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UK: Arrested for burning a Poppy. Freedom of expression gone?

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dc89

Member
At 9pm last night, with a knock on the door of a 19-year-old man, Kent police hammered another nail into the coffin of free expression in the UK.

Earlier in the day the unnamed man from Aylesham had allegedly posted a photo of a poppy being burned, with a crudely worded (and crudely spelled) caption. He was arrested under the Malicious Communications Act and held in the cells overnight to await questioning.

It is of course just the latest in a succession of police actions against individuals deemed to have caused offence: mocking a footballer as he fights for his life on Twitter; hoping British service personnel would "die and go to hell"; wearing a T-shirt that celebrated the death of two police officers; making sick jokes on Facebook about a missing child, the list goes on. A few months ago, these could have been dismissed as isolated over-reactions or moments of madness by police and judiciary. Not any longer. It is now clear that a new criminal code has been imposed upon us without announcement or debate. It is now a crime to be offensive. We are not sleepwalking into a new totalitarianism – we have woken up to find ourselves tangled in its sheets.

News of the arrest was first announced on Kent police's Twitter feed, and it didn't take long for users to spot the painful irony of their official avatar, which simply says Kent police 101. The number is taken from the non-essential police phone number, but as we all know, Room 101 was where Winston Smith was taken in George Orwell's 1984 to be tortured and eventually persuaded to recant his individual beliefs and fall into line with officially sanctioned viewpoints.

The Orwellian allusion inevitably fed countless suggestions that we are, or are becoming, a police state, a dictatorship, even a fascist society. Such allegations miss the point: they use a 20th century microscope to analyse a 21st century problem. The Orwellian model of tyranny was invariably nailed to political propaganda, and the policing of thought-crime served only to protect and preserve a political elite or ideology. This is not what is happening in modern Britain. The new tyrant is not an oligarch or a chief of secret police, but an amorphous, self-righteous tide of populist opinion that demands conformity to a strict set of moral values. What we are seeing has less to do with the iron heel than with the pitchfork.

Last month in Lancashire, 20-year-old Matthew Woods posted some sick jokes about missing child April Jones. Almost instantly, his name and photo were being circulated with messages asking "who is this sick bastard?" Within hours, dozens of angry people had gathered outside a house that had (wrongly) been identified as his home. He was arrested elsewhere, and two days later imprisoned for 28 days. No charges were brought or investigations made into those who were circulating direct threats against Woods, publishing his supposed address or potentially inciting a riot. Where was the real crime here?

It should go without saying that throughout history, there has rarely been an opinion of value that didn't cause outrage and offence to many. This is not to say there is any ethical value or political merit in any of the cases we've seen, but that is not the point, the precedent has been set. Few seem to appreciate how arbitrary and how terribly dangerous this new tyranny of decency could quickly become.

If Woods's jokes were so offensive, why were no charges brought against the newspapers and other media that reprinted them in full, thereby exposing them to an audience of millions? If yesterday's photo of a burning poppy is so hurtful, why are the police not banging at the door of Sunny Hundal, who instantly reprinted it on Liberal Conspiracy, or any of the thousands of us who have since shared it on social media? If Barry Thew's T-shirt was so obscene, why did Sky News and countless other outlets immediately run a photo of it for everyone to ogle? If the ravings of the "racist tram lady" were so outrageous to public decency, why did millions of us send each other the link?

The truth it is not really the message, not the image, not the words that are being punished in any of these cases, but rather a refusal to conform to a tabloid-esque, lowest common denominator of decency. Our political class, media, police and judiciary all cow to this, because they themselves fear the anger of the mob. In many ways, the new tyranny has less in common with Stalin or Mussolini than with the grassroots fundamentalism, puritanism and vigilantism of the Taliban, transposed to a hi-tech, secular, networked, postmodern society. How tragic that on Remembrance Sunday, when yet another young British serviceman died fighting that very same oppression, we seem willing to surrender to the very same impulses at home.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/12/arrested-poppy-burning-beware-tyranny-decency

Interesting piece in the Guardian. And this has followed on from a series of events which I have emboldened in the article.

