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PS3 Controller to be Wii-a-booed? - Sony invented the Motion detector

C

civilstrife

Member
Ponn01 said:
Is the shell included? Will it be standard? Will they keep going back to the shell giving up on embracing the Revmote idea? If the shell isn't included and not standard how many developers will actually take advantage of it?

There's a big difference in making the "Revmote" your standard controller with a nunchuck attachment and adding some type of motion sensing to a "standard" controller. They are going in almost two different directions. Nintendo cannot cop out and fall back onto a "shell controller" for their new console. Just like Sony, IF (and big fucking if) they tried to add motion sensing tech to their controller could not create the same experience of gaming with the Revmote because thats not what it was designed for.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

I think the shell, if it exists at all anymore, is going to be pretty downplayed at E3. Nintendo isn't suddenly going to go half way on this thing. They've commited to the revmote, and I just can't see them looking back.

People that are particularly attached to a specific way of playing certain genres need not apply.
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
civilstrife said:
People that are particularly attached to a specific way of playing certain genres need not apply.
Click to expand...

Because alienating the existing gaming audience while chasing a new demographic is a good thing.
 
P

_PsiFire_

Member
Ponn01 said:
Is the shell included? Will it be standard? Will they keep going back to the shell giving up on embracing the Revmote idea? If the shell isn't included and not standard how many developers will actually take advantage of it?

There's a big difference in making the "Revmote" your standard controller with a nunchuck attachment and adding some type of motion sensing to a "standard" controller. They are going in almost two different directions. Nintendo cannot cop out and fall back onto a "shell controller" for their new console. Just like Sony, IF (and big fucking if) they tried to add motion sensing tech to their controller could not create the same experience of gaming with the Revmote because thats not what it was designed for.
Click to expand...
Don't forget that the shell will be used for VC games as WELL as being used in the traditional sense for Wii games.

Some games, the FHC on its own will be better (the Tony Hawk interview gives me that impression).

Some games, the FHC+nunchuck will be better (FPS's will STILL controll better with 2 seperate pieces).

Some games will work better with the shell.. Like flight sims for example.. Starfox Wii.
 
PkunkFury

PkunkFury

Member
Shin Johnpv said:
If you're using 1 camera then you can only track up and down left and right style motion you can not track tilt, or depth it doesn't matter how simple the motion is
Click to expand...

You can track all positions and tilts using one camera with some image reading techniques. Of course two cameras would be more precise, and something like the wiimote that eliminates noise would read even better, but it could still be done with an eyetoy. Motion capture uses 8-16 cameras in order to prevent occlusion of nodes, not to track more dimensions, and occlusion would be a big problem for the eyetoy tracking a pattern.

Heres a video from HIT labs

http://www.hitlabnz.org/fileman_store/ar_urban_design_hq.wmv

pay more attention to the manipulator tool tracking than the feducial matts, as those are for positions of object placing.

I think it is just as likely that Nintendo could copy the eyetoy as Sony copying motion tracking, I wouldn't be surprised if they both end up with competing tech. If the Wiimote has a camera in it to sense the other nodes, the camera could be pointed at people or objects for AR games as well.
 
M

Mike Works

Member
phantomile co. said:
i don't know how you do it, but good job sir.
Click to expand...
That's the problem with me. I was a full on Nintendo fanboy during the N64 era, which is when I first found the internet and GAF (late 90's). I wrote for Nintendo fansites for over 4 years (Nintendojo and Planet GameCube).

Then I progressed from being strictly a Nintendo fanboy by first buying a Dreamcast at launch, then a PS2 at launch, then an XBox (and GameCube) at launch.

Then a year or two after the XBox launch, I started losing my hardcore passion for videogames, and on GAF, deviated mainly into the OT forum to talk about hockey and look at pictures of people I didn't really want to see pictures of.

Periodically I come back to the Gaming Forum when the odd game gets me excited about videogames again (ie Phantom Dust and Shadow of the Colossus) only to find the same fucking people making the same transparent attacks at their same hated companies again and again and again.

It's like playing a first person shooter where the enemies are always placed at the exact same fucking point in the level and no matter how many times you re-play it, never deviate from it so much that you can just start throwing grenades and banking them off walls, killing the enemy at their spawn points before you even see them.

