Lost muscle mass? More like less dithering.

Feraligatr is still bae.

Amazing thread, Good job OP !!!

Firemind said:

I don't think pugs are cute.

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heathen

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Hoo boy, if you're going to go in on my man Meganium we might have problems Birdie

Razmos said:

Well, in Gold and Silver, Kanto Pokemon, and their new evolutions, were still king, and got more focus than many of the actual new Pokemon who were pushed to rare areas, and barely used by major trainers---to note, the Johto Gym Leaders only use four Johto Pokemon in total, two of them an evolution of a Generation I Pokemon, and overall I feel like the Johto Pokemon seriously got the short end of the stick. Kanto Pokemon were easy to find, and players were somewhat encouraged to use them due to how common they were and could be seen as reliable party members due to the fond memories associated with them, and one could easily import old favorites into the game around the 3rd Gym. I just don't think Game Freak had a lot of trust in the Johto Pokemon to carry the game on their own, so they relied on the classic 151 once again, and in my opinion, perhaps a bit too much. Thus I think the main reason many people like the Johto Pokemon enough to consider them unofficial members of the classic 151 is that the Johto Pokemon simply do not appear enough to really stick in player's minds for better or worse, and they're seen as an addition rather than replacing the original 151, which is an issue fans have with later Pokemon especially Generation III and V.

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Yes, it really bugged me when replaying HeartGold that I saw some of the Johto Pokemon could only be found post the E4 like Murkrow, Sneasel and Houndour.

I kinda want to do a play through focusing on having a team of these hard to get critters.

The Technomancer said:

Hoo boy, if you're going to go in on my man Meganium we might have problems Birdie

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Meganium was the most boring grass starter until Torterra came around.

Thanks for compiling that list of links, added to OP! Will try and keep it updated too.

Professor Beef said:

For all the rumors about Mew in gen 1, I still love that they gave a shout out to the truck rumor in FRLG.

Thanks for the lava cookie, game freak!

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Colosseum or XD did as well. An in-game trainer rhymes about "There's nothing under the truck, it's probably just a Muk".

Gen III suddenly feels so close!

I was mew-crazy as a kid, and none of the other mythical pokemon have felt like anything other than a cheap mew knock-off(this is coming from someone who likes all of the gens for various reasons). I tried all of the rumored methods, eventually obtained a legit mew from one of the massive mall events they had in gen I, and went back to the original games to obtain a mew via the 2003 glitch after it was discovered.

I think "inoffensive" sums up the three gen II starters perfectly. They're all okay, but none stand out in comparison to well, anything.

Celebi is generation II? How come I never seen one either time I played Silver or Soul Silver?

Blasian Persuasion said:

Celebi is generation II? How come I never seen one either time I played Silver or Soul Silver?

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It's an event-only Pokemon.

#152 - Chikorita
Grass

Here we are, our second Grass-type Starter Chikorita! Whereas Bulbasaur was Grass/Poison, Chikorita is pure-Grass, which I think was a good idea---it always seemed a bit off Game Freak gave a dual-type to the first ever Starter when they were intended to introduce the basics of the Type Triangle, and they seemed to have agreed as they never did it again with any other Starter Pokemon. Bulbasaur and Chikorita are roughly the same, stat wise, except for Chikorita being a bit more defensive compared to Bulbasaur and physically inclined, though looking at the two you might not have expected that since Chikorita looks much more fragile. As a more defensive Pokemon, it learns moves such as Reflect, Light Screen, and Safe Guard, thus you can it's really a team player built around helping its allies. This is nice, except I think most folks probably want their Starter Pokemon to be more powerful individually rather than being made to work with others, as solo-Starter runs are quite popular.

