Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Was she programmed to say "I love you" as she was about to be terminated? Who knows.
That's the brilliance, right? You never know for sure. But you "know what's real"
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Blade Runner 2049 |OT| Do Androids Dream of Electric Boogaloo? [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
- Start date
Was she programmed to say "I love you" as she was about to be terminated? Who knows.
That's the brilliance, right? You never know for sure. But you "know what's real"
She is programed to say what you want to hear. She demonstrates she is very in tune to K's desires. Know whats real and the next scene is billboard Joi tearing down the illusion of the reality of their relationship. K is the mirror of Deckard strongly implying Deckard doesn't know whats real.
Well, the only thing I can say is you really need to watch the movie again since you've missed a few things. They mention numerous times why the world looks the way it does. It's a major part of the plot.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Just got back. Wow. Don't quite know what to say. I still haven't taken it all in. The Rachel callbacks were so bittersweet. Man. What a movie.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Feels like an extremely cynical read on the character.
If that's true, I'm not sure what that says about K either.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I imagined she was gonna hate it heh. While I generally agree with her, I have to digress here as well. I see it this way: All of humanity on Earth is expendable. Children who are given to anyone who asks for one, Replicants who are treated as machines to do dirty work and are less than human despite their abilities that make them superior, the police department that can be easily infiltrated by mega-corporations without consequence, even Deckard is expendable; the group that we are supposed to have empathy for advocate for his assassination.
I think there's something to be said when the most objectified character, Joi, is actually the one that least cares for her well-being, to benefit her apparent love, K, apparently showing the most connection towards the main character (or any character) in the entire movie. And to K, she isn't expendable, she's the most important part of his life.
I freaking loved the bees. Considering we're in the middle of a huge loss of their numbers it says something of such a shitty world that maybe there's a bit of hope for the future. If such delicate species can survive in such aggressive and alienating environment, maybe other things can too. The flower in Rachel's final place of rest symbolizes that. She died giving birth to something that can heal the world.
She is a mass distributed product meant to make lonely people feel companionship.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
The experiences K shared with Joi and the memories he formed of her were real, just as K's own memories and experiences were what mattered in the end, and Roy's before him. None of them had control of their "lives" but then again who does
Cipher Peon
Banned
I just came out of it. Haven't seen the original.
I'm... not quite sure what I think of it. I wasn't confused or bored, just there were very long stretches that just didn't interest me. I didn't care about the world at all and everything to do with the actual Blade Runner stuff didn't capture my imagination.
But when the film starts building up to the miracle child stuff, that was wonderful! I really liked the themes of identity that were thrown into the flames for an ending that surmounted to the fact that Gosling wasn't special in the slightest. It's very... nihilistic in a way that burns me to the very core, because it's essentially the opposite of everything I stand for. But it was engaging, I'll give it that.
I do think that it could have been shorter, though. Yeah, I get the contemplative nature of it all, but for me the interest came during the midpoint onwards so the beginning feels like a drag.
I'm... not quite sure what I think of it. I wasn't confused or bored, just there were very long stretches that just didn't interest me. I didn't care about the world at all and everything to do with the actual Blade Runner stuff didn't capture my imagination.
But when the film starts building up to the miracle child stuff, that was wonderful! I really liked the themes of identity that were thrown into the flames for an ending that surmounted to the fact that Gosling wasn't special in the slightest. It's very... nihilistic in a way that burns me to the very core, because it's essentially the opposite of everything I stand for. But it was engaging, I'll give it that.
I do think that it could have been shorter, though. Yeah, I get the contemplative nature of it all, but for me the interest came during the midpoint onwards so the beginning feels like a drag.
UnemployedVillain
Member
You really should have. Like really. I don't think movie was the best jumping point if you knew nothing about the world of BR before
FreshCakes
Banned
Didnt see this posted, but Villeneuve breaks down the desert scene:
https://youtu.be/S75OKnM_BKU
Anyways, this movie is a fucking masterpiece. Saw this opening day and I still cant stop thinking about this movie.
https://youtu.be/S75OKnM_BKU
Anyways, this movie is a fucking masterpiece. Saw this opening day and I still cant stop thinking about this movie.
SixMachine
Member
And that lonely person is just like her, programmed through memory implants to think he is someone he is not and do things that he has no say in. Replicants are a product themselves and it is sad that K is basically a meatbag version of Joi except they make him kill other replicants. It's only until the illusion is broken that he wasn't the chosen one, he finally does one thing of his own volition, and he dies right after it. I think Joi had her own moment of "going against the programming" when she told K to delete her from the console and destroy her tracking chip, things that go against Wallace's interests and her own self-preservation.