What he has done is deplorable, just like the idiot who was photographed urinating on a war memorial that time, but is the right answer putting him in a jail cell?
 

Arksy

Member
It sucks that the country that INVENTED the concept of liberty and exported it to the world has turned its back on it.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
The Malicious Communications Act is all kinds of fucked up.

Hasn't been thought through or how and when to apply it, needs a proper review. The intent is good and there will be some reasons to have it, but it's too open to abuse and being badly misapplied these days.
 

Kabouter

Member
While I strongly oppose the American position on free speech that virtually anything goes, the UK is going way too far on the other hand of things with several of these recent cases. I feel that if you want to restrict what can be said, it should be something that causes a major disruption in society with potentially severe consequences, enough to warrant the restriction. This and other cases cited in the article certainly do not meet that standard.
 
I don't agree with what he did but i disagree more with arresting him!
Give him a telling off about being a moron and upsetting people then hoof him back out on the street.

This country is all kinds of potty at the moment. Bloody crazy.
 

daviyoung

Banned
On one hand the people that do this are idiots and I have no sympathy for what trouble they get into for their idiocy.

On the other hand I hate the precedent this is setting for the future of free speech when it may actually matter.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
The Malicious Communications Act is all kinds of fucked up.

i don't think society is quite ready for the level of communication available to it.

time will burn those old sensibilities away. the present "ban this sick filth" approach is a historic staple of out of touch/opportunistic cunts in parliament colliding head on with new technology, and the precedent is for these things to play themselves out.
 

Chili

Member
There is a delicious amount of irony in the man burning a poppy disrespecting those who fought to defend his right to do so, but being arrested for it anyway.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Muslims Against Crusades were banned as a group, not long after threatening to burn poppies. One of the Choudhary hive actually did so and got arrested. There is a precedent for this nonsense.
 

EndcatOmega

Unconfirmed Member
13.11.12-Steve-Bell-on-te-008.jpg


(Also from the Grauniad)
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
the Malicious Communications Act is obviously being abused here but really, who burns a poppy on remembrance Sunday? what a tosser.
 

NinjaBoiX

Member
I think the deep, personal shame of making jokes about missing little girls or heroic servicemen for the purposes of sordid entertainment should be punishment enough.

But then again, the disgusting morons who would sputter such vile sentiments likely have no conscience to shame.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
The Malicious Communications Act is all kinds of fucked up.

Hasn't been thought through or how and when to apply it, needs a proper review. The intent is good and there will be some reasons to have it, but it's too open to abuse and being badly misapplied these days.

I don't think there's too much wrong with the Malicious Communications Act 1988. A key component of the offence under section 1 is the need to prove intent to cause distress or anxiety, and that's a pretty high burden to prove. In the poppy case I expect it was not so much the burning poppy but the message that went with it that was the problem.

That's different from the other cases which were prosecuted under section 127 of the Telecommunications Act 2003 where apparently intent (or the lack of it) is irrelevant. That's the dangerous one - that's the one that needs to be revisited.
 

BluWacky

Member
What he has done is deplorable, just like the idiot who was photographed urinating on a war memorial that time, but is the right answer putting him in a jail cell?

How do you punish someone to stop them from doing stupid shit again? I don't have an answer for this - I don't think you should put someone in jail for burning a poppy, or even for weeing on a memorial. Nor am I sure that you should be arrested for posting sick jokes. But particularly in the latter case I think it's a bit of a shitty inappropriate thing to do, and there has to be some way to encourage people not to do it - without the full force of the law.

Unfortunately the whole thing is very woolly. I want there to be a line drawn - but I have no idea where you draw it, and what you should do if you "cross" it.
 

NinjaBoiX

Member
I love it when phisheep comes in and drops big, law-shaped truth bombs on a thread! I'm invariably enlightened by his input.
 

Xavien

Member
the Malicious Communications Act is obviously being abused here but really, who burns a poppy on remembrance Sunday? what a tosser.