While there are differences between Bulbasaur and Chikorita when you examine them closely, I can't help but feel Chikorita feels a bit underwhelming compared to Bulbasaur, and a poor attempt to basically strike gold once more with yet another saurian-plant hybrid without the charm. Bulbasaur's combination of a strange, frog-like creature with a giant bulb on his back was very novel, whereas Chikorita sort of just strikes me as being a somewhat generic plant creature and the juxtaposition isn't as strong as it is with Bulbasaur, thus making the design come across as a bit unappealing. The Kanto Starters, and most of the Starters in general, are all "gender-neutral", or more or less thought of by most fans as being male, no doubt due to all of them being 87.5% male, yet Chikorita was the first Starter to have a bit of a feminine element to it, having the appearance of a pony-tailed girl wearing a necklace, and I feel like this may have hurt its popularity among many younger, male fans back when Gold and Silver was released. I don't have anything against overly cute, "girly" Pokemon, but I do recall thinking Chikorita was kind of lame and not as cool as the other Johto Starters when I was younger, and even nowadays where I'm less concerned about traditional gender roles I still don't really care for it.

Based on its name (the only Starter line to keep their Japanese names in the English version), Chikorita seems to be inspired by the chicory plant, particularly its leaves which are often used as ingredients in salad as well as various medicinal recipes, the latter which is befitting its role as a Pokemon built to support its friends. Most people though, me included, probably just thought Chikorita was supposed to a walking pear, as its saurian elements at this point are very minute and withheld until evolution, which is another strike against its design in my opinion because I think its genericness made it feel less interesting than the other Starters who in their first form can be linked to a real-life animal, though with Bulbasaur there's an ambiguity. Originally, it seems Chikorita was meant to be yellow, like in early art and sprites, but over-time has become greener and greener, currently being a rather unflattering dark green which I really don't care for. I actually still picture Chikorita as being bright yellow in my mind, even though in the show which I watched for years it was always green, because I think that color just works so much better with it. Well, at least the Shiny scratches that itch.

Going by the PokeDex, Chikorita is a very docile Pokemon, quite different from many of the Starters who are a bit more aggressive, and throughout evolution it remains relatively benign. The focal point of its design, the leaf, is very important to it as it serves as its main way of gaining energy, checking the temperature to determine the best place to sunbathe, and also can be used to ward off foes---in addition, the leaf is said to waft a calming aroma, which you'd think would reference the move Sweet Scent, but surprisingly Chikorita only learned that via TM in Generation II, and didn't learn it naturally till Generation IV despite it totally fitting its character. Sometimes I don't get how Game Freak decides on move sets, surely I would've dropped it learning Poison Power in favor of Sweet Scene given everything else that's communicated about the Pokemon.

Chikorita was easily the most popular Johto Starter in the show, the first one Ash obtained and easily his most prolific throughout Johto, the only one who evolved during that season in fact. The writers made use of Chikorita's more feminime appearance by making it a female Pokemon, and giving it a one-sided(?) crush on Ash which was pretty cute. Even though Bulbasaur stuck around with Ash through much of Johto, I felt Chikorita was giving ample time and spotlight to establish itself, and was easily the highlight of Ash's Johto Pokemon, though that's really not saying much. It seems Chikorita runs in the family, as Ash's father also owns one...well, the man who we think is Ash's dad who popped up in the Pokemon Chronicles episode with Moltres owned a Chikorita who rode on his shoulder like Pikachu does with Ash.


#153 - Bayleef
Grass

At Level 16, just like Bulbasaur, Chikorita evolves into its secondary form, Bayleef. As the middle form, there's not much to say about Bayleef in terms of its in-game use, as you'll likely evolve it as soon as possible, but I will say it's easily my favorite member of the line and, in retrospect, possibly my favorite form of any Johto Starter period. I'm pretty sure as a kid I used the line during my initial Gold playthrough, but my memories of Generation II are oddly very hazy outside of the lead-up to the games---I think it's because I ended up fucking around with the GameShark for the most part and never really established a set team of Pokemon, basically ruining the single-player campaign through cheating. Heart Gold finally gave me another chance to experience Gold and Silver "correctly", but by then I didn't have really any love for the Generation and Heart Gold is probably my least played Pokemon game ever, though my brother deleting my data of course discouraged me from continuing it further. But anyway, Bayleef...

