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[Beth Cyra]

The problem with Square is that they want to go all out with their budgets. They need to embrace middle tier development.

I believe Nomura's influence has bloated the series budgets.

They can do a modest remake for a profit, but they want to do their crazy polished treatment, which you saw in FFXIII, but didn't translate to a good game. Kitase has also spoken about the FF polish.

What the fuck?

How could you possibly blame Nomura for this shit? His franchise is the one that has been on Handhelds for the past 2 installments. He also pushed for other handheld projects and did art for things like TWEWY.

Money problems can be found by failures like XIV, White Engine, and taking Nomura's team from him when he needs to build a game.

 

[encephalon]

It's feasible. Someone above suggested that it would be more expensive to re-do pre-rendered backgrounds, but I don't know if that's true. Dump the list of pre-rendered backgrounds and get Visual Works to re-recreate them in HD. I don't think it would be more expensive than a full AAA title.

The problem is that this isn't what most people are expecting when they think "remake".

It would mean every map in the game would be intricately, painstakingly detailed. Square would start the game now and release the game in 2030. Its development would be entirely dependent on visual works, creating an even bigger development lag problem than FFXIII had. It would also make the development of the game less flexible.

And what would it even look like. If you were to do something like a classic RE it could work because those games were just so limited and cramped that it fit perfectly. But where would you place the camera in a realistic, Advent Children ver. of FFVII? Above, which lends itself to a more cartoonish style? Character level? In that case, are you comfortable with tank controls in Final Fantasy? How many different camera angles would they have to render for one town? How would a dungeon cease to be completely disorienting? It would be a disaster.

 

[Skilletor]

The problem with Square is that they want to go all out with their budgets. They need to embrace middle tier development.

I believe Nomura's influence has bloated the series budgets.

They can do a modest remake for a profit, but they want to do their crazy polished treatment, which you saw in FFXIII, but didn't translate to a good game. Kitase has also spoken about the FF polish.

What did Nomura do to make games more expensive? Hell, the games he's directed have maybe one or two CG movies at most. The rest of the cutscenes are real time.

I'm SO confused as to what people think that man's role is at SE.

 

[encephalon]

What did Nomura do to make games more expensive? Hell, the games he's directed have maybe one or two CG movies at most. The rest of the cutscenes are real time.

I'm SO confused as to what people think that man's role is at SE.

Punching bag.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Find another game to ruin.

 

[Aeriscloud]

Real FF fans don't want modern Square Enix going anywhere near FF7

This is very true.

 

[CountBlack]

This is all I wanted since I was a little boy.

Pls SQUARE

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

He said something like that years ago at this point. It may have been in a joking context, but I've always believed it.

Even more so after they brought on a Co-Director and the fact he isn't on the FF Quality Group. Seems like to me he is going to finish this off, and then go back to Character Designs, and maybe an opinion here and hter, but leave the heavy lifting to others.

For along time it has seemed like he is mainly concerned with KH, and it makes sense given that was the Ip he built.

I do think he's great as a character designer and I'm a fan of his art.

As for his games, it's hit or miss to be honest. Kingdom Hearts fits right up his talent whereas something more serious like Final Fantasy, I haven't really seen enough to really have an opinion about it other than how bad Advent Children was.

 

[Yaoibot]

I don't know that a retooled VII would hold up so well to modern storytelling standards. The plot is rather simplistic, cliche and riddled with holes, and I suspect SE would screw it up further by throwing Lightning in. I think VIII or IX have easier stories to contemporize (the former more adult and edgy, the latter more fairytalish). There's a lot of nostalgia in everyone, myself included, when reminiscing on VII, and its not necessarily as powerful a narrative as we might like to believe.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Part of FFVII charm is it's balance between cartoon/anime goofiness and seriousness. Remaking FFVII with realistic looking characters undermines the narrative and tone of the game. It's like saying they should remake "Up" but now everything is realistic, realistic CG for everything. It doesn't work, it wasn't designed or structured to work with that aesthetic and it would hurt the film not improve it. You don't need realistic looking characters to tell serious, meaningful narratives. Don't try to put Square pegs in Round holes.

 

[Goddard]

Real FF fans don't want modern Square Enix going anywhere near FF7

This is incredibly unfortunately true. I would die for a remake of FFVII with modern graphics, nothing altered, but I would rather play the PSX version over and over again than risk someone pissing all over my childhood memories.

