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Nirolak · Sep 7, 2017

Jason Schreier did an interview with GQ about his new book, but I thought this part was especially interesting.

I can say that, as someone who has looked at game job postings extensively over the years (to find out info about unannounced games), that I often see the same senior positions go unfilled for 6-12+ months (and sometimes notably longer). I've also heard form some higher up publisher people that this is definitely a problem in the industry.

It's been a long time since I've seen any specific stats on this, but I think there was something like over half of game developers leave the industry within their first five years, and some insane number (like 80-90%+) were out by their early 30s. This was quite a few years ago though, so it's hard to dig up or remember exactly.

GQ said:
GQ: Your book talks about how all these games—and most games, really—are made under these extreme conditions and yet so many games come out every year. Do you think that's sustainable?

Jason Schreier: That's the question that I've been asking for years. The short answer is no. The thing that makes it seem most unsustainable is the glut of video games; on Steam every day there are hundreds of new releases that come out, there's no way to filter them all. In the triple-A games world, you're seeing publishers try to adapt, and the ones that aren't adapting are going to fall by the wayside.

Who knows as far as the work and the human cost, whether it's sustainable. There are no real stats on any of this. You can't get stats on people who are burnt out or leave the industry. Nothing like that exists. I hear anecdotally about how it's impossible to find senior leads on games because so many people have just stopped, and so the industry skews towards youth. It's a lot of people who have just joined, or have been working on games for a few years and haven't burnt out yet. I think it's something a lot of people are talking about, but because there are no numbers there's no way of knowing.

Source: https://www.gq.com/story/blood-sweat-and-pixels-jason-schreier

Yohane · Sep 7, 2017

Where can I send my resume?

SlipperyFishes · Sep 7, 2017

Would be good if there was some kind of register for video games development in the major studios (and the smaller ones if they wanted to join) like the Screen Actors Guild - something that's updated yearly and allows tracking of people joining or exiting the industry.

Mushroomer25 · Sep 7, 2017

So you're telling me working people on crunch schedules for months at a time, in an industry with low upward mobility and no residuals on sales... isn't the best way to run things?

I'm just shocked.

Sanic · Sep 7, 2017

It doesn't need to be this way. Burnout is an embedded cultural issue that, while difficult to change I'd imagine, is not inherent to the work being done.

TemplaerDude · Sep 7, 2017

Mushroomer25 said:
So you're telling me working people on crunch schedules for months at a time, in an industry with low upward mobility and no residuals on sales... isn't the best way to run things?

I'm just shocked.

Yeah, but shareholders.

Raylan Targaryen · Sep 7, 2017

Yet the industry won't change, eventually someone will take that position even if it takes a year or two to fill

Hero · Sep 7, 2017

It was only a matter of time until this caught up to publishers/developers as the AAA war continued to escalate. When I was younger I wanted to get into the game industry but once I was in college and heard about the hours required and the fact that teams are so gigantic on AAA games I lost any interest.

Wonder what can be done about it, if anything. Seems like things will only get worse from here.

eXistor · Sep 7, 2017

It seems the industry is just marching forward into the wrong direction, (towards a cliff perhaps) and just staunchly holding on to it. I realy wish they would all just take a few steps back and maybe consider taking another path, but I really doubt it; it's just making too much money with all its bullshit and people keep lapping it up. I have no insider info or even much in the way of intelligence or insight, but I really feel like this is heading in a dangerous direction that's very much hurting the industry, maybe even to a point of no return.

Shari · Sep 7, 2017

Oh look, another videogame dev burnout thread.

We see videogame revenue grow every year and yet this field is still a slave job because "you do what you like". And even when you crunch you end up being lay down because downtime between projects.

Its so egregious that a field like developpment has SO many job opportunities gets to be totally shit as soon as you turn to video game developpment.

As a dev myself I'd love to code games, but not at any price.

_Rob_ · Sep 7, 2017

Make a name for yourself -> make a nest egg -> go independent.

Why stick around in a stressful and unfulfilling environment?