While Chikorita's design was iffy, and perhaps too juvenile even for a first form, I feel Bayleef really comes into its own. First off, no longer is it a weird generic pear-creature, but now its dinosaur elements are front and center, resembling what as a kid I called a Brontosaurus (as of 2015 it seems this is an accepted dinosaur once more!), but nowadays you'd say is an apatosaurus, and it looks moderately imposing. Chikorita's design on the other hand always felt quite flat and thin, almost like you couldn't picture itself standing up with those stubby legs and huge head, but with Bayleef its design is much more balanced. I also think the plant elements look far cooler here, the simple cut in the head-leaf adds a lot in my opinion, and the neck sprouts turning into a collar also helps. Finally, it brings back that beautiful yellow coloring and has actually kept it, though it looks quite odd nowadays surrounded by two green Pokemon. In the old sprites in Gold and Silver, Bayleef's head looked a lot like Chikorita's, lacking a chin, but I personally like the latter sprites where it was given a sharper, more solid face, and its design has continued to evolve with a more pronounced jaw line which is a good thing.

Bayleef continues the theme of "salad/medicinal leaves" that Chikorita starter, this time based on the bay laurel, though apparently the "spicy" smell its leaves have are more similar to thyme. The buds on its neck are said to contain the shoots of trees, and have a strong scent that does a variety of things which the PokeDex seems unable to decide upon---does it simply make you peppy? Does it restore health? The most common claim is literally that it "makes you want to fight", which feels very off compared to everything else we know about Pokemon. I wonder if this is a mistranslation possibly? Well, maybe it's not fight as in terms of going out and beating up random people, but rather fight in a competitive sense and folks who smell Bayleef don't go Streets of Rage on everyone around them.

Ash's Chikorita evolved into Bayleef, who still had a crush on the dude but came with a new problem---her new size meant any attempt to show affection ended rather poorly. Among Ash's Johto Pokemon, Bayleef played a decent bit, her most famous victory being defeating all of Chuck's Pokemon on her own, and beating Gary's Arcanine in a race. Come the Johto League she got pushed aside for the Kanto Pokemon, only defeating a Houndoom, and since then hasn't had a major battle which is quite unfortunate, but not unexpected considering the Johto Pokemon were always pretty underutilized. Bayleef never evolved, meaning it's Ash's only Grass-type Pokemon stuck in its middle form instead of still being a first form or fully evolved.


#154 - Meganium
Grass

Both Ivysaur and Bayleef reach their final form at Level 32, in this case Bayleef becoming Meganium! Meganium used to be considered quite good originally due to its excellent ability to set up "dual-screen", but it seems its competitive use quickly dropped off and nowadays is seen as an inferior Venusaur. Heck, according to Smogon, currently going with Tangela, Tangela, not Tangrowth, is considered a better option. I gotta say, it's certainly not my least favorite Starter, but it's close, and even though I used one originally as a kid when playing Gold and Silver simply because I always go Grass first, but I really don't care for it, and my dislike for it has only grown over the years, especially now that I really take a good look at it, whereas I used to be simply indifferent to it. I feel the majority of fans find it the weakest Johto Starter, and the weakest Grass Starter possibly as it's squeezed between two of the coolest in Generation I and Generation III, although I know the latest Generation VI Grass Starter seems to have a mixed reception as well.

I brought this up with Charmeleon and Wartortle having parts of their design that were changed when they evolved which messed up the cohesion of the design, but Meganium takes that up to 11---besides being an apatosaurus, Meganium basically throws out everything else about Chikorita and Bayleef at the last minute and starts over, noticeably dumping the iconic head-leaf, probably the focal point of their design, in favor of some rather goofy looking antennae, and despite Bayleef's PokeDex claiming it had tree-shoots around its neck, Meganium grows a large flower which just suggests to me they wanted to go with basically another Venusaur to round out the line. Also it's back to being green. Meganium actually used to look a bit better, its original Gold and Silver sprite actually looking pretty tough like a fully-evolved Starter should be, and the original Sugimori art having a more elaborate flower with individual petals drawn out instead of them all blending together, but nowadays it just looks goofy and way too "cute" for its own good. Though I know it has plenty of fans, I definitely think this is probably the weakest final form Starter overall, though I don't think you can say it's the ugliest or most unappealing, it's just a real let-down. Since my thoughts on this Pokemon are rather low, I wouldn't be too surprised if I end up liking the probable Mega quite a bit if it possibly fixes it up somewhat. M-Mega Meganium?