Fuck it:

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

I don't know that a retooled VII would hold up so well to modern storytelling standards. The plot is rather simplistic, cliche and riddled with holes, and I suspect SE would screw it up further by throwing Lightning in. I think VIII or IX have easier stories to contemporize (the former more adult and edgy, the latter more fairytalish). There's a lot of nostalgia in everyone, myself included, when reminiscing on VII, and its not necessarily as powerful a narrative as we might like to believe.

Seeing FFXIII trilogy, I wouldn't trust today's Square Enix to retool FFVII's story to today's standards.

Maybe that's why it best left untouched. Maybe SE is intimidated by the prospects if remaking this?

It's also going to be a PS4 game which would even be harder and with higher expectations.

 

[pablito]

is it unreasonable that i would legitimately be concerned that lightning would be shoe horned into a ffvii remake somehow? if they can promise that wouldn't happen, then i could go either way on a remake. it's not one of my favorites, so i wouldn't be heartbroken either way - if they never remade it, or if they did and did a bad job.

 

[BocoDragon]

It would mean every map in the game would be intricately, painstakingly detailed. Square would start the game now and release the game in 2030. Its development would be entirely dependent on visual works, creating an even bigger development lag problem than FFXIII had. It would also make the development of the game less flexible.

And what would it even look like. If you were to do something like a classic RE it could work because those games were just so limited and cramped that it fit perfectly. But where would you place the camera in a realistic, Advent Children ver. of FFVII? Above, which lends itself to a more cartoonish style? Character level? In that case, are you comfortable with tank controls in Final Fantasy? How many different camera angles would they have to render for one town? How would a dungeon cease to be completely disorienting? It would be a disaster.

I don't think it's as big of a task as you are saying. First of all this is a route to take specifically to recreate the exact same backgrounds as the original, so there is no drama over camera angles as you are suggesting.

How many pre-rendered backgrounds were there in the original? a few hundred? Crack open the strategy guide and count them... it's not that many. It's basically the exact same work they did in the 90s for multiple games (FFs, Chrono Cross, etc), but they have a talented in house team used to making renders. It's like making a short CG movie, except you're just taking stills.

It's not a "free" way to get a VII remake... but a lesser undertaking than a AAA game with XV level graphics? I'd imagine.

 

[Zoe]

I don't think it's as big of a task as you are saying. First of all this is a route to take specifically to recreate the exact same backgrounds as the original, so there is no drama over camera angles as you are suggesting.

How many pre-rendered backgrounds were there in the original? a few hundred? Crack open the strategy guide and count them... it's not that many. It's basically the exact same work they did in the 90s for multiple games (FFs, Chrono Cross, etc), but they have a talented in house team used to making renders. It's like making a short CG movie, except you're just taking stills.

It's not a "free" way to get a VII remake... but a lesser undertaking than a AAA game with XV level graphics? I'd imagine.

If the recreated the exact same backgrounds though, they'd have to keep the deformed characters. It wouldn't look right with realistically proportioned ones.

 

[Deckard Cain]

There is nothing wrong with FFVII narrative. You can dislike it but narratively it is sound.

 

[Ethranes]

quote me on this, it's totally going to happen

 

[BocoDragon]

If the recreated the exact same backgrounds though, they'd have to keep the deformed characters. It wouldn't look right with realistically proportioned ones.

Is that so? If you took out Cloud and put in Squall, how many elements of the graphics would actually break? Maybe a few doorways here and there.

 

[RedSwirl]

By the way, this same challenge faces remake prospects for FF8, 9, REmake, RE2, RE3, and pretty much any PS1-era game that primarily used pre-rendered assets.

Well, with REmake they could probably re-use all the 3D models (characters and objects) which look decent even today, but those pre-rendered backgrounds are stuck in 640 x 480 for all time. Actually, I wonder if the quality of REmake's backgrounds could be run in real time on today's hardware.

 

[encephalon]

I don't think it's as big of a task as you are saying. First of all this is a route to take specifically to recreate the exact same backgrounds as the original, so there is no drama over camera angles as you are suggesting.

How many pre-rendered backgrounds were there in the original? a few hundred? Crack open the strategy guide and count them... it's not that many. It's basically the exact same work they did in the 90s for multiple games (FFs, Chrono Cross, etc), but they have a talented in house team used to making renders. It's like making a short CG movie, except you're just taking stills.

