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Maastricht · Sep 21, 2012

Anteo said:
It is a GPGPU right? So is different from the norm. I wonder if it affects how much power the devs think it has, compared with it's true potential.

I also think in theory that the GPU should be more capable of GPGPU than on the other consoles. However, whether this can be a solution in practice depends on how well the GPU and CPU are integrated in terms of bandwidth and latency. For some purposes, it may be way too slow to farm out jobs to the GPU (still an issue on PCs as well today I think).

jett · Sep 21, 2012

Lolz at people suggesting the Wii U developer working on Wii U hardware doesn't know what he's talking about. Stick those fingers into your ears even further.

iamshadowlark · Sep 21, 2012

jett said:
Lolz at people suggesting the Wii U developer working on Wii U hardware doesn't know what he's talking about. Stick those fingers into your ears even further.

This is the part that usually confuses me the most in these threads. I mean, you would think these people actually had a clue about anything programming related or computer science in general how they parade around.

zoukka · Sep 21, 2012

walking fiend said:
Just like the PS3, Wii U architecture may require some time to be fully utilized by developers. Just knowing it's spec will not help to determine the extent that codes for it can be optimized.

Wii U ram is merely 2x current gen, if CPU is 1.5x, it can be considered in the same ballpark. What matters, is that CPU doesn't become a bottleneck;

WiiU doesn't really offer enough of a leap from currect gen that it would be hard to develop on. They are on very familiar ground and the development pipelines of this generation apply straight away to WiiU. It's not going to be as slow and painful as this generation (or especially PS3 lol) was, where devs had myriads of new technologies and tools to use.

majik13 · Sep 21, 2012

Phonomezer said:
That isn't going to happen. It'd be more likely that it's a repeat of this gen, just with prettier graphics.

personally, I dont think so, Nintendo basically made no, to minimal, hardware generation jump from GC to Wii. And basically stuck with a unique archeticture that demanded making games from the ground up.

So Wii to WiiU is a generational leap and then some. Plus it is easily portable too. Engines these days are made for scaling, so it will be much easier for WiiU to recieve downports in the nextgen. It will basically be the same game but with lower IQ.

Plus a 1 to 2 year headstart, and the market seems ready for a new hardware cycle.

But, still, you never know.

Gemüsepizza · Sep 21, 2012

zoukka said:
Who here is arguing that WiiU games won't improve over time? It's a completely different matter.

Of course they will. But how much? Do you really think devs want to pump millions into Wii U optimization? Why should they? Nintendo fans "don't care about graphics", and it does not matter how much they try, they won't reach PS4/Xbox 3 graphics. So why try at all? And it's not like 3rd party titles sold well on Nintendo systems of the past to justify that.

Perkel · Sep 21, 2012

So more shaders and textures less physic, scripts and people on screen, object worse AI.

Looks like the way industry is going.

StevieP · Sep 21, 2012

Coolwhip said:
Making cheap ports hard to do is a very bad choice by Nintendo then.

Lower-power/watt CPUs will be the norm next gen. There will just be a lot more of them on other consoles lol (of a more modern lineage of "netbook-oriented" cores rather than PPC)

zoukka said:
If WiiU development is profitable = yes

Listen to ShockingAlberto on this one

zoukka · Sep 21, 2012

Gemüsepizza;42380307 said:
Of course they will. But how much? Do you really think devs want to pump millions into Wii U optimization? Why should they? Nintendo fans "don't care about graphics", and it does not matter how much they try, they won't reach PS4/Xbox 3 graphics. So why try at all? And it's not like 3rd party titles sold well on Nintendo systems of the past to justify that.

If WiiU development is profitable = yes

Gemüsepizza · Sep 21, 2012

Perkel said:
So more shaders and textures less physic, scripts and people on screen, object worse AI.

Looks like the way industry is going.

No, this is not "the way the industry is going". If you want to port a PS4 / Xbox 3 game to Wii U, it would be "easier" to reduce shader effects and texture quality. Now try to do this with scripts, npc count, AI etc.

zoukka said:
If WiiU development is profitable = yes

I don't think devs will care that much.

Terrell · Sep 21, 2012

lightchris said:
It sure is.

(If you don't believe me, a quick search for a source gave this: http://hitmen.c02.at/files/yagcd/yagcd/chap2.html)

That's listing "enhanced PowerPC 750" specs. PowerPC 750 was capable of OoO, but it was DISABLED in chips that were required to run at low power, like the GameCube and the Wii, as they were not designed to be power-efficient when used for OoO execution. Times have changed since the Gekko and its Broadway sibling. Find me a developer to confirm or exact Gekko/Broadway specs.

walking fiend · Sep 21, 2012

jett said:
Lolz at people suggesting the Wii U developer working on Wii U hardware doesn't know what he's talking about. Stick those fingers into your ears even further.

