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Final Fantasy XV SPOILER THREAD

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I don't think this is a compelling argument. The "rule of cool" is usually invoked to explain away things like dual-wielding shotguns, things that look cool but exist within a story. That trailer being completely unrepresentative of the game is far, far, far too alike to that terrible Halo 5 marketing that we got. That's not "rule of cool," that's just misleading marketing.

Of course it was somewhat misleading, but we knew this because the game we have been overexposed to obviously did not reflect the omen trailer.

My argument was that it wasn't lying, because SE themselves said that the omen trailer was just a concept by Digic pictures based on the concept of FF15, it wasn't meant to mirror the game.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I was browsing this thread and I can't believe I just now realized on a very low qualy screencap that it were actually the rotting corpses of Regis, Luna and Nyx dangling above the throne:

1rS0sqK.jpg


Who is the one to the left?
This is so vile...D: I wished I had realized this when playing the game. I'd be so so much more mad and stoked to kick Ardyn's butt.
Goddamn ! Didn't realise who they were because the scene only lasted a second or two. Which is why I didn't quite understood when the guys acted surprised when they saw the corpse...I didn't even have time to notice them since I was looking at the middle of the room i.e. the throne instead.
 
Guess what? This guy isn't Ardyn's lapdog. It's the other way around. Ifrit is a traitor to the six, and the one responsible for the Starscourge. Ardyn agrees to help him because he also wants to fuck things up as much as possible. It's likely why he was given focus in the cold open of the game and treated much more like an antagonist than the rest of the six. Where do you learn this? In the official guide, suckers!

I know Ardyn had basically said that Ifrit wasn't a fan of humans, but I wasn't sure how it all fit together. FFXV continues to be Underutilized Potential of Awesome: The Game, sigh.
 
A story told in GIFs

Chapter 1 – Chapter 3: Exploring the world for the first time

pIqFiEK.gif


Chapter 4: That big battle

2015-06-22-1434991224-9436763-StanleyNodding-thumb.gif


Chapter 5: Finding power and sneaking

tumblr_n8pudc36Wt1tung41o2_500.gif


Chapter 6: Jared?

pyuXie3.gif


Chapter 7 – Chapter 8: Additions and subtractions

post-40100-emma-watson-smile-gif-Imgur-he-X4bd.gif


Chapter 9: Home appliance'd

vRcdDQL.gif


Chapter 10 – Chapter 12: Railroaded

raw


Chapter 13: Hallways of Resentment

5CVRyil.gif


Chapter 14: Realizing that's it

rTQTB56.gif


More serious thoughts
There is just simply so much to talk about with this game that it’s hard to know where to start. I guess I’ll try to break it down into a few sections.

The Open World:
Long-range traversal generally felt terrible to me. The little stamina boost thing while sprinting is nice, but that’s about the only major Quality of Life feature in the traversal options. Driving in particular takes absolutely forever because the Regelia is seemingly unable to muster above a slow roll. Having an auto-drive option is a neat idea, but Ignis drives like a senior citizen worried that they might get their license taken away. I’m not sure how to solve the vehicular issues really because while I don’t think the game needed to have as deep of a vehicle system as say a GTA or Far Cry, some level of control over the driving experience would have been welcome. As it is, even if you take manual control, you’re basically relegated to holding down accelerate (not accelerating nearly fast enough) on a narrow corridor of a road, only occasionally needing to press the sticks to turn the car. It’s an incredibly passive, boring experience without any off-road traversal, major traffic or anything like that. Hell, you get the Regalia F-Type, and you think “Whoo I can fly!” But oh, wait, you still can’t land it anywhere there isn’t a road or you crash and get a game-over! Great. For a game with an open-world it is annoyingly afraid, in the most "AAA" of ways, of letting you have too much freedom or deciding too much for yourself. Ignis telling me to buy curatives every time the car stopped. Ignis telling me that it's dangerous to drive at night, every single damn night that I wanted to drive. It just got tiring.

