Jawbreaker
Member
I'd say Undertale is a brilliant subversion of the genre. The more classic SMT games do score well; however, they aren't as critically acclaimed as the more modern Persona games.
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Yooka-Laylee: Games have evolved past this - in what way actually?
- Thread starter Yoshi
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I'd say Undertale is a brilliant subversion of the genre. The more classic SMT games do score well; however, they aren't as critically acclaimed as the more modern Persona games.
Polioliolio
Member
I can't wait to play this.
I replayed Banjo a couple years ago, and forgot how awesome it was.
If there's something 'old' about that kind of design, it's that people today don't have the attention span for exploration and some degree of focus. They need to be on railways in hallways, at least in the sense of having a game always be directing them.
I replayed Banjo a couple years ago, and forgot how awesome it was.
If there's something 'old' about that kind of design, it's that people today don't have the attention span for exploration and some degree of focus. They need to be on railways in hallways, at least in the sense of having a game always be directing them.
The bolded is definitely true, and not just of reviewers, but a large portion of the gaming audience. However... is this actually wrong for them to do? Whilst many games are defined more by their gameplay mechanics (and nearly all earlier games were), doesn't it seem a bit limiting to suggest that's what games and those that play them should be focused primarily on?
It's certainly not the type of game I prefer in general (and is a large reason why much of Sony's more recent offerings don't resonate with me), but if someone gets the most enjoyment out of effectively playing the lead role in a Hollywood movie, then it's just as valid a form of entertainment as attempting to become better than my competition in Quake.
I did for example really enjoy Life is Strange. It was one of my favourite gaming experiences in 2015, but if I were going to judge the game primarily based on it's gameplay mechanics then it'd look a bit crap, truth be told.
This can be actually rewarding to an experience or totally vapid, but when you realize how many games have their rewards built around a chance at some sort of slot-machine pull, it's easy to get jaded. The collection in games like Banjo-Kazooie or Crackdown have the advantage of being exploration as the mechanic for finding things that then expand your ability to interact. The reward is, in effect, gameplay.
I know this is divergent, but that was part of my frustration in No Man's Sky. All the resource systems were built to prevent too much gameplay/progress, and I realized I didn't enjoy the mechanics of that gameplay in the first place. It was a mouse-wheel engineered to be arduous, and I didn't find the cheese (auto-generated variation) clever or appealing after seeing how simplistic it really was.
Spieler Eins
Member
But still far better than YL. Thimbleweed Park just currently got 86%. Last generation's market leader was a 32 bit system with many critically acclaimed games.
The problem can really only boil down to YL simply being kind of trash, but certain reviewers choose the easy route to articulate its problems by throwing every game of its kind under the bus without further justifications.
Regarding the collectathon aspect, is comes down whether there is an intent behind the placement of a collectible. Jinjos in Banjo are not there to pad game length, they denote 'hey, can you figure out how to get up here?' and fulfill the same role as star coins in Mario platformers. It's an organic form of tutorials, they make you think about the environment and your abilities in new ways, to manipulate them in such a way that you reach the collectible.
I prefer the focused direction of the original, I never quite liked Tooie tbh (as much as the original). I started a playthrough of the game after BotW and yeah, not a big fan. When you say intricately designed I feel is a disjointed mess, the different aspects of the game don't intertwine in a meaningful way imo. There's a lot of pointless backtracking.
I prefer the focused direction of the original, I never quite liked Tooie tbh (as much as the original). I started a playthrough of the game after BotW and yeah, not a big fan. When you say intricately designed I feel is a disjointed mess, the different aspects of the game don't intertwine in a meaningful way imo. There's a lot of pointless backtracking.
Theslammer
Member
Most of the reviews I read were pretty clear about where they thought gameplay and camera deficiencies were and how games have improved these items. Some also said that it took the concept of late 90s platformers without removing the shortcomings of games at that time.
So the answers have been easy to find, but reading just the first page, I'm not sure how many people read past the scores.
So the answers have been easy to find, but reading just the first page, I'm not sure how many people read past the scores.
Dictator93
Member
Ampersands
Member
Don't see why Yooka-Laylee is immune from criticism when we have Nintendo putting out amazing modern platformers every couple years.
The argument isn't that Yooka-Laylee is a great game, it's that some people believe the genre is inherently outdated and not just a case of bad execution of a genre that has something to offer even in modern times.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
that quote from h
Jim seems horribly ironic considering his stance on turned based rpgs vs action rpgs
Jim seems horribly ironic considering his stance on turned based rpgs vs action rpgs
Jawbreaker
Member
It seems more like some reviewers feel the game is too much of a rudimentary vestige of a genre that highlighted the teething troubles evident in early 3D titles. To be frank, I thought the Banjo titles were pretty middling back in the day, too.
