XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
At least until someone complains about a JRPG or Steet Fighter avatar not realizing what it is and lumps it in the "lol animu" bucket, and then all hell breaks loose again. Hehe.
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Otaku USA: As Geek Culture Assimilates, Otaku Remain Outcasts
- Thread starter daegan
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At least until someone complains about a JRPG or Steet Fighter avatar not realizing what it is and lumps it in the "lol animu" bucket, and then all hell breaks loose again. Hehe.
They don't believe in paying the absurdly expensive prices the distribution channels are offering.
The recent success of Crunchyroll and the continued success of published manga volumes, which are traditionally much more in line price-wise with what people in the west expect for that type of content, shows that many not-quite-as-hardcore fans are willing to jump in so long as they don't feel like they're being gouged.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
thanks @god i knew you were real
don't even quote my posts, animeavatar!!! how dare you!!!
i eagerly await future meltdowns over avatars
beyonce_godisreal.gif
I haven't been in a bookstore since Newtype USA shutdown. How deep is the publishing, is it just Shonen jump and a few off books?
Yeah isn't the reason that Moe stuff is poplar in japan is that segment is willing to drop 100 bucks for figure and stuff?
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I think that's a lot of what most people who don't watch Anime though do...that and Naruto and Yugioh.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
It's a pretty specific American problem and since I'm not american I don't think that I'm the best person to answer that.
It's true that it would probably help if localization changed some of the existing pandering in order to broaden the appeal. Though given reactions to that sort of thing in video games they might have a lot of backlash from their existing audience here.
A distribution deal is a long shot from IP ownership. What is the incentive for Disney to push Ghibli stuff? They passed on even putting out certain Ghibli titles, snubbing stuff that didn't have Hayao Miyazaki's name on it. Gkids were the ones doing it as far as I'm aware.
Even holding certain distribution rights doesn't necessarily give complete access to marketing or merchandising material. There can be a missing element to this stuff that doesn't make it to countries outside of Japan.
Buying anime firms isn't necessarily that easy because you enter a foreign market. Anime localization companies are only just starting to get involved with being on the production committee for anime because of the crash in the American anime market in the early 2000s.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I would agree with this. But I don't think its quite as simple as saying that geek culture assimilated, because there are very vocal segments of geek culture that refuse to assimilate, and are very bitter about doing so. I think its sort of a truism now that just because something you like gains popularity doesn't mean you gain popularity, and that bugs a lot of people
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Well people who are into anime are fucking weird. You can't blame people for being creeped out by them. Instead of trying to not self-identify with otaku-dom or even trying to make it seem bigger than it is by nerdily explaining to people who don't give a shit about what otaku means, we need to double-down. If we look at hentai and in public then the world would have no choice but to accept us for who we are instead of making up the worst about us due to ignorance and lack of information.
Lizard men porn subway guy shall show us the way!
Lizard men porn subway guy shall show us the way!
Manga localizations used to be like that. (they even flipped the pages!) What's going on now is kind of recent (maybe started a decade ago)
entremet
Member
My local Barnes and Noble's still has a row dedicated to US localized manga.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
My point exactly. There's no descriptive difference between saying "It hasn't broken through because the culture and the content alienate people" and "It hasn't broken through because baka gaijin are too ubuna for mai waifu", right? The content that's not in English could easily be localized -- except that the primary audience in the western world pushes back at efforts to make content more accessible -- and could be tailored towards a non-NEET audience -- except that as you correctly display, the primary audience would call that pandering and reject it.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Heres a article that might hit on some of the reasons Otaku culture is being shunned.
The great shift in japanes pop culture
http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/
I haven't read most of it but part 5 "The Difficulty of Exporting Marginal Subcultures" might have some answers.
http://neojaponisme.com/2011/12/02/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-five/
"In most countries with growing economies, educated upper-middle class consumers still spearhead the consumer market. They have the most disposable income and the most interest in cultural exchange. And those consumers, whether its Taiwan or the U.K., are the ones most likely to be willing to follow and purchase foreign cultural items.