Anyhow, the traversal issue gets to another problem that a few people have astutely noticed regarding quests: the quests are often incredibly far away. You can pick up a quest in Lestallum, but then have a 5-8 minute trip each way to complete it. This brings to mind a comparison to The Witcher 3 where you’d go to a notice board, and most of the quests were centralized around the hub of whatever noticeboard you pulled your quests from. The Witcher 3 also had a fairly pedestrian traversal system, but CDPR mitigated the horse not feeling fast enough at times by having better “clusters” of quests.

That aforementioned trip-distance also alludes to the heart of the issue with the side-quest system. There are far too many side-quests that are functionally mere MMO fetch-quests, lacking any complexity or narrative value, which coupled with the time it takes to get places makes for an awful side-quest system. I have not done such unrewarding grocery shopping in a video game in a very long time, and it feels like you should not have quests that can take 5+ minutes to travel to (10+ minutes round trip) and then take 30 seconds to 3 minutes to complete. As a somewhat related aside, there are far too many invisible walls on rocks that should be clearly traversable by any moderately healthy human being, something that just rips you right out of immersion when you can see your quest objective but can’t climb the four foot railing to get to it, forcing you to run for three minutes in another direction to find an opening in the railing.

As a last note, apparently SE and Co. still have yet to figure out “HD Towns.” Altissa is gorgeous, but probably ⅔ of it are unexplorable, and the part that is “explorable” isn’t actually really explorable. You can look at the building facades, but there’s little to nothing in the way of exploring the interior of the city or interacting with its inhabitants. I ended up very unimpressed by both Altissa and Lestallum.

Combat/Mechanics:
I understand the concept behind the mechanics, and yet I still have a significant number of issues with the execution. At a basic, button level of controlling Noct while fighting a Garula on the fields of Duscae, the combat works. But the combat falls apart in too many other spots, such as the camera, which is absolutely wonky, often jerking around haphazardly, and within interior sections, completely loses any sense of coherence. In terms of strategic options, magic crafting is an interesting idea, but having magic as a consumable made me far too wary to use it, because I lacked any interest in going to farm it out if I ran out of it. The star of the combat issues though is the AI of the party members, which is absolutely atrocious. This becomes particularly clear if you fight any enemies or optional bosses that might have powerful AOE attacks (particularly OHKOs). Often, those kinds of enemies’ attacks are actually clearly telegraphed in a charging animation, and yet the braindead AI will keep attacking or charging headlong into some gigantic fireball or boot-stomp. That issue gets you to the reason why so many ARPGs tend to stray towards solo experiences. Once you add in party members, you need to give the player a way to mediate the role of the party in battles. The game desperately needs an AI system like an FFXII Gambit system or a typical Tales AI command list. I want to be able to tell Prompto to stay back from battles. I want to tell Iggy and Prompto to freely pop potions if they’re out of health. The “techs” are not adequate solutions at all.

Small QoL issue, X being both jump and interact/pick-up was an awful decision. And as a final addendum that's kind of "mechanics" related, the lack of clothing options is super disappointing. One of my favorite parts of Souls games and other ARPGs like The Witcher is basically playing dress-up, finding cool armor parts and making my character look as neat as possible. I'd honestly put up with a lot of poor quest design for better looking clothing, sad as that may sound. Although I suppose that speaks to the fact that often the main thrust of quests tends not to be quest design but proper rewards.

Characters/Story/Progression:
This is perhaps the most difficult and interesting part of the game to dissect. As a quick kind of overarching note, I've heard a lot of people patting this game on the back for being less confusing and convoluted than Final Fantasy XIII. And while I guess that's true, that doesn't seem like a great standard to hold yourself to, and I think there are still plenty of issues with confusion and convolution. There are concepts and terms like the "Starscourge" itself that I feel are very poorly explained. There are confusing moments when characters disappear or major events happen to them offscreen, like Ignis going blind, Ravus has a change of heart, MTs are some kind of demon-human breeding result thingy. There's certainly an improvement, but a lot of it still felt like a Japanese-ass JRPG in all the worst ways.

Regardless of comparison to past efforts of SE in the "modern JRPG era," one of the most obvious complaints about XV would be that there is an incredibly jarring transition from the open-world roam into the extremely story-focused linear part of the story. And while that is a weird issue that makes it feel almost as if two parts of the game were taped together, I think that's only the start of the issues.