Cipher Peon
Banned
I didn't feel lost, though. So no great loss outside of context that I pretty much got the gist of anyway. I thought they did a fair enough job catching me up to speed (maybe a bit too much with that text dump at the start). And nothing in the world was outlandish enough to not get in the same beat.
I'll watch the original one day, but the reason I saw this was because I have Moviepass and "why not"
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I'm going with intentional callback. The way it was shot is exactly like when they find the derelict ship in Aliens extended cut. And it has the same outline and shape.
I'm sure we will find out in 10 years in a random reddit Ask Me Anything or bluray commentary lol
He is a mass distributed product meant to make wealthy people have access to free slave labour.
Did you miss the scene where there was an entire vault of crystallized spheres of neurons? Replicants are programmed just as much as artificial intelligence is. If the former can break their programming, I don't see why the latter can't.
One alphabet is 4 letters. The other is 2. One container is carbon-based, the other is silicon-based.
That would probably be considered within her programming if it's to make her feel as real as possible to K. There's also the possibility that she is tampered with at some point.
It's never stated or implied they've achieved true 100% sentience on par with a human.
If AI is that advanced, I personally feel there is no point distinguishing whether it's programming or not anymore. As far as I'm concerned, Joi absolutely passes the Turing test.
This movie is even better the second time goddamn. I caught some stuff I missed the first time:
Madame wanted Ks dick. I wasnt paying too close attention to their dialogue at his apartment when she says Were all just looking for something real. What would happen if I finish this?
The hooker telling Joi Ive been inside you. Theres not as much there as you think. That line stings a hell of a lot more once you ponder the possibility of Jois love being fake all along.
Luv has a huge inferiority complex. I made sure to pay close attention to her this time and I kinda feel sorry for her. Shes afraid of the possibility that Wallace can get rid of her whenever she wants. After all, she too isnt the perfect angel he seeks to create. The whole movie shes hellbent on finding this child to prove herself and to give herself worth. Then theres that last line, Im the best one. Im sure if she were to take a baseline test she wouldve failed it too because of how emotionally invested she was in all of this. I really like her now.
The last scene where K is holding his hand out to the snow like he did previously, letting the snow melt in his hand while Stelline is shown at the same time holding her hand out to the fake snow that goes right through her hand. More human than humans. He may have been a replicant the entire time but by the end K definitely became human.
I fucking love this movie.
Madame wanted Ks dick. I wasnt paying too close attention to their dialogue at his apartment when she says Were all just looking for something real. What would happen if I finish this?
The hooker telling Joi Ive been inside you. Theres not as much there as you think. That line stings a hell of a lot more once you ponder the possibility of Jois love being fake all along.
Luv has a huge inferiority complex. I made sure to pay close attention to her this time and I kinda feel sorry for her. Shes afraid of the possibility that Wallace can get rid of her whenever she wants. After all, she too isnt the perfect angel he seeks to create. The whole movie shes hellbent on finding this child to prove herself and to give herself worth. Then theres that last line, Im the best one. Im sure if she were to take a baseline test she wouldve failed it too because of how emotionally invested she was in all of this. I really like her now.
The last scene where K is holding his hand out to the snow like he did previously, letting the snow melt in his hand while Stelline is shown at the same time holding her hand out to the fake snow that goes right through her hand. More human than humans. He may have been a replicant the entire time but by the end K definitely became human.
I fucking love this movie.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Well ... that was something. There's no way WB expected to make their money back, but holy shit was that budget on display.
I fighting sleep a lot in the first half, but I did like it, I can appreciate this, a good amount of was unnecessary (as far as budgetary concerns), but movie is technically brilliant.
The glacial pacing does make this a challenge though. My only problem outside of that is
I fighting sleep a lot in the first half, but I did like it, I can appreciate this, a good amount of was unnecessary (as far as budgetary concerns), but movie is technically brilliant.
The glacial pacing does make this a challenge though. My only problem outside of that is
I feel like this movie tries to rewrite what was a pretty terrible almost one-sided romance between Rachel and Deckard.
And with that the Harrison Ford is a bad parent in a late sequel trilogy comes to an end.
You see, I actually do agree with this statement. I think the ambiguity regarding whether Replicants are truly autonomous (and yes, AI as well) is much more interesting than the definitive answer of "Yes, they are" or "No, they aren't."
Sure, the eye is more metaphorical than anything, it could be anybody's eye. But if you're going to assign it to a character, it makes more narrative sense for Roy than Holden the Blade Runner who's in the movie for three minutes until he's put in an iron lung.
