Eolz
Member
Yep. Even if it's not tegra it'll likely be vita tier at worst anyway.
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SemiAccurate: Nintendo NX handheld to use Nvidia Tegra-based Soc
- Thread starter Fourth Storm
- Start date
Yep. Even if it's not tegra it'll likely be vita tier at worst anyway.
GhostTrick
Banned
Any low end phone nowaday is faster than Vita. Vita is a 28gflops handheld. 150 dollars chinese smartphones outperform it by a wide margin. But what makes it hard to perceive is two things:
1. Lack of high budget phone games
2. High resolution screens
If NX handheld is on par or slower than Vita... Nintendo would do it on purpose. In fact, Nintendo would have to do it on purpose if it's not 2 to 3 times faster than Vita.
Thanks, i was expecting this, but just wanted to know.
Vita was very good when it came out (despite having way too low clockspeeds both on the CPU and on the GPU), but considering how fast mobile tech has been evolving in the last few years, it's a bit outdated now. So yes, should be pretty easy for Nintendo to make a portable console considerably more powerful than the Vita now, while still being cheap and power efficient.
What if Nintendo open a mall where there can be different markets.. Such as steam, ea or Amazon.. I know it's too wishful thinking
Possumowner
Member
Yep,your definitely right,I hadn't even given mobile phone technology a thought.So,that's me excited for the handheld,well even more excited
Actually there is something that people don't talk about, regarding the level of graphics on the portable NX.
Portable Nintendo consoles are the base entry level of production value for Japanese devs. If the NX is anything between 2x Vita and WiiU, a looot of portable games won't even use it's resources to the max, for simple budget problems.
But that means something that powerful for a Nintendo portable will be glorious.
GhostTrick
Banned
Well, it doesnt' mean these games need to use all the ressources. A common thing I seen is the reason Vita wasnt supported was that it was too powerful for small budget titles... This is wrong. Your hardware is never TOO powerful for a game.
The audience that want's small budget titles isn't likely to pay for a high budget hardware. So yes hardware can be too powerful, but in the sense that it makes it too expensive for a certain audience.
Eh, I don't know much, but I am sure the 3DS and Vita have games that don't use all the resources from their hardware, and people still buy them. A ton of japanese games, really.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Nintendo is also on record stating they know the low-powered CPU was a major issue with Wii U.
Eolz
Member
Yep.
Whatever the hardware, there'll be some devs pushing the hardware, some not doing much with it. That's not really a problem nor have an impact on sales (as long as the hw is reasonably priced obv).
Capcom and Nintendo are good examples of the former on 3DS.
Total tech nnob question here:
What would the battery life for the handheld NX be if it packs an X1 and Nintendo makes high profile games for it (which if those demos are anything to go by, we're talking about something more powerful than a WiiU)? Wouldn't it run to 0% after one or two hours? Or is the X1 super power efficent?
What would the battery life for the handheld NX be if it packs an X1 and Nintendo makes high profile games for it (which if those demos are anything to go by, we're talking about something more powerful than a WiiU)? Wouldn't it run to 0% after one or two hours? Or is the X1 super power efficent?
3DS and Vita both released in 2011, right? Vita released in 2012 in the western world.
Both 3DS' Pica200 and VITA's PowerVR SGX underlying architectures (re: not so much the implementations, number of GPU cores in Vita) were getting old even then, in 2011. Digital Media Professionals Pica200 GPU is an implementation of their MAESTRO architecture (aka ULTRAY2000) announced at SIGGRAPH 2005 and shown at SIGGRAPH 2006.
http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2005/07/26/101.html
Likewise, PowerVR SGX architecture was announced in 2005 also.
https://imgtec.com/news/press-relea...er-graphics-family-for-wireless-applications/
So nevermind how ancient the GPU architectures in 3DS and VITA are now, in 2016, they were old 5 years ago.
All that leads me to my point:
I think that Nintendo's next handheld, whatever processor/GPU/SoC it's using, can have awesome looking games compared to what we are used to with current dedicated handheld game systems.