Chalupa Batman · Sep 7, 2017

There is a similar type of burnout in finance; investment bankers tend to leave after 2-3 years of working 70+ hours a week. Their salaries are a lot better though so they are at least financially prepared for the next step.

Squire · Sep 7, 2017

Yohane said:
Where can I send my resume?

You can send it everywhere, but each place is going to want you to have five years experience on three shipped AAA titles, exacerbating the issue.

None of this is even remotely surprising to me.

MadLaughter · Sep 7, 2017

Skimming the title and not reading the OP it makes sense that most devs have given up these careers, knowing that trying to make a game as good as Burnout is impossible.

Real talk though, that's pretty nuts.

KingBroly · Sep 7, 2017

Chalupa Batman said:
There is a similar type of burnout in finance; investment bankers tend to leave after 2-3 years of working 70+ hours a week. Their salaries are a lot better though so they are at least financially prepared for the next step.

heh...70 hours. Try 100.

ilium · Sep 7, 2017

mild shock

The Omega Man · Sep 7, 2017

They should look here on GAF, That's probably MillenialsGAF dreamjob.

jon bones · Sep 7, 2017

senior lead here

i code the most boring stuff in the world and i love it. id never work in games.

Nirolak · Sep 7, 2017

_Rob_ said:
Make a name for yourself -> make a nest egg -> go independent.

Why stick around in a stressful and unfulfilling environment?

Almost all the people who leave a AAA studio go in one of the following directions:
1.) Leaving the game industry.
2.) Going indie.
3.) Working on some kind of post launch service game where they can have a more predictable schedule and not have to hit a specific launch date for retail.

The only time this doesn't happen is when someone is offered some huge promotion by going to another studio, like being a mid-level designer at one studio and becoming creative director at another. That or being fired/laid off due to extenuating situations before they had actually burned out, but that's way rarer now. Publishers can't afford to lay off their staff these days because they need so much.

psyfi · Sep 7, 2017

It really is terrible. I hate the influence of capitalism on gaming.

entremet · Sep 7, 2017

eXistor said:
It seems the industry is just marching forward into the wrong direction, (towards a cliff perhaps) and just staunchly holding on to it. I realy wish they would all just take a few steps back and maybe consider taking another path, but I really doubt it; it's just making too much money with all its bullshit and people keep lapping it up. I have no insider info or even much in the way of intelligence or insight, but I really feel like this is heading in a dangerous direction that's very much hurting the industry, maybe even to a point of no return.

Gamers are rather insatiable though. Look at how delays are seen. And also look at the derision of indies and remasters, which are becoming more important.

ExtinctionEvent · Sep 7, 2017

Sounds like the industry needs some changes, not sustainable.

XiaNaphryz · Sep 7, 2017

I still know a couple folks still in games in senior/executive roles that I worked with in the past when we were still in more junior positions, but a lot of us who would be in senior roles have moved out of games to other things quite a while ago. Hard to pass up better pay and working hours for similar development positions outside of games, especially in places like the SF Bay Area given the cost of living.

Akuun · Sep 7, 2017

deleted

Shari · Sep 7, 2017

Squire said:
You can send it everywhere, but each place is going to want you to have five years experience on three shipped AAA titles, exacerbating the issue.

None of this is even remotely surprising to me.

This is not surprising or even an issue. Turns out you need previous experience for a senior role, go figure. And for a senior role on a big company you need previous experience shipping products for a big company.

The problem is draining the life out of your junior employees to a point where they won't stay in the company to become seniors and in the rare event they decide to push through the hell of infinite crunch they might get fired because someone doesn't want to pay the salaries while not on production phase.

TheRazielim · Sep 7, 2017

Chalupa Batman said:
There is a similar type of burnout in finance; investment bankers tend to leave after 2-3 years of working 70+ hours a week. Their salaries are a lot better though so they are at least financially prepared for the next step.

Yeah but that 2-3 year grind in the bulge bracket IB sets you for the rest of your life.

AcademicSaucer · Sep 7, 2017

Maybe they are going indie.