Bayleef's ability to cause people to fight might've been simply part of its rebellious, teenage stage, because Meganium goes back to being capable of soothing emotions and calming down its foes through the scent that is emitted from its flower. Its breath can also restore the life back to dead plants and such, which is admittedly a pretty cool ability. I just wish it had a more appealing design alongside its neat lore. But don't let my opinions influence what you think about Meganium, because I can see how some people might like it.

Meganium appeared near the tail-end of Johto twice, first under the command of Casey, Ash's "rival" in Johto, but her role fizzled out and there was never a decisive battle between the two unfortunately. She and her Meganium popped up in a few Pokemon Chronicle episodes, but she's since been forgotten, and I don't think anyone's too upset. Despite being set up as a rival for Ash, it was another Meganium he fought in the Johto League under the command of Vincent/Jackson, who first appeared in the Legend of Raikou Special but later in the league as one of Ash's opponents, establishing the special was within the main continuity of the series. Ash's Bulbasaur and Meganium strike up a rivalry before the match, and ultimately their fight ends in a tie---but Ash still advances despite this. I think this is the only time we've seen a tie like that in a League Battle? Despite Vincent apparently advancing as well, him and his Meganium were never seen again. Like Casey, I don't think folks really were upset. Meganium had a few other appearances over the years, but nothing of value really---I was wondering if with Heart Gold and Soul Silver's release Ash's Bayleef may have returned and evolved, but it was another Johto Starter of his who that happened to.

Bayleef has the unfortunate distinction of being one of those Pokemon whose form as the middle stage of an evolution line looks way better than its final form. I have nothing against Pokemon looking a certain way but Meganium has always been doofy looking and not in the endearing way.

Can't think about generation 2 without thinking of the official art. Something really nostalgic about the way they coloured the official artwork. Makes everything look overly brighter, which is fitting since (the GBC-version of) Gold & Silver had these warm colours about them. Everything was all yellowish and felt very Summer like. I can hear the Cicada sounds just looking at this image


I also remember the first time my cousin told me about a new Pokemon with completely new starters, mentioning an alligator, a mole and a walking potatoe. Naturally I thought he was full of shit until he actually showed me them through some gibberish emulator/rom.

I used to think Chikorita was hella lame, but it grew on me. Don't like that longneck final evolution very much though.

This thing feels so lazy though. It's like they just removed the Poison typing from the Bulbasaur line and then just swapped the Defense and Sp. Attack stats.

On my first playthrough of Silver I picked Chikorita and I have to be honest I was kinda disappointed by how defensive it was.

Azure J said:

Bayleef has the unfortunate distinction of being one of those Pokemon whose form as the middle stage of an evolution line looks way better than its final form. I have nothing against Pokemon looking a certain way but Meganium has always been doofy looking and not in the endearing way.

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I feel that the Totodile line is the only one where the middle evolution didn't outshine the final one.

Meganium really is one of the worst starters battle-wise. Down there with Samurott and Emboar.

Jumping ahead just slightly because I started a new game of HeartGold on the plane today, man, Quilava is probably the most generic mid-starter evolution.

All this Meganium hate :/

balladofwindfishes said:

Who looked at those colors and said "yep, that about accurately colors this Pokemon"

It looks colored by someone who had never seen Sneasel, but saw it was Dark/Ice and then just winged it from there. It also doesn't help that the sprite looks like a weird off brand Sneasel, even if it had proper colors.

Crystal at least fixed it

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Speaking about Sneasel, he just looks so badass in XY. Just look at that smug pose

Yeah...I didn't care for the Chikorita line. Great supporter, but awful attacker.