I think one of the best examples of the incoherence of the story came at the end of Chapter 5, when you return to Lestallum only to find out that Jared is dead. Who's Jared you say? Exactly. We're introduced to some old coot and his grandson, his grandson gives us a tip, we go off, get the thing we were looking for, come back and Jared is dead. And suddenly the four bros and Iris are all broken up as if this is something I am supposed to care about. In Chapter 6, you take on a base "for Jared" to avenge him, again begging the question of why I should care enough to be doing this when I interacted with him for all of five seconds.

I'd complain about Cindy, but that's played out at this point and I don't think anyone reasonable needs to be convinced about her anymore. So let's just move to Luna since she's another easy target that has similarities to Jared. It was claimed in an interview that "Luna is a strong modern woman & this comes across in her relationship with Noctis. She's a different kind of heroine to previous ones." That claim to me seems to cross into the "objectively false" area. After playing through the game, I would never in a million years call Luna a good, strong female character. Actually, she's not even a weak female character, in fact, she's hardly a character at all. She's more absent than anything else. Instead, Luna ends up as a narrative contrivance that exists for the sake of Noctis without any interesting strength or weakness and thus lacks any kind of meaningful depth to her. The knee-jerk reaction to Luna would be to say she was fridged, and while that's true, as I've said in a few places now, I think what happens with Luna is worse than just being fridged.

If she was fridged, but was still a great character, that would be one thing and that would be bad enough. Think about the issue of fridging this way: you could say that one of the most famous comic book women, Gwen Stacy was "fridged" for the sake of Peter Parker's narrative progression. You could say that Jenny got fridged in The Darkness, or that Aerith was fridged in FFVII (although Inuhanyou has pointed out Aerith is probably more debatable). The key there however is that they're characters that had some amount of depth and history to them, so to some extent, the fridging is actually effective to the viewer. I cared that they died. I cared about who they were and I cared that they were gone.

Compare that reaction to the reaction that Luna's death engenders, where the problem that is that the drama and heartache feel almost wholly unearned because of the narrative progression. We never interact with her, she's primarily seen in flashbacks, very little is explained about the "history" between Noct and her, and little is really said about the upcoming marriage. She died, and I was left straining to care.

I have been making fun of Jared's death being some silly, emotional hooey, but honestly his death isn't much worse than Luna's. There's hardly any actual investment into either of them, and Luna's death is a very unearned payoff honestly, and it's hard to muster up caring about anyone's fate in this story outside of maybe the bros, Iris and Aranea. You can even take the gender-politics issue of fridging and just lay that aside. Even without any gender representational issues, the fundamental issue remains that you absolutely can kill off characters in your story, but you need to put in adequate leg-work to make me give a damn. When Jared died, I wondered why they were all so broken up. When Luna died I actually did feel a little sad, but not for Luna since I didn't give a damn about her, but for Noct who seemed sad because I was invested in him, not her. Otherwise, her death has such a little emotional investment that it just seems completely anticlimactic.

Luna and Jared sort of exemplify a lot of issues with the story. It's not that they are actively a bad inclusion in the game (compared to something like how actively gross Cindy is). They're just kind of "meh," and you can see the potential in the ideas. Again, consider Luna and her role in XV's proceedings. While I wouldn't want a complete rehash, the problem with Luna that we've kind of already seen this type of character before and done better too. It was Yuna. She was strong, dynamic (had some appropriate flaws), and in love with Tidus, but she didn't exist solely for Tidus' sake, which is what Luna seems to be. Yuna existed as more than a simple narrative contrivance to move along the story that appeared for a grand total of maybe fifteen minutes, instead she was an active, visible participant in almost all of the events.

Perhaps the most annoying issue with Luna is that you have the sections with Aranea and Iris which I think definitively proved you could create a female character and have her join the bro-cast temporarily without even remotely ruining the dynamic. Based on those two's guest appearances, I don't think there's a compelling reason to not have included a section where we interact more closely with Luna. Imagine a completely slowed down chapter in Altissa with a tragic "date night" before she gets killed the next day. Imagine how much more it effective it would be and how much more it would hurt to see Luna bleeding out if you had just spent the chapter before having a sweet city adventure with her actually getting to know her as a player.