It's not a "free" way to get a VII remake... but a lesser undertaking than a AAA game with XV level graphics? I'd imagine.

No, they couldn't create the "exact same backgrounds." Then the remake of FFVII would be just as much of a graphical mess as the original. You can't have advent children character models run around realistic church design, then appear atop a super deformed "cute" church i 201X. Everything would have to be redesigned, remapped, redone.

Think about what you're saying. How much time and money do you think it would take Square to make an entire game within a CG movie and think about what kind of CG movies Square-Enix makes.

They would never consider a FFVII remake that wasn't AAA.

 

[The Silver]

is it unreasonable that i would legitimately be concerned that lightning would be shoe horned into a ffvii remake somehow? if they can promise that wouldn't happen, then i could go either way on a remake. it's not one of my favorites, so i wouldn't be heartbroken either way - if they never remade it, or if they did and did a bad job.

Why in the fuck would you guys think they would put in Lightning in any meaningful capacity? The very most they'd do is give one of the girls a DLC Lightning costume.

They would never consider a FFVII remake that wasn't AAA.

People really need to get this through their heads, FF7 remake is go big or go home.

 

[encephalon]

It's worth quoting these images again.

Except it would be a bigger jump. RE1 was already fairly well designed in terms of putting 3D characters on 2D backdrops. FFVII, on the other hand, was a complete mess.

 

[Setsuna]

Why in the fuck would you guys think they would put in Lightning in any meaningful capacity? The very most they'd do is give one of the girls a DLC Lightning costume.

They think that because toriyama was the only one at square enix capable of releasing games that just so happen to be based around lightning

 

[HeelPower]

That world is also considerably smaller and lacked any kind of overworld transport.

what world ? Are you talking FFXII ?

Are you saying that FFXII is smaller than PS1 FFs ?

People really fell for the illusion the world map created.It was nothing but a big empty area to get from point A to B.

 

[encephalon]

Does anyone have a link to thread with the ripped CG backdrops?

 

[Valnen]

However, I would only back it, once they assured me that the remake characters wouldn't suffer the Kpop syndrome. The remake characters should just look like this with a little tweeking here and there.

If they don't go with the Advent Children art style, I'd rather they go with the Kingdom Hearts style with some tweaks.

 

[BocoDragon]

No, they couldn't create the "exact same backgrounds." Then the remake of FFVII would be just as much of a graphical mess as the original. You can't have advent children character models run around realistic church design, then appear atop a super deformed "cute" church i 201X. Everything would have to be redesigned, remapped, redone.

Of course they are completely redoing the modelling from scratch.

But you are over-estimating how much of those CG backgrounds were "super deformed" and cute. I'll give you the church exterior, but most of them were semi-realistic. You'd have to re-proportion some things like doorways but when you're re-creating them anyway, that's not some huge hurdle.

Think about what you're saying. How much time and money do you think it would take Square to make an entire game within a CG movie and think about what kind of CG movies Square-Enix makes.

It's exactly what they did in the 90s in a year or two, so I think you protest too much. Now AAA games take several years. I think it's clear which game would be easier to make... just compare the development cycles for PS1 FFs and PS3 FFs.

It's been done before with REmake.

They would never consider a FFVII remake that wasn't AAA.

I agree with that, but it's a different point. I've said the exact same thing in this thread several times. It's not what the fans or Square Enix mean when they say "remake".

 

[encephalon]

Of course they are completely redoing the modelling from scratch.

But you are over-estimating how much of those CG backgrounds were "super deformed" and cute. I'll give you the church exterior, but most of them were semi-realistic. You'd have to re-proportion some things like doorways but when you're re-creating them anyway, that's not some huge hurdle.




It's exactly what they did in the 90s in a year or two, so I think you protest too much. Now AAA games take several years. I think it's clear which game would be easier to make... just compare the development cycles for PS1 FFs and PS3 FFs.



I agree with that, but it's a different point. I've said the exact same thing in this thread several times. It's not what the fans or Square Enix mean when they say "remake".

Every single town in the game uses a super deformed art aesthetic.

