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Positive depictions of sexuality in game characters

Airola

Member
But if the argument that a character does something because its creator deemed it should do so and therefore it doesn't count, doesn't that basically make every single character that has ever existed completely moot?

Ellie from Borderlands isn't proud of her body, that was decided by her writers. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil isn't self-reliant and strong, her designers made her that. Any character is by that argument then completely pointless.

Well, I do think that video game characters are mostly quite pointless, but I guess that is something I perhaps should write to that "controversial opinions on video games" thread :D


However, it's all about what the creator chooses to show. The people responsible for Bayonetta could've chosen to do it differently. In Bayonetta's case I would say that what the creators chose to show was good for the game but not that good for giving a "positive depiction of sexuality."

Maybe we could say it's perhaps a better alternative than something else, but that doesn't still mean it's good at it.
 

Keasar

Member
Those examples I gave was videogame related because of the discussion, but we could easily just keep pulling examples from TV shows, movies, cartoon, books, musicals etc. Everything in those are created by someone because they wanted to show, say, explain something and so on. If the characters themselves in all these mediums doesn't really do anything by "themselves", then what is the point of telling stories with characters?

Bayonetta was created by some people and doesn't really exist, that is true, but what people interpret the character as, how they perceive the character is real though. While you may have seen Bayonetta as something scandalous, many others seem to have perceived her as something else, something positive, both men and women, surely that must mean something at least?
 

Monocle

Member
Bayonetta (as a character, not the design thats still awesome) was almost ruined on the sequel anyways, most arguments for her character come from the first game for good reason.
She's amazing in Bayonetta 2. She's the Dante to Jeanne's Beatrice, taking on a classically male role and
totally succeeding
. And the way the game goes into her history and ties into the original is beautifully done. Bayonetta 2 fills in so much of the first game's shaky plot. I love it.
 

Veelk

Banned
She's amazing in Bayonetta 2. She's the Dante to Jeanne's Beatrice, taking on a classically male role and
totally succeeding
. And the way the game goes into her history and ties into the original is beautifully done. Bayonetta 2 fills in so much of the first game's shaky plot. I love it.

I think he refers to the way Bayonetta is less intense and confident in her interactions. The Lumen sage gives her a great degree of trouble in their cinematic fights, she hesitates in her speech at points in the game with him (after she discovers he is her father), and canonically doesn't win every fight like she does in the first game. She's also less prone to doing sexual teases and stuff. She's kinder and more willfully looks after Loki, whereas she was much more Tsundere with helping Cereza.

I personally don't think that 'ruins' her character at all, but it was a noticeable alteration in interaction. Some of it is explained by character development (figuring out her past made her less abrasive), but some is just odd.

And while it's good that Bayo took the classical male role, it sucked that Jeanne had to take the classical damsel role. I would have loved to walk in, and see Jeanne in the middle of battle that has been going on since the middle of the game, trapped, but demons losing their shit because they never faced such a fighter that they couldn't have started to effectively feed off her. They've been feeding, but it would have been better to show Jeanne as a figure of power, even at her lowest point.
 

Ratrat

Member
uncharted222_5.jpg


Chloe from Uncharted 2
Eh? Didn't the voice actress say that they told her the characterization was 'slut'? Besides she's just another suspicious brit for most of the game.
 

choodi

Banned
I think we can't go into a thread like this without keeping this comic in mind.

Every time i see that comic I have to laugh because it's funny and it's funny because it pretty much sums up exactly what almost every single 'strong female character' in male oriented fiction (games, books and films) is like.
 
6900456397_b5b3f7c29f_o.jpg



She's never been topped. She isn't a pandering beauty, she has agency over herself, she innocently flirts with Link because she enjoys messing with him, and she's strong character overall.

Edit: Telma from Twilight Princess
 

Airola

Member
Those examples I gave was videogame related because of the discussion, but we could easily just keep pulling examples from TV shows, movies, cartoon, books, musicals etc. Everything in those are created by someone because they wanted to show, say, explain something and so on. If the characters themselves in all these mediums doesn't really do anything by "themselves", then what is the point of telling stories with characters?

Bayonetta was created by some people and doesn't really exist, that is true, but what people interpret the character as, how they perceive the character is real though. While you may have seen Bayonetta as something scandalous, many others seem to have perceived her as something else, something positive, both men and women, surely that must mean something at least?