This by the way sort of returns us back to the open-world issues I raised earlier. Having such large open world freedom early on absolutely destroys any sense of narrative pacing that the game might have. This is increasingly an issue I've begun to feel more and more noticeable in RPGs, and was even an issue I had with one of my favorite RPGs ever (The Witcher 3) just last year. If anything, this game shows you why old JRPGs would tend to limit how much freedom you actually got on the world map before the game was ending.

As fun as the first few chapters of camping out and "being bros" are, there's also a real narrative disconnect. Your dad just died, your fiancé is presumed dead, your home city is destroyed and your birthright (your kingdom) is falling apart. And here you are, some princely shmuck just hanging out in the woods, camping, fishing, cooking delicious meals, taking goofy selfies and other souvenir pictures. It's just such a strange incoherence to what the bros say/do and what is actually going on in the world. I've said this a few times, but I really feel like this game might have been better as a side-project and just have been Final Fantasy: Camping Simulator instead. That part was way more fun than the actual story, and it could have cut down on the crazy incoherence.

One other thing that the game's story made me think of was this Film Crit Hulk piece on Star Wars. In it, Hulk talks about J.J. Abrams and how he has this tendency to focus on creating "moments." These "moments" are pieces of his films that stand out while you watch them ("in the moment" as it were) as breathtaking, or powerful, but then upon reflection, you realize they haven't stuck with you. Why? Because:
They are "emotional moments" but with no real narrative purpose or impact on the story). It's all just delays and re-positioning characters for no narrative reason other than "we like the effect."
This is Final Fantasy XV to a tee for me. There's no real narrative verve to what's happening, too much of it seems to be happening to make flashy nonsense happen on screen and to try to evoke some kind of cheap emotional response from you. The ending of XV when Noctis sits on the throne and demands "Come to me," was the exact moment that I thought, this is a cheap "moment," and as Hulk points out, the reason that it's cheap is:

Again, J.J. Is so caught up in the "surprise" of a given moment that he absolutely refuses to build to anything. Forget "therefore" storytelling, it's endless stream of "and thens" and then some nonsensical "buts" where suddenly something comes out of nowhere.

And the reason this doesn't work is because:
For drama/true blue story moments are built off expectation and understanding. Even the simplest ones.

And something that Final Fantasy XV lacks in spades is the building of expectation and understanding. Even the simplest understanding of motivations or what happened to a character during a brief off-screen moment is left undercooked. If something as central as the "Starscourge" feels confusing or like it's brought in out of left field, your narrative has a problem.

Perhaps the best distillation of my problems with XV's narrative is again found in my hero, Kyle Bosman when he explained Metal Gear Solid V's story progression:

ClcvzFd.gif


I'm sure many people will disagree, but that peak followed by "wait," "what is it," "waituhheh" and "that's it" kind of sum up how I felt going through those final chapters. Although Luna is undercooked, Chapter 9 is probably the peak for "cool" in the story, as it's a downhill railroading of story (literally and metaphorically) to the finish line from there. It's a shame, because there's a lot of neat, bold ideas to be found here, and I'm disappointed we'll might never know what was really cut or missing.

Maybe someday.
 

nOoblet16

Member
It's going to stay like that until the day we get an actual FF from Nomura, Nojima.
You mean the same guy who couldn't see this game past even the pre production? You expect him to be able to make a game that fully utilises a scope and potential as big as the one you see in FFXV?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
You mean the same guy who couldn't see this game past even the pre production? You expect him to be able to make a game that fully utilises a scope and potential as big as the one you see in FFXV?

I mean, that's a complete distortion of events in order to throw shade at the guy, but okay.

Why are we throwing shade at directors again?


No, thanks.

But Nojima? Sure, why not.

What's wrong with Nomura and not Nojima? They go hand in hand.

I think some of you guys need to calm down about this kinda stuff in terms of directorial persecution.

Based on how much was cut from what Tabata showed, i think we can obviously see that a lot of these issues happen irrespective of who is director.
 

Kazuhira

Member
I was browsing this thread and I can't believe I just now realized on a very low qualy screencap that it were actually the rotting corpses of Regis, Luna and Nyx dangling above the throne:

1rS0sqK.jpg


Who is the one to the left?
This is so vile...D: I wished I had realized this when playing the game. I'd be so so much more mad and stoked to kick Ardyn's butt.