He may be a tosser, but he shouldn't have been arrested for being one. I can't believe there are people being put in prison for spouting crap on twitter/facebook.

This abuse of power really only started after the london riots, now the police see it as an excuse to "keep order", when its ridiculously over the top.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
I don't think there's too much wrong with the Malicious Communications Act 1988. A key component of the offence under section 1 is the need to prove intent to cause distress or anxiety, and that's a pretty high burden to prove. In the poppy case I expect it was not so much the burning poppy but the message that went with it that was the problem.

That's different from the other cases which were prosecuted under section 127 of the Telecommunications Act 2003 where apparently intent (or the lack of it) is irrelevant. That's the dangerous one - that's the one that needs to be revisited.

Didn't realise there were 2 acts involved, yeah intent is key to these things being something worth acting over. Especially if aimed at a specific individual, or whipping up hatred in general.

I still think we are on very dodgy ground here though, if anything you are giving a tool to people who can whip up hysteria over anything and claim to be offended to the point of someone being arrested. In the Internet age this is far too easy, the law needs to catch up and review all this now society has changed.

And as someone else said burning the symbol of what was given to preserve the freedom to do it is just a tad ironic to be arrested over. He may be a twat but is this worth going against that freedom over? I personally don't think so and is a waste of police time and money, plus giving him the attention he was looking for in the first place.
 

Aegus

Member
How do you punish someone to stop them from doing stupid shit again? I don't have an answer for this - I don't think you should put someone in jail for burning a poppy, or even for weeing on a memorial. Nor am I sure that you should be arrested for posting sick jokes. But particularly in the latter case I think it's a bit of a shitty inappropriate thing to do, and there has to be some way to encourage people not to do it - without the full force of the law.

Unfortunately the whole thing is very woolly. I want there to be a line drawn - but I have no idea where you draw it, and what you should do if you "cross" it.

Ostracise him.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Ostracise him.

Exactly, public opinion would shame him anyway.

All arresting him has done is make him a martyr to a cause, and if it provokes a review of how we are dealing with all these things in the Internet age he might actually become a hero in one sense for it. Because it does need to all be looked at.

Should have just called him a twat and be done with it.
 
While I strongly oppose the American position on free speech that virtually anything goes, the UK is going way too far on the other hand of things with several of these recent cases. I feel that if you want to restrict what can be said, it should be something that causes a major disruption in society with potentially severe consequences, enough to warrant the restriction. This and other cases cited in the article certainly do not meet that standard.

The reason our laws are the way they are is because it's simply too much for one man or group to decide what is and isn't offensive or disruptive.

I don't understand the offense in the op, he posted a picture of the opioid plant? Why is that offensive?
 
The reason our laws are the way they are is because it's simply too much for one man or group to decide what is and isn't offensive or disruptive.

I don't understand the offense in the op, he posted a picture of the opioid plant? Why is that offensive?

It was remembrance day recently, and poppies are the official symbol of that. He was insulting war veterans (particularly Great War vets), basically.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
It was remembrance day recently, and poppies are the official symbol of that. He was insulting war veterans (particularly Great War vets), basically.

It's a fine line from that to arresting people insulting our soldiers currently serving by protesting about a war they don't agree with.

The response to this has been emotionally driven not logically driven.
 

Juicy Bob

Member
Let me know when I'm not allowed to criticise the government or speak out in support of human rights and then I'll be worried about freedom of speech in this country.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Perhaps what most worries me about this case so far (and remember, we've no indication yet that the guy has actually been charged with any offence), is that the police should take it on themselves to announce the arrest on Twitter.

That's arguably prejudicial, certainly strains the idea of innocent-until-proven-guilty, and smacks of self-publicity rather than dispassionate policing.

I don't like that at all.

I don't understand the offense in the op, he posted a picture of the opioid plant? Why is that offensive?