I mean that video games are different in a sense that whatever they show must be created from scratch. Same goes to cartoons (which video game cutscenes are). All the crotch shots and stuff like that are the way they are because it was deliberately done so. In movies for example a lot of the end result is dependable on how the performers portray what they are told to do. Much of subtlety comes from the performers and that can affect on the outcome greatly, whereas in video games it's all more deliberate. Sure, there is very advanced motion capture in video games but that is still all something that can and will be digitally altered.

However, as you said, the same things apply also to other medium as well. In the end, the end product is what the project director more or less wanted it to be. It's not an impossibility for a movie to have a character who is supposed to be all empowered and whatever else, yet the movie could have scenes that contradict that. It's all what the creator chooses to show. Sometimes the creators have some sexist, racist or whatever else -isms in themselves so that it will creep in their works in a way or another.

And sometimes the character personalities are just an excuse to have something "controversial" in the product. Exploitation movie makers used that all the time. They'd write a certain type of character so that they could use those character traits to explain why there is a boob or a butt shot here and there. Or they would fit in a boob or a butt shot because that character has that trait. Traits were sometimes created for boobs and sometimes traits were used to show boobs. Sure it all could be explained or "explained", but in a way or another they used the storytelling system for their own amusement and to sell the product.

I personally don't view Bayonetta as scandalous at all. But yeah, you are right that people can and will perceive things differently. I can ignore a sexist (or any other -ism that work might have) part in a work of fiction and see the other qualities in it. I can ignore the other qualities in a work of fiction and see the sexism in it. Or I can see both the sexist parts and the other qualities in it, and either accept it for what it is or reject it.

You wrote:
"While you may have seen Bayonetta as something scandalous, many others seem to have perceived her as something else, something positive, both men and women, surely that must mean something at least?"

Yes, that's very true, but doesn't that go both ways though? Couldn't that be said for both sides?


If you can see something positive in something, more power to you. It's a good thing. But when that work contains something that can be seen as something opposite, it's good to be prepared to hear that called out. Same goes to the other side too, of course.


Well... I guess I just think that we should perhaps accept that sometimes we like things that are sexist. We might not like the sexism in it but we like the product. Or sometimes we like the sexism too. For myself I can say that in Bayonetta's case I don't like the games themselves but if something attracts me in those games is the things could be interpreted as sexist. And the religious and spirituality based names of the enemies are great too (like, really, there are enemies called Belief and Worship - that's nearly idiotic yet very ingenious!). It almost has this "sacred and profane" art thing going on.

(oh dear, I turned this reply into a rambling one again. Don't know if I really answered your questions or if I just made all even more confusing. Oh well...)
 

Monocle

Member
I think he refers to the way Bayonetta is less intense and confident in her interactions. The Lumen sage gives her a great degree of trouble in their cinematic fights, she hesitates in her speech at points in the game with him (after she discovers he is her father), and canonically doesn't win every fight like she does in the first game. She's also less prone to doing sexual teases and stuff. She's kinder and more willfully looks after Loki, whereas she was much more Tsundere with helping Cereza.

I personally don't think that 'ruins' her character at all, but it was a noticeable alteration in interaction. Some of it is explained by character development (figuring out her past made her less abrasive), but some is just odd.
You have a point, but yeah, I took most of the change in her behavior to be a sign of character development. She never does anything blatantly out of character. She's just less aggressive overall.

And while it's good that Bayo took the classical male role, it sucked that Jeanne had to take the classical damsel role. I would have loved to walk in, and see Jeanne in the middle of battle that has been going on since the middle of the game, trapped, but demons losing their shit because they never faced such a fighter that they couldn't have started to effectively feed off her. They've been feeding, but it would have been better to show Jeanne as a figure of power, even at her lowest point.
I agree, that would have been a better way to handle it.
 

Astral Dog

Member
You have a point, but yeah, I took most of the change in her behavior to be a sign of character development. She never does anything blatantly out of character. She's just less aggressive overall.


I agree, that would have been a better way to handle it.
Also how the game ignores her to show off Loki and
Balder
at every opportunity, worse (and sometimes male) versions of Jeanne,
Balder (!)
and Cereza from the first game, especially Loki.