"Okay, I know that the Phantom Chaingun miniboss spawns just around this corner, so if I throw my grenade off that air vent and click on this thread about Nintendo's controller, I should be able to read SolidSnakeX defending Sony's latest alleged ripping off of a competitor's technology."

Fun!
 
P

PjotrStroganov

Member
"PS3 Controller to be Wii-a-booed? - Sony invented the Motion detector"

Analog stick is a motion detector too.

Maybe it is just a comparable tech to the analog stick?
 
L

lancubap

Member
Only a Question: there is something real or concrete about the fact that the PS3' Controller will COPY the Wiimote's Functions ?
 
A

Annoying Old Party Man

Member
Sooner or later, motion sensing technology will find its way to every console.
My prediction: Sony will highlight an eye toy 3d as a rival to Nintendo's wiimote to prove that "we can do as much as they can". It will be used with some games, like eye toy was.
BUT, it's main controller will probably go as far as having a tilting machine inside. No way theyre gonna go as crazy as nintendo did, they have so much more to lose
 
M

MrSardonic

The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
eyetoy is a very limited technology for controlling games though. I also imagine that Nintendo and MS will be showing off camera technology at E3 anyway. Will be interesting to see the differences/similarities in approach
 
A

Annoying Old Party Man

Member
Well, sony will work the way around it. Perhaps they accompany a new, 3d type of camera with a motion sensing type of waggle (like that demo). We re not talking about major competition here, just something to give sony freaks a reason to yell "see? we have our own 3rd control too, and we dont even need it for our major games!" ;-)
 
L

lancubap

Member
Annoying Old Party Man said:
Sooner or later, motion sensing technology will find its way to every console.
My prediction: Sony will highlight an eye toy 3d as a rival to Nintendo's wiimote to prove that "we can do as much as they can". It will be used with some games, like eye toy was.
BUT, it's main controller will probably go as far as having a tilting machine inside. No way theyre gonna go as crazy as nintendo did, they have so much more to lose
Click to expand...

Well, I agree with you and in particular, there are some things to say:

I agree that there is the possibility that Sony will implement some Wiimote's functions in PS3 controller, and in this case the result will be only an Hybrid and it will be NOT a danger for Nintendo, because Third Party Editors will make Standard games in the 95% of cases, on PS3.

To become really a danger, Sony must present at this E3 ONLY, and I mean ONLY, a Wiimote-Like Controller,and this is for me almost impossible.

That's because they have already presented footages, trailers and images of many, many games for PS3 and we now already HOW we will play these games: with a Standard Controller.

Or ora, to follow Nintendo radically (and I repeat, this is the only way to become a danger for Nintendo), they must change all the GamePlay of their games.

And, must important thing, Third parties must change their games and now, they are NOT ready to switch on a hypothetic PS3-Remote, because it is too late. Simple and clear: If Sony change path, what must Third Party Editors do now ?
Next week there is the expo, and all games are ready to be presented with the OLD Controller.

Nintendo has taken a LOT of time to explain their project to Third Parties, with many explications, with a LOT of preparation and infinite discussions, and Sony, if they want that their machine ships at the end of THIS year and not in 2007, has no time to change the rules of the Play, now.

And then, there is the fact that PS3 is more more powerful then Wii: but this is a Big problem for Sony, because make innovatives games requires much time and a different team of people and this is supportable ONLY with Wii's Preconditions: Low costs (less time to develop a game, no HD and no Big Budets) and Gamecube-like architecture (and of course less time to develop because they are already familiar with the machine).

No. The possibility that Sony will present ONLY a Revmote-Like Controller is almost impossible.

There is the probability that Sony will present the same PS3 Controller, but that has done a lifting, and a "evolute" versione of Eyetoy or a PS3's Controller with some tricks.

Well, That's only what I think.
 
M

maxmars

Member
lancubap said:
And then, there is the fact that PS3 is more more powerful then Wii: but this is a Big problem for Sony, because make innovatives games requires much time and a different team of people and this is supportable ONLY with Wii's Preconditions: Low costs (less time to develop a game, no HD and no Big Budets) and Gamecube-like architecture (and of course less time to develop because they are already familiar with the machine).
Click to expand...

Please stop. You are embarassing to humanity.
 
A

Annoying Old Party Man

Member
Yeah, what i meant was that Sony will present something along the lines of "oh, besides are big guns, look at this nifty 3d eye toy, we CAN do everything Nintendo is doing too".

