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Otaku USA: As “Geek” Culture Assimilates, “Otaku” Remain Outcasts

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D

daegan

Member
Haven't seen this posted yet, and found it very interesting.

Daryl Surat of Otaku USA points out how anime & manga fandom has been separated off from "geek" culture: http://otakuusamagazine.com/Anime/News1/As-Geek-Culture-Assimilates-Otaku-Remain-Outcasts-7080.aspx

Excerpts:

In the convergent harmony of modern geekdom, “anime and manga” is the “rap and country” part of “I like all music except rap and country.”
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...sales of manga are up, and in 2014 the ONLY type of physical media that saw its sales increase was anime. One Piece holds a Guinness World Record for copies in print. Its latest Japanese volume as of this writing, Volume 78, sold roughly 1.7 million copies in its first week of release alone to break 2015’s previous first-week sales record held by Volume 77. In July, Kodansha announced that 2.5 million copies of Attack on Titan were in print in English alone. [...] Yet such impressive feats merited barely a mention by either the mainstream or “geek” media, the same places that’ll post large headlines trumpeting sales of The Walking Dead or Saga, which sell a fraction of those figures. When the New York Times started to track bestsellers for graphic books in the late 2000s, by request of the American publishers “manga” was given its own separate category … because otherwise manga would dominate the Top 10.
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The number of US anime and manga fans is higher than ever, yet you’d be hard pressed to hear about it. The crown jewel of the “geekdom” crown is the San Diego Comic-Con. In the months leading to it, there are stories galore regarding how quickly it sells out and reaches its capacity of 130,000-150,000 attendees. [...] Yet when more than 90,500 otaku came to Anime Expo mere days before SDCC and in the same region, that wasn’t deemed notable enough to mention. What little acknowledgment of anime conventions that does get made outside of the bubble is limited to, “Hey, check out these photos of girls in revealing outfits!” Indeed, “cosplay” is now considered separate from the fan community that originated the term. The message is clear: anime fans don’t count.
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I can 100% relate to this article, as someone who has been going to conventions for something like 12 years (and I'm not a huge anime fan either, though I have had my moments.) It just feels so rare when there's a major, breakthrough hit that gets everyone's attention in the greater sphere. Cowboy Bebop was that, FLCL almost was; I was shocked that Attack on Titan hasn't been yet. I didn't realize how damaging the separate charts could be for visibility until I read this.
 
O

Ozigizo

Member
tumblr_nqh88sgoMC1qcptc6o1_1280.jpg
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I agree with the article that numerically, anime stuff seems to have a real potency in the marketplace and conventions and events attract tons of people, but comparatively mainstream awareness of those events are lower than more general geek stuff.

I think the title offers a tantalizing clue as to why: geek culture assimilated; anime culture did not, as much. Lots of anime has reached mainstream status (the ubiquity of Dragonball in hip hop culture, the crossover of Studio Ghibli stuff into geek culture, and Pokemon are three examples) but I think part of the reason why anime culture as a whole hasn't is the unwillingness to compromise values and norms to fit in more. Given that the article focuses more on asking why the media aren't covering anime culture, I think that's one of the bigger reasons.
 
C

Chairmanchuck

Member
In my opinion it has to do with the fanbase. I have been to conventions in Germany for over 10 years and a lot of people in this fandom are just obnoxious (and a lot of them use it more like some escape from reality instead of just an entertainment medium).
I never saw this in the fandom of franco-belgian comic, which seems more mature even though it also has comics for children and adults.

A lot of fans I got to know take their fandom too far and try to tell others how great anime/manga are, talk some sentences in japanese, use japanese phrases when talking to you and such things. I remember at my University before my Chinese classes there were japanese classes and literally 50% of the ones attending it were "open" otakus. If there are 20 people, 3 were wearing a cosplay to a university lecture, 3 were in thei visual kei outfit and the other 3 wore anime tshirts or had anime keychains on their badge. Not to mention they always drew deviantartstyle shit during the classes, one teacher there told me. She even told me she thinks its sad that those people reduce japan on this one entertainment medium.
 
S

Stormwatch

Member
Well anime tends to cross the language barrier. Your average Joe can watch Game of Thrones, Star Wars, and the Avengers in their native language. I think people have a hard time adjusting to anime both in language and culture.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
UnemployedVillain said:
Yes, because you can't pull embarrassing scenes from comic books *rolls eyes*
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What is your explanation to the article's central question? If anime is as popular as mainstream geek stuff, why does it not get covered? Why has it not attracted mainstream attention? Why doesn't it have a seat at the table?

I find it pretty hard to believe that the answer is not content and community norms, especially in light of the fact that lots of anime does attract mainstream attention, it's just not associated with anime as a whole.
 
D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
A lot of it is just business. Western properties have inroads to Hollywood and American television to find larger audiences and put out blockbuster funded content.
 
M

Mauricio_Magus

Banned
I've never felt like an Outcast for liking anime, then again I live in Mexico and it might be more accepted as part of the "geek" culture over here.

Sadly, most anime fans over here live in the past or have horrible taste, usually both.