The turing test is a pretty low bar, and replicants are pretty well past it. It would stand to reason that what is essentially another home applicance/toy/app like Joi would be able to do the same. She wouldn't be a very good product if she couldn't pass the turing test. The entire premise of her existence is to be as convincing as possible.
She doesn't fit my definition of being a true AI. Neither do replicants. That makes the philosophical questions a lot more fun.
The ambiguity I think is the point. They've reached a threshold where if you're not sure, does the distinction matter anymore?
In that scene, after realizing it was an illusion, K rips off his 'band aids', and then goes and rescues Deckard. Its the very moment that K becomes free of the shackles that he is in, used by the LAPD, used by the resistance, but finally realizes what he is meant to do, how he gains his humanity is not by special birth or his relationship but instead by self-sacrifice. The line is something like, to die for a good cause, ...
SixMachine
Member
About replicants, the older models under Tyrell had more free will than the current ones in 2049. They had no safeguards and it wasn't until after Nexus 6 that they started even using memory implants. I would say someone like Roy Batty and the Nexus 6 unquestionably was basically almost human on an emotional level, he had emotions, love, sentiments about his experiences, and even self-preservation instinct. The Voight-Kampf test in the first one tried to see if they lacked empathy, because they lacked emotional experience that a person would have (like asking if they would help a turtle and about their mother, something they wouldn't have experienced). But when Rachel came into the picture, who had implanted memory, she basically almost passed it, taking over a hundred questions before he could say she was a replicant. The test in 2049 tried to make sure they had no empathy, and made sure they were a robot. Wallace wanted replicants to go in the opposite direction, and instead of making them more human, he made them more machine. But K breaking his programming basically showed that the new replicants do have similar sentience as the older versions, which basically means they pretty much are indistinguishable from humans if they were let to be and didn't have whatever shackles the corporations put on them emotionally.
Just got out... huge fan of the original.
I went in expecting a sequel of a movie with a blade runner filter on everything.
Instead, I got a fantastic sci-fi thriller, the likes of which we havent seen in a while, that was also whole heartedly set in the blade runner universe.
Bravo. #DennisDoesDune make it happen!
I went in expecting a sequel of a movie with a blade runner filter on everything.
Instead, I got a fantastic sci-fi thriller, the likes of which we havent seen in a while, that was also whole heartedly set in the blade runner universe.
Bravo. #DennisDoesDune make it happen!
Lights and Waves
Member
Did the 4K version of the original go out of print already? I can't find it anywhere in stores. Has it not come out yet? I thought it came out a few weeks ago...
Its hard to find. Came out a while back.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
edit: nm
Lights and Waves
Member
Damn :/
Schopenhauerian
Member
That was an interesting exchange, between Joi and Mariette. There was arguably a hint of hostility/jealousy in the way Joi/Ana de Armas asked Mariette to leave, and given the caustic nature of Mariettes response to Joi (Ive been inside you. Theres not as much there as you think...), it is implied that Mariette does indeed perceive/feel as if she is the target of hostility/jealousy (from Joi).
In the exchange, it seems that Mariette attributes genuine (romantic) ambition to Joi -- a desire on the part of Joi to think of herself as the equal of K -- as it is precisely this type of ambitious self-perception that Mariette attempts to undermine, with that caustic/retaliatory remark (...Theres not as much there as you think...).
ThreePiMatt
Member
Do they have similar sentience, or is K just an abnormality considering he was implanted with real (Stalline's) memories?
Nappuccino
Member
Fast Forward
Member
Very good movie. I'll probably see it against next week. Cannot really do comparisons, as I only see the original (Final Cut) last week, but I would say each has its own strengths, and weaknesses.
But I can see why it's a commercial disappointment.
-It's 3 hours
-Harrison Ford does not show up until the 3rd act
-Misleading trailers
-Slow Pace
-Always been more cult than mainstream IP to begin with
But I can see why it's a commercial disappointment.
-It's 3 hours
-Harrison Ford does not show up until the 3rd act
-Misleading trailers
-Slow Pace
-Always been more cult than mainstream IP to begin with
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
If I recall in the third one it turns out the events of the first movie were actually part of a TV show or something.
Fun fact, her right eye is missing. She cut it out herself, to remove the serial number.