The thing is, Sony doesnt know how big of a threat Nintendo is (OH, and Sony is NOT a threat to Nintendo, Nintendo MAY prove a threat to Sony). So, theyre probably going to push their eye toy plans as a direct counter - proposition to the stuff nintendo is showing. If Nintendo proves the concept is right, and if Wii has an incredible first year, Sony will have to push eye toy 3d really harder. I dont know, everything is a little blurry at the moment, Nintendo seems to have really worked things out, you have the remote, the sensor on the remote, the gyro inside the remote, the sensor bar on the tv, it seems that it may be a really difficult concept for companies to copy, though its only natural for others to follow suit (if it is successful of course), Sony and Microsoft have r&d resources that probably dwarve Nintendo's
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
lancubap - I'd agree that anything Sony does would likely be complementary to a regular controller. Although that wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't be standard on the system*. It'd simply be up to developers to decide what functionality to use or not use.

Ultimately it's Sony's job to provide a platform and a market. They could make such functionality available to developers and say "OK, use it if you want to use it." and let the market and the creative community decide where things are going.

*I think, unfortunately, though it's highly improbable they would make it standard, and it would remain something peripheral. However, given the typical size of a Playstation userbase, peripherals can still enjoy a good amount of support.

My guess is that if there is any new functionality in the PS3 controller, the most likely option is "hooks" for eyetoy to help it out, and enhance that, or possibly just an enhanced eyetoy (maybe infrared? I don't know).
 
M

MrSardonic

The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Annoying Old Party Man said:
Yeah, what i meant was that Sony will present something along the lines of "oh, besides are big guns, look at this nifty 3d eye toy, we CAN do everything Nintendo is doing too".
Click to expand...

except most people realise that a "3D eyetoy" cant do everything that a device like the wiimote (+ attachment) can do.

Annoying Old Party Man said:
Sony and Microsoft have r&d resources that probably dwarve Nintendo's
Click to expand...

their gaming divisions?
 
L

lancubap

Member
maxmars said:
Please stop. You are embarassing to humanity.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I have a different Opinion. Excuse me, my Lord, if I have only posted my thought.

EDIT: I thought that we live all in a democracy, with freedom of thought and freedom of press.
 
M

maxmars

Member
lancubap said:
Sorry of I have a different Opinion. Excuse me, my Lord, if I have only posted my thought.
Click to expand...

You are not excused, pageant.

If you want to, you have to stop presenting ridiculous arguments. (Opinions are good -- mindless drivels are not)

You owe your liege an additional 5% of the crop. Dismissed!
 
A

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
I wish I could say lancubap didn't represent the average Nintendo fan, but.... :(

There are some sane Nintendo fans, believe it or not.
 
L

lancubap

Member
Archie said:
I wish I could say lancubap didn't represent the average Nintendo fan, but.... :(

There are some sane Nintendo fans, believe it or not.
Click to expand...

Ok. Ok. I want not to start a new war here, in public, so I have wrote to maxmars a private message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, for information, what is the source of this Rumeur ? I mean, I know that gamefront has posted this thing, but what is their source ? Is something that we can trust or not ?
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
MrSardonic said:
except most people realise that a "3D eyetoy" cant do everything that a device like the wiimote (+ attachment) can do.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to think, but it could do most or all, I think. And an awful lot more. Heck, you could do realtime motion capture of a player. It's kind of difficult to think what more you could want along the lines of motion detection, than that.

Unfortunately, I think a 3D eyetoy may be some years away.
 
P

Peru

Member
Getting it to be even half as sensitive as the wiimote could be would be impossible.. Half as accurate.. Half as intuitive. The most basic attempt would need a hell of a lot of calibration for each system, each player. EyeToy is a couple-of-tricks-pony.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Peru said:
Getting it to be even half as sensitive as the wiimote could be would be impossible.. Half as accurate.. Half as intuitive.
Click to expand...

I disagree completely on "Half as intuitive". Nothing could beat a character actually mimicking your own motion in a game. I don't think I've ever come across a more intuitive game than some of the eyetoy stuff.

As for accuracy or sensitivity, while a camera introduces noise, infrared is a LOT more accurate than a regular eyetoy, asides from just the 3D side of things, particularly if combined with higher resolution. I haven't seen it myself, but if the motion capture demo worked as was described by those various articles some years ago, it would be perfectly adequate, at least. It's not just purely about the camera, but also physical models on the software side to help fill in some of the blanks. And asides from just the motion detection, it could obviously do a lot more besides, like bringing your environment into a game etc.