Both 3DS' Pica200 and VITA's PowerVR SGX underlying architectures (re: not so much the implementations, number of GPU cores in Vita) were getting old even then, in 2011. Digital Media Professionals Pica200 GPU is an implementation of their MAESTRO architecture (aka ULTRAY2000) announced at SIGGRAPH 2005 and shown at SIGGRAPH 2006.
http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2005/07/26/101.html
Likewise, PowerVR SGX architecture was announced in 2005 also.
https://imgtec.com/news/press-relea...er-graphics-family-for-wireless-applications/
So nevermind how ancient the GPU architectures in 3DS and VITA are now, in 2016, they were old 5 years ago.
All that leads me to my point:
I think that Nintendo's next handheld, whatever processor/GPU/SoC it's using, can have awesome looking games compared to what we are used to with current dedicated handheld game systems.
TwilightPrincess
Member
If they clock it down a bit and use a not to weak/small accu it should be fine. Nintendo won´t release a handheld which only lasts one hour. But they did release a handheld which lasted only about 3 hours (original 3ds) if i am right. I would think of that as the minimum and i think that would be possible with a clocked down X1 or Parker. The question would be to what extent nintendo would have to clock it down.
It will be very likely. Nintendo almost needs to put conscious effort to not outmatch the vita:
1 - NX handheld probably 2018 device;
2 - Mobile technology advanced a great deal since the 3DS/vita releases;
3 - NX handheld will share the same architecture as NX home, so this probably means a modern setup (see 2);
However once again my guess is that it will be the ultimate SD machine, I'm thinking more the main screen could be gamepad equivalant at 480p instead of a 540p vita-like screen (which people are believing because of the 1080/2=540 math).
James Scott
Banned
Despite being pretty weak, the 3DS also had an abysmal battery life even when compared to the Vita. It's pretty odd, not sure if the sleep mode on Vita is done differently, but the Vita can last weeks with one charge and the 3DS can last days.
I do wonder how much it costs to make a Vita, not sure if Sony ever said. Might help when figuring out the price.
Googled it and the only result that showed up said Sony was making $180 per unit...which is more than likely incorrect.
I do wonder how much it costs to make a Vita, not sure if Sony ever said. Might help when figuring out the price.
Googled it and the only result that showed up said Sony was making $180 per unit...which is more than likely incorrect.
fabricated backlash
Member
The Vita and its great indie and small Japanese Dev Support says otherwise.
My understanding (which is extremely limited) is that the Vita was built with standard mobile parts or something of the sort to keep costs down, whereas 3DS' costs were somewhat bloated because Nintendo uses weird custom parts.
James Scott
Banned
Too much power isn't an issue as long as the install base is there. There's an extra credits video explaining it
Yeah, but making $180 off of a $250 device when they sold their $400 console at a loss seems unlikely.
I imagine paying for the 3D tech (as well as the gamepad on the Wii U) bloated costs seeing as they can now sell the base 3DS specs (2DS) at $80 bucks.
But the article is still pretty suspect and it got spread around.
Dont' think Sony would've charged so much for the system if they were making so much off of each unit.
Actually, most believe it's 540p because someone (an insider I think?) said some time ago here in GAF that the NX handheld screen would be better than 480p but definitely not what most people expected as a "decent upgrade" aka not 720p either.
Everyone assumed it was 540p since it's the best size in between.
And despite that the system doesn't sell, proving the posters point.
Dark Cloud
Member
The Vita doesn't sell at all...so no that doesn't say otherwise. It's a huge flop just like the Wii U.
Mithos
Member
fabricated backlash
Member
Not really, it shows that despite Games like Killzone, small Budget games still sell. Vitas failure is completely down to Sonys ineptitude, not the unwilligness of people buying high end portables. In fact the price alone should have broken Nintendos neck, so it goes to show how colossal sonys screw up was when Handling the platform.
With asset libraries, better Engine scalability and decreased entry hurdles, small Devs wouldn't be at a big disadvantage, even if they don't use all the Hardware Power. Especially on Handhelds this has been proven true over and over again.