Currently, however, the most conspicuous Japanese culture of otaku and yankii represents value sets with little connection to affluent consumers elsewhere. Most men around the world are not wracked by such deep status insecurity that they want to live in a world where chesty two-dimensional 12 year-old girls grovel at their feet and call them big brother. The average university student in Paris is likely to read Murakami Haruki and may listen to a Japanese DJ but not wear silky long cocktail dresses or fake eyelashes from a brand created by a 23 year-old former divorcee hostess with two kids. Overseas consumers remain affluent, educated, and open to Japanese culture, but Japans pop culture complex by increasingly catering to marginal groups (or ignoring global tastes, which is another problem altogether) is less likely to create products relevant for them."
The great shift in japanes pop culture
http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/
I haven't read most of it but part 5 "The Difficulty of Exporting Marginal Subcultures" might have some answers.
http://neojaponisme.com/2011/12/02/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-five/
"In most countries with growing economies, educated upper-middle class consumers still spearhead the consumer market. They have the most disposable income and the most interest in cultural exchange. And those consumers, whether its Taiwan or the U.K., are the ones most likely to be willing to follow and purchase foreign cultural items.
Currently, however, the most conspicuous Japanese culture of otaku and yankii represents value sets with little connection to affluent consumers elsewhere. Most men around the world are not wracked by such deep status insecurity that they want to live in a world where chesty two-dimensional 12 year-old girls grovel at their feet and call them big brother. The average university student in Paris is likely to read Murakami Haruki and may listen to a Japanese DJ but not wear silky long cocktail dresses or fake eyelashes from a brand created by a 23 year-old former divorcee hostess with two kids. Overseas consumers remain affluent, educated, and open to Japanese culture, but Japans pop culture complex by increasingly catering to marginal groups (or ignoring global tastes, which is another problem altogether) is less likely to create products relevant for them."
The article covers this a bit, but manga is still massive sales-wise (and someone has to be buying those Aniplex USA releases...)
I'll be the first person to admit my knowledge of comics is severely lacking; I still wonder where the content hang up comes about. If I were to guess, I would say it's the "foreign-ness" of it and not necessarily a quality situation; I think that there are so many titles on shelves that aren't targeted at straight men is another reason. People on GAF and elsewhere like to bring up the creepier fanservice moments in certain titles but that doesnt seem like anything mainstream comics are afraid of with how they've treated women over the years. There's also, of course, underage sexualization but that seems to get more attention from outside than in. Anecdotal but I don't see that stuff as crazy popular (though it does have its fans.)
When I started dating my wife, forever ago, she thought I was weird because we were into similar music and many other things but everyone she had met who was into anime was...not at all like me. After some months, I eventually got her to watch FLCL, which she thought was alright. It's been 11 years; we've watched a lot of Polar Bear's Cafe; we watched Trapeze; and Ghibli stuff gets a lot of play in our house. (And yes, she did watch most of Eva, but that was when we had roommates years ago and we all watched it as a set. She fell asleep on a regular basis lol) She got into Ouran for a while and is super into otome stuff on her iPad and the Vita now. Things change, and sometimes people just need to find what they like - and some people never get into it. I guess what I'm trying to say is try different content
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I think manga distribution also took a similar route, Viz and Jump both offer digital subscription services/manga volumes. Companies have begun adapting to a method to more easier appeal to the West (mainly cheaper and subscription based) but I am not sure how that deal is seen from the Japanese side.
Again, it is hard to get solid documentation on stuff like this by virtue of it being in another language but more people are translating stuff now.
Also I think people have the tendency to compare the sales to other things that naturally will be outselling manga and anime and not on their own terms because they don't have to sell millions to be a success.
Again, it is hard to get solid documentation on stuff like this by virtue of it being in another language but more people are translating stuff now.