I don't think you need worry about it showing up this year, however.
 
PkunkFury

PkunkFury

Member
gofreak said:
I disagree completely on "Half as intuitive". Nothing could beat a character actually mimicking your own motion in a game. I don't think I've ever come across a more intuitive game than some of the eyetoy stuff.

As for accuracy or sensitivity, while a camera introduces noise, infrared is a LOT more accurate than a regular eyetoy, asides from just the 3D side of things, particularly if combined with higher resolution. I haven't seen it myself, but if the motion capture demo worked as was described by those various articles some years ago, it would be perfectly adequate, at least. It's not just purely about the camera, but also physical models on the software side to help fill in some of the blanks. And asides from just the motion detection, it could obviously do a lot more besides, like bringing your environment into a game etc.

I don't think you need worry about it showing up this year, however.
Click to expand...

if you're referring to the skeleton mo-cap demo, from what I remember he was still wearing targets on the body parts he wanted tracked (hands and torso). The targets were tracked in 3D and matched to the body parts of the skeleton. The arm motions and stuff were filled in by IK. It was still very cool, particularly with the punching bag, but the camera wasn't figuring out how to turn a body into character motions. It was just tracking feducials in 3D space more accurately than a regular eyetoy would. Stuff like bringing your environment into a game would still be beyond this tech.

and the Wiimote will be more accurate than an eyetoy unless the eyetoy is coupled with an object that adds gyros/accelerometers to the user for tracking during occlusion, hence the excitement over motion tracking being added to the boomerang
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Well, this is now an interesting turn of events.
Nintendo fans can now officially shut up about Sony copying Nintendo.
Turns out what Phill Harrison said about experimenting with the motion technology since 1994 could be well and true.

I found this at the PS3 forums.
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=22789


And this is a link to the actual patent website.
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=JP11099284&F=0&QPN=JP11099284

Yes my friends, Sony have been working on this for the past 8+ years , not the last year alone.
 
W

Wollan

Member
Wollan said:
False.

edit: Oh, 'it may have motion detecting technology' is another thing. It's just false that it will be a complete Wii. Accelerator motor only if true.
Click to expand...

Wollan said:
If Sony are including motion technology it will be rush job/terrible? Sony as a company has had much, much more experience with technology like this compared to Nintendo. And they are sound enough not to just have a semi-functioning element in their controller. Please...
Click to expand...

Wollan said:
Of course it wouldn't be for the same uses like a Revmote. Aiming would still be done with right analogue and so but you get a cool extra motion element which many gameplay functions could support.

Not that I think it's true but I hope this is true.
Click to expand...



You got your whish fullfilled there mate. :D
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
Achem. Well. Technically, this design / technology isn't much different from an interesting controller designed by Logitech a few years back for the PC... not many games actually used it, and it seemed pretty gimmicky.

No one can say Sony directly copy-catted the Wiimote... but the sudden addition of motion sensing to their old Dual Shock controller is certainly not innovative - it's reactionary.
 
B

BudokaiMR2

Member
The patent arguement is just silly. Sure they have a patent, but that doesn't mean they were actively researching it lately. 1999 was a long time ago. Have you ever looked at the crazy ass shit Nintendo has patented?

The arguement isn't that they outright copied it, it is the fact that this would not have been included if they had not seen the Wiimote and made a knee-jerk reaction towards it.

And yeah...why bump this?
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Well I skimmed through the thread and by the end it seemed like people were still saying Sony were copying Nintendo. I didn't want to search through another 10 threads to find out if my "discovery" had been posted.

Thought the facts should be set right.
Sony never copied Nintendo, thats all.

*edit*
I don't go looking for what companies patent what, to much effort for me. ^_^
Fact still stands that they were using the technology back in 1999, which was close to the PS2's release.
Theres no proof to show they were experimenting with the technology now, but theres also no proof that they weren't experimenting with it for the PS3.
It obviously wasn't a viable option in 1999, who knows when they brought the idea back up for PS3.
 
B

B_Rik_Schitthaus

Banned
sol_bad said:
Well, this is now an interesting turn of events.
Nintendo fans can now officially shut up about Sony copying Nintendo.
Turns out what Phill Harrison said about experimenting with the motion technology since 1994 could be well and true.