I would say people being blind to games like AC3 running on Wii U and not reading articles fully is being considerably more ignorant.

zoukka said:
WiiU doesn't really offer enough of a leap from currect gen that it would be hard to develop on. They are on very familiar ground and the development pipelines of this generation apply straight away to WiiU. It's not going to be as slow and painful as this generation (or especially PS3 lol) was, where devs had myriads of new technologies and tools to use.

You are justing talking about things you 'think' to be true as facts, while we know they aren't, at least not regarding this particular case that has lead to this discussion:

"With the Wii U being new hardware, we're still getting used to developing for it, so there are still a lot of things we don't know yet to bring out the most of the processing power. There's a lot that still needs to be explored in that area."

I don't see how he could be more clear.

majik13 · Sep 21, 2012

jett said:
Lolz at people suggesting the Wii U developer working on Wii U hardware doesn't know what he's talking about. Stick those fingers into your ears even further.

But doesnt the dev basically say that himself to a degree?. That they dont fully understand the hardware yet and there are lots of areas for them to explore

walking fiend · Sep 21, 2012

majik13 said:
But doesnt the dev basically say that himself to a degree?. That they dont fully understand the hardware yet and there are lots of areas for them to explore

Well, there must be a reason he has that tag

Always-honest · Sep 21, 2012

I wonder who actually buys a Wii-u for multiplats. Some of the multiplats in the first year will have a slight edge over the PS4 and XBOX720 if devs take the extra effort. But it will not look and play any different to 99,99% of the gaming population. You buy a Wii-U because you want to play Nintendo games in HD and some exclusive third party games, on a new controller. The first party Nintendo games will look stunning. To get the most out of next gen multiplat games, you will have to buy a PS4, a Xbox720 or a good gaming PC. Simple as that.

zoukka · Sep 21, 2012

Gemüsepizza;42380360 said:
I don't think devs will care that much.

I think you are projecting your own personal feelings here bro.

You are justing talking about things you 'think' to be true as facts, while we know they aren't:

"With the Wii U being new hardware, we're still getting used to developing for it, so there are still a lot of things we don't know yet to bring out the most of the processing power. There's a lot that still needs to be explored in that area."

You have to understand that this is a launch-window game. They have limited time and limited resources. And I already said, WiiU games will improve over time just like on any platform. Just not as slow and painfully as with this generation because the tricks learned here apply straight to WiiU.

walking fiend · Sep 21, 2012

zoukka said:
You have to understand that this is a launch-window game. They have limited time and limited resources. And I already said, WiiU games will improve over time just like on any platform. Just not as slow and painfully as with this generation because the tricks learned here apply straight to WiiU.

Skyrim was developed 5 years into PS3 life cycle, and it is 'broken', not even as in it doesn't perform well, but totally unplayable and broken and apparently they aren't going to fix it

There are still a lot of multiplats that run better on 360 in general.

---
BUT, as you pointed out, this is very early in Wii U life cycle; it may be true that after the second year outputs on Wii U we don't see much improvement, but I would say most definitely there will be a noticeable improvement from launch till the second year outputs.

djyella · Sep 21, 2012

mujun said:
Are Digital Foundry Face Off threads going to be the best things ever?

Yes

lightchris · Sep 21, 2012

Terrell said:
That's listing "enhanced PowerPC 750" specs. PowerPC 750 was capable of OoO, but it was DISABLED in chips that were required to run at low power, like the GameCube and the Wii, as they were not designed to be power-efficient when used for OoO execution. Times have changed since the Gekko and its Broadway sibling. Find me a developer to confirm or exact Gekko/Broadway specs.

Read the text.

"The PowerPC Gekko processor is really just a PowerPC 750 with a few enhancements."

And below that comes the spefication of that "enhanced PowerPC 750" (= Gekko).

Do you also have a source to support your claims?

StevieP · Sep 21, 2012

Always-honest said:
To get the most out of next gen multiplat games, you will have to buy a good gaming PC. Simple as that.

Fixed that for you. Bad ports aside, if getting "the most" out of the game is what you care about, that will always be the correct answer.

JordanN · Sep 21, 2012

By the way, has anyone noticed how certain dev's are allowed to talk about the hardware?

Like, if the CPU/GPU/RAM can all be brought to attention with presumably no consequence, why doesn't a developer just get it over with and reveal the specs?