Who is it that is saying that an entire genre is "inherently outdated"? Most of the complaints seem pretty specifically about things like camera, and level design.
I will say though, Banjo-Kazooie was popularized at a time when game mechanics that let you move through a 3D space were novel in and of themselves. I think that design doc demands more clever environments and puzzles (quality, not quantity) to be interesting for a fresh set of eyes today. That's the thread behind a lot of what I'm reading in the more critical reviews.
calavera_jo
Neo Member
I believe that in most consumer-oriented reviews about art, the intent of the author(s) is seldom taken into consideration. Does every game you play need a super developed story and progression bars that go up after every multiplayer match? Of course not.
The attitude I find lame is when reviewers or gamers see it as a mandatory checklist. *Puts on a monocle* Their tastes seem kind of limited and underdeveloped.
The perception is that some people attribute the shortcomings as inherent flaws of the genre, and not something that can be addressed in a sequel.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
At release: Wow, BK is full of huge worlds with a ton of stuff to do!
At XBLA rerelease: Wow, BK worlds are a lot smaller than I remember and most of the activities feel like busy work.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
Outdated, and from a different time are shit excuses for giving a bad score. It's borderline unprofessional. You don't call paintings, books etc outdated for using older styles, but somehow for games its okay.
If you don't like it, fine.
You want something else, fine.
But to give it a bad score because you think games should do things in a different way because the calendar says it's a certain year? Get out.
I feel like this game is getting some of the same, ridiculous criticism that ReCore got.
If you don't like it, fine.
You want something else, fine.
But to give it a bad score because you think games should do things in a different way because the calendar says it's a certain year? Get out.
I feel like this game is getting some of the same, ridiculous criticism that ReCore got.
I'm not sure how anyone who'se played the last 4-5 3D Mario games could come to the conclusion that "terrible camera" is just some feature that's inherent to the genre.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Actually, Banjo-Kazooie has much cleverer environments than all modern open world games I know.
See my original posting, several reviewers, among them the three I have cited.
Hmm, I personally believe that the author honestly relaying their experience to the customer is worth infinitely more than the author attempting to empathise with an audience they can't predict.
Either way though, in cases of something like Uncharted of whatever versus something like Banjo, the intent of the author more than likely aligns with those of the audience anyway.. hence why the industry pivots in that direction in the first place.
I think this is pretty much it. A big reason 3D platformers had such wide appeal was because at the time, exploring large, open 3D spaces was novel and exciting. Now open world games have surpassed them in that regard, and it turns out not that many people actually enjoy the core gameplay mechanics in 3D collectathons for their own sake.
It's clearly not the case that reviewers dislike platforming, seeing how 3D Mario games and 2D platformers like Ori can easily get rave reviews. But frankly the platforming in Rare style games has never been that great.
Me neither, but apparently those people exist.
It should be noted that the last time Nintendo attempted a free-roam 3D Mario title was Sunshine, which was marred by suboptimal camera angles. It will be interesting to see how they approach Odyssey in this regard.
Schopenhauerian
Member
I think Spieler Eins (like Yoshi, ScOULaris and Ansatz) would probably say that the conflation of Banjo-Kazooie with Banjo-Tooie is mistaken, similar to the way in which the attribution of YLs flaws to the genre as a whole is (probably) mistaken.
As ramparter puts it:
Except that none of them say the entire 3D platformer genre is outdated, but merely that Yooka-Laylee looks and feels like a clumsy product that could have been released in the 90's. Its failings are often the same as the divisive Rare platformers of the era.
Sterling and Stark are actually pretty good about noting where Playtonic learned from past mistakes (level progression is not gated through bosses or a collectathon), but also note where they failed to do so (final boss is gated via tedious collectathon).
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
They don't say this about the whole 3D platformer genre, but of the 3D collectathon genre, Jim implicitly referencing progression after Banjo-Kazooie: "doesn't seem to understand the Earth kept spinning after the N64 was discontinued", similar to Videogamer, that say that platformers of that "N64 style" are misplaced: "a video game that could easily live on the Nintendo 64. It just feels very out of place in 2017." and I think Polygon needs no additional explanation, they are very explicit.
EDIT: And guarding the final boss behind playing the majority of the game's main content can hardly be called a mistake. If the collecting in this game is tedious, this is of course a mistake, but not because of guarding the boss behind it, because of leveldesign that is much weaker than in Banjo-Kazooie.
Jawbreaker
Member
I thought they were both middling, with Tooie being even worse than the original, and Donkey Kong 64 the worst of Rare's N64 "collectathons." I don't think the genre itself is the issue, just to be clear.