Also I think people have the tendency to compare the sales to other things that naturally will be outselling manga and anime and not on their own terms because they don't have to sell millions to be a success.
But fanservice is not some rare thing, its ubiquitous.
I used to love anime and manga but I couldn't stand fanservice, and it got to ridiculous levels.
As has already been mentioned, more mainstream anime and manga from Japan, like Pokemon, Dragon Ball or Ghibli, translates quite well to mainstream geek stuff in the west. So its not merely a cultural thing.
Mushroomer25
Member
I do wonder if we're approaching a moment for anime to genuinely break out into the mainstream. Both Death Note & Ghost in the Shell are getting high-profile Hollywood adaptations, and the adult fanbase for shows like Steven Universe, Adventure Time, and Gravity Falls shows there's a generation of older animation fans hungry for interesting content.
If the rights-owners play their cards right, the profile of the medium could be lifted to contemporary status. There's a chance that the community and its' associated stereotypes could hold it back - but think back on comic & gaming culture 20 years ago. You would assume the 'basement dwelling nerds' would hold it back, but the industry just ended up following the money and made more widely adoptable stuff.
Also anecdotal evidence - feel like I've seen a ton of ads for Crunchyroll in the past year on both podcasts and TV.
If the rights-owners play their cards right, the profile of the medium could be lifted to contemporary status. There's a chance that the community and its' associated stereotypes could hold it back - but think back on comic & gaming culture 20 years ago. You would assume the 'basement dwelling nerds' would hold it back, but the industry just ended up following the money and made more widely adoptable stuff.
Also anecdotal evidence - feel like I've seen a ton of ads for Crunchyroll in the past year on both podcasts and TV.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Is it though? (It's not)
Have you looked at any seasonal charts and seen just how many shows are ecchi? It's like, two a season most of the time.
Well, you had Space Dandy last year and both Funimation and Crunchyroll are gearing up to co produce series. Simuldubbing is probably pretty useful for getting a series more exposure. Who knows.
i mean, if you're thrusting evangelion or monogatari at her, i can see why. just get her to watch polar bear cafe. everyone loves polar bear cafe
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Sorry, what does ecchi mean?
The bold really does hit the nail on the head. I couldn't help but immediately think of how most "censorship" threads on gaming side center on games the board typically describes as "anime" be that completely or in part.
In general, it always feels like criticisms of unsavory elements that, were they excised (or at least somewhat reigned in) would make (insert property) more palatable and appealing for a wider audience, are always met with hostility/defensiveness.
The culture hasn't assimilated and seems rather determined not to.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
What do they watch and like?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Basically sexual depictions without actual displays of genitalia or penetration. In other words a type of fan service.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Ecchi is like cheesecake (I think thats the term? Like pin up girls) stuff that focuses on titillation. It's like softcore stuff.
We had a short conversation in the main anime OT about the term "fanservice" and how its used. Like I think most people use it to refer to titties and such but really it should mean a series like Gundam Build Fighters or Hokuto no Ken Strawberry Flavor which are series that thrive off a fan knowing stuff about the series.
Fanservice I see is "giving the viewer what they want" and that's what a lot of Ecchi series are, they are straight to the point. Well, I guess they also run on the "tease" and many of them censor stuff that can't be aired on TV for the Blu-Ray release. Unless you are Valkyrie Drive, Valkyrie Drive doesn't give a fuck.
Rawr Its Ry
Member
I knew a girl in highschool that was 0% japanese who insisted on using her made up japanese name as her name on facebook for the longest time, she uses her real name now but still has her japanese name in parenthesis
shit is annoying
shit is annoying
Though that could easily turn into a monkey's paw situation. Geek culture in the US went through a lot of growing pains as it got more accessible, and many of the people who thought they wanted that found that they didn't. We've seen a lot of complaints over the years about games and comics becoming too popular and broad, being consumed by jocks and cool people and not just being a place for nerds to escape into, content shifting to appeal to people other than straight white males, "fake geek girls" taking over, etc.