Did two runs with one, and it was pretty awful. (What can I say? I prefer more offensive-based mons.)

Blasian Persuasion said:

Celebi is generation II? How come I never seen one either time I played Silver or Soul Silver?

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Event-only as mentioned.

Looks like it was distrubuted in the US during Gen II, but only through a few events (Six Flags and Nintendo Power; these I actually remember now).

I remember they had a Special Event for it in Crystal in-game, but we never got it in the US version (despite it actually being translated in the game and whatnot).
If you had a GameShark, you could hack in the item needed and go through the event.

The antennae on meganium make perfect sense. They're clearly based off the stamen of flowers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamen

SenorArdilla said:

This thing feels so lazy though. It's like they just removed the Poison typing from the Bulbasaur line and then just swapped the Defense and Sp. Attack stats.

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Wait until you notice the next line's base stat distribution. Now that was just shameful.



I liked the Meganium line when it was in its prime in the original G/S, but over time I feel like Game Freak's just moved on from the style of play it excelled in. In a generation where moves were a little bit more varied, but still terrible (seriously, gen 2 has THE WORST TM list, with outstanding examples such as TM 13 Snore, TM 31 Mud Slap, and the best of all TMs ever: TM 40 Defense Curl), Meganium stood out because it had a complete moveset in its natural progression that had the goal of just tanking everything: Razor Leaf, Body Slam, Reflect, Light Screen. Might not have been the best option competitively, but in-game, that moveset would just start the ball rolling against all of the AI opponents. High critical hit chances, paralysis chances, defense and the new special defense through the roof...

Meganium was basically the Pokemon that taught me to stop just putting 4 attacking moves on everything.

Gen II is my favourite by a country mile.

It is, in my mind, the perfect sequel, and adds so much on top of what made the original games so great.

Whilst I enjoyed the remakes, they didn't capture the magic of the orginal games. And to be honest, I don't think they could have for me unless they transported me back to when I was 10. I'm forever chasing that experience when I play Pokemon now.

I love Bayleef, a nice evolution of Chikorita's design and also manages to look menacing and cute at the same time. Meganium is cool too but a downgrade IMO. I don't like that it loses the head leaf.

I disagree with the idea that Meganium throws out Bayleef's design. It's a natural progression of it.

The leave was already wearing away with Bayleef, what with the hole in it. So it makes sense that fully evolved it would be gone. The leaves around its neck sprout into petals.

woopWOOP said:

Can't think about generation 2 without thinking of the official art. Something really nostalgic about the way they coloured the official artwork. Makes everything look overly brighter, which is fitting since (the GBC-version of) Gold & Silver had these warm colours about them. Everything was all yellowish and felt very Summer like. I can hear the Cicada sounds just looking at this image

I also remember the first time my cousin told me about a new Pokemon with completely new starters, mentioning an alligator, a mole and a walking potatoe. Naturally I thought he was full of shit until he actually showed me them through some gibberish emulator/rom.

I used to think Chikorita was hella lame, but it grew on me. Don't like that longneck final evolution very much though.

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Great commentary here. I feel the same about the art of those games.

Gen 2... HURRAH!

Gen 2 was probably the first game that I actively looked forward and hyped up before it was released to as opposed to just showing up to Blockbuster one day and renting a game because it had cool box art. I didn't have the internet and I didn't have any video game magazines. Then one day I walked into Blockbuster and they had this:



LOOK AT THAT SHIT. I said forget renting a game, daddy pls buy me this book. And so, I discovered the concept of "Games being announced before they were released, screenshots of said game being released, and people getting excited for them." Lugia looked like the greatest thing ever. Made the gen 1 legendary birds look like small children in comparison. Pokemon Silver and Lugia will be the greatest thing ever made ever. I still have that magazine too, in good condition ^_^