It wouldn't be what they did in the 90s, it would be what they are doing with FFXV. You seem to think it would be something akin to the FFX remaster where they simply redid the prerendered backdrops (very well, I might add). But this wouldn't be that kind of project. That's the point of it being a "remake." To breathe new life into it. To realize a project that they weren't able to realize due to their inexperience and the limitations of the platform.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. You agree with me but you don't think Square means AAA when they say "remake?" Isn't that contradicting yourself?

 

[Father_Brain]

It's happening. He's obviously not going to give any indication as such though so it hardly matters until they're ready to announce something. His comments make sense. It's a huge project that will take a lot of effort, and demand a lot from him personally, in order to ensure the end result is something satisfactory.

Yeah, I'll believe it when it's confirmed.

Given their well-documented struggles last gen, I have a very hard time believing that SE is in any position to simultaneously tackle three AAA console projects internally, on top of new FFXIV content.

 

[A-V-B]

I don't know that a retooled VII would hold up so well to modern storytelling standards. The plot is rather simplistic, cliche and riddled with holes

First of all, there's nothing wrong with a simple plot. A simple plot told well is basically the definition of most great stories. Second, yeah, it's got cliches and stuff, but you know what, it's fun, and it's got emotional moments too. It's good material. Maybe getting assaulted by a horde of naked dudes is something you can tweak if you like, but that's a miniscule atom of the whole story.

 

[Northeastmonk]

One could consider FFVII to be the brainchild in a long history of RPGs. You can only put yourself in his shoes and ask, "Can I recreate everything I did back in 1997 with today's modern graphics?". And I can understand his concerns. You're not only remaking the game, but you're adding so much new content as well. All those buildings would have to be fine tuned to look better than they did before. Which would mean a whole lot more creative talent. Such a shame. I bet if SE did well financially after FF15, this topic could be brought up again. I highly doubt it'll happen though.

 

[BocoDragon]

Every single town in the game uses a super deformed art aesthetic.

I see nothing that wouldn't be smoothed over in the recreation process. Make the houses bigger.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. You agree with me but you don't think Square means AAA when they say "remake?" Isn't that contradicting yourself?

Do you think I'm saying "this is how it should be done" or "this is how it will be done"? I haven't.

I'm responding to other Gaffers ideas of a direct re-rendered remake with the same perspective, gameplay and everything, and arguing, yes it would be far more cost-effective than an AAA FFXV style fantasy.

They're in a catch 22 where a AAA remake is a massive undertaking, certainly bigger than any mainline FF until now, but a AAA remake is the only thing that would please the expectations of the fanbase. They could go this route of a direct-remake (they did it for all the sprite games on PSP and mobile) to avoid this difficulty... I just don't think they will.

 

[A-V-B]

Really, though, isn't the problem that they lost all the original assets used for rendering the backgrounds some years back? You can't just modify stuff. It probably doesn't even exist as high res images.

 

[Zeyphersan]

No one wants this. Square doesn't want this, and if the fans thought about it, they wouldn't want it either. It would literally be like a brand new game, with the same budget and everything, except it wouldn't be a new game. Everything would have to be remade, all work would have to be redone, and the budget would be the same as if they were just making a new mainline FF title.

So just focus on new mainline FF titles.

 

[Dragon]

First of all, there's nothing wrong with a simple plot. A simple plot told well is basically the definition of most great stories. Second, yeah, it's got cliches and stuff, but you know what, it's fun, and it's got emotional moments too. It's good material. Maybe getting assaulted by a horde of naked dudes is something you can tweak if you like, but that's a miniscule atom of the whole story.

Well Bravely Default's simple plot is sleep inducing. So if that's SE's version no thanks. I'll take the ambiguity that people have between Jenova and Sephiroth any day over that dreck.

 

[BocoDragon]

Really, though, isn't the problem that they lost all the original assets used for rendering the backgrounds some years back? You can't just modify stuff. It probably doesn't even exist as high res images.

That is the problem. Even if they had it in higher res, it might be 90s CG ugly and unusable.

There can be no enhanced ports of FFVII... only a remake in some form or another.

 

[Glorified G]

Verendus(insider) said it is already in development

 

[Northeastmonk]

No one wants this. Square doesn't want this, and if the fans thought about it, they wouldn't want it either. It would literally be like a brand new game, with the same budget and everything, except it wouldn't be a new game. Everything would have to be remade, all work would have to be redone, and the budget would be the same as if they were just making a new mainline FF title.