Mechazawa · Sep 7, 2017

Endless supply of hungry kids who want to make video games means working conditions will perpetually fucking suck until something major happens.

Squire · Sep 7, 2017

psyfi said:
It really is terrible. I hate the influence of capitalism on gaming.

We feel it more than any other creative industry, I think. The capitalist leanings of the audience make it easy to maintain, too.

GHG · Sep 7, 2017

Mechazawa said:
Endless supply of hungry kids who want to make video games means working conditions will perpetually fucking suck until something major happens.

Basically. Until they get burnt out. Then the cycle begins anew.

PoshAlligatorRD · Sep 7, 2017

Yeah, Burnout Paradise was great, but that explains why they haven't made any more since.

Chozoman · Sep 7, 2017

SlipperyFishes said:
Would be good if there was some kind of register for video games development in the major studios (and the smaller ones if they wanted to join) like the Screen Actors Guild - something that's updated yearly and allows tracking of people joining or exiting the industry.

You could try the Game Dev Map site. It helped me find my current position.

Mattenth · Sep 7, 2017

Nirolak said:
It's been a long time since I've seen any specific stats on this, but I think there was something like over half of game developers leave the industry within their first five years, and some insane number (like 80-90%+) were out by their early 30s.

When I started working at Riot, someone in my onboarding class described the gaming industry as "you work twice the hours for half the pay."

Thankfully, Riot wasn't like that and I loved my five years there. Seriously, if anyone considers a career in the game industry, look at Riot. Their mission is to be "the most player-focused game company in the world," and they absolutely mean it. It's just an incredible place to be.

I think outsourcing is starting to put a lot of cost pressure on studios. It's becoming cheaper and cheaper to send development overseas, and if you can manage it well, it's a great option.

Budgets have also shifted more and more towards marketing. When there are 10 games being released every day on Steam and 2-3 major games each week during peak seasons, you have to put in marketing dollars to stand out from the crowd.

It used to be qualified, competent, and talented developers that caused a game to "stand out" and get attention. Now, it's qualified, competent, and talented marketers, and thus the money has shifted.

ClosingADoor · Sep 7, 2017

You'd think after all these years these big publishers would have figured out the timelines, work possible delays and problems into it already, and have everyone on a normal schedule. But for some reason that doesn't happen.

_Rob_ · Sep 7, 2017

Nirolak said:
Almost all the people who leave a AAA studio go in one of the following directions:
1.) Leaving the game industry.
2.) Going indie.
3.) Working on some kind of post launch service game where they can have a more predictable schedule and not have to hit a specific launch date for retail.

The only time this doesn't happen is when someone is offered some huge promotion by going to another studio, like being a mid-level designer at one studio and becoming creative director at another. That or being fired/laid off due to extenuating situations before they had actually burned out, but that's way rarer now. Publishers can't afford to lay off their staff these days because they need so much.

It makes perfect sense. People who work in the creative industries are most often artists; they want to create their art and make a living from it. At the point creating their art becomes a horrible and stressful chore, they quit.

I think it's also the reason a lot of indie dev's I speak to would never want to go AAA (myself included).

UpUpDownDown · Sep 7, 2017

I work in VFX and people are getting wise to becoming "a lead".

The incentives for leads usually suck when you consider the extra responsibilities you take on. All of the poor planning on a project hits them hardest and many feel it's just not worth it.

Don't even get me started on what happens when a show wraps and we don't have an immediate lead position ready to be filed by them.

XiaNaphryz · Sep 7, 2017

UpUpDownDown said:
I work in VFX and people are getting wise to becoming "a lead".

The incentives for leads usually suck when you consider the extra responsibilities you take on. All of the poor planning on a project hits them hardest and many feel it's just not worth it.

Don't even get me started on what happens when a show wraps and we don't have an immediate lead position ready to be filed by them.

Yes, if there's one industry as bad or worse than gaming, it's the motion picture VFX industry.

Nirolak · Sep 7, 2017

Mattenth said:
When I started working at Riot, someone in my onboarding class described the gaming industry as "you work twice the hours for half the pay."

