chris is prone to emotional outbursts and stubbornness. Chris has PTSD like 3-4 times over by now to the point that it's a defining character trait and that's not really going to be addressed because this is Resident Evil. Not really a series that much cares for progressing its characters' development, you can just look at the endless cycle of Leon and Ada for that.
Stallion Dan
Member
Seriously? Nothing but bad fan shipping.
It is MUCH more positive if it is a person considered unatractive.
I am not talking about A character but the UNIVERSE that character lives.
It is not a positive depiction of sexuality if only the hot girls are sexual. That is called an adult magazine.
Ellie from borderlands is a better example than Moxxi EXACTLY because of that
She has lots of clevage and a heart tatooed in her breast and she even has awesome costumes "to protect her beautiful girth."
For the same reason why Sexy Ryu is a better depiction of sexuality than Laura .... because it is more rare to see a men that is considered Sexy where Laura is ... just another one except maybe for her hair and Poison is a crap cliche of trans people being sex workers
I think Mona Sax is a great example. Her clothes are not very revealing, her shirt doesn't even show any cleavage. I don't recall any time she is put front and center because of her body, she never reveals herself to a bad guy for her advantage, in fact much of her sexuality lies in how the character is written and voiced. She's mysterious, there's something alluring about her voice. She doesn't try to seduce Max, she pushes him away. And Max tries to resist her, but there is something happening between them, there's passion and it's powerful. And when Max can't stay away and he grabs her arm and she says, "What is it Max? What do you want from me?"
You're like - Oh God...
I understand your point, but I think you're conflating diversity with general sexual positivity. Diversity is good and I would agree with you that those characters are also good examples, because it isn't only attractive people who have a right to feel comfortable with their bodies and sexuality, but so does everyone else. It's also a powerful statement.
However, by writing off characters context in favor of pure aesthetic diversity, I feel you're undermining your point. You say that it's just a adult magazine if everyone is attractive. Well, in that case, what your describing is also an adult magazine, just one that happens to appeal to many different sexual proclivities, from chubbie chasers to homosexual males. You're saying it doesn't matter what their characters are, as long as the fanservice is varied and diverse, and I fundamentally disagree with that. The problem of adult magazines isn't that they don't feature enough kinds of fetishes, it's that they're exploitative. Being samey is also an issue, but a different issue than the one I was getting at.
I agree we need to accept that beauty exists in more than one female body type, but positive sexual depictions are in characters as much as, if not more than, worlds.
TheSpoiler
Member
It also helps that Bayo's proportions are already exaggerated.
Many of my female friends, including my girlfriend, enjoyed Bayonetta because she was so happy with herself. It didn't matter that her body was the error of photoshop - she was comfortable with herself, both inside and out.
Bayonetta lives and breathes sexuality in a way that somehow never managed to make me uncomfortable. She's the kind of character people talk about when they argue empowerment vs. objectification. I'm not even female and she has me like, "Work it."
Practically all of her animations are sexified. Her ridiculous walk, her posing at the end of a series of dodges, that undersized lollipop. She's somewhere between a stripper, a dominatrix, and Rambo. And it's always awesome.
Practically all of her animations are sexified. Her ridiculous walk, her posing at the end of a series of dodges, that undersized lollipop. She's somewhere between a stripper, a dominatrix, and Rambo. And it's always awesome.
She is a Drag Queen =P
TheSpoiler
Member
Well 1). she's not a male, and that's not what Drag Queen means, and 2). what would be the issue if she was?
cj_iwakura
Member
The story reason is
because the shade possessing her hates sunlight, so she wears less to keep it at bay.
Your theory could be true too, though.
1) Drag Queens can be girls too
2) nothing .. it is just that "Drag queen" fits her character better than "stripper, dominatrix, rambo"
The
possesion also gave her the "hermaphrodite" in the theory
Lunchbillion
Member
It's nice to read through a GAF thread that's an extended and coherent conversation rather than an endless stream of driveby posts that don't address each other at all. Interesting points all round, everyone. Good thread. 
Also I'd like to chime in about Cortana but I need to finish Halo 5 first.
Also I'd like to chime in about Cortana but I need to finish Halo 5 first.
no such thing.
Because any reasoning for a specific design can and will be waved off as bullshit...and in a sense its true bceuase the main thing that goes into designs is "do I think this thing look cool or good" and most designers tend to use designs they think are sexy to them. Thus there tends to be a lot of "overly " sexy designs...because that is what the designers like. Very few people like ugly or imperfect things..and thus most designs reflect that. However, this current climate where liking these designs can get you called sexist or a 14 year old kid who lives in their parents basement (often in a very passive aggressive way) people tend to make "reasons" for a certain design to avoid those shots.
Personally I don't think it is possible because there is no black or white answer to this issue. You can have what is a pretty basic design and it still get called sexist because something...or on the flipside, that basic design gets called boring and restrictive. You cannot win. So just make what you want to make and keep it moving..
Because any reasoning for a specific design can and will be waved off as bullshit...and in a sense its true bceuase the main thing that goes into designs is "do I think this thing look cool or good" and most designers tend to use designs they think are sexy to them. Thus there tends to be a lot of "overly " sexy designs...because that is what the designers like. Very few people like ugly or imperfect things..and thus most designs reflect that. However, this current climate where liking these designs can get you called sexist or a 14 year old kid who lives in their parents basement (often in a very passive aggressive way) people tend to make "reasons" for a certain design to avoid those shots.
Personally I don't think it is possible because there is no black or white answer to this issue. You can have what is a pretty basic design and it still get called sexist because something...or on the flipside, that basic design gets called boring and restrictive. You cannot win. So just make what you want to make and keep it moving..
Yes, and they are called Faux Queen.
cj_iwakura
Member
People call Kaine a freak before she ever meets Tyrann, which implies she was born that way.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Luigi and Daisy probably have a healthy sex life.
TheSpoiler
Member
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
Kojima is a legendary developer but his treatment of women in his games is deplorable. They are generally nothing more than titillating objects to be gawked at. A lot of them come with special modes or "secret" button presses to allow you to get a closer look.
I would agree in this case. Eva is atleast a better done example as she has legitimate reason to be gawked over (it's literally her intention), and that's something I suppose. However, it doesn't change that she is hypersexualized for the titillation of the player. Having a legitimate excuse for it isn't enough to necessarily be a positive depiction in my mind, especially since Eva's character is that she has been forced into this role by the Chinese government.
Freeman
Banned
The voice is the best part. Elena is still the best tho. Elena change to Uncharted 4 was great, did Chloe changed as well?
Chloe from Uncharted 2
To be fair to Kojima we get butt close ups of men in tights, naked Raiden and Vamp. Its also consistent with what we see in espionage movies, Bond girls and all.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You've never played Peace Walker.
AlphaDragoon
Member
**Life is Strange story spoilers, do not read if you haven't completed**
Fortunately Dontnod (same devs made LiS and Remember Me) stopped being weenies and allowed a female lead to kiss a male character on camera in Life is Strange.
cj_iwakura
Member
Uh, Peace Walker isn't exactly a shining beacon of feminism either... it just happens to have some very solid good examples too.
True, but I also feel that fanservice of men in his games is partially comedic. Like, Raiden was running around nude in MGS2, but that wasn't meant to be sexy, that was meant to be funny. Bah. Whatever. Kojima is a problematic example, but still gives us some awesome characters, including The Boss (Who is yet still unnecessarily sexualized, but....)
Basically, the point is, no only does Kojima need an editor, but also someone who makes him think more about gender issues, because he does too much well for someone who makes these kinds of mistakes.