So just focus on new mainline FF titles.

That Tech demo from the original intro made fans want it. Hands down the reason to why it's brought up so much.

 

[Valnen]

Verendus(insider) said it is already in development

I've seen some people claim this. I'm curious whether we're talking a full remake or cell phone port though.

 

[A-V-B]

Well Bravely Default's simple plot is sleep inducing.

I haven't played it so I can't comment, but if it put you to sleep then it might've not been well told. The original Star Wars film is a good example of a well-told simple story.

 

[AkuMifune]

Of course I would love new stuff from Square Enix, but I have no faith in them the same way I have no faith in Capcom for RE or Konami with Silent Hill.

So please, just remake the good ones until you hire someone with a vision again.

 

[Zoe]

what world ? Are you talking FFXII ?

Are you saying that FFXII is smaller than PS1 FFs ?

People really fell for the illusion the world map created.It was nothing but a big empty area to get from point A to B.

Switching characters to a realistic proportion means that world traversal has to be handled differently. FFXII takes place within a country, FFVII spans the globe.

 

[Htown]

I don't really care about playing an FF7 remake myself, but they would have been better off making that game than XIII-2 and XIII-3.

 

[BocoDragon]

That Tech demo from the original intro made fans want it. Hands down the reason to why it's brought up so much.

In some sense they brought it on themselves... but I blame the popularity of VII and the internet echo-chamber.

No one expected an FFVI remake on N64. Or an FFVIII remake on PS2. Or Agni's Philosophy on PS4.

 

[encephalon]

I see nothing that wouldn't be smoothed over in the recreation process. Make the houses bigger.



Do you think I'm saying "this is how it should be done" or "this is how it will be done"? I haven't.

I'm responding to other Gaffers ideas of a direct re-rendered remake with the same perspective, gameplay and everything, and arguing, yes it would be far more cost-effective than an AAA FFXV style fantasy.

They're in a catch 22 where a AAA remake is a massive undertaking, certainly bigger than any mainline FF until now, but a AAA remake is the only thing that would please the expectations of the fanbase. They could go this route of a direct-remake (they did it for all the sprite games on PSP and mobile) to avoid this difficulty... I just don't think they will.

That would look terrible.

What you're suggesting doesn't really sound like an improvement.

 

[Dragon]

I haven't played it so I can't comment, but if it put you to sleep then it might've not been well told. The original Star Wars film is a good example of a well-told simple story.

The problem with BD is more the characters are just awful beyond reckoning. It's like they took every trope of horrible character design and stuffed it into the same game. The original Star Wars film is amazing because the acting and characters are so real and fleshed out and the world is iconic. Not the same middle age steam punk stuff we've been seeing for 20+ years from SE.

 

[A-V-B]

In some sense they brought it on themselves... but I blame the popularity of VII and the internet echo-chamber.

No one expected an FFVI remake on N64. Or an FFVIII remake on PS2. Or Agni's Philosophy on PS4.

Probably because FFVI and FFVIII weren't limited by inexperience with technology. FFVI and FFVIII don't have art styles damaged by that, you know? I always got the impression that the lego dudes weren't optimal solutions, they were just what Square could do at the time.

 

[jiggle]

I've seen some people claim this. I'm curious whether we're talking a full remake or cell phone port though.

he talked about it in regards to next gen consoles

 

[BocoDragon]

That would look terrible.

What you're suggesting doesn't really sound like an improvement.

An HD version of the exact same game doesn't sound like an improvement?

Well... it would be? It's just the same game but shinier.

Whether or not you'd rather have an (for now, impossible) AAA remake is another story. And I'm not suggesting it for any reason except that a AAA remake isn't coming, so would you rather have nothing?

 

[A-V-B]

An HD version of the exact same game doesn't sound like an improvement?

Well... it would be? It's just the same game but shinier.

Whether or not you'd rather have an (for now, impossible) AAA remake is another story. And I'm not suggesting it for any reason except that a AAA remake isn't coming, so would you rather have nothing?

Well, the problem with just redoing it like that is... ok, it's nice to have great quality models to replace the lego blocks, but if you're using the same camera angles and stuff... you guys remember how far away those angles were from the characters, right? The details will be totally lost at that distance. So you'd have to do a bit more straight up remaking.