SixMachine
Member
I thought it was implied that there were others who may have believed they were the child too and they played a part of the plan to hide her. Even if K was unique in having Stalline's memory, I think the fact that the replicant resistance exists and has members such as the prostitute, it means they had some current models because they didn't look old like Batista and the one eyed lady. Which means that some others have become aware and are trying to fight back against their programmed oppression. They are suppose to be completely obedient, even going as far as to kill themselves if ordered to like in the 2036 short, but since there are so many trying to resist means that they do have the sentience to try to fight back and the programming isn't working 100%.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Saw it today in IMAX by... myself. No one else in the theater.
Only thing I really didn't like was the music. The overbearing bombast just did not fit for me in many moments, and considering how touching the movie can be at times, and considering the themes of the movie itself, I just don't think the loud, imposing score did it any favors and really detracted from the atmosphere, style, and tone. And, I think this is especially true when the movie used some of the Vangelis stuff.
There's a couple of other stuff, like the resistance fighters, and Leto's character, that I don't care for, but they are small complaints. I wish I loved the movie. There are moments and sequences where the pacing is so slow and the audio mixing so good that I just wish I could live in it.
I'm glad it didn't try to just copy the original Blade Runner and went for something different. This movie has more to do with A.I. Artificial Intelligence than any Ridley Scott film to me.
Edit: Also, I think the marketing for this movie hurt it. I only saw like a teaser trailer, but I saw the posters when walking through theaters and it would have really helped if they didn't tell you Harrison Ford was in it at all.
Only thing I really didn't like was the music. The overbearing bombast just did not fit for me in many moments, and considering how touching the movie can be at times, and considering the themes of the movie itself, I just don't think the loud, imposing score did it any favors and really detracted from the atmosphere, style, and tone. And, I think this is especially true when the movie used some of the Vangelis stuff.
There's a couple of other stuff, like the resistance fighters, and Leto's character, that I don't care for, but they are small complaints. I wish I loved the movie. There are moments and sequences where the pacing is so slow and the audio mixing so good that I just wish I could live in it.
I'm glad it didn't try to just copy the original Blade Runner and went for something different. This movie has more to do with A.I. Artificial Intelligence than any Ridley Scott film to me.
Edit: Also, I think the marketing for this movie hurt it. I only saw like a teaser trailer, but I saw the posters when walking through theaters and it would have really helped if they didn't tell you Harrison Ford was in it at all.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Can someone confirm this? That was also my take. And wasn't that why it showed DNA copies for both a boy and girl in the orphanage, so that all the replicants with her memories could believe they were 'the one' and ultimately get drawn back to the revolution?
Nappuccino
Member
I hope they can figure out a way to make a 90 million dollar sequel. Seems like that range would be way more in line with expectations. Trim off 30 and I bet they could get there.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I'm pretty sure they all have the potential to start disobeying. Think of it like a negative feedback loop in a system where a small mistake can keep propagating and eventually turn into a huge divergence. It's what the baseline test was for. A fully obedient replicant would simply repeat the words/phrases with no hesitation or thought to it. When they start diverging, and there are hesitations, then their obedience programming starts to potentially unravel
Ironically, I loved the score and loved the loudness of it.
One of my (minor) complaints is that the film gave unnecessary exposition at times to help folk that might struggle to follow. It came across as ham-fisted at times, such as K recalling the replicant saying "Have you ever seen a miracle?" after discovering the baby. If people don't recall that scene right away, they will later on when they literally show him saying it again.
Overall I loved the movie and have to give it credit for having long moments of silence, allowing us to absorb the world and the tension.
brianmcdoogle
Member
I also hated the music of Dunkirk and wish there was a version without the soundtrack.
I also agree with you on some of the exposition. Having some phrases repeated as VO or some of the callbacks felt like they were unsure if the audience would follow it.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Yeah agreed on the score. At best it does its job to punctuate (?) a scene, but there's nothing that's immediately distinct or something that really elevates a scene imo.
Forsaken82
Member
I don't really understand how this can be perceived as a negative. Why does a trailer need to spell everything out for you?
I look back on trailers like the one for Terminator: Genesys and wonder if I would have enjoyed it better had I not watched that damn trailer. Knowing the story and the "big twist" completely ruined that movie for me. I can't say the same thing about Blade Runner 2049 which I would argue was in every way superior to the original and a lot of that IMO has to do with a Trailer that provided JUST ENOUGH to get me talking and thinking about it. You have to keep in mind, the trailer was also intended more as fan service while focusing on building a brand new audience that had never even heard of Blade Runner til the trailer came out.
Also... the original wasn't some fast paced action film either... even the Final cut was quite slow. That's just the type of movie it was. It never hurt the original and I don't feel like it hurt this film either.
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