I found this at the PS3 forums.
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=22789


And this is a link to the actual patent website.
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=JP11099284&F=0&QPN=JP11099284

Yes my friends, Sony have been working on this for the past 8+ years , not the last year alone.
Click to expand...

Intruiguing and I have no doubt of its validity, however would sony have used such technology if Nintendo had not revealed thier motion sensing control device first.
 
S

Scalemail Ted

Member
sol_bad said:
Well I skimmed through the thread and by the end it seemed like people were still saying Sony were copying Nintendo. I didn't want to search through another 10 threads to find out if my "discovery" had been posted.

Thought the facts should be set right.
Sony never copied Nintendo, thats all.
Click to expand...


hehe, junior members are so cute.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
sol_bad said:
Well I skimmed through the thread and by the end it seemed like people were still saying Sony were copying Nintendo. I didn't want to search through another 10 threads to find out if my "discovery" had been posted.

Thought the facts should be set right.
Sony never copied Nintendo, thats all.
Click to expand...

On the one hand, no, they copied a Logitech PC controller from the mid-90s, not the Wiimote. On the other hand, the argument is that they wouldn't be using this motion-tech at all if Nintendo hadn't made it the focus of their next gen console.
 
T

Timbuktu

Member
sol_bad said:
Well I skimmed through the thread and by the end it seemed like people were still saying Sony were copying Nintendo. I didn't want to search through another 10 threads to find out if my "discovery" had been posted.

Thought the facts should be set right.
Sony never copied Nintendo, thats all.
Click to expand...

There has been plenty of threads about this. If Sony actually copied the technology off Nintendo or one of its suppliers, than it'll get sued, like with Immersion, so I no one is claiming that. People are just saying the Sony wouldn't have brought the technology into use with PS3 if Nintendo did not have the Wii-mote.
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Unless we can go back in time and stop Nintendo from announcing the Wii-mote at TGS last year, theres no proof to show whether Sony chose the technology because of Nintendo or not.

Please don't call me cute, I've been on plenty of forums over the years to know how they work and I've been visiting this forum for many months.
 
B

BudokaiMR2

Member
sol_bad said:
Unless we can go back in time and stop Nintendo from announcing the Wii-mote at TGS last year, theres no proof to show whether Sony chose the technology because of Nintendo or not.

Please don't call me cute, I've been on plenty of forums over the years to know how they work and I've been visiting this forum for many months.
Click to expand...

Except I am pretty sure that the Warhawk team said they had been working with the new tilt tech for 6 months? I don't have an exact quote but whatever.

Seriously, this is a poor attempt at extremely late poor control. Everything you are saying has been said 12 times over last week.
 
M

mj1108

Member
sol_bad said:
Unless we can go back in time and stop Nintendo from announcing the Wii-mote at TGS last year, theres no proof to show whether Sony chose the technology because of Nintendo or not.

Please don't call me cute, I've been on plenty of forums over the years to know how they work and I've been visiting this forum for many months.
Click to expand...

We need to get you your own little Jr. Damage Control tag.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
They've been planning this for years, they just didn't bother telling the third party devs, all of which have been making their PS3 games with rumble and no tilt.
 
K

Kroole

Member
BudokaiMR2 said:
Except I am pretty sure that the Warhawk team said they had been working with the new tilt tech for 6 months? I don't have an exact quote but whatever.
Click to expand...

6 months? Try 10 days
1up said:
"As producer Dylan Jobe explained, the development team knew for awhile to expect something surprising from Sony with the new controller, and it came up with design ideas over a long period of time, but it was only in the past 10 days or so that it was able to actually physically implement the idea and get the game running with the new control scheme."
Click to expand...
 
B

B_Rik_Schitthaus

Banned
We're all wrong everyone ripped off the 1992 Nigel Mansell Logic 3 Free wheel :p

jpwheel.jpg


I've got one these, its shite.
 
K

Koren

Member
JayDubya said:
On the one hand, no, they copied a Logitech PC controller from the mid-90s, not the Wiimote. On the other hand, the argument is that they wouldn't be using this motion-tech at all if Nintendo hadn't made it the focus of their next gen console.
Click to expand...
Besides, there's a long history of tilting devices... Mattel/Nintendo's Powerglove (only 1 axis, for cost reasons, it's a simpler model of a high-end device), Microsoft's Sidewinder Freestyle, Essential realities' P5 glove, etc.
 
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