Edit: It also has the whole cultural barrier, the fact that we are NOT the target audience, and to enjoy most anime you have to watch it subbed.
 
I

Imperial Bishop

Banned
When the New York Times started to track bestsellers for graphic books in the late 2000s, by request of the American publishers “manga” was given its own separate category … because otherwise manga would dominate the Top 10.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. I never knew the reason why manga had its own separate bestsellers list.

Kinda wish NYT had stood their ground and keep all graphic novels under one list. It would have helped the U.S. manga industry gain more attention.
 
Sylverstone14

Sylverstone14

Member
Chairmanchuck said:
A lot of fans I got to know take their fandom too far and try to tell others how great anime/manga are, talk some sentences in japanese, use japanese phrases when talking to you and such things. I remember at my University before my Chinese classes there were japanese classes and literally 50% of the ones attending it were "open" otakus. If there are 20 people, 3 were wearing a cosplay to a university lecture, 3 were in thei visual kei outfit and the other 3 wore anime tshirts or had anime keychains on their badge. Not to mention they always drew deviantartstyle shit during the classes, one teacher there told me. She even told me she thinks its sad that those people reduce japan on this one entertainment medium.
Click to expand...

Ah, weeaboos... never a dull moment.
 
M

Mortemis

Banned
a Master Ninja said:
As “GAF” Culture Assimilates, “Anime Avatars” Remain Outcasts
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As it should be.

It's pretty easy to see why, while anime and manga are getting popular, there's always a language barrier. Plus the west is rarely ever the target audience, so you would need to be "in" with the medium to enjoy it. Not saying things that all can enjoy don't pop up like Dragon Ball, but the majority of stuff, especially what's usually popular, rarely fit in.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
dimb said:
A lot of it is just business. Western properties have inroads to Hollywood and American television to find larger audiences and put out blockbuster funded content.
Click to expand...

The article makes this argument, but:
a) Disney got a distribution deal for Ghibli stuff--so clearly they have no problem reaching out when they think the content is there
b) Why wouldn't western firms simply buy promising anime firms, if you accept the article's contention that it'd be good business sense to do so? They have the money. They want to make money. The demand is there.
c) Studios keep commissioning western remakes or adaptations or reboots of famous anime properties.

So studios are aware, they're watching, and they're willing to invest.

Why don't we see more? One possible explanation is content and community.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Mass_Pincup said:
There you go, some good old generalization.
Click to expand...
Mauricio_Magus said:
yep, it's amusing how it's always the same, you can pretty much dismiss any medium or art form by showing crappy examples of them.
Click to expand...

If you accept the article's premise that anime is as popular as general geek culture, that it's good business, and that it's growing, what is your answer to the article's central question? The article makes it very clear that this outcome makes no sense business-wise. And yet it is occurring. Why is it occurring?

The most obvious explanation is content and community. What is your explanation that doesn't involve either?
 
D

daegan

Member
Imperial Bishop said:
lol What?
Click to expand...

They're not bad comparisons. Rap has been hugely influential to culture outside of itself, as anime and manga have influenced western pop culture (and I mean, seriously, there's a rap album called Tetsuo and Youth); Country on the other hand really is super segregated, you can be massively successful in country and not have your name be well-known outside of that sphere. Both have a large focus on their own awards shows and media as opposed to general media (although rap is much more visible in mainstream music reporting.)

Stumpokapow said:
I agree with the article that numerically, anime stuff seems to have a real potency in the marketplace and conventions and events attract tons of people, but comparatively mainstream awareness of those events are lower than more general geek stuff.

I think the title offers a tantalizing clue as to why: geek culture assimilated; anime culture did not, as much. Lots of anime has reached mainstream status (the ubiquity of Dragonball in hip hop culture, the crossover of Studio Ghibli stuff into geek culture, and Pokemon are three examples) but I think part of the reason why anime culture as a whole hasn't is the unwillingness to compromise values and norms to fit in more. Given that the article focuses more on asking why the media aren't covering anime culture, I think that's one of the bigger reasons.
Click to expand...

Thank you for a thoughtful reply.

I've noticed that even though "geek" media doesn't cover events, local mainstream does. Youmacon (my biggest local anime con) gets a decent amount of play on TV news and even enjoyed the cover of our biggest free weekly paper (Metrotimes), but I didn't see really any press badges from outside the anime sphere.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
daegan said:
Thank you for a thoughtful reply.

I've noticed that even though "geek" media doesn't cover events, local mainstream does. Youmacon (my biggest local anime con) gets a decent amount of play on TV news and even enjoyed the cover of our biggest free weekly paper (Metrotimes), but I didn't see really any press badges from outside the anime sphere.
Click to expand...

I think this is probably true, and I've noticed that myself anecdotally. The kinds of news outlets that cover the mere existence of the events do cover anime expos, because factually they're huge. AX is huge in LA, the one in Toronto is huge, they're huge everywhere. But the kind of outlets that would cover the content of these events seem to shy away from anime expos. This to me strengthens the argument that something about the decision to cover it or not is intrinsic to the content itself.
 