Months later, I walked into a Toys R Us one day in October... and the game was there. It must have been a week before the official launch, at least. They only had Gold, not Silver. I had to make a tough decision at that point, but I decided that getting the new Pokemon game early was too good an opportunity to pass up. I somehow convinced my dad to buy the game for me (I typically only got games for my birthday or Christmas, everything in between was a rental), and that was one of the greatest moments of my life. I have never purchased a game early before, and this was the case for the next 15 years until the recent launch of Metal Gear Solid V, which I was also able to secure a copy of 3 days before official release <3

Again, somehow I have vivid memories of this short period in my life. My house league baseball banquet was that night, and NO FUCKING SHIT I was bringing my Gameboy and the new Pokemon game that wasn't even officially out yet. This was basically me the entire night:



Everyone on my team was crowded around me for the entire night, and word had spread across the hall that I had the new Pokemon. So kids from OTHER TEAMS came to my table to watch me play. Of course, everyone asked me to play, and being the nice guy I was, I actually gave my teammates a try. Hilariously, I was stuck in Goldenrod City because I had no fucking clue how to move this fucker out of the way:



Nobody could figure it out for the entire night. We were stuck. What a great showcase for the new Pokemon game

As the days went on, still pre-official release, I remember getting stuck and calling the Nintendo Power hotline. I think it was Sudowoodo still. Anyways, they couldn't help me! I stumped the fucking Nintendo Power hotline. They told me they didn't know what to do because the game wasn't out yet. The best they could come up with was... check on the Internet for help. Thanks a lot! I managed to find a shitty FAQ on my neighbour's computer with a bunch of Japanese names that my 8 year old mind simply couldn't comprehend. When I told the NP rep that, he just apologized and said to call back when the game was officially out. LOL.

Another memory that stands out from that period was Toronto had a black out for an entire night in 2000. My family, neighbors and friends were scrambling because nothing like that had really happened before. At some point they started playing outside or some shit. I played Pokemon Gold while holding a flashlight between my face and shoulder, aimed at the Gameboy. Damn kids nowadays have it great with their fancy backlights. BACK IN MY DAY YOU HAD TO EARN IT. I was doing those puzzles in the Ruins of Alph. This music still reminds me of that night.

Good times, good times.

Chikorita and company represents what I hate most about the Johto starters: Boring, plain, and trying to emulate what once came before.

Let me put it another way--"Pure Grass is pure ass."

Water starter? Gotta make it blue. Grass starter? Gotta have its flowers and leaves bloom throughout the evolutionary stages. Fire starter? Has to have visible fire.

Out of all the Johto starters, my only favorite is Cyndaquil. Not Quilava, not Typhlosion. Just Cyndaquil. And that's because it can 'sheathe' his its flame quils. Also, it's not a dumb flame mohawk or a flame mane or a flame BUTT. Yuck.

Over the years, I'll admit they've grown on me. I don't find them as disappointing as I used to. But that's because of things like HG/SS and the change to the Special/Physical system or the anime.

Haha, what a great story, Anth0ny.

I like Chikorita and Meganium design-wise, but I love Bayleef's design. Probably my favorite starter design amongst all the johto ones.

Also, I used Meganium in a recent Colosseum playthrough and it was surprisingly useful. People always say it sucks but may that's just because it's bad in the early game of johto? And probably not that good competitively either. But man can it take a hit.

The Technomancer said:

Jumping ahead just slightly because I started a new game of HeartGold on the plane today, man, Quilava is probably the most generic mid-starter evolution.

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Quilava is adorable though.

Xenoboy said:

All this Meganium hate :/

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You should be preparing yourself for the Sunflora hate.

Chikorita is the starter I tend to pick when I replay Gen 2, though that's mostly because I always go for the Grass starters now.
The first time I played I used Totodile because it is, at least in my eyes, the best Gen 2 starter. Cute and cool at the same time. Very well designed. Also it's a crocodile.

Firemind said:

Did everyone forget Snubbull now?

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I love Snubbull. One of my top 5 Gen 2 Pokemon.

Toxi said:

Gulpin's such a cutie.

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It really is! So blobby and adorable. The minimalist art of it is my computer background.
Legitimately my favorite Pokemon. I never let it evolve when I use them.