MrNyarlathotep · Sep 21, 2012

jett said:
Lolz at people suggesting the Wii U developer working on Wii U hardware doesn't know what he's talking about. Stick those fingers into your ears even further.

Well his job title as stated in the article is producer and not, say, technical director or lead engine programmer, so it's not like he's automatically talking from a position of authority or is what most people would consider as a 'dev'.

zoukka · Sep 21, 2012

walking fiend said:
BUT, as you pointed out, this is very early in Wii U life cycle; it may be true that after the second year outputs on Wii U we don't see much improvement, but I would say most definitely there will be a noticeable improvement from launch till the second year outputs.

Here's the thing. Even if we had tapped 100% of any console day1, the games would still improve. It's not magic, it's just the way things go. Budgets get bigger with the audience, bigger devs join in, tools and pipelines are always refined and the longer you stay on a closed platform, those tools keep on improving.

Well his job title as stated in the article is producer and not, say, technical director or lead engine programmer, so it's not like he's automatically talking from a position of authority or is what most people would consider as a 'dev'.

Whatever the producer blurts out considering tech he knows only because he heard it from the coders. Producers are the last people on the team to downplay anything...

mysteriousmage09 · Sep 21, 2012

Perkel said:
So more shaders and textures less physic, scripts and people on screen, object worse AI.

Looks like the way Nintendo is going.

Fixed that for ya

Dennis · Sep 21, 2012

Always-honest · Sep 21, 2012

StevieP said:
Fixed that for you. Bad ports aside, if getting "the most" out of the game is what you care about, that will always be the correct answer.

Except for the games that aren't on pc ofcourse.

Teletraan1 · Sep 21, 2012

Always-honest said:
I wonder who actually buys a Wii-u for multiplats. Some of the multiplats in the first year will have a slight edge over the PS4 and XBOX720 if devs take the extra effort. But it will not look and play any different to 99,99% of the gaming population. You buy a Wii-U because you want to play Nintendo games in HD and some exclusive third party games, on a new controller. The first party Nintendo games will look stunning. To get the most out of next gen multiplat games, you will have to buy a PS4, a Xbox720 or a good gaming PC. Simple as that.

My idea for next gen was to upgrade my PC next month and get a Wii U. Then buy one of the other 2 at a much later date. There are still games that dont come out on PC for whatever reason such as Tekken TT2 or RDR but still come out on multiplatform consoles. I am hoping that the WiiU will be good enough to get a decent version of these types of games for the next few years. Along with the obvious Nintendo titles.

These comments from devs are kind of a letdown in that regard. But ill get over it.

DaSorcerer7 · Sep 21, 2012

"Developing on new hardware in itself was a challenge, and also making that launch date was a challenge," he said. "But from a visual standpoint, based on the performance of the Wii U, we knew the game had the capability of having much better graphics than games on PS3 and Xbox 360. Make no mistake, from a visual standpoint, it is able to produce better graphics. So our challenge was to make a higher quality graphics. We were able to meet that."

Nice

Gemüsepizza · Sep 21, 2012

zoukka said:
I think you are projecting your own personal feelings here bro.[...]

Not really, "bro". It is just logical. The great majority of Nintendo fans / buyers do not care about graphics. In the past, third party game sales were bad on Nintendo systems. PS4 and XBox 3 will soon leave Wii U behind. It does not make sense, from an economical point of view, to invest much in optimising graphics on Wii U ports. They will do some optimization on current gen ports, if it does not take too much effort like higher framerates, anti-aliasing etc, but that's it. Most of the power will probably be used to make porting easier. And I am very pessimistic about next gen games. I don't think there will be many ports, and they are probably just quick cash-ins.

Always-honest · Sep 21, 2012

Teletraan1 said:
My idea for next gen was to upgrade my PC next month and get a Wii U. Then buy one of the other 2 at a much later date. There are still games that dont come out on PC for whatever reason such as Tekken TT2 or RDR but still come out on multiplatform consoles. I am hoping that the WiiU will be good enough to get a decent version of these types of games for the next few years. Along with the obvious Nintendo titles.

These comments from devs are kind of a letdown in that regard. But ill get over it.

Sounds like a good plan if you have the money.

Terrell · Sep 21, 2012

lightchris said:
Read the text.

"The PowerPC Gekko processor is really just a PowerPC 750 with a few enhancements."

And below that comes the spefication of that "enhanced PowerPC 750" (= Gekko).

Do you also have a source to support your claims?

Yeah, that the original hardware leaks make ZERO mention of it whatsoever, as do the vast majority of websites that have the specs reported on them.