S

Suplexer

Member
There is a sub-culture within this sub-culture that is being an Otaku where you are very aware how fucked and awful anime is, yet you still can't escape it. I watch it because why not? Some of it is really cool but most of it is bad enough that my friends and I get some really fucking good laughs out of watching it together.

I watched anime during my formative years, sadly, so it's always stuck with me. I still watch anime, but I hate that because 99% of it is atrocious, my opinion that some of it is great like EVA and JoJo is completely written off by everyone. My girlfriend abhorrently REFUSES to even humor the idea of watching anime. I can't even show her things like EVA and JoJo, because unless you are already exposed to the bad intolerable parts like how EVA sexualizes its characters or Araragi's obsession with Hachikuji in Monogatari, the whole thing is ruined. A lot of anime fans just completely ignore those parts in order to enjoy the good parts, or like me, laugh them off because they are hilariously bad. People who aren't used to it though can't do that and it makes even the greatest anime impenetrable.

It is what it is, because yeah fuck Naruto and all the awful fetish fan-service shit, but it would be sick if people were at least a bit more open to the idea that not every animation that comes out of Japan is hot garbage, entirely at least.
 
N

NoblesseOblige

Banned
I dunno. I enjoy anime and never felt like it made me an outcast. But maybe it's because I recognize some of the problematic parts featured in many anime and don't rush to defend it when it's being pointed out. Only ones I've personally witnessed being treated as social pariahs are the 1000 year old dragon lot.
 
S

Slayven

Member
Anime and Manga is popular, but is it profitable in western market? A big segment of the culture don't believe in paying for shit.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
daegan said:
They're not bad comparisons. Rap has been hugely influential to culture outside of itself, as anime and manga have influenced western pop culture (and I mean, seriously, there's a rap album called Tetsuo and Youth); Country on the other hand really is super segregated, you can be massively successful in country and not have your name be well-known outside of that sphere. Both have a large focus on their own awards shows and media as opposed to general media (although rap is much more visible in mainstream music reporting.)



Thank you for a thoughtful reply.

I've noticed that even though "geek" media doesn't cover events, local mainstream does. Youmacon (my biggest local anime con) gets a decent amount of play on TV news and even enjoyed the cover of our biggest free weekly paper (Metrotimes), but I didn't see really any press badges from outside the anime sphere.
Click to expand...

it's probably big for local media because it's bringing in business for local businesses.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Slayven said:
Anime and Manga is popular, but is it profitable in western market? A big segment of the culture don't believe in paying for shit.
Click to expand...

Despite the massive amount of piracy involved in the distribution and marketing of content, associated merchandise seems to be beaucoup bucks and those are comparatively immune to piracy, as are events.

Edit: I'd also argue that the article sort of embeds the premise that if mainstream media paid more attention, we'd see more people outside "the culture" participating in it casually--so we'd see people with different norms about piracy ethics enter the marketplace as buyers. This seems like a good opportunity for WB or Disney or whoever... (if the content and community issue was resolved)

Alucrid said:
it's probably big for local media because it's bringing in business for local businesses.
Click to expand...

Right. 90,000 people in a convention center over a week is a lot of sandwiches sold across the store, a lot of rental cars gassed up, a lot of hotel rooms rented, etc. Can't ignore that if your focus is impact on the local community.
 
M

Magni

Member
Chairmanchuck said:
In my opinion it has to do with the fanbase. I have been to conventions in Germany for over 10 years and a lot of people in this fandom are just obnoxious (and a lot of them use it more like some escape from reality instead of just an entertainment medium).
I never saw this in the fandom of franco-belgian comic, which seems more mature even though it also has comics for children and adults.

A lot of fans I got to know take their fandom too far and try to tell others how great anime/manga are, talk some sentences in japanese, use japanese phrases when talking to you and such things. I remember at my University before my Chinese classes there were japanese classes and literally 50% of the ones attending it were "open" otakus. If there are 20 people, 3 were wearing a cosplay to a university lecture, 3 were in thei visual kei outfit and the other 3 wore anime tshirts or had anime keychains on their badge. Not to mention they always drew deviantartstyle shit during the classes, one teacher there told me. She even told me she thinks its sad that those people reduce japan on this one entertainment medium.
Click to expand...

I'm so glad my Japanese classes were not like that. I was pretty much the only one in the class who didn't really care for either manga or anime (out of roughly 30 students for the first semester, which dwindled to 8 for the second, and just 2 for the third and fourth), but the others weren't hardcore open otaku either.
 
M

MetroidPrimeRib

Banned
I feel like it has to do a lot with the business model and the fact that people have pirated anime and manga for decades because no alternatives exist/ it was too expensive.

Crunchryoll exists now which is great but I don't think that actually helps the ones making it much, and it still seems like there is a huge cultural barrier that Japanese game developers mostly got over.
 
S

sneakydomo

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
What is your explanation to the article's central question? If anime is as popular as mainstream geek stuff, why does it not get covered? Why has it not attracted mainstream attention? Why doesn't it have a seat at the table?
Click to expand...

Because it is not in English and doesn't pander to an American audience.
 
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