Thankfully, Riot wasn't like that and I loved my five years there. Seriously, if anyone considers a career in the game industry, look at Riot. Their mission is to be "the most player-focused game company in the world," and they absolutely mean it. It's just an incredible place to be.

I think outsourcing is starting to put a lot of cost pressure on studios. It's becoming cheaper and cheaper to send development overseas, and if you can manage it well, it's a great option.

Budgets have also shifted more and more towards marketing. When there are 10 games being released every day on Steam and 2-3 major games each week during peak seasons, you have to put in marketing dollars to stand out from the crowd.

It used to be qualified, competent, and talented developers that caused a game to "stand out" and get attention. Now, it's qualified, competent, and talented marketers, and thus the money has shifted.

Riot is definitely one of the places a lot of AAA developers end up at. We've seen a lot of people from BioWare, Naughty Dog, Bungie, Microsoft, and a lot of other places end up there.

UpUpDownDown · Sep 7, 2017

XiaNaphryz said:
Yes, if there's one industry as bad or worse than gaming, it's the motion picture VFX industry.

Brothers/Sisters in misery we stand together

ramparter · Sep 7, 2017

My manager told me the same thing. (Not games, IT services industry)

JustenP88 · Sep 7, 2017

I'm just gonna be super reductive and blame this on too much chasing of that visual fidelity dragon.

Lower your target platform, make games for the sake of games. At some point, you've got to recognize the writing on the wall and Switch things up.

I'm sorry

AtomicShroom · Sep 7, 2017

You mean that people in their 30's and 40's with families don't feel like working 80-hour weeks?

Sami+ · Sep 7, 2017

The Omega Man said:
They should look here on GAF, That's probably MillenialsGAF dreamjob.

Frankly I think it's become common knowledge at this point. Even as a teenager I decided to can my dreams of developing games one day because the industry is just garbage to work in for the cast majority.

AngryMoth · Sep 7, 2017

Does anyone here have perspective into what game dev culture is like in europe where workers generally have more rights and protections? Is it any better?

Zombie James · Sep 7, 2017

Unionize.

It doesn't seem like any governments in the US are going to regulate fair working conditions any time soon, so I'm surprised I hear absolutely nothing about unionization. The problems with burnout and crunch have been well documented for years, and that goes for a lot of tech industries outside of gaming, too.

Yearsoflurking · Sep 7, 2017

Hmm.. does this account for devs starting their own start ups? Because indie development is growing

Lime · Sep 7, 2017

If only game publishers and companies strived for better working conditions, environments, and much better wages

But they clearly never cared, and have exploited workers for their passion for decades, so I'm not expecting anything. Profits over people and so the world spins around

gattsu · Sep 7, 2017

Spend time with your family that you'll never get back while your children are young

or

Make a game that will be forgotten and depreciate in value faster than your car

Hmmmmmm

Future · Sep 7, 2017

As with everything, you gotta find the right studio and the right culture

The nature of development is venturing in the unknown. Often you don't see what is truly fun until you are deeper into development and have gotten the necessary features to properly make calls. There are smart ways to handle it and go about it, by with large team sizes it can be difficult to move everyone forward together efficiently. Result is lots of crunch to clean things up. Or gigantic team sizes so you can multi task quickly. Or make sequels and iterate less

Nintendo always gets praise for releasing top tier games. But when you look at their content from their major teams, they are very iterative... reusing franchises and themes repeatedly, reusing gameplay concepts, and releasing games with low frequency. When a new IP does come out the first iteration tends to a bIt bare bones (ARMS). Whenever any studio makes a new IP you are entering uncharted territory and it takes forever.

So yeah people are gonna burn out. Especially if they aren't expecting this and don't know what it's like to design and fail and recover. Higher financial incentives would help, but it's a highly iterative job that older people with families probably don't have the time for

jack.... · Sep 7, 2017

I'm a developer and I love video games but I would absolutely never work in the game industry after the horror stories I've heard. Work/life balance is too important.

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