Graphics Horse
Member
I thought standby was one of the worst things about it, putting DS and PSP to sleep didn't feel like a gamble like it did with the 3DS.Übermatik;203715168 said:
LordOfChaos
Member
Really? Their competitors hardware has more pricey APUs, the Wii U only has the GPU from AMD, and the sales kind of speak for themselves. Why would you expect AMD to put much marketing budget into pushing the Wii U? Especially as Nintendo themselves wasn't able to turn the boat. AMD is a company with very limited resources that are barely staying floating these days. The other two consoles provided not huge but consistent revenue, so of course they'd promote those. It's just survival.
Nvidia is no stranger to treating its console partners poorly either, not complying with shrink schedules and retaining full control over its own chips rather than letting the other company shrink and customize as needed, etc. AMD has been the most malleable partner due to their tenuous market position, hence why they landed so many wins. Same with the FirePros in the Mac Pro, agreeing to such cheap Firepros.
USB C or MicroUSB plox...Don't be weird.
Is there any actual evidence that there's a sizable market for a high powered portable? Has that ever actually happened? I guess there's the PSP, but from what I recall of it, it died off pretty quick in North America, and only took of later in Japan when the system sellers came out.
What I'd take away is that there might still be a market for portable systems, but it's almost entirely a matter of how appealing the software is. I don't think there's a huge market for people who are interested in powerful hardware.
We obviously don't know and thats totally unrelated. Architecture doesn't tell us anything what will be packed in.
James Scott
Banned
Ok, did a bit of research to the 2012 era internet coverage.
Sony said they were going to be taking a loss on the system hoping to be profitable after 3 years.
Some random site said the Vita only costs $160 and Sony was somehow making $180 on Vitas (3G?) and some other sites accused Sony of lying which is pretty funny.
Still haven't found how much they were making/losing, though.
I'd imagine they'll want to make their handheld profitable if they went on record that they want the NX to be profitable, not sure if we can use the Vita's price to pin point that.
Sony said they were going to be taking a loss on the system hoping to be profitable after 3 years.
Some random site said the Vita only costs $160 and Sony was somehow making $180 on Vitas (3G?) and some other sites accused Sony of lying which is pretty funny.
Still haven't found how much they were making/losing, though.
I'd imagine they'll want to make their handheld profitable if they went on record that they want the NX to be profitable, not sure if we can use the Vita's price to pin point that.
fabricated backlash
Member
Vita was sold at Profit(as far as I know), so yeah Nintendo could easily bring out a high(ish) end Handheld and then iterate on it as years go by, not being locked in with overly obscure architectures decreases production costs and allows for faster and easier iterations as new Tech is available or when old Tech becomes too costly to keep around.
Mind you, I still think the new Nintendo Handheld will sport very conservative specs, but if they use more Standard Hardware that already means a huge jump over 3DS and possibly Vita.
As for this rumour... Yeah I don't believe NVIDIA would be interested in this Market. Especially one that wouldn't allow for their usual Premium margins
Thanks for clarification. I don't want to look suspicious toward a fellow gaffer with 12 years history, but how reliable is Matt?
Here is a list of common displays I sorted out from wikipedia:
960x540 (16:9) (qHD) (vita)
854x480 (16:9) (FWVGA) (gamepad)
768x480 (16:10) (WVGA)
640x360 (16:9) (nHD)
480x272 (16:9) (psp)
2x400x240 (16:10) (3DS)
720p is clearly a huge jump for Nintendo, and for a <250$ device. The screen is something in cost and power consumption, but the CPU/GPU feeding it too.
IMO Nintendo is looking anywhere here but very unlikely above 540p.
And that's assuming the general consensus saying they drop 3D.
I guess my point is, people want their hardware to be utilized and pushed, I mean why have all that hardware if youre not going to use it is the thought process people have and visuals and scale has always been the most discernible way of showing such improvements, which is why you always see high budget games at the forefront of hardware reveals. People are more than happy to play smaller, indie games (which are also capable of looking good and being huge in scale) but they want blockbusters to sell them on the systems capabilities, which we all know go beyond better visuals but that's the easiest to market. Although the Vita and PS4 aren't the bastion of high end hardware, its been shown that both are capable of producing great visuals and whether or not you or I agree with this mentality, people want hardware to be pushed to its limits as a means to validate their purchase, which is why there's such a yearning for more powerful hardware. There are many merits to having powerful hardware, but better visuals are the easiest use case by the average consumer to understand. It's also a major reasoning as to why people automatically write off a system with weaker hardware on paper even if in the end the games still look great, which is the case for Nintendo's titles on the Wii U, which look great.