Gen 2 starters are probably still my least liked set of starters, there's just something I find rather flavourless about all 3 once they've reached their final forms.
Totodile is pretty rad but ranks as one of my all time disappointing evolutionary changes where it basically goes full on dino, it took me until Gen 5 to finally get that croc I'd been wanting.
As a whole I'll take the cyndaquil line over the rest (I actually quite like Quilava) but often I ended up using Meganium simply because I don't take the grass starter often and visually it's a bit more distinct being one of the few feminine looking starters for the longest time.

I make no secret of my dislike for how Gen 2 handled its new pokemon distribution, it's like they were actively trying to make you not use them when you consider things like...
- Numerous new pokemon shoved in the post game at low levels, hoping to test out that fancy new dark type with Murkrow, Sneasal or Houndour? too bad, (and come on, Sneasal should've been in the ice path!)
- Other new pokemon trapped behind swarms that require a specific guys phone number and much waiting, dammit man I need those remoraids so I can get Octillery, PHONE ME!
- So many weak pokemon, often single stage ones at that, I pray for a Qwilfish evo each gen because it's tragic that the puffer fish mon is still stuck with this guy.
- Gen 1 Pokemon still taking centre stage for the most part.

And you have other odd quirks being no elemental stones until the post game unless mystery gift smiled upon you and region wise there's a surplus of cave areas that aren't exactly rewarding to venture through, which is probably why you can skip past a fair amount of them.

All that said Gen 2 is still greatly enjoyable and top the originals in playability by fixing the quirky broken mess they could be mechanically. I just think it's kind of a shame that the first big sequel for this series felt too shackled to the originals still, right down to actually having the barebones version of Kanto (where all those dark types were hiding out all along, I thought the point of Johto was that it was "a whole new place, with a brand new attitude", that's what the anime opening tells me at least.

The Silver said:

Man I forgot all about Zoroark, the Roman Reigns of pokemon, tried so hard to push him as the next Lucario.

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Such a perfect comparison, much like Reigns I enjoy Zoroark a lot more when he's not being shoved down our throats and is just another solid addition to the pokemon roster.

A problem with Zoroark is that a lot of people couldn't even get him. I felt that was a stupid decision.

Ultratech said:

Event-only as mentioned.

Looks like it was distrubuted in the US during Gen II, but only through a few events (Six Flags and Nintendo Power; these I actually remember now).

I remember they had a Special Event for it in Crystal in-game, but we never got it in the US version (despite it actually being translated in the game and whatnot).
If you had a GameShark, you could hack in the item needed and go through the event.

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Was that the time-travel event where you find out Giovanni is the father of the Gold/Silver rival?

Razmos said:

Was that the time-travel event where you find out Giovanni is the father of the Gold/Silver rival?

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No, that event was in HG/SS.

NEO0MJ said:

A problem with Zoroark is that a lot of people couldn't even get him. I felt that was a stupid decision.

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It's bad enough them doing that stuff with event pokemon, then they did it to a regular mon in the Unova dex seemingly thinking that it would increase the allure of it.

The Silver said:

Man I forgot all about Zoroark, the Roman Reigns of pokemon, tried so hard to push him as the next Lucario.

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Bayleef is the only member of this line that I like, and even then it's nothing special for me.

1. Charmander > Squirtle > Bulbasaur
2. Totodile >>> Cyndaquil > Chikorita
3. Charmander > Squirtle > Totodile > Bulbasaur >>> Cyndaquil > Chikorita

Watch Da Birdie said:

Chikorita was easily the most popular Johto Starter in the show, the first one Ash obtained and easily his most prolific throughout Johto, the only one who evolved during that season in fact.

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Really? I remember Totodile being just as prominent as Chikorita, but with a much better personality. While Chikorita was annoyingly jealous all of the time, Totodile was so OTT overexcited about everything! Loved him on the show.

Crayolan said:

You should be preparing yourself for the Sunflora hate.

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Nooo :/
What's next? Furret hate too?