But well, she does have a few strong scenes and fun dialogue as expected.

Saving Jeanne was a strong point, but in the end, the game was about taking Loki to fimbulventr., and all the, weird sequences that happened between
 

Mephala

Member
Judith is honestly a good character personality-wise, but her outfit and the excuse for it are pure face palm. The characters themselves do acknowledge that it's kind of ridiculous in some conversations, then it's ignored for the most part. It doesn't seem at all necessary for her character.

They need to drop that conversation at some point. It is enough that several NPCs and party members comment on it a few times throughout the game. Once they realised she isn't going to change just because they are uncomfortable with it there is no real need to continue talking about it non-stop. There has to be some balance between having it acknowledged without it becoming an irritating repeating conversation.

I think necessity is a silly argument in this discussion. The developers choose to add sexual appeal to characters or they do not. Necessity isn't really part of it. You could also argue that "sex sells". As much as I hate this argument there was a recent topic about a comment from someone regarding JRPGs having many cute girls -_-
Assuming the audience partly feels the same, this kind of attitude looks for characters that show a bit of skin. Necessity then becomes even less meaningful. It isn't necessary for Estelle to be dressed like a 4 yo cosplayer either. It isn't necessary for Raven to bear his chest and act all seedy towards the girls. It isn't necessary for Repede to be smoking a pipe. It was a design decision. The question is whether the results were good. I personally found that Judith is actually done well overall. The sexuality suits her. I just wish her clothes weren't so stupid looking.

Something like Frieda from Ys would be more to my liking but also less stunning which is obviously what Judith was going for.
FAgIyDT.png

Speaking Frieda. She reminds me of Judith in many ways. Confident, competent, great fighter and knows she has some sex appeal. In a way she is a bit like a "safer" version of Judith. That said, Frieda is in a Ys game afterall so characters and developments are much more limited than Judith's.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Trying to think of someone not brought up, maybe Jean from Lunar 2?


1W0fjep.gif


She's a dancer that we find out was raised to be an
assassin
. She may wear a sexy dancer outfit reminiscent of a flamenco style, but she's a bad ass martial artist as well. She rocks the dress.

wzZWMvT.jpg


Kanpai!

z8q6QN3.jpg
 
Bayonetta is fucking blatant exploitation. She's great and all but arguing that she's a positive depiction of sexuality in games is utterly ridiculous; her sexuality/nudity does notion but titillate and the fact that she was drawn by a woman means shit when a group of overtly sexist men gave her the brief of a character who strips to attack because it's totes hot.

It's sad to see people getting into long discussion's about her when a character like Gann from Mask of the Betayer isn't even mentioned. Gann flaunts his sexiness as much as Bayonetta and as with Bayonetta he's created to be sexy, but there's actual world for him to act in and a legitimate reasons for it. The game delves into the consequences of his attractiveness to others along with who it makes him. It also manages to do it with 0 crotch shots.

I enjoy Bayonetta but listing her as some figurehead for a positive depiction of sexuality or feminism is akin to saying Black Dynamite's the leading example for the portrayal of a black character in the history of cinema.
 

Monocle

Member
Bayonetta is fucking blatant exploitation. She's great and all but arguing that she's a positive depiction of sexuality in games is utterly ridiculous; her sexuality/nudity does notion but titillate and the fact that she was drawn by a woman means shit when a group of overtly sexist men gave her the brief of a character who strips to attack because it's totes hot.

It's sad to see people getting into long discussion's about her when a character like Gann from Mask of the Betayer isn't even mentioned. Gann flaunts his sexiness as much as Bayonetta and as with Bayonetta he's created to be sexy, but there's actual world for him to act in and a legitimate reasons for it. The game delves into the consequences of his attractiveness to others along with who it makes him. It also manages to do it with 0 crotch shots.

I enjoy Bayonetta but listing her as some figurehead for a positive depiction of sexuality or feminism is akin to saying Black Dynamite's the leading example for the portrayal of a black character in the history of cinema.
You're seeing what you want to see. Name another female protagonist who's equally strong or much stronger than all the men, saves everyone who needs saving (including a man who wouldn't have been able to save himself), and actually gets more powerful the more vulnerable she appears.