I thought Nyx turned into cristal dust after the last fight,poor guy he didn't deserve it;Maybe the only one with the balls to said "fuck off" to the old lucian kings.
btw,what happened with Libertus?
 
You mean the same guy who couldn't see this game past even the pre production? You expect him to be able to make a game that fully utilises a scope and potential as big as the one you see in FFXV?
Even if we assume that that the failure to get this project going is completely Nomura's fault, that doesn't discount his other successes in directing and designing for the past two decades. Much of which went on even during Versus XIII's troubled existence.
No, thanks.

But Nojima? Sure, why not.
Those two literally go together.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Okay fine, i am a hypocrite on persecuting directors from time to time, but only when they really deserve it, like Toriyama for essentially putting FF on the backfoot with his trilogy mess and focusing on one of the blandest characters of all time in his games(lighting, serah, dress up doll)

But i still think that based on the circumstances, the writing on the wall for FF15 being disjointed in a lot of ways was there for a while. and while Tabata made a mess of it by rewriting whole portions of the scenario and deleting characters and such without being able to implement his own concept, we know that he did have plenty more to show but did not have the time to properly put it into place.
 

Jorgie

Neo Member
Goddamn ! Didn't realise who they were because the scene only lasted a second or two. Which is why I didn't quite understood when the guys acted surprised when they saw the corpse...I didn't even have time to notice them since I was looking at the middle of the room i.e. the throne instead.

I stood looking at the corpses for a good five minutes. :(
 
Since you put all the effort into writing this up, I wanted to comment and say I read it all. and I have to agree with 95% of what you say. I keep wanting to write more, but I'd just be re-iterating what you wrote. You nailed a lot of issues on the head. My only other big issue has to do with the complete lack of immersion in Final Fantasy XV. I hardly ever got lost in this world or the story, and that is high on my list of things I need from a game.

God, how I wish this game was pure garbage. It sucks how much potential it has to be great. I've been sitting around my computer room last 3 hours STILL looking for something else to play to get me to stop thinking about Final Fantasy XV. I want something like it....but good. Just haven't committed to anything yet.
 
I dont like tabatas gameplay stances, but he sure has a vision.... that vision doesnt really translate well to a good gaming experience,and would be a much better tech demo.
 
Since you put all the effort into writing this up, I wanted to comment and say I read it all. and I have to agree with 95% of what you say. I keep wanting to write more, but I'd just be re-iterating what you wrote. You nailed a lot of issues on the head. My only other big issue has to do with the complete lack of immersion in Final Fantasy XV. I hardly ever got lost in this world or the story, and that is high on my list of things I need from a game.

God, how I wish this game was pure garbage. It sucks how much potential it has to be great. I've been sitting around my computer room last 3 hours STILL looking for something else to play to get me to stop thinking about Final Fantasy XV. I want something like it....but good. Just haven't committed to anything yet.
Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to read it.

I had to stop somewhere, but honestly I could have gone on about immersion for a while too. Again, like so many things in the game, there are some really neat ideas. The whole idea of camping out, cooking, driving, XP only leveling you when you actually rest, needing to find magic deposits, etc, all of that sounds like a really interesting basis for drawing you in and immersing you...but again it seems like part of the game wants to immerse you in Camping Simulator 2016 and the other part of the game wants to invest you in Confusing Japanese Fantasy Story 2016. The incoherence in almost every part of the design just destroys the immersion nearly every time you're about to really get into it.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I mean, that's a complete distortion of events in order to throw shade at the guy, but okay.

Why are we throwing shade at directors again?




What's wrong with Nomura and not Nojima? They go hand in hand.

I think some of you guys need to calm down about this kinda stuff in terms of directorial persecution.

Based on how much was cut from what Tabata showed, i think we can obviously see that a lot of these issues happen irrespective of who is director.

Even if we assume that that the failure to get this project going is completely Nomura's fault, that doesn't discount his other successes in directing and designing for the past two decades. Much of which went on even during Versus XIII's troubled existence.