And this, from the Wikipedia page for out-of-order execution:

The logical complexity of the out-of-order schemes was the reason that this technique did not reach mainstream machines until the mid-1990s. Many low-end processors meant for cost-sensitive markets still do not use this paradigm due to large silicon area that is required to build this class of machine. Low power usage is another design goal that's harder to achieve with an OoOE design.

The bolded rules out the Gamecube and the Wii ENTIRELY. OoOE chips had been widely inaccessible outside of the PC space.

StevieP · Sep 21, 2012

Always-honest said:
Except for the games that aren't on pc ofcourse.

And those will always be "best" on the consoles they were designed to play on. If you want to talk about the best for multiplatform, you can't usually include a console into the discussion.

zoukka · Sep 21, 2012

Gemüsepizza;42380761 said:
Not really, "bro". It is just logical. The great majority of Nintendo fans / buyers do not care about graphics. In the past, third party game sales were bad on Nintendo systems. PS4 and XBox 3 will soon leave Wii U behind. It does not make sense, from an economical point of view, to invest much in optimising graphics on Wii U ports. They will do some optimization on current gen ports, if it does not take too much effort like higher framerates, anti-aliasing etc, but that's it. Most of the power will probably be used to make porting easier. And I am very pessimistic about next gen games. I don't think there will be many ports, and they are probably just quick cash-ins.

See this is where you are just factually wrong. Every single gamer out there cares about graphics. Especially so if the 3rd party support for WiiU widens.

And the second bolded sentece makes no sense at all. Either the investment carries profit or not. That is entirely dependant on game sales.

Always-honest · Sep 21, 2012

StevieP said:
And those will always be "best" on the consoles they were designed to play on. If you want to talk about the best for multiplatform, you can't usually include a console into the discussion.

No, but do you think there is one person here who doesn't know that?

lightchris · Sep 21, 2012

Terrell said:
Yeah, that the original hardware leaks make ZERO mention of it whatsoever, as do the vast majority of websites that have the specs reported on them.

And this, from the Wikipedia page for out-of-order execution:

The bolded rules out the Gamecube and the Wii ENTIRELY. OoOE chips had been widely inaccessible outside of the PC space.

The normal PPC 750CXe, which of you approved that it has OoOE, has a TDP of 6 W (and that was in 180 nm): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures#PowerPC

Well fits in the power budget of Gamecube and Wii if you ask me.

Sorry, but for now I'll stick to what the developer of a Gamecube emulator said.

fabricated backlash · Sep 21, 2012

Onion_Relish said:
So its cpu is slower than consoles from 7 years ago... So basically the Wii u is like a 12 year old pc? Only based Nintendo can get away with this kind of shit. It is almost apple levels of evil profit margins.

My 2012 i7 has slower clock rates per core than my Pentium 4 had... Only Intel can get away with this kind of shit.

StevieP · Sep 21, 2012

Always-honest said:
No, but do you think there is one person here who doesn't know that?

Maybe, maybe not. But you yourself drew an arbitrary "line in the sand" in regards to the Wii U's capability by stating "To get the most out of next gen multiplat games, you will have to buy a PS4, a Xbox720 or a good gaming PC. Simple as that."

By the same logic, why even bother with what you consider an "inferior" port when you can have it better? As I'd stated - bad ports aside, the PC version is almost always going to get you "the most" out of it. I don't personally follow the line of logic that makes me dismiss all platforms that aren't the best one (though I do buy 95% of my software on my PC rather than my consoles for a multitude of reasons), but I see it quite commonly on this forum used to draw these arbitrary and unnecessary lines.

ThoseDeafMutes · Sep 21, 2012

Afrikan said:
360 had dev kits out for much longer and had engines built suited for its system.

Yeah but Wii dev kits started going out to developers in 2000/2001

Always-honest · Sep 21, 2012

StevieP said:
Maybe, maybe not. But you yourself drew an arbitrary "line in the sand" in regards to the Wii U's capability by stating "To get the most out of next gen multiplat games, you will have to buy a PS4, a Xbox720 or a good gaming PC. Simple as that."

By the same logic, why even bother with what you consider an "inferior" port when you can have it better? As I'd stated - bad ports aside, the PC version is almost always going to get you "the most" out of it. I don't personally follow the line of logic that makes me dismiss all platforms that aren't the best one (though I do buy 95% of my software on my PC rather than my consoles for a multitude of reasons), but I see it quite commonly on this forum used to draw these arbitrary and unnecessary lines.

Ah right. i just said that because not everyone will buy a pc. They'll choose a console because they can play the multiplats and the exlusives they like on one machine. Ofcourse the ultimate version will be on pc in 99,9 % of all games ( 0,1% being the odd shitty port that somehow runs worse on pc). If the ultimate version in graphical performance and resolution, etc is what you want, you'll need to buy a good gaming pc. People will have their own reasons to do or not do that.

mrklaw · Sep 21, 2012

Durante said:
Are all of you "clock speed doesn't matter, out-of-order, they don't know how to use it effectively" people aware that it is usually much easier to extract perfromance from an out-of-order architecture than an in-order architecture? (Do you even know what OOE is?)

but if developers have been used to engines running on in-order CPUs for 5-6 years now, won't it require more work to get an out of order CPU running efficiently?

Terrell · Sep 21, 2012

lightchris said:
The normal PPC 750CXe, which of you approved that it has OoOE, has a TDP of 6 W (and that was in 180 nm): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures#PowerPC

Sorry, I couldn't quite catch that, got hung up on "This article needs additional citations for verification" and "This article's factual accuracy is disputed" warnings.

lightchris said:
Sorry, but for now I'll stick to what the developer of a Gamecube emulator said.

You mean that page you referenced where the author openly admits that it contains "semi-accurate information" and "guesswork"? K. Personally, I'd prefer to quote sources that don't flag themselves as factually inaccurate, but that's maybe just me being picky, I suppose.

Windom Earle · Sep 21, 2012

So to save costs, Nintendo duct taped three Wii CPUs together. What a smart move to cripple a seemingly capable GPU like that. With a weak CPU they will never get GTA...

Jonm1010 · Sep 21, 2012

So the CPU I guess is this Nintendo generations baffling design choice. That and the VC crap.

I knew one was coming but kinda thought it'd be something with online functionality but that actually looks decent so far.

lightchris · Sep 21, 2012

Terrell said:
Sorry, I couldn't quite catch that, got hung up on "This article needs additional citations for verification" and "This article's factual accuracy is disputed" warnings.

You mean that page you referenced where the author openly admits that it contains "semi-accurate information" and "guesswork"? K. Personally, I'd prefer to quote sources that don't flag themselves as factually inaccurate, but that's maybe just me being picky, I suppose.

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/0E7882415E9EE987872569FF0077ACF4/$file/750cxe_ds_dd2.4.pdf

Page 14 for power consumption specs.

Btw, you're the first person I've come across who claims that Gekko and Broadway don't have OoOE. While that doesn't necessarily means that you are wrong, it'd be way more believeable if you could provide actual sources for your claims.

AzaK · Sep 21, 2012

mujun said:
Are Digital Foundry Face Off threads going to be the best things ever?

Bring it!

madmackem said:
Its a big selling point in japan if im not mistaken, also lower power less heat.

Yeah, which unfortunately sucks for the rest of us who really don't care about a few more watts or a large console.

HAL_Laboratory · Sep 21, 2012

These CPU statements are dumb. Why do developers think launch titles are indicative of a console's potential?

Mastperf · Sep 21, 2012

Durante said:
No it doesn't.

The lack of knowledge and willful distortion of facts on both sides of this "debate" is exhausting. I'll excuse myself.

Haha, you lasted a lot longer than I expected. These threads are starting to make me insane. So much misinformation...

EVIL · Sep 21, 2012

Phonomezer said:
That isn't going to happen. It'd be more likely that it's a repeat of this gen, just with prettier graphics.

You are forgetting that allot of third party is currently working with ps3/360 level engine tech, and the wiiU will greatly benefit from this group. The high end next gen is the one who will have something to worry about since it is much cheaper to develop for a console using current gen tech then invest in expensive middle ware or invest in building new tech to take advantage of the ps4/720

Lets say I am a third party developer, I have had succesful projects done on 360 and ps3. its now 2012 and both consoles are losing momentum and here comes nintendo, who had massive succes with the wii, and is now delivering a console who matches current gen tech and can go beyond that. So in order to develop for this console, I don't have to wait for new middleware, or spend allot of money building new tech, I can use unreal engine 3 out of the box. and the console leaves room for improvements. This is very attractive for a developer. since the only they they need to invest in is getting devkits. Its also safe for them, since they can develop for the 360, ps3, AND wiiU now, which means an extra platform to get sales from.

So in this regard, I think the wiiU will get allot of 3rd party support.

AzaK · Sep 21, 2012

I'm in the Wii U is more powerful than current gen camp but looking at those Halo 4 shots, it's hard to see how it could look much/any better given the modest bump.

maquiladora · Sep 21, 2012

Onion_Relish said:
So its cpu is slower than consoles from 7 years ago...

Reverse next gen?

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