Incidentally, there's nothing especially radical about a man flaunting his sexuality, unless he lives in a matriarchal society with a sexual double standard against men.
 

HeelPower

Member
This thread hasn't even started.

Its Maria from Silent Hill 2 and nothing comes close.Its the most sophisticated depiction of sexuality in games.

Maria sexual appeal is a core of her character,yet not once do the creators use her to titillate the player or cheapen her in any such fashion,and they easily could've given the subject matter.

You know about James' sexual frustration by watching...guess who..James! His awkward behavior around Maria and the way he looks at her give away his desires for her.The character herself is treated with such finesse from conception to execution in the game.

Instead of T&A shots.You get legendary stuff like this scene.
sh3.jpg

maria-from-silent-hill.jpg
 

Afrocious

Member
This thread hasn't even started.

Its Maria from Silent Hill 2 and nothing comes close.Its the most sophisticated depiction of sexuality in games.

Maria sexual appeal is a core of her character,yet not once do the creators use her to titillate the player or cheapen her in any such fashion,and they easily could've given the subject matter.

You know about James' sexual frustration by watching...guess who..James! His awkward behavior around Maria and the way he looks at her give away his desires for her.The character herself is treated with such finesse from conception to execution in the game.

Instead of T&A shots.You get legendary stuff like this scene.

sh3.jpg

maria-from-silent-hill.jpg

I don't find Maria at all as a positive depiction of sexuality given
she's basically created from James' suppressed desires he wants out of his wife. She is who she is because of James, and not out of her choice.
 

Veelk

Banned
I don't find Maria at all as a positive depiction of sexuality given
she's basically created from James' suppressed desires he wants out of his wife. She is who she is because of James, and not out of her choice.
If anything, it would be a well written depiction of negative sexual expression.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
Bayonetta is fucking blatant exploitation. She's great and all but arguing that she's a positive depiction of sexuality in games is utterly ridiculous; her sexuality/nudity does notion but titillate and the fact that she was drawn by a woman means shit when a group of overtly sexist men gave her the brief of a character who strips to attack because it's totes hot.

It's sad to see people getting into long discussion's about her when a character like Gann from Mask of the Betayer isn't even mentioned. Gann flaunts his sexiness as much as Bayonetta and as with Bayonetta he's created to be sexy, but there's actual world for him to act in and a legitimate reasons for it. The game delves into the consequences of his attractiveness to others along with who it makes him. It also manages to do it with 0 crotch shots.

I enjoy Bayonetta but listing her as some figurehead for a positive depiction of sexuality or feminism is akin to saying Black Dynamite's the leading example for the portrayal of a black character in the history of cinema.

Getting pretty annoying to see plenty of people trying to downplay Shimazaki's input on Bayonetta, despite there being video evidence of it posted in this thread. Kind of gives the condescending impression a woman has to be an auteur having made all the decisions behind a work to get proper credit.
 

Cloyster

Banned
Bayonetta is fucking blatant exploitation. She's great and all but arguing that she's a positive depiction of sexuality in games is utterly ridiculous; her sexuality/nudity does notion but titillate and the fact that she was drawn by a woman means shit when a group of overtly sexist men gave her the brief of a character who strips to attack because it's totes hot.

It's sad to see people getting into long discussion's about her when a character like Gann from Mask of the Betayer isn't even mentioned. Gann flaunts his sexiness as much as Bayonetta and as with Bayonetta he's created to be sexy, but there's actual world for him to act in and a legitimate reasons for it. The game delves into the consequences of his attractiveness to others along with who it makes him. It also manages to do it with 0 crotch shots.

I enjoy Bayonetta but listing her as some figurehead for a positive depiction of sexuality or feminism is akin to saying Black Dynamite's the leading example for the portrayal of a black character in the history of cinema.

Way to totally miss the point.
 
People are probably unimpressed by Overwatch because even though Blizzard is making some progress, it's been rather slim. All the female characters on the poster have the same body type (compare to the great variety of body types on the males), which is of course the idealized conventionally attractive type, and most of them are still sexualized for no reason, just not on the same level as they used to. It's like they can't help themselves.

This is literally the exact thing this artist brings up in an earlier blog post of hers on female portrayals in games - that people reduce female body types down simply whether or not they're "sexy" and then stop looking/caring beyond that.