Those two literally go together.
Maybe so but not when it comes to this particular game. If he could have done a better job than Tabata then he would have done it but he didn't which is why the project needed to be rebooted. If we are to say that it's because he had issues that were beyond him then you have to realise that the same holds true for Tabata as well, who did all he could to give us what we have while being under a clock. I mean everyone expected a total mess of a game from FFXV due to its troubled development yet we atleast got something that's fun to play and memorable in some ways.

If you're gonna say that maybe if he didn't come across problems and things went smoothly he could've made something better than what we have right now, which is true, but again the same holds true for Tabata as well.
 
Maybe so but not when it comes to this particular this game. If he could have done a better job than Tabata then he would have done it but he didn't which is why the project needed to be rebooted. If we are to say that it's because he had issues that were beyond him then you have to realise that the same holds true for Tabata as well, who did all he could to give us what we have while facing those issues while being under a clock.

If you're gonna say that maybe if he didn't come across problems he could've made something better than what we have right now, but again the same holds true for Tabata.

Except that to date Tabata has only produced garbage games, and Nomura has actually proven himself with a number of titles.

Edit: With regards to Nomura, there was also the fuckery that was happening with Wada at the time. FF13/14 didn't do what they wanted, and so SE was constantly changing focus to mobile and other means. FFv13 just kept getting pushed aside.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Maybe so but not when it comes to this particular this game. If he could have done a better job than Tabata then he would have done it but he didn't which is why the project needed to be rebooted.

But this base concept is wrong because the game was rebooted due to PS4 and XB1 already being around the corner by the time Nomura actually got a decent sized team together to push the game into full production.

Before that time he was working with what was largely a skeleton crew, very small amount of people because the rest of the company was held up themselves due to shitty priorities in FF13 trilogy, FF14 1.0 and having to remake that game from scratch.

Not to mention Wada's obsession with mobile over sorting out the actual development teams on hand that were so mismanaged.
 

Slater

Banned
Except that to date Tabata has only produced garbage games, and Nomura has actually proven himself with a number of titles.

Edit: With regards to Nomura, there was also the fuckery that was happening with Wada at the time. FF13/14 didn't do what they wanted, and so SE was constantly changing focus to mobile and other means. FFv13 just kept getting pushed aside.

Type 0 PSP and Crisis Core are not garbage games, they were some of the best received FF games of the 2000's, its revisionist history to say they weren't well regarded
 

nOoblet16

Member
Except that to date Tabata has only produced garbage games, and Nomura has actually proven himself with a number of titles.

Edit: With regards to Nomura, there was also the fuckery that was happening with Wada at the time. FF13/14 didn't do what they wanted, and so SE was constantly changing focus to mobile and other means. FFv13 just kept getting pushed aside.
Since when did Type 0 and Crisis Core became garbage ?

Also I believe that a lot of complaints about XV is regarding story and it's disjointed nature (which partly due to its troubled development and ambitious scope). But the Kingdom Hearts games aren't exactly a model example of well presented story either. If we are to talk of pure gameplay then again what we have in FFXV is very good bar some technical issues like cameras.
 

Mailbox

Member
After mulling it over, man chapters 9-13 really killed my gusto for the game. This could have been rectified if there was more meat in chapters 10-12 (or if we could have actually explored the world of ruin), but those chapters are short as fuck (or in the case of 13, too long and overstays its welcome). I also don't like the whole "go back in time via umbra". Feels cheap imo. That said, the Ravus battle, the king bahamut battle, Ifrit battle, and the ending almost (though not quite), make up for it.

The biggest problem I found was that there was a lot of parts in this game that in any other FF game would be HUGE revelations and pivotal changes but are presented with such disinterest (or are freakin off-screen) that its hard to be invested.

Apparently the Post game stuff is good, but i'll take me a while to gain the momentum to even bother.

I seriously hope they take the great parts of this game, iterate on them, and build a great story for FF16.
 
Type 0 PSP and Crisis Core are not garbage games, they were some of the best received FF games of the 2000's, its revisionist history to say they weren't well regarded

FF crisis core: 83 Metacritic
Type-0: 72 Metacitic

FF10: 92
FF11: 85
FF12: 92
FF13: 83

So I guess critically crisis core can be considered decent enough, but type-0 was not critically liked.