The things that nerds liked got more popular, and nerds didn't.
oh man, i went to crunchyroll just to take a peek. found this description
i realize this isn't all encompassing, but it seems pretty worthless
i mean, there's no reason it can't be both.
Theonik
Member
I don't think it's that simple, Anime for instance is much better integrated in Japan. Yes the consumption of niche material and things like disks and figures which are targeted to small groups of dedicated fans is small, however, mainstream integration of anime is fairly high. There is to an extent an inherent cultural incompatibility with trying to appeal anime to western audiences. Of course one would argue that some western countries do have interest in Japanese culture and those countries have assimilated aspects of them into their culture, one would expect them to be more receptive to anime but this is not always the case. On the flipside however, if you look at France you can see that this is exactly the case.
Again it's not as clearcut. For a start if you look at the owners of many of these properties you will find many western studios have stakes in these enterprises, but another explanation is that Japanese companies are pretty resistant to letting western companies into their closed club. Much of this is airgapped which is what makes the Ghibli-Disney deal very fascinating if you look at how it came to be and its specifics.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I guess so, I just find people using the term to describe ecchi shows or things like Kill la Kill to be a bit goofy. Like yeah, that's the point of the show, essentially.
Stuff like Yoko in Gurenn Lagann I can understand more.
A quick check of AniChart for this season says there are five.
tirkaroKujo
Member
I mean, "Otaku culture" never really hit mainstream until the early 2000s in the USA, wheras most other avenues of geek culture have had decades to cultivate themselves.
There's also the fact that until recently being able to watch anime was a very inconvenient experience. You had to wait years for a publisher to either slap the latest hot anime property on TV (with possible changes for censorship) or release them in expensive DVD box sets. If you lived outside of Japan and wanted to be caught up on all the latest shows, or even old ones, you had pretty much had to resort to piracy, which is a habit the fandom at large will have a hard time kicking.
With anime being far more easily available legally via Hulu, Netflix, Crunchyroll, etc, I predict "Otaku" culture becoming more and more mainstream as time goes on.
Well okay, the other major roadblock is Hollywood. The main reason why western geekdom has become so mainstream as of late is because of all the Hollywood movies. But I wont blame it entirely because Hollywood has genuinely been trying, they're just taking their sweet time.
There's also the fact that until recently being able to watch anime was a very inconvenient experience. You had to wait years for a publisher to either slap the latest hot anime property on TV (with possible changes for censorship) or release them in expensive DVD box sets. If you lived outside of Japan and wanted to be caught up on all the latest shows, or even old ones, you had pretty much had to resort to piracy, which is a habit the fandom at large will have a hard time kicking.
With anime being far more easily available legally via Hulu, Netflix, Crunchyroll, etc, I predict "Otaku" culture becoming more and more mainstream as time goes on.
Well okay, the other major roadblock is Hollywood. The main reason why western geekdom has become so mainstream as of late is because of all the Hollywood movies. But I wont blame it entirely because Hollywood has genuinely been trying, they're just taking their sweet time.
Comic Fans Who Only Read X-Men Spinoffs never fails to crack me up.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Fan service is literally 'servicing the fan' which has a definite sexual connotation. It's really not about being a hobbyist. I mean it's fine if that's how you want to use it in Anime OT, but step foot out of there and the term is pretty unanimously about depictions meant to arouse or titillate the viewer sexually.
flatearthpandas
Member
Perception? Western comics and graphic novels became "cool" while I was in college, just before Marvel really got rolling. Manga, manwha, and small scale comics likje JTHM were all anyone I knew had interacted with, and only on a limited basis, and then suddenly everyone was into superhero stuff. Anime and manga never got that cool vibe going for it. Possibly because some of the fanbase are proudly outspoken about their subculture, undoubtedly also owing to the ease at which the stranger content can be shared and mocked online. The quality of anime-aesthetic console games last gen certainly couldn't have helped things either.