She has a second article on the subject that deals with Bayonetta and is an interesting read as well.

I'm not really sure how someone can reduce the entirety of Overwatch's female cast down to what is supposedly one body type and then turn around and claim that Lucio, Junkrat, Soldier 76, McCree, Reaper, and Hanzo are all somehow distinctly different (they're all broad-shouldered athletic men with defined musculature in the same way all the women are long-legged and athletic). If you eliminate them then you're basically looking at only remaining two human males (Torbjorn and Roadhog) stacked up against Zarya while the rest of the cast is non-human (robots and a gorilla).

I guess you're real request is what? not to have so many 'classically attractive' characters (of either gender), or to have fewer characters with athletic builds? I'm not sure what body types you're looking for if you're lumping 90% of the cast into a single type.
 

Keasar

Member

Yeah, there are deliberate crotch shots and stuff in Bayonetta. The reason though I think it is fine is because Bayonetta is written to be in on it, she is self-aware of the fact that people are watching and enjoys it herself. She is a very sex positive character and the perplexing thing to me is that this seem to be a bad thing immediatly.

I would agreed with every critic about her being exploited etc. if she was acting more like an innocent bystander who did not know she was being stalked as is the case with so many other games that just goes random panty/boob-shot on characters for no reason. Bayonetta however is aware, she performs and loves it. She doesn't however just put out for anyone, play the game and you will notice how many phallic symbols she crushes, eviscerates or completely obliterate throughout the game. She loves to tease but she chooses herself what she wants in the end.

I applaud Bayonetta as a character and how open and fun she is, but I would not wanna go fucking near her cause she is terrifying and people miss that point completely just because of her looks. :p

This is literally the exact thing this artist brings up in an earlier blog post of hers on female portrayals in games - that people reduce female body types down simply whether or not they're "sexy" and then stop looking/caring beyond that.

She has a second article on the subject that deals with Bayonetta and is an interesting read as well.

I'm not really sure how someone can reduce the entirety of Overwatch's female cast down to what is supposedly one body type and then turn around and claim that Lucio, Junkrat, Soldier 76, McCree, Reaper, and Hanzo are all somehow distinctly different (they're all broad-shouldered athletic men with defined musculature in the same way all the women are long-legged and athletic). If you eliminate them then you're basically looking at only remaining two human males (Torbjorn and Roadhog) stacked up against Zarya while the rest of the cast is non-human (robots and a gorilla).

I guess you're real request is what? not to have so many 'classically attractive' characters (of either gender), or to have fewer characters with athletic builds? I'm not sure what body types you're looking for if you're lumping 90% of the cast into a single type.

I actually liked these two blogs, been thinking that its weird that nobody says anything about Hilde or Talim in Soul Calibur (except that all female characters should look like them) while not a single complaint is ever raised about Voldo or that all male characters are basically the exact same type of super buff because "Shut up, this is your power fantasy" (which itself is weird cause apparently I don't get to say what I consider my power fantasy is).
 

Karl Hawk

Banned
Oh, so she's canonically bisexual then?
More or less, yes.

Keep in mind that the author of the Witcher novels doesn't consider the video game series as canon. Sure, the games has some references to the books from time to time, but I like said, the author doesn't consider them as canon
 

writeandwrong

Neo Member
I actually liked these two blogs, been thinking that its weird that nobody says anything about Hilde or Talim in Soul Calibur (except that all female characters should look like them) while not a single complaint is ever raised about Voldo or that all male characters are basically the exact same type of super buff because "Shut up, this is your power fantasy" (which itself is weird cause apparently I don't get to say what I consider my power fantasy is).

Nobody is saying that all female characters need to look alike. I actually have no problem with Bayonetta existing as she's designed, from what I've seen the over-the-top way she flaunts herself totally fits the tone and style of the game she's in. I just don't think that makes her a strong female character. Every artistic medium has room for exploitation; Quentin Tarantino is one of the most popular and respected filmmakers alive and about 80% of what he makes could be considered exploitation films.

And whether or not it's your power fantasy, the point is still that it was designed to be a power fantasy that appeals to young males. Women are being objectified to make men feel better, while men are being idealised to make men feel better. To quote Jim Sterling: "This uniform idealisation of what men ought to be is a problem in and of itself, but it's not the same problem faced by women."
 
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