NEO0MJ said:

A problem with Zoroark is that a lot of people couldn't even get him. I felt that was a stupid decision.

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Huh? That ex-Team Plasma member in Driftveil city gives you one.

Zoroak I don't particularly like. The design is whatevas to me, I like its preevolved form more and he can't take a hit. Has incredible speed, ATK, and SP ATK, but the motherfucker gets ko'd with one hit most of the time! I only kept it on my team because I thought it was supposed to be a part of the protagonist's canon roster. Post game I dropped it immediately.

Blasian Persuasion said:

Huh? That ex-Team Plasma meber in Driftveil city gives you one.

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Ah that was in the sequel though where they'd realised the error of their ways.
The first gen 5 pair of games handled things much more bizarrely, like needing some event shiny legendary beasts or something.

Blasian Persuasion said:

Huh? That ex-Team Plasma meber in Driftveil city gives you one.

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Only in BW2. In BW you needed the event.

Xenoboy said:

Nooo :/
What's next? Furret hate too?

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No of course not. How could anyone hate something so cute?

Meganium is actually a bird


Also lol Ash was lucky in Johto. He gets a shiny, and then he gets a female starter!

I was so confused and disappointed when I found out Chikorita and its evolutions are weak to poison. Poison Sting OP

Bulbasaur is still the GOAT grass starter.

woopWOOP said:

Can't think about generation 2 without thinking of the official art. Something really nostalgic about the way they coloured the official artwork. Makes everything look overly brighter, which is fitting since (the GBC-version of) Gold & Silver had these warm colours about them. Everything was all yellowish and felt very Summer like. I can hear the Cicada sounds just looking at this image

I also remember the first time my cousin told me about a new Pokemon with completely new starters, mentioning an alligator, a mole and a walking potatoe. Naturally I thought he was full of shit until he actually showed me them through some gibberish emulator/rom.

I used to think Chikorita was hella lame, but it grew on me. Don't like that longneck final evolution very much though.

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Looking at the second gen Pokemon, I think they were all mostly designed with the GBC palette in mind. It's probably why most of them have an almost pastel color to them, along with various different browns and colors the GBC wouldn't have had issue rendering.

I agree with the notion that the Gen II starters are quite plain and uninteresting. They're my least liked set of starters for that reason.
I have to say though that I felt that way with not only the starters, but with many Pokémon of Gen II as a whole. Outside of the cross gen evolutions, I don't really care for any Gen II Pokémon, which is one of the reasons that Gen II is my least favorite.

Starting with Mew, that was such an important Pokemon to Gen I, everyone has heard stories of pushing the truck to find one or something. It was probably the main reason I ever got a gameshark, haha.

I still think it's cool, but far from the top of my list of favorites. It's also the start of event legendaries, which would be the worst thing in the series if IVs didn't exist, so I'm not too happy about that.

And now where in Gen II, I have fond memories of these games, and I think their remakes are still the strongest set of games the series has seen. I'm kind of mixed on the Pokemon introduced here though, many are forgettable, but it also gave me a ton that I love. The starters capture my mixed feelings very well actually, because I don't care much for those that aren't in the Cyndaquil line. All I can really say about the Chikorita line is that they exist.

Dandy Crocodile said:

Only in BW2. In BW you needed the event.

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Nocturnowl said:

Ah that was in the sequel though where they'd realised the error of their ways.
The first gen 5 pair of games handled things much more bizarrely, like needing some event shiny legendary beasts or something.

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Event pokemon sound terrible. I only heard about Mew.

I went with Totodile in my first playthrough, but in Soul Silver I decided to give Meganium a try. Meganium's moveset was ok. I would have preferred if it could learn Sleep Powder.

Also since he just got finished with Mewtwo a little while ago, I just ran into one in Black 2. Should I use my Master Ball for it or is there a more difficult Pokemon I could use it for?

Blasian Persuasion said:

Event pokemon sound terrible. I only heard about Mew.

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Oh boy don't read about Manaphy then. You can still hear the cries of various Pokemon fans in the wind almost all over the world since it hasn't be legally available for years.