Unless you're talking from a personal stance, in which I'll double down and say that I personally dislike everything Tabata has directed.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Type 0 PSP and Crisis Core are not garbage games, they were some of the best received FF games of the 2000's, its revisionist history to say they weren't well regarded

To be fair, Crisis core had Nojima and Nomura with a heavy hand in the creation process. I really loved crisis core myself.

Type 0 i'll grant, even though i thought the story and was very confusing and muddled.

But again, why are we fighting director wars here? Neither tabby nor nomura generally speaking should be faulted for being put in an untennable position
 

preta

Member
I was browsing this thread and I can't believe I just now realized on a very low qualy screencap that it were actually the rotting corpses of Regis, Luna and Nyx dangling above the throne:

1rS0sqK.jpg


Who is the one to the left?
This is so vile...D: I wished I had realized this when playing the game. I'd be so so much more mad and stoked to kick Ardyn's butt.

That's Emperor Iedolas on the left.

God, that scene was one of the most shocking and chilling things I've ever seen in a game, and especially in FF. I was not expecting it at all.
 

WaterAstro

Member
No, thanks.

But Nojima? Sure, why not.

You mean the same guy who couldn't see this game past even the pre production? You expect him to be able to make a game that fully utilises a scope and potential as big as the one you see in FFXV?

You mean the director who had directed all the Kingdom Hearts games?

lol at questioning his abilities. Obviously Square-Enix suits pulled him off since they need him on KH3 and FF7 Remake.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
lmao. Nobody can reach a consensus on who "left guy" is
 

Slater

Banned
FF crisis core: 83 Metacritic
Type-0: 72 Metacitic

FF10: 92
FF11: 85
FF12: 92
FF13: 83

So I guess critically crisis core can be considered decent enough, but type-0 was not critically liked.

Unless you're talking from a personal stance, in which I'll double down and say that I personally dislike everything Tabata has directed.

With Type 0 I was talking the original PSP version which was well received critically in Japan. To the point it won most popular FF game among Japanese fans at the time. Which was a big reason there was such a push to bring it over and remaster in for the PS4in the first place.
 

WaterAstro

Member
lmao. Nobody can reach a consensus on who "left guy" is

Pretty sure the left guy is Ruvus. They're people Noctis cares about, and, well, Noctis sorta cared about Ruvus in Ch13 even though it's lame.

I thought Nyx turned into cristal dust after the last fight,poor guy he didn't deserve it;Maybe the only one with the balls to said "fuck off" to the old lucian kings.
btw,what happened with Libertus?

It's just an illusion. Not real bodies.
 

nOoblet16

Member
You mean the director wh had directed all the Kingdom Hearts games?

lol at questioning his abilities. Obviously Square-Enix suits pulled him off since they need him on KH3 and FF7 Remake.
Yes, the same Kingdom Hearts games that have a convoluted mess of a story.

I already said that I'm not questioning his abilities to make good games, it's about whether he could have made THIS particular game and hit its potential which was extremely ambitious (easily several times more than any Kingdom Hearts). Not to mentioned whether that game would have had a story with clear and fleshed out narrative (something which he never achieved even in his Kingdom Hearts games).
 
Yes, the same Kingdom Hearts games that have a convoluted mess of a story.

I already said that I'm not questioning his abilities to make games, it's about whether he could have made THIS particular game and hit its potential. Not to mentioned whether that game would have had a story with clear and fleshed out narrative (something which he never achieved even in his Kingdom Hearts games).

The original Kingdom Hearts was a well thought out blank slate that was not convoluted nor confusing.
 

Mailbox

Member
That's Emperor Iedolas on the left.

God, that scene was one of the most shocking and chilling things I've ever seen in a game, and especially in FF. I was not expecting it at all.

Yeah, that scene was probably my favorite from the game. Despite the fact they are illusions, its still real fucked up. Loved it.

Yes, the same Kingdom Hearts games that have a convoluted mess of a story.

I already said that I'm not questioning his abilities to make games, it's about whether he could have made THIS particular game and hit its potential. Not to mentioned whether that game would have had a story with clear and fleshed out narrative (something which he never achieved even in his Kingdom Hearts games).