But still, this perception of the content and the community doesn't excuse the lack of coverage even if it does explain it. There are plenty of normal people who still enjoy it and there is still quality content being produced that could be positively exposed to mainstream Western culture. Even if there isn't, there's tons of old content that could still be adapted and could be huge successes in the Western market if done competently. There is still talk of an Akira movie and a GitS movie from Hollywood. Another problem is also that Hollywood has found itself even more spectacularly incapable of adapting eastern content than it is with anything else. For every Departed, there's a Dragonball, Oldboy 2014, Priest, and Godzilla shat on and sent to be justly rejected by critics and audiences alike.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I suppose so, I was thinking series where it is the main focus and not some Light Novel series which commonly feature that. Like Valkyrie Drive and Testament would be ecchi shows in my mind.
Not sure about that since Akira and Ghost in the Shell had success prior
Edit: Not what you meant, misunderstood
To my knowledge, anime/manga IS the primary geek culture in Japan, with live action being less popular.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
What's inherent about it? A work can be changed in localization. And why isn't the reverse true?
Admitting fully that I don't know shit about shit, and I'm just observing stuff as an outsider here, your position seems at odds with the article. Is your premise that otaku remain outcasts and mainstream US media ignores anime conventions despite a robust business case because Japanese companies deliberately make it hard for well-connected western media outlets to get involved, except when they don't make it hard, which explains why Dragonball, Pokemon, and Ghibli had no problem breaking through? I'm not sure I see how the business angle is a coherent response to the dilemma that the article presents.
Like, the article's premise is:
- Anime is popular, really really popular, and has tons of western fans
- Mainstream culture seems to ignore this
And the question is why? The answer being that anime is not actually that popular seems just to sidestep the article's premise.
sneakydomo
Banned
To me at least it is a simple proposition. Americans sees themselves as the center of the cultural universe. Anything outside of that needs to be amazing and also lucky to break into it even momentarily and than will soon be forgotten by the mainstream. It doesn't matter that manga may actually be more popular than Marvel in America currently, to the mainstream press it is at best a novelty and will be covered as such. Or to sum it up in one word, parochialism.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Yeah I suppose so. I just think there could be another term for it. I don't have a massive problem with it.
Not sure. You have stuff like Doraemon and Sazae-san that are cultural landmarks that are relatively unknown here.
There's also Dragon Ball and One Piece which are huge there and semi-big here.
Really? I'd think it was the 90s with Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I think what he means is yeah, there were pretty big hits like Akira, Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll but those were mostly curated. With the advent of Crunchyroll and easier to access torrents the floodgates were opened and the stuff that nobody knew about back then suddenly came to the forefront.
A large part of the mainstreaming of geek culture has been due to the huge success of comic book movies and tv shows, as well as the renewed success of sci fi and fantasy.
There are approximately 10 or more big budget Hollywood movies a year related to sci/fantasy/western comic book superheroes.
There are approximately 0 big budget Hollywood movies a year related to anime/manga.
That's just movies. Every other non-print medium is just as lopsided.
Regardless of its print numbers or how many die hard fans show up at conventions, the fact is that anime/manga is relatively small time when it comes to the media as a whole.
As to why that is, I'd guess partly because It's foreign. Here in America, subtitles are a big turn off for mainstream audiences. Dubbing isn't seen as much better.
There are approximately 10 or more big budget Hollywood movies a year related to sci/fantasy/western comic book superheroes.
There are approximately 0 big budget Hollywood movies a year related to anime/manga.
That's just movies. Every other non-print medium is just as lopsided.
Regardless of its print numbers or how many die hard fans show up at conventions, the fact is that anime/manga is relatively small time when it comes to the media as a whole.
As to why that is, I'd guess partly because It's foreign. Here in America, subtitles are a big turn off for mainstream audiences. Dubbing isn't seen as much better.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
So she's a weeaboo?
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