Smaller games sell well and usually garner great attach rations, and some people indeed purchase consoles because of these smaller titles but not unlike Nintendo's own games they don't do much to move hardware alone. People want to see their 8 GB ram and quad core processors working hard. People with crazy GFX cards, high-end processors and bucket loads of ram in their PCs are more than happy to play smaller, simpler games on their systems but that hardware is usually there for a reason, and like a person who buys a super-car, they want to hear it 'roar', but that doesn't mean they won't drive it to the local supermarket either. Not every game on the Wii had to use the Wii remote (at all or to its fullest extent i.e. limited use), and not every game should, but lots shoehorned it in because otherwise thatd be seen as a waste of resources. Not because it makes sense but because it's easily discernible. "I have this controller, why aren't you using it?"
James Scott
Banned
A Vita-360 level handheld wouldn't be classified as a super powerful handheld as far as I know. The vita is pretty old and tablets are already reaching that mark.
The issue is building an installbase which would come if the right software is available. Sony threw out a lot of big titles at launch but then that fizzled out hoping 3rd parties would pick up the slack while Nintendo kept investing to make sure the audience grew enough for 3rd parties to keep investing.
Developers for the handheld also have the benefit of reaching the console audience with the NX which is a pretty big win for them if the porting process is as easy as iOS/android (as Nintendo mentioned)
The standards for portable development will increase, but with no other handheld in the works japanese developers would have to choose between NX handheld+console development or investing a lot more to match the expectations of PS4 owners.
Would be admittedly interesting how the japanese market reacts to it.
And clearly, the Vita wasn't even powerful enough for the games people wanted to make on it, given how many had issues with sub-native resolution and/or performance.
Gravity Rush on Vita is a tragedy.
Theanine3D
Member
This isn't accurate if the console really ends up being ARM. Steam games are all x86.
There's a reason you can't run Steam games on Android, despite there being a Steam app for Android. It's not enough just to have Steam running on the thing, or to have the same OS.
MikeE21286
Member
Would love for the NX to carry the high-end-handheld torch that the Vita had (...and will never try again)
Oh, I was really just asking because of the "Vitas failure is completely down to Sonys ineptitude, not the unwilligness of people buying high end portables" part. Didn't mean to imply that a Vita-level handheld can't sell now.
In terms of creating an install base, Nintendo's also in a much better position because they have IPs that have already been selling on handheld for a while. Considering the drastic action they took after they failed to do that with the 3DS, I'm guessing that Nintendo isn't going to rely on low-budget experiments when the NX launches.
As for Japanese developers investing in PS4, there's already been a very intentional effort towards that. I believe it's partly due to Unreal Engine 4's Japanese documentation making console development much easier for them than it was last gen, and partly because they realize that they'll need to hit the PS4 if they want to remain relevant to the rest of the world.
Hero of Legend
Member
Funny enough, Nippon Ichi, who we all know are VERY Sony-centric, actually seem to be at least looking at the NX according to their FY report:
http://nippon1.co.jp/news/pdf/2016/20160513_3.pdf
Even if it's not a definite, that's huge coming from Nippon Ichi.
magnumpy
Member
at first glance I thought the rumors of NX not using an x86 processor were a bit daft, but on further thought it could make sense in a way. if the idea is to have cross compatibility between the handheld and console then they really couldn't use an x86 processor. something lower power would make a lot of sense in that case.
just speculating, I really have no idea what nintendos plans are.
just speculating, I really have no idea what nintendos plans are.
James Scott
Banned
Would be pretty wise to get UE4 support on the console and portable if that's the case. Hope it's already up and running.
Risk Breaker
Member
Nah, I got a Vita at launch for 230 (game and 8GB memory card included), and a New 3DS XL is still 195. I haven't really seen the price of the 3DS go under 170, easily 200 with a game (+ charger). I don't think cost was an issue with the Vita, which just makes it even worse for the 3DS to be so expensive and still have awful hardware.