I've even pretty much tapped out of Snake Pass at level 7 now that the core mechanics have been introduced and its just busywork rotating the camera around incredibly slowly to find 20 orbs and 5 coins for no reason
like 4/5 of the coins in a level aren't even a challenge
I can't imagine trying to play through a marathon like yooka laylee or a banjo game or 7 fps dk64
like 4/5 of the coins in a level aren't even a challenge
I can't imagine trying to play through a marathon like yooka laylee or a banjo game or 7 fps dk64
Good thoughts, that's what I'm suspecting too. YL is probably a little lacking in magic, and devoid of precise reasons why, commenters are focusing on the lack of modernity. Just a hunch though, haven't played the game yet, or looked too closely at any one review.
I guess it's splitting hairs, but Sterling and Stark would probably say it's design choices like this that are dated, and not the entire genre itself.
Why does the player have to collect 80% of the junk to complete the game? Why not just let them complete the game, and incentivize collecting through bonus content? If the last 20 years of games have taught us anything, it's that people who want to collect will do so extensively even without the developer holding campaign progression hostage. People find every stupid knick-knack in an Assassin's Creed game, even if the only reward is a Trophy/Achievement.
I dunno, do you consider harsh content-gating to be inextricably linked with 3D collectathons?
Jawbreaker
Member
Hah, that's pretty much where I stand regarding Snake Pass right now, except I stopped playing sooner. It was neat at first, but the further you progress, the more it wears on you. I suppose it was more of a novelty for me.
shaowebb
Member
So in other words folks rabidly chase trends in spite of games still being good in other genres. Got it. Same as shoot em ups then. Nothing got worse, but people wanted to follow whatever was trendy in publishing.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I consider game completion gating behind game progress a good rule of thump for game design in general. Games like BotW, where you can finish the game right away, can of course exist, but I think it is reasonable to gate game completion behind completing most of the game's content.
As for collecting: The thing is, collecting in collectathons is not comparable to collecting in Assassin's Creed. The things you collect are awards for finishing main objectives in the game (and the other things you collect mark the paths to the main collectibles, they are not extremely well-hidden secrets). Would you consider it a design flaw if you need to finish most levels in a Mario game to fight Bowser of if you need to finish most campaign missions in CoD to get to the end of the story?
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I really dont think they did anything right. Im sure a new banjo game in the vein of 64 may have scored the same way.
calavera_jo
Neo Member
The author was the game developer in my previous post.
Since very nearly the beginning of Super Mario Brothers, you've been able to beat Bowser and still skip probably more than 50% of the levels in Mario (warp areas in SMB1, warp whistle in SMB3). Anybody that wants to be a content tourist in CoD can turn the difficulty all the way down and run through the entire game. There's a whole series of CoD Pacifist videos where the players just charge through the game without killing anyone. CoD and Mario games aren't really as gated as you think they are.
I cannot fairly judge Yooka-Laylee but the numbers floated in the Polygon review don't sound all that appealing. 25 collectibles per level, spread across 5 levels? Can you honestly say that those are all main objectives? That poor ratio of collectibles:worlds is not an inherent mistake but I think demanding a high completion percentage probably is going wear players down.
Ah shit, my reading comprehension is being thoroughly tested in this thread!
In that case, I'd argue that the intent of the developer imo should carry very little weight in a review. They're not the ones that are going to be paying to play it.
No. I consider it a design flaw if I have to play the same levels multiple times to collect things just to unlock the next set of levels and progress through the game.
Prior games like Super Mario World handled it better in that finding secret exits led you to bonus levels. Secrets are a far more compelling reason to play than "go find five of these for another star."
True but if the author makes a football manager simulator and the player complains that you don't play enough football, I think the author intent has to have SOME weight.
Well said. You see Sonic get this treatment a lot too ("Sonic games were just never good!") and it makes me cringe every time.
Don't shit on an era/entire genre just because you don't like a game.
That just means you don't enjoy the content associated with the forced collectible, not the system itself.
Myself included. The Source fan remake is great.
Schopenhauerian
Member
As an aside, Ill just mention that (as Contica notes) the content gating in ReCore was indeed a very serious issue, both for reviewers and for many other players.
And while I certainly agree that the gating could have been handled better in ReCore, Ive also tried to explain (along the lines of Yoshis more general explanation, above) why the gating in ReCore, specifically, actually didnt bother me, personally: one / two / three / four
Look at the word you used: Forced.
I don't like that I'm forced to replay levels over and over just to progress. I wouldn't mind so much if it was to unlock optional content.
Hell, in every 2D Mario game you could find warp zones to skip areas you didn't want to play... (of course, that was more useful at the time, since you couldn't save your progress.)
Careful re the bolded. Encountered this a few times over the years - including with myself. It's REALLY easy to not see a game's issues because you are so familiar with it. A new player will find constant minor things grievances which you or i won't notice at all. We'll know how to control and manipulate it so well we'll just glaze through any/all issues.
If there's any warning flag for someone defending a game it's "I've played it countless times and don't see any issues". Really hard to keep perspective when that's the case.