If he committed the offense (which he hasn't yet been charged with remember), then it would be that he sent a communication with the intention of causing distress or anxiety to others. I expect it was the "crudely worded caption" rather than the burning poppy alone that would go to the heart of the offense intended.
 

Aegus

Member
Makes you wonder why BNP members haven't been arrested just on principle with this kind of justification.
 

Toppot

Member
Ridiculous. I almost want to burn one and post it on FB as a protest against it. It is nonsense. How long before we have a Burn A Poppy Day akin to the Draw Muhammad Day to show how stupid and over sensitive people are.

Note: I am very thankful for all the service men and women that fought for our country in the war.
 

Aegus

Member
Time to bring this back?
bVnp7.jpg


10p to throw a tomato and it will sort out the deficit in no time.

50p if I get to throw a pineapple. That'll definitely make him/her reconsider their ways!

Actually thinking about it. Aren't jails being privatised? More jail sentences being handed out = more money?
 

Turnstyle

Member
The irony is that by making a fuss of arresting him, the media inevitably get involved, and more people than ever end up getting offended than would have ever seen the original image.
 
50p if I get to throw a pineapple. That'll definitely make him/her reconsider their ways!

Actually thinking about it. Aren't jails being privatised? More jail sentences being handed out = more money?

That's a whole different kettle of rotten fish.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
The irony is that by making a fuss of arresting him, the media inevitably get involved, and more people than ever end up getting offended than would have ever seen the original image.

Yeah, it basically fuels itself.

Image provokes hysteria in some people, already knowing that hysteria can now be turned into arrest, police have to act because of said hysteria, media reports arrest, more people get hysterical. End result the twat got exactly the attention he wanted, and more people who were offended did get offended than was necessary.

Just wish they'd order a review into communication in the modern age.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
This is one of the things the americans have gotten exactly right.

This "Malicious communications act" really sounds offensive. They should jail it and throw away the key.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
This is one of the things the americans have gotten exactly right.

This "Malicious communications act" really sounds offensive. They should jail it and throw away the key.

I wouldn't say that.

West Boro Baptist Church especially. Exactly right is in the middle of the UK and the US, basically common sense.
 

2MF

Member
This is very bad, in more than one way.

Besides the obvious ways, there's the fact that free speech allow morons to show their true colors to others, which is a very good thing.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
This is very bad, in more than one way.

Besides the obvious ways, there's the fact that free speech allow morons to show their true colors to others, which is a very good thing.

A moron to a moron isn't a moron, he's an inspiration.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
In many ways, the new tyranny has less in common with Stalin or Mussolini than with the grassroots fundamentalism, puritanism and vigilantism of the Taliban, transposed to a hi-tech, secular, networked, postmodern society.
Nailed it right here. You need to know what you're dealing with.
 

SKINNER!

Banned
Let me know when I'm not allowed to criticise the government or speak out in support of human rights and then I'll be worried about freedom of speech in this country.

That's what everyone here is concerned about. We aren't sympathetic with the guy who burned a poppy. I certainly don't give a shit about him. We care more about how arresting this guy (and the others who post shit on twitter/facebook) will slowly turn this country's police force to inevitably arrest people for criticising the government/politicians/royalty etc.
 

Lear

Member
The Malicious Communications Act is all kinds of fucked up.

Hasn't been thought through or how and when to apply it, needs a proper review. The intent is good and there will be some reasons to have it, but it's too open to abuse and being badly misapplied these days.

Though this usage of the Act is hugely problematic, it doesnt seem to be too bad. It was originally intended to cover poison pen letters and the like, and was then updated in 2003 to cover electronic communications, and it seems narrower than s.127 of the Communications Act as the intent requirement is fairly high. Of the spate of ridiculous arrests & charges in the past few months, this is the first one I've seen under the Malicious Communications Act, the rest have been under s.127 of the Communications Act 2003. It's the 2003 Act which really needs to be looked at (the DPP has/is going to issue guidelines to the CPS on its use, but I'm not sure how much that will do).

Edit: Oh, phisheep beat me to it. Never mind. Basically the whole thing is a mess
 
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