KH1 had a clear and fleshed out narrative. It was when fluff started being added in with kh2 that the plot went wacko
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I don't think Nomura would have done a wildly different job than Tabata. The problem was the massive scope of the game and the fact that it took so long to get out of pre-production that they had to drop the XIII Fabula Nova Crystalis connections, among other things.
 

WaterAstro

Member
Yes, the same Kingdom Hearts games that have a convoluted mess of a story.

I already said that I'm not questioning his abilities to make good games, it's about whether he could have made THIS particular game and hit its potential which was extremely ambitious (easily several times more than any Kingdom Hearts). Not to mentioned whether that game would have had a story with clear and fleshed out narrative (something which he never achieved even in his Kingdom Hearts games).

You're blaming Nomura with no idea how game development works, bro.
The suits and production have a bigger hand in the logistics of the game's development.

And Kingdom Hearts makes enough sense, makes more sense than that fucking FF13 series mess.
 

Slater

Banned
Yeah, that scene was probably my favorite from the game. Despite the fact they are illusions, its still real fucked up. Loved it.



KH1 had a clear and fleshed out narrative. It was when fluff started being added in with kh2 that the plot went wacko

That's kinda the point tho, Nomura is the one who added that fluff/retconned everything, he is the one responsible for the plot going down the tubes.

Then you think about how Versus was planned as more the one game and its really easy to see him doing the same thing again. Like does anyone really believe a TWEWY 2 wouldn't curl up on its self with retcons and poorly explained shit?

Or that Nojima wouldn't 2.5 it and have Prompto die by accidental engine blade to the back, but not really die for some vague reason/the power of friendship?
 

nOoblet16

Member
The original Kingdom Hearts was a well thought out blank slate that was not convoluted nor confusing.
But compared to XV the scope was miniscule both in terms of story and game design. With increase in scope also comes more chances of messing it up, and if we are to just talk of story then just see what Kingdom Hearts became story wise when it had to expand its scope over the sequels.
 
But compared to XV the scope was miniscule both in terms of story and game design. With increase in scope also comes more chances of messing it up, and if we are to just talk of story then just see what Kingdom Hearts became story wise when it had to expand its scope over the sequels.

That's true, I also keep forgetting that 15 was supposed to be 3 games. That's more than enough time for muddy the water.
 

Jonnax

Member
See everyone is talking about the "Starscurge" online but I don't ever recall hearing that phrase in the game.

Details such as that remind be of how Type-0 also had major plot points hidden away for no reason. Though that game was much worse where sections of cutscenes didn't play until a second playthrough and some cutscenes were only viewable in the cutscene archive.
 

nOoblet16

Member
You're blaming Nomura with no idea how game development works, bro.
The suits and production have a bigger hand in the logistics of the game's development.

And Kingdom Hearts makes enough sense, makes more sense than that fucking FF13 series mess.
I very well know how game development works. Which is why I'm saying that using Kingdom Hearts as a merit to say that XV's story wouldn't have had issues if he had more time/resources is pointless. Since KH isn't even a tenth of XV in terms of scope. I'm not blaming him, I'm just saying that to believe that he could have crafted a much better game devoid of story issues and gameplay issues than what we have is just holding onto a fantasy. The project was too ambitious from the get go and it was always going to run into trouble even if they had no logistical issues.

FF13 is irrelevant here neither Nomura nor Tabata had anything to do with it...so no point mentioning it here.
 
But compared to XV the scope was miniscule both in terms of story and game design. With increase in scope also comes more chances of messing it up, and if we are to just talk of story then just see what Kingdom Hearts became story wise when it had to expand its scope over the sequels.
HlURgcm.jpg


lol
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I don't think Nomura would have done a wildly different job than Tabata. The problem was the massive scope of the game and the fact that it took so long to get out of pre-production that they had to drop the XIII Fabula Nova Crystalis connections, among other things.

Tabata deserves credit for doing what he could in the conditions mandated to him.

On the other hand, he owns the final product in his own way, in regards to what he said before release about it, how the game was marketed and how the game was produced on his watch.

FF